Transcripts For CSPAN2 Robert Gates Exercise Of Power 20240712

Domestic unrest such as recent protests . Should the u. S. Be terminating many of our armscontrol creeks . Even contemplating nuclear testing. Should the names of confederate leaders be removed from u. S. Military bases and the doctors be removed from our Public Places . To address these questions and many more, today we will have a unique conversation between two recent secretaries of defense, doctor robert gates and general james madison. As a bipartisan secretary of defense, secretary robert gates served under president george w. Bush and barack obama. He is the author of a new book, exercise of power, american failure, successes and a new path forward in the postcold war. Doctor cates was an officer in the u. S. Air force and spent 27 years in the cia. He served cia director and became the first career officer in cia history to move from entrylevel employee to head of the agency. Secretary gates served as a member of the National Security Council Staff in four different administrations and 48 president s of both political parties. For his numerous professional contribution, secretary gates was ordered the president ial medal of freedom, nations highest civilian award by president obama. Hes also a threetime recipient of the distinguished intelligence medal, one of the cias most prestigious honors. In conversation with him today, general james mattis, general mattis served as our 26 secretary of defense from 2017 to 2019 and is now the Davies Family english to fellow at Stanford University who heard institution. Over 40 years in the marine corps, starting as an infantry officer. He later served as commander of the u. S. Joint forces command and native supreme allied commander for transformation. General mattis also directed the military operations of more than 200,000 soldiers, sailors, airmen, coast guard and marines and our armed forces across the middle east as commander of the u. S. Central command. He commanded forces in the persian gulf war, the war in afghanistan iraq war. Recently about the president s use of military troops in washington. Please join me now in welcoming doctor robert gates and james mattis for this unique conversation. Thank you, it is a pleasure to be here with the Commonwealth Club, the club thats finding truth for over 100 years. Well recognize doctor cates grew into his leadership role with a background earned. Hes my former boss, predecessor in office and an inspiring role model. He was likened in one recent review is the soldier who rises. In reading your book, one that would be reassured and required reading for president s coming into office, i was struck by you achieving a large part of americas 25 year decline in status and prestige, postcold war president congress to recognize resource and effectively use you call nonmilitary instruments of power. Can you explain this mental barrier and the significance of the title you chose for your book . Thank you for participating in this and thanks for Commonwealth Club for inviting me. The book began with a question in my mind of how the u. S. Had gone from a position supreme power, probably since the roman empire in every dimension of power in 1993 to a country today that had challenges everywhere. I thought about how did that happen . How did we get here . So i began looking at all of the major Foreign Policy challenges weve had since 1993 and thinking about what we had done and what we have not done that contributed to the decline in our role in the world and what i came up with was a set nonmilitary instruments of power that played such an Important Role in our success in the cold war against the soviet union had largely been neglected and withered after the end of the cold war the time when we continued to fund our military, who basically dismantled all of power leverage to strategic medications and more. We can go into that later. As i looked at the situations and challenges from somalia, haiti in 1993 and others, right up to our relationship, it occurred to me we failed, to figure out how to compete with these powers outside of the military realm so the reality is, of the 15 challenges to write about for all purposes, consider 13 to be failures. Next line, in the clutter, the word failures first. There are a couple of successes and they are important and theres to be on those as well but we had a lot of problems during that 27 year period and i would conclude by saying the wars in iraq and afghanistan both began with very quick military victories and the problem that identified whether it was iraq and afghanistan or somalia or haiti or others was that once we achieved military victory, we then changed our mission. We decided to move to trying to bring democracy and reform the government of those countries and thats where we ran into failure. Id like to go more deeply into what you just mentioned, this symphony of power and i took a few notes from your book but could you give a brief overview of the type of instruments you are referring to . Where they might be more applicable perhaps for most likely used in the Military Form of power . They are not played, point out like . What are these instruments . What do you look to to bring into the forefront here . The two primarily course of instruments of power, obviously the military but i would say also cyber. In my opinion, fiber is become the most effective weapon a nation can have because it can accomplish military political and economic harm to ones adversary. Its difficult to identify who perpetrated the attack, a cyber attack, it takes time to figure out attribution and more damage that was done, the more important it was to identify exactly where zeros came from so cyber is a huge player now in a way it has never been before. It can the same mantle or disarm weapons, it can redirect weapons, it can shut them infrastructure in countries so its a very versatile weapon and it doesnt take the kind of enormous expenditure of dollars more money that a Nuclear Enterprise or even a chemical or biological threat would represent. So i think cyber is a very important one and weve been good about developing for our military purposes and i think we have not taken advantage of an in an offensive way with respect to other political or economic targets. Another important instrument is clearly economic measures and these can be both carrots and sticks and the truth is, weve developed the sticks part of the economic instrument he well. Have sanctions on any country that looks at us cross eyed. Its complicated for a lot of companies because we have so many sanctions against so many countries, figuring out how you can do business internationally and they with the u. S. Law and become fulltime enterprise for warriors and accountants in these companies so we got the sticks part of it down pretty well. Tariffs, sanctions and so on. Weve fallen down and where we want had real capability is how do we use economic distances for our economy as an asset . As a carrot to encourage, induce other countries to do what we would like for them to do . Loans and discounts, whether its economic concessions, trade concessions and someone. Theyre very good at, were not so hot at figuring out how we might advantage someone in dealing with us. President clinton president bush were both pretty good africa when they arranged debt relief for a number of African Companies in the early 2000s and that helped african countries but thats a rare example of us using economic measures as an instrument of power. The cold war propaganda, how do we get our message around the world . The chinese developed this to an extraordinary degree. Several years ago, he devoted kid, allocated 7 million for strategic medications network around the world. We did dismantled the United States Information Agency and what we call Public Diplomacy into a corner of the states department. Various elements of our government to strategic medications but theres no coherent strategy, each goes its own way and we also lack the capabilities the chinese have. There are a variety of other instruments that i briefly mentioned, things like intelligence and how we use it with other countries science and technology, our higher education, our culture, use of nationalism, as we watch russia and china interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, we have failed to use their own nationalistic feelings to help build their resistance to what the chinese and russians and others are doing. Religion is an important instrument, we havent thought about it in that way but religion has played a big part in international affairs, particularly since the end of the cold war. All you have to do is look at the role of religion in motivating terrorists to see that it has real power so there are a dozen or more of these instruments and the problem is, we have neither resourced them nor have we figured out a cohesive strategy, a coherent strategy on how to bring them together, as i call it in the book, a symphony where they played together and each strengthens the other and overall, strengthens the hand of the United States in dealing with the rest of the world. Why did they list these other instruments in the company of power if america has the power of intimidation if we are threatened, we need the military and it imperfect world, we need the cia but why havent we summoned the instruments of inspiration that are so strong in america . Whats the reluctance for us with known militaries . Its a tough question to answer. I think part of it is congress has been reluctant to fund these nonmilitary instruments back to the end of the cold war. It was congress that disestablished usia, congress wanted the disestablished national development. President clinton stopped that but still brought diminished by bringing under the state Department Rather than an independent agency. Congress has not followed the state apartment properly, the state department has been starved of resources except for a couple of brief periods during the george w. Bush administration when there was an increase in the number of Foreign Service officers so theres a reluctance on the part of the congress, congress haze development assistance, they consider it a waste of time. I are we spending it here at home rather than other countries . They dont see how that can benefit the u. S. So i think partly, it is a reluctance of congress to fund it and the reluctance, for the most part, on the part of all four administrations to push for such funding, the irony for me is in a time when congress has become more and more resistant to the use of military force overseas and the aftermath in iraq and afghanistan, at the same time, they refused to fund or make more robust nonmilitary assistance to take the place of some of the military activity. Brought up the war in iraq, mentioned earlier the change in what we call oftentimes the department of defense so we go into iraq and you write the book that this happened so often after the cold war, there was a lack of imagination, in the white house and safety, access nongovernment expertise to strengthen nonmilitary capabilities, they seemingly have no appreciation and you go on to say the importance of the private sector and contractors instrument of power, it begs the question, how can we leverage the private sector, obviously we keep the government out of some market things, we dont want our government running but how do we enlist the private sector in enhancing our ability, basically exercised power and go to the nonmilitary aspects, how do we do that . The first thing is to recognize that it actually has something to contribute and then you can figure out how to make it work. One of the things that frustrated all of us in the department of defense, i think all of the iraq and afghan war experience was the relatively few number of civilian experts, here we were engaged in nationbuilding and yet, we had very few civilian experts who were in country and helping make that happen. One of the instruments had some effectiveness in both iraq and afghanistan was something called prevention infrastructure but in the time when we had at the peak, we had 170s thousand troops and 360 civilians and all of those in the entire country of iraq. One of the things i proposed, that got no traction was to go to a particularly one of the things we could provide help with was both the afghan and iraq hes in terms of improving the farming techniques, how they took care of their herds and that kind of thing and because theyre both basically rural companies so i suggested to the state department, why dont you go to our countries land universities . I knew what these universities were doing around the world in terms of their faculties working and they were in insecure situations. When you go to the universities and asked them to help, to partner with us and augment what we are trying to do in these countries . Many of the faculty members were already in those countries so how could we help them and how could we help provide funding and so on . We also had the advantage that the head of the National Association of land grant universities, a man named peter webb and the president of Michigan State university but also the head of usa be under president reagan. Theres a guy who knew what we needed to do and could have galvanized the university to be a powerful partner for us. Nothing ever happened. Similarly, i think where we can use the private sector or where we can partner with the private sector is in figuring out how we are going to counter chinas initiative. This trillion Dollar Program of infrastructure, building ports and airports and highways sports arenas and so on in most places around the world. If we could somehow, we cant compete with the chinese and the banks and so on can find the cash to fund these projects our economy and our government just doesnt have that. They invested all over the world. How can they partner with private companies and incentivize them to invest in some of these developing countries and bring jobs, and Environmental Concerns in a way that they will settle these countries with projects the end up being use less. We dont really do much in the way of trying to incentivize companies it is a resource that we could make better use of. We have all of these enormous numbers of churches and charities and others that do projects around the world whether it is in turn stops of health and getting rid of diseases in the work of the Gates Foundation and a number of others they often dont want much to do with the government but if we could augment their activities and work in partnership with them how can we Work Together and frankly there just isnt much done to try to move down that road. These are just three examples of where i think we havent been very imaginative in terms of how we can leverage our great strengths and translate that into efforts. What i would say is shaping the International Environment in a way that serves our national interest. We dont need to be altogether in these efforts. Its the responsibility of the president and the government to advance american interests and protect american interests around the world. That means you have to shake the International Environment and these are the tools that you can use to shape the International Environment. We had tried on many occasions not very imaginatively or successfully. We had tried to help them gain peace and stability. One of the successes that one worked. Why did that one work over a dozen failures. It was a success. It was a success under multiple president s. By the late 1990s columbia was on the verge of becoming a narco state a criminal state the insurgency was on the verge of being able to take control of the country in controlling and then defeating the fark was first of all we have very strong partners in columbia. A very strong person. He was an honest person. And he was determined to defeat them. We started with a president who was committed to democratic principle and the rule of law and who was determined to lead this fight at considerable risk to himself. A number of assassination attempts. The second thing that helped us it was was already some basic institutions. We could help strengthen those institutions inside columbia that included both the police and the military but also the judicial system and over the course of the colombian partnership the Justice Department trained some 40,000 judges in columbia. I actually give credit to them it has limited the number of americans in columbia at any given time to help the government. They limited us to 400 military people and 400 contractors. It rose to 800 military and 800 contractors but that was it. That meant the colombians have a fight the fight themselves and our role had to be limited to supporting them and training them and helping them become better at curing the fight. We could not take over at the enterprise because of the limits that the congress put on them we were there in support of the colombian government and that was another reason for success. It was up to the colombians to solve the problems. We were not cannot roll it. Another factor was that this plan support bipartisan support in congress and was funded over a. Of about ten years or more by three successive president s. With the time to make things work. The cost for about 10 billion over a ten to 12 your time we helped the colombians put down what was needed. It was sold as being counter narcotics. They were trying to limit the amount of cocaine back in the 80s and 90s. We try to bring cultural and political change to the country to make it more like us to bring democratic principles and so on. And without realizing that we were trying to change in the case of iraq and afghanistan for example thousands of years of history and our own democracy revolved over time. We are still facing problems created at the beginning of the United States with the race issues that we are dealing with in the United States today. We still have it in perfect democracy. Thinking that we can bring this two other countries i think it is one reason why we had been involved in the long lasting wars and after iraq and afghanistan. One of my favorite quotes is from Winston Churchill in late 1944 he was approached about overthrowing the dictatorship that was running greece at the time. It was very supportive of what the allies were trying to accomplish. In beating the nazis. They wanted him to install a democratic government. And his response was democracy was not a harlot to be picked up on the street. At the point of a tommy gun. I think the principal still exist. You cant force a country to build a democracy. Iraq has a very rudimentary democracy they are probably the only democratic Arab Government in the entire middle east. The cost has been extraordinarily high. And in a lot of the iraqis do not believe that the government serves their interest particularly the kurds and the sunnis. There is a long very tough for her road ahead for iraq. A big part of the failures in these countries was trying to bring social, cultural and political change basically using the United States military. I think our role should be to encourage democracy and provide people the tools as we did at the colombians and the training and encourage them to move towards democracy but the notion that we can force it and bring it about overnight i think it contributed to several of the failures during this time. The other failures was a lack of imagination in terms of using the non military instruments. In just being too ambitious. I argued against our intervention because i did not see where we have any national interest. You had two quotes that kind of highlight this about americas role in the world one, when they make the world safe for democracy and in the words of John Quincy Adams. Only of their own democracy. How do you confront events in the world that may not be vital interest but what is americas role as we watch the young streets of hong kong some are summer trying to bring about democracy and of course there is autocrats around the world who say not on my watch. Where does america go forward and when do we go forward using the symphony of power. And what does it look like. They have another quote that came out of the same document we ought not go abroad in the search of monsters to destroy. We ought not go looking for trouble. I think wilson and John Quincy Adams have to coexist. From the beginning of our republic we have seen ourselves as the city on the hill as an example for the rest of the world to follow and as part of our Foreign Policy to do all we can to advance the interest of democracy and reform a broad and human and political lives. When i draw the line is in using the military to make that happen. You cannot force a country into democracy these institutions had to be developed and one of the lines that we all used was having one election is not some non mess with bringing that to the country. And the role we can play as helping countries develop those institutions and this is where the civilian part of these instruments a power that we talk about is so important. It is our people helping them develop their own institutions. A number of private spaces. Of the nongovernmental organizations in the 1990s to try to encourage the development of Democratic Institutions and the rule of law and the two thousands essentially eliminated the ability of all of those to work in russia at some point there were thousands and thousands of these and now there are just a handful. Same thing in china. I think we can use a variety of tools that are intelligence capabilities. The cia action. Plays a bigger role in big role in the success of solidarity. There were three institutions that supported solidarity all working independently. The cia and the American Labor union we have these instruments that we can use to encourage those trying to bring democracy to their own country in to help them strengthen their own institutions. Its us helping them not as us trying to force it on them. When you look at chinas advantage is you notice some of the state run economy and what they can do with money going into certain places. And developing some degree of control over some sovereign decision. But do you think the endurance to stricter moral standards actually weakens us in this competition is going on that is going on between the china model its hard to believe they would practice a kinder gentler model. Are we weakened by take it a more moral stance as we look at the role in the world. Its basically by your allies. Shoulder your way in. Whether it means diplomatic or economic. Or even moral sovereignty. Where do we stand in this competition. We all know that america as much as we love it and is much as we admire it and believe in it. Its unique in the history of the world it still flawed. We are seeing the results of that. We do stand for some things its not by accident that on tenements scare stare. They have the statue of the goddess of liberty. It is not an accident that the hong kong processors are waving American Flags. Its not an accident that during the pushback just a few months ago after they shut down the airline. They have painted an American Flag on the steps of one of their schools. The rest of the world knows we are flawed but were also the only country in the world to consistently try to get better. We know what we believe in. And we work every day at trying to make our actions coincide with our leaf. We have to address our problems here at home. We do need to be a model. Our politics are paralyzed. We cannot tackle any of the big problems that our country faces whether its immigration or education. We still have to battle racial injustice. But we are trying to fix these things and i think other countries recognize that. As long as we continue to profess our ideals. And help them create democracies i think our ideology if you will is still to be admired around the world. The truth is i think it is tarnished. The 20082009 economic crisis in this country undermines the sentiment around the world that the new economic model was one that they wanted to emulate. The polarization has been with us since the very beginning of the republic. Its the names that they got in. With the political campaigns. It is a paralysis. In the war on each other for all practical purposes. Everybody seemed to forget the only thing that makes the american the system work is compromised. I think right now she gets paid to all of these problems that we head at home. He is our getting to the rest of the world. Look at the chinese model. We are willing to help build a modern infrastructure in there. And we get things done. Our model is the one that we should look too. Maybe their approach is better than the american approach. Our ideology and liberal democracy. We have a lot of repair work to do here at home. Most of the people in the world with human and political rights. That is our ace in the hole if you well. This are right now we have a competition in the world as a point to go on for quite a while. As old as democracy itself. The competition my view is communism is as dead as a doornail. It was probably a handful here in china. It has been historical loops. We havent defeated it twice in the 20th century. They figure out how to move forward as a country. That is a very long answer. It is an asset for us in the world not a liability. What i learn most about the country and what we represent to others. Ive have dirt poor villages and ministers and kings question me on how does america do it. No matter how bad is something gets we learn something from it. We roll up our sleeves and they do it. We have some young people on. We have some young people watching. As they watch whats going on in washington dc someone approached me why should they go into government. And yet you when and not for one to her in the air force. You stuck with it through good times and bad. What can you say it to the young people watching today about Government Service also the noble work of building a country. We are still building it. What you say to young people who say why should i follow dr. Gates and put my life lifework into the country. At the end of your life you dont wanna look back at the end of your life and realize you only lived for yourself. The only way to have a full life is to have and must have some measure of Public Service in it. We get focused on her own time. And believe me i joined the cia in 1966. I lived through watergate i used to tell people that joining the National Security council at that time was like signing up as a deckhand. It went through watergate. All of the challenges of the 70s and more i think youd had to believe in what we stand for as a country and now you can play a part in making us better. No matter how jaded or tough. Most Public Servants are in their heart of hearts idealistic and romantic. We believe we can make the country in the world a better place. The only place like you can serve as at the federal level. And recognition. You do have to dont have to go to work for cia. Although i hope you do. You can work in your local community. Public service and help your fellow citizens. Their rights but you never talk about our peoples obligations as citizens. They put his or her life at risk for her country. There is a does extraordinary degree in volunteerism. It is the Largest University in the country. I had been National President of the boy scouts. And the one thing i see is the idealism. And the willingness to step up and serve. They stop their volunteerism. And get on with her life. I noticed in my hometown. And most of our food banks are run by volunteers. They have the time. And with covid19 keeping most of them home there now out of school. They are volunteering to come in. We see that in the young people. A comment by the world war ii marine country doesnt have to be perfect to be worth fighting for. We need people to come in and fight for it. And the city council. Like you say. It doesnt have to be on a higher level. One of them has to do with the u. S. Military are we in danger of the military being used at that to of it intimidation. What are your thoughts on that. On the concern that is not unique to the one question at all. With the strength of the reaction. To the events on Lafayette Square. With the joint use of staff. I had worked for eight president s and every single one of them loves to use the military as a prop. Its about the only institution in america that still has broad bipartisan respect and support. It also to be that backdrop. I think what happened with the Lafayette Square well actually have a longterm benefit it led the policy for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And knowledge meant that it was nothing not the right thing to do. In all fairness i think they did not know what they were get a do. They were kinda used by the white house. I think the pushback against the politicization of the military and the re assertion of reinsertion of the importance of the military has been very important and a reminder to everyone about that bright red line. Im not getting involved in partisan politics. One of the reasons why i oppose the use of the insurrection act that allows the president to allow regular military troops the regular army and the National Guard. It is taught basically to do one thing the National Guard has many purchases. In another help in the national disaster. They are also trained in crowd control. They have good relationships with law enforcement. They have to take off that uniform and go back to work the next day. Dealing with the people that they may have been facing and demonstration. Theyve a different approach. I didnt see anything and Lafayette Square. In any of the other things that take place. There was no need for the regular troops. With the guard in the regular army. Once in a while you get into a situation like this and it reminds you of some principles. And maybe cooler heads prevail and we have another question coming in. It goes back to some of the themes in your book. But how can or how should the u. S. Reestablish itself. I always used to think as much as i was proud of my sailors and marines. I knew we were a threat to the authoritarians in the objective review. Was Americas Network of allies. That was to the United Nations and nations willing to put troops in the field alongside it. We real reestablish the re of someone they can count on. And you talk about things been tarnished. Its pretty clear right now a lot of allies and partners they dont have that same degree of confidence. What we do here as we look towards the future. See mac it is kind of amusing it seems like Winston Churchill has a quote for every single possible situation but one of his lines was the only thing worse than having allies was not having it. Our allies and this is one thing that disturbs me about our current foreignpolicy our allies are a unique american instrumental power. Is one that i discussed in the book. Russia and china had no allies. No one pushed our allies harder than i did. And we need to keep that pressure on. They are criticizing critical. With the economic arena. Just take it out of the military. We think the chinese really had to be for the plainfield to be level they have to make some structural changes in the way they operate. Just think how much more powerful our bargaining position would be if on our side of the table right now we have the europeans and the japanese in the australians and the indians. We stay together. We must make the changes. The chinese love dealing bilaterally with countries. In most cases they can intimidate them. They hate a Multi Lateral situation. I intended a defense minister meeting in asia. We had eight countries counting the chinese minister of defense how offensive their aggressive actions in the South China Sea were. This is a big asset for the United States. I dont understand the unwillingness in washington right now to understand that. And make use of it. I think actually a change in rhetoric. I think being willing to reach out and consult with her allies. And present a strategic case. Just to take one example there is nothing about 25,000 or 30,000 troops in germany. And maybe there is a reason that is a discussion that ought to flow from a discussion with our allies. In the discussion of the strategy and what is behind it. We have made the decision to make 95 troops out of germany. I still recall one of your colleagues Condoleezza Rice telling a bunch of young generals and admirals i did not realize it was 18 inches long when she wanted to make a point and she said remember we will do things with our allies not to our eye out life. Echoing your point exactly. I need to ask you one thing. To forgive my smile as i ask you. This person months i think wants to thank you for your leadership and your service i think both of us can respond to that part. Will care we dont care who you voted for. We did we were worth every bit of the service that we gave. It was a privilege to serve. Is there anything you missed about working in washington dc. The one thing i miss. Is the opportunity with the young people in uniform. I was probably the only person in washington that went to iraq and afghanistan. See those 20 and 22 yearolds men and women who are out there doing their part for the country with courage and honor in their service it would re re energized me. I spent a long time in washington i kind of went through everything. I went through for confirmation processes. Now all of not all of them were a lot of fun. There is nothing like walking out to pick up the Washington Post on the driveway in the morning and wondering what disaster what someone in your organization has done that you have to it was always a really special treat. I miss the interaction with the troops. And i would say with the colleagues that i have seen. They are really amazing men and women. I do miss the interaction. But that is the only thing i miss about washington dc. This has been a pleasure. Its a reminder also in the worst of times our country goes through different times we would say there is at least one enduring lesson. We had time for one last question what would be the enduring lesson looking at our history. What is a lesson that the lesson that you would leave with this hopefully we will all be reading it again. What would you leave us with. I think it would be, two things. Those who wish us ill would be making a historically bad decision to underestimate american resilience and our ability to solve our problems. To fix what is wrong or to at least make progress the other lesson is that it goes back to the constitution and that is to remember that the constitution itself is a bundle of very significant compromises. It only works in American Society with compromise. Everybody has to come out ahead. And that were all in this together. If you cant sit down. Nobody gets their way all the time. So figuring out how to compromise and move the ball forward. Ronald reagan was considered to be that he was actually pretty pragmatic. His attitude in dealing with the congress was if he could get 60 of what he wanted from the congress he would take it and pocketed and go back again to try to get the other 40 . He was always trying to get everything he wanted. But he also understood that he cut it. Half a loaf was a better than none. I wish our leaders remember that lesson from american history. It is a lesson that will stand the test of time. If you dont keep in mind. We will not turn over a country in better shape to our children. Its critical we do so thanks to you mister secretary its good to see you again even at a social distance the author of exercise in power and a new path forward in the post cold war world. We encourage all of you to buy a copy. Send it to the elected leaders. Also, express our appreciation for all of those online. The club has wide range of Virtual Programs. Please visit the website for more information. This Virtual Program is adjourned. Thank you general. [music] during an Author Program the former National Security advisor to President Trump the National Security. Here is a portion of his conversation. We. What do post coronavirus u. S. China relations look like. I think it looks like an a lot. It was ongoing with the communist party prior to the covid19 crisis. And i think it is based mainly on what is motivating the communist party. First and foremost is the parties desire and efforts to expand. As well as to realize that. I think it is a test intensifying. I think we can all see in recent days the information that the Chinese Communist party is waging against United States. A narrative that other free and open democratic parties fail. This is in part to mask their responsibility for how rapidly and how widely the pandemic spread. Even in the South China Sea in the last couple of days they had formed the two municipalities. The big landgrab in land grab in the South China Sea. And a lot of violation of the airspace and what youre seeing the result of this kind of behavior is a backlash internationally and i think thats a positive trend. Trying to charge china. Two thirds of americans in a recent poll. They have a negative view of the Chinese Communist party. I guess the question and what we ought to track now is how does this competition play out in as the internal dynamic. They are harassing the doctors. And then in recent days. They advocate for how they are governed. I think what you are seen as that they are racing to put in place is becoming a more critical party. This is how they have handled the crisis. China is not been able to make good on the promises it has made to its own people. Under the program of national jubilation. And and the practices that actually take that away. I think we are in the decoupling and composition. In the United States and other free and open societies will do everything we can. To protect their selves against the efforts in our democratic form of governance. And do everything we can to think strengthened and on the Chinese Communist party. I think they will continue certainly. I think you will continue to see this out of china. The Chinese Government is not a trusted partner. Is not good place to do business. And we can no longer head some of our critical supply change to watch the rest of this Program Visit our website and search hr mcmaster. Sunday at 2 00 p. M. Eastern on book tv the National Security advisor for President Trump and his book on his time in the trump administration. And then on sunday at 3 00 p. M. Eastern. The faith and Freedom Coalition on his book for god and country and sunday at 9 00 p. M. Eastern on afterwards. Westmore on his book five days about the 2015 baltimore uprising. He is interviewed by heather mcgee. And now joining us on book tv is author and political activist ralph reed. His newest book is called for god and country the christian case for trump. What is that case . The case in a nutshell as christians we are called to not only be citizens of the kingdom of god which is both here now and yet to come were also called to be citizens on ea