Bring you new books to the politics and prose community. At any time you can click on the big green button below. We are offering reduced shipping as an incentive with online purchases, 5 tipping. It is a special treat, conversations and partners, author of no justice in the shadow. You can ask the author a question, at the bottom of your screen. You can see the other questions asked tonight, the ones we want to hear her the most or submits go ahead and start asking questions as soon as you have got them. Unlike in person events, we welcome you tonight, we are so happy you are here. In her important new book, no justice in the shadows no justice in the shadows how america criminalizes immigrants, alina das, author, lawyer and professor at nyu school of law show trumps into immigration stance is only the latest of most extreme iteration of the idea of the criminal alien. Joining us in conversation, the immigration reporter for pro publica, and cohost of the podcast welcome. Thank you and good evening to you out there. I wanted to underpin this is a weird situation. Obviously for you not being in dc, also that we are living through a time when there was only one story that matters, and ostensibly we have been talking the last few days, what you and your colleagues have been working on, a logical extension of the works you have been doing in the coronavirus sarah era. One of the things that i really appreciate is in the stories of your client. During a pandemic from the perspective of people you are trying to reach. Thank you for being here, thanks to politics and prose. I really appreciate taking a moment especially during this terrific time. Some of the themes this book covers. I have to say when i started writing the book i never imagined what would come out during the pandemic. The immigration system is looking and feeling which is to say a lot. We have lowlevel expectations for what we can see particularly from the current administration. I would never imagine things would be like this. The themes that i cover in the book are more relevant than ever. With federal immigration agencies, the folks, some in charge of enforcement as well as ppp and border patrol, customs and border protection, seeing a lot of changes happening there now. The way the book is particularly relevant, what im seeing in these cases that i care deeply about being affected by current policies affected by covid19 in this pandemic. The federal government policy is to devalue human life in the name of Public Safety. Something really angers me, my clients have the privilege of working and in the community use, they were living their lives before ice came knocking on their door in the Early Morning hours, those who are dropping the kids off in school when ice would come in in the Public Safety rhetoric in defense of actions in the first place. To see the way we can keep 30,000 people locked up in jail knowing they are at heightened risk, they are contracting a deadly disease. And people lack paperwork, they made a choice for a very bad reason. Require what we need to do that in the first place. The behavior of including many of my clients. Can you talk about that . A 26yearold i had the privilege of an Immigration Lawyer in the bronx center who has been representing him for a number of years. At nyu, in my clinic, to represent and try to get another one. I have to say his case exemplifies how much is wrong with the system. There is a great profile, how he ended up facing completion as part of the pipeline. And he ended up growing up in the bronx with his family. And in the congressional district, an honor student into somebody getting kicked out of school. It didnt take long, juvenile offenses into the pipeline. And he changed it and was ready to move on in the way the Integration Law worked instead of getting that Second Chance that here and he was elected to a new pipeline. That is where he remains today. Today, 995 are government has been locking the men for that long. Five days after he was locked up by ice, was pregnant with their first child. I said the discussion to release him and they refused and that little girl has grown up, just had her second birthday earlier this month. That is what the immigration policies are, to make matters worse, we had a moment the tide would turn earlier this year, advocacy by his family and the community in new york and others Governor Cuomo the royal pardon. In february of this year, in an unarmed robbery. To get out of rikers as a young man, that happened a long time ago and Governor Cuomo listened, we thought that was it. We thought we would go to ice and we have been keeping him locked up and we are going to let him go and they didnt care. And they were going to lock him up without mentioning the fact of the pardon. That is the kind of bureaucracy, that is what we get. He changed his life, not just him but his entire family, his wife and child were suffering because of that. Even today with a pandemic despite our requests for his release he is sitting in jail, the epicenter of the covid19 case, the first in the country that had a positive covid19 case, he remains there. This is what they were going to release. And them and myself over the last several months, shouldnt be this hard and it is far more, a travesty of justice. Guest many cases we talk through, once you start hearing, recognizing the same thing in the history something keeps coming up, and hands, and, and and predominate in the book. The history of accidents where the same system is incurring consequences. Then realize it doesnt necessarily mean to do all of that and tries to fight back. To what extent do you see this as intentional harm, kind of tragic. It depends what actors you are looking at. The point is i am looking at immigration policy approaching this debate in the long way. Part of the reason is you are constantly being pulled in the progressive movement, to realize making sure they can come out of the shadows. What history teaches us to ask, shadows exist in the first place and it is absolutely intense and if you go back into the history of the immigration system. That project is tied up with projects of antiblackness, colonialism, the way we treat the way immigrants get placed in that hierarchy so you see the First Federal law, the choices that are intentional come up during a time they were changing, immigrants were coming in and an economic downturn, the racialized a lot of people are familiar with the chinese exclusion act to being one of the first Immigration Laws going back to that intentional choice but even earlier than that was something i talk about in 1875 which specifically they were testing the waters instead of going out against chinese immigrants, in california we adapted as a way to drag the serious types. This is a constant theme in the book, it starts when immigrants are being associated with the rhetoric. We criminalize there was a time when so the acts we criminalize today. And that is where we start seeing laws that treated these as crimes, people who were, quote, alien have this category that justifies huge Deportation Machinery and that cycles into the rhetoric. Until today it is very intentional. Groups like you mentioned who can step back and pieces of this machinery and recognize thanks to the group of activists, we have a much better understanding for example of the horrors of the foundation of the legal system. There is a much better conversation, by no means perfect but a better conversation today about the unintended consequences of the legal system. And it is gratifying to hear. Sometimes when you push a little further. You can recognize every arrest, every police encounter, charge, conviction to the legal system is racially charged but there is a discriminatory element, in the entirety of the legal system. People assume you have been arrested and you are an immigrant, somebody has to be deported, why not you . The reality is we shouldnt be questioning, we should be asking why are we deporting people, something that again you look back at history for the choice we made during a time we were a lot more open about the fact that other countries were doing that. I admit this is one of the episodes the first time, whether it was tools of support. The extent to which after the policy of deportation arose did they consider the question of the us the same thing that someone cant come here, we can kick you out. Just how much making it more likely, the more aggressive enforcement rather than the initial lawsuit. To talk a little more about the dynamic of criminalization, the idea and rhetoric, that is one of the main engines driving the narrative of your book and the basic 101 level understanding, there used to be an explicit system. Much less than anywhere else in the world, you couldnt get in. The nationality act. It ended up with a lot of people. And did abolish this the system. When we talk about, when you talk in the book about the persistence of the 365, that could be more complicated. It is a different dynamic. The system is based on what we think and assimilate that. The unintentional dynamic. In 1965, in limiting the National Origin quota, at least on its face the Immigration Law should not be based on where people came from and did an amazing job showing how much the National Origin quotas were specifically and defining what that means. There is a whole history of that. And it is a defining feature whether you can get those papers whether you can come here and it is something we feel currently today. Getting rid of those quotas, it is no surprise, here we are. More imprisonment, more exclusion than we ever had previously, the system is flawed. There are very specific forces. And it was a number of organizations, a chance to make it fear. And and and versus what is not. And and my first client. We first started in this war. It is no accident the family came to the United States in the 1970s had he tried to come any earlier, facing barriers, and they are locked up in an immigration jail facing deportation, facing deportation. And as a result including the immigration, created a system that has penalized immigrants in different ways with different threat narratives, in a basis to talk about immigrants. For the most part Many Americans dont use that rhetoric now because we are able to use this language to talk about immigration policy, targeting the same people, we had different laws. And prison walls as well. To commit a little bit of policy on everybody listening. The concept of moral turpitude, usually how important upgrades are in 1920s track. Sure. It is interesting because Immigration Law today has long sections devoted to criminal offenses coming to the us, someone being deported. No one you can be a green card holder and a permanent residency, there is no statute of limitations you had, there you are, 20 years later. Suddenly you are taken into it. It happens every day, a constant part of this system. It is a time involving moral turpitude. After all these years, it is impossible for me to do anything but quote a variety of definitions different agencies have given the terms. Something interesting is it came up, added to Immigration Law in the late 1800s after congress started writing federal Immigration Law for the first time and if convicted of this. What is so interesting is the term found its way in the same time and one of the places it was first emerging, it came out of the back lash, used moral turpitude as a reason to block them from being able to have the right another example of blackness emphasizing the way the government started responding to immigrants as well and the idea was creating a category that was kind of vague, vacancy and petty theft and the kinds of crimes they are targeted for under jim crow laws, we had laws of moral turpitude and people are empowered to decide and in forts different laws. We saw this popping up in Immigration Law. Somebody familiar with the history, a person of privilege, we had a term like that. I dont want someone being here, once again a slow division of our community with that moment but in reality is a way of dividing and conquering, and people of color who are least able to find themselves in the system. When we were talking earlier you dont think this is about the Trump Administration. We are interested, we see more of that. It is easy to imagine that. And i would urge people to who consider themselves part of that movement to adopt that come but on the other hand, theres a lot of kind of, this footprint even granular stuff in there because there are so many points of intersection between the criminal Justice System and the immigration system that ultimately things that a motivated person could adopt the local agenda and make sure their community is doing. There seems to certain extent like your writing for maybe those who have been sensitized to the issue of immigration and the way they might not even when some of the system for set up to begin with. Absolutely. To be honest, im a very privileged to work and live in the bit of a bubble. And i told this kid, my teachers, many organizing groups in new york city like families for freedom, advocacy groups and others they have been saying this for a really long time. We had a moment in the immigrant Rights Movement, a really big moment in 2006 when there was a bill that was proposing penalizing documented status. We saw thousands of people take to the streets in protest and it was a bit of a moment, really rich moment for immigrant rights organizing but also moment where a lot of people were out in the Street Holding signs that said we are not criminals. My good friends at families for freedom and all of his other organizations, people who lost loved ones because someone had a conviction a long time ago, they were like no, that is not the divide we want to be making. Nor is it the divide we want to be making given the fact one has had contact with the legal system. This is not the way we want to divide our people because it will have a disproportionate impact of people of color, poor people and our family members. Since that time, before the time, that was a real watershed moment, organizing groups had been really pushing back and saying if youre part of the immigrant Rights Movement please do not adopt that narrative. Will he come back to hurt us. There were terms of progress. A lot of organizations recognized that work, coming up with more inclusive policies and then trump got elected. It was a horrific thing and people were incredibly scared and this will reaction the people had like living in the home, will i be able to come home and put my kids to bed. The immigrant Rights Movement embrace this notion of inclusiveness like were all need to fight back. I never once thought during that time i need to write a book. What changed for me wasnt actually trump, because as you mentioned if anything he had got more people into the fold come more people who never really thought about immigration policy, didnt realize president obama had deported 3 million people. People were just not aware, suddenlyought because his obvious about what he is doing and why but they realized it was a problem. Wasnt because of p. M. I decided to write this but because i was sitting outside at city hall in new york listening to presentation by members of mayor de blasio of new york city, new york city mayor, numbers of his administration proposing to cut funding or Legal Defense for immigrants, immigrants that certain legal convictions. During the rise of deportation under the Obama Administration, new york city did a wonderful thing and decided to fund the Country First public defender system. It was this incredible achievement that was due to the organizing by incredible groups here in the city to create this funny answer any new yorker basic rights that are federal law does not recognize. The city stepped in and said we will make it universal. And what does our new york city Mayoral Administration do in the air of trump . They make a decision that some people who are deemed Public Safety threats, their old records dont deserve to have a lawyer. I literally sat outside of the City Council Meeting talking to a friend of mine who was also an immigrant rights lawyer for an hour and we just sat there saying its 2017. Why are we having this conversation in new york city . What what we having this convern about why Public Defense is important for everyone . Why certain basic rights that every individual desserts, why its not only harms that individual, it harms the whole community if you allow people to go into deportation proceedings. And why are these, this language about Public Safety, why is this come from some of who is a progressive individual, a person who cares about immigrants, who cares about the criminal legal system . It was at that moment it became dear to me, that we needed to come to a baseline understanding of why dividing immigrants is racist, harmful and it doesnt make us safer. We needed that understanding to include some of the big picture policy ideas that would take a different president to implement but also these really small kind of granular concepts that the city, county, a state cant adopt. Because doing Something Like universal Legal Defense, Funding Community law, immigrant law organizations to provide legal aid to their communities, working with people to stop collaboration between your local government and i. C. E. , these are policies that have been developed and we need to not be rubbing the back. We need to keep pushing them forward. In my solutions tester i do try to outline some of these changes Solutions Chapter that different people come about. To be honest my audience is sorting out the people who believe what trump is doing is right but theyre not the people and trying to reach with this book. Its the people who want to do right by emigrants but still despite our best intentions, are not that kind of good versus bad mentality and are trying to build our immigration system around it and think theyre going to achieve justice with all they do in history shows what were going to do is build a bigger Deportation Machine if we believe there are some people out there from deportation is justified. I would encourage folks to use the app russian button you can see down into the right of the big green button that says buy this book, which you should also click. I will be look at those in the second. Im going to turn on the lights in my apartment because i can see below but when i do that, can you talk a bit about you and your team have had that you want to take a minute to brag about . Thats really hard. We were in collaboration with other organizations, make the road in new york, we were able to get one of our clients out of immigration jail because he was medically vulnerable to covid19 and to get him back family. It felt like like a pretty bign because he was also an individual who was a target of a very pilot i. C. E. Rate in his home, was tased many times, 20 times and they created a medical vulnerability that was not putting his life at risk with covid19. It was a victory because victories with i. C. E. Concentrates to take someone away, we see it happen so quickly but its really hard to find a way to fight that is also victory because the city, i dont mean to be too negative on the city, but we have many people, organizations and communities stood up and fought back because even before the pandemic, isis been a Public Safety risk. I. C. E. And Immigration Enforcement knocking on someones door in the middle of the night and telling them they are the police and asking you to come out and then handcuffing them in snatching the way to joe. Joe. That is a pilot event. One downside in a way of i. C. E. Discontinuing, like the violence is people forget that. It is one of the thing about my book to do is to just remind people that deportation is. We have treated it, normalized it in terms of done a good job of normalizing it in many ways, but it didnt start with him and his been there for long time and people have forgotten. Its like getting an eviction notice, losing a job, didnt divorce, have your kids taken away from you and being sent to a place where you might be persecuted or tortured, all wrapped up in one administrative order that is given to you without the right to counsel and maybe not even by a judge. And we do all those things in the name of a civil legal system, a bureaucracy basically. We do that we dont even question it. I think people can see the harm that deportation does, and makes everyone and say, whether it is the person is got deported or the families they left behind, maybe we will be able have better conversation and move conversation about victories away from saving one person to something i should never happen to him to really changing the system as a whole. People asking questions that i can attribute appropriately. Im going to ask for civil how was the nonviolentviolent paradigm playing out because of covid19 . This is a big problem. Im sure many of you are familiar with this, but obviously even as his been progress in how we talk about problems of the criminal Justice System, theres still the divide when we talk about folks in prison, in jails those who deserve their quoteunquote Second Chance based on whether or not they have committed a violent or nonviolent offense. That problem is always amplified, adding immigration on top of the criminal Justice System amplifies both system. You see the same thing happening in immigration. What are the reasons that bothers many of us who are facing this, this idea of violent versus nonviolent divide, again it ignores the fact violence is wrong and you should be the first person standing up asking prisons and jails like prisons and jails do not solve violence. Pages concentrated and make it worse. They harm the families of people left behind and the great cycles where were never able to move past the harms and we just perpetuate them. Thats by quick talk about violence versus nonviolence. In immigration system were seeing this as well. It still boggles my mind again, over 30,000 people locked up any given night in jails. The numbers have been higher under this administration, 50,000 the only reason it is lower is the trumpet ministry was blocked asylumseekers and come into the country but its with 30,000 people any given night who are locked up in jail. I. C. E. Refuses to release embracing very Public Safety risk. In your statements to the media, they will pick the case of somebody who has a violent conviction on the record. I know you had a great piece from last year where you talk about how trumps favorite line is like the immigrants are coming over the border to kill you. They have this stump speech very down for that and they will highlight that point. I think because of that, obviously i. C. E. Has bought into this sort. Instead of asking doesnt make sense to lock up a person because they lack paperwork in a jail were there at significantly heightened risk of dying because of their paperwork, because it makes them, is at the right thing for us to do under constitution protection . Is at the right thing to do . Or should we be debating oh, no. Alina, could you try and refresh your browser works your screen has frozen. This is where we hoped we do have some Great Questions in the yeah. I am going to email her and make sure everything is okay. Ill be right back. Ill be here, everybody. Sorry about this. Thank you for bearing with us. If you want to plug your north side of things like a podcast it looks like alina there we go. Looks like she is refreshing. My cat is sleeping on the other side of the couch so she hasnt decided to show up yet. To anybody asking, this will be recorded. The recording of this event will be available at this link just a few moments after the broadcast tonight. Even this part . Even this part. Andrea in the jet is asking a great question. Dara, what did you think about the book . Im always moderately embarrassed when i read something that teaches me something. And so, you know, in addition to obviously so many of her stores are grounded in what she is seen through the eyes of her clients and getting these very, the determination to to profile them rather than just talk about the reasons there in the book being their involvement with the criminal and immigration systems. Some of the history in there, there was a think particularly just wasnt something that i had the opportunity to think about. Because if you look at legislative history, you came to see issues once they already been in the public consciousness system. So if you think about what happens before something becomes enough of the National Priority that causes talking about it or even state are talking about it there she is. And social process that has the interplay with the policy. Its always refreshing to kind of rethink both worlds that dont just think politics is what is in National Media but dont think what it is just in the lava. Absolutely. Alina, were just talking about you. Are you getting an echo . No. Okay, good. Sorry about that. I had an issue with my phone because my internet out. I guess this is the way we live these days, the new world. So maybe getting to another question. The nasa wanted to know, one do you address the criminalization of Asylum Seekers by administrator rather than legislative means. Sure. Although certainly if you go back to 19 [inaudible] where the modernday provisions formed. You start to see more of the criminalization of asylumseekers. Even before that, people being locked up and jailed is significant as well as what we evincing for a a long time, which is really the criminalization both through the federal and criminal sense. Thats the thing again i talk in my book tanks in part, the president [inaudible] is going to talk about criminalization of migration itself. People have different understanding. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] compromise to criminalize immigration. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] and weve seen that become more and more recently about the Obama Administration really the Trump Administration has adopted where people are in groups of 70. When i went to observe one of these hearings seen people shuffling through these programs [inaudible] for people who traveled far protection, treated this way. They gave up the very fundamental case that it is designed to protect. Thats just one of the many ways in which [inaudible] our apologies to everyone who is having sound quality issues. Well see what we can do. Sorry. So i met as is her particular organization or website sorry. Should we speedy you are totally fine. Alina, if you potentially have like headphones or like a headset, that might solve the sound problem, but if not, you know, weve only got time for a couple more questions anyway. All right. So sorry. Hold on. So right, so finishing the question. Is her particular organization or website to advise voters nationwide of their deathly a question i get. Sorry. First let me check. Is this better . Yes, so much. Perfect. Sorry about that. The cliff notes on my entire answer were related to operations streamlined, so hopefully you all have a chance to learn more about that if you dont already know about how horrible it is. But sorry. You were asking about organizations . Is or a website that can advise people about, like politicians and immigration standards. The places ive always gone to get the best information about different policies and we people can get involved and fighting back against criminalization include they have a website that has a lot of current campaigns that communities are pursuing, as well as the immigrant Defense Project which has a specialization around criminalization. I definitely like those places as ways to learn more about what communities are asking for. In terms of politicians, you know, we are at a moment now where the field has narrowed and the platforms of our two competitors are not what they should be, but there is room for growth. Well, on one side. And so the r groups right now that are trying to gather and collect the best practices, and what people are hoping, and particularly from the biden camp, what we are hoping that he may adopt. And so the are a couple of different platforms around migrant justice and migrant freedoms that people are advocating for, and so i would look to those, and i know that several they groups come whether its united we dream, and others which is made in coming up with those platforms. In the National ImmigrantJustice Center is another organization that is thought a lot about with the National Platform should look like. So i would recommend going there. The last question for us is, it can enticing to the closing, or kind of, are you aware of other books on immigration you would recommend . What other recommendations would you make for people who want to learn more . Well, there is a book coming this month by John Washington called the dispossessed, and the focus is on asylum which i know is of interest for many people who might be watching. So i definitely recommend that. I just was having a conversation today with erica lee who wrote history of xenophobia called america for americans, i think thats a great book to read. And theres migrating to prison which is specific about abolishing immigration detention, the immigration jail and prison system. Those are some of the books that i would recommend. Usually a wealth of information out there. Hopefully that will create a blueprint for change for future administrations. And, of course, all of your writings. I was telling dara earlier that we regularly quote insight articles in all of our federal lawsuits because she gets information first, so thank you for everything you do to expose what the administration is doin doing. Just trying to keep on top of everything. Thats our job. Thank you both so much for this conversation, and for sticking with it. And thank you, everybody, for staying with us with tonight xo conversation even with the technical difficult. One last question for you both come and that is what i you reading during this time . Im a little bit between books right now. Ive not read any of the trilogy by hillary and about in in like ten days. Thats probably too fast because now i feel like i dont, you know, i want to take a while before starting anything else because it was just really excellent diction work fiction. I got an advanced copy so i can read that now which is great. Sadly, reading a lot of course decisions, good and bad, hoping to see more good over the next few weeks. Absolutely. Thank you both so much. Again, this is really, really excellent and very timely. Given the situation presented especially people exacerbated by these times. And thank you to everybody in our audience again. Your patronage is what letting us bring to the program is whats keeping our doors open. 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