You arrive in the United States at 817 never having been here, born in india, educated in indonesia. Granddaughter of a indian British Police officer. Remarkable mother and father, so motivated. Tell us a little bit about comeo well talk about immigration because immigration in the policy issue that has suffused your Public Service. Lets start with all the bit of what that was like. You say in the book you landed with two suitcases and that was it. Guest thats right. Taking so much for taking time to do this and to write commit such a pleasure to be able to have an indepth conversation with a colleague something we just dont get to do. So, yes, i landed here two months before 2027370003. I came by myself. My dad had about 5000 bucks in his bank account and use all of it to see me here because he really believed this is a thise as going to get the best education and have most opportunities. I show up at jfk airport with my two suitcases because thats all you are allowed to bring without having to pay for more baggage. We didnt have money to pay for more baggage. I just remember and a right about this in the book just how strange it was to see first of all not the diversity of people i was used to seeing even though new york city is pretty diverse in the grand scheme of things. A lot of physical displays of affection i wasnt used to seeing in asia. The smells of mcdonalds and burger king which is sort of trent about when youre in indonesia but they hadnt made it to the part of the world yet. And then of course just being in a completely new place, you know, with a completely new environment. Not really knowing if you would fit in, how you would fit in. I went to Georgetown University undergraduate here in the Nations Capital and i remember when i landed at georgetown and i went to the foreign Student Office to get on information and they said, they said something of being a foreign student but not having gotten my running assignment. The guy who is very wellmeaning i think all he heard was foreign student and he stopped and he said do you speak english like i remember saying, being so surprised by that and saying, jokingly saying, well, i do but only if you talk very slowly. So that was the beginning of my entry to the United States added to think i couldve ever dreamt i would be sitting here talking to you as a member of congress. Host absolutely. Its an magnificently intimate portrait that i would encourage people to read the book just to see how somebody arrives at 817 and the United States for the first time ever, the first evolution that results that person become a member of congress but what urf High School Leader of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party and im a leader of the new democratic coalition, the more centrist wing. One of the things that was fun about your book is anybody wants to stereotype progresses is going to have to grapple with the fact that you went to business school, you worked on wall street and you work for a medical device corporation. Thats the wonderfully rich portrait of how the world is so much more complicated than the political stereotypes would suggest. Talk about that and having worked in the private sector informed i think about issues that affect the private sector. Guest that stems from my dad wanted me to be the ceo of ibm. If i could take all my savings and singe across the ocean you better be a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer. Those are the three acceptable professions. Politicians was not one of them. When i went to college i got a degree in economics but somewhere along what i decided i wanted to be an english lit major and called my dad with the one phone call i had a you to tell you is going to be an english major and he screamed at me and said i didnt send you to the United States to learn how to speak english. You already know how to speak english. I promised him i would get work, get the same job with an english degree i wouldve gotten with an economics degree. At the time this was the mid1980s mike milken was king. Wall street was the place you want to work if you were smart and competitive, that was a thing to try to go do. Thats what i did. I went to work on wall street, i worked for painewebber in investment banking. I did a lot of things that no 20yearold should ever have done frankly representing companies in bankruptcy proceedings and working on leveraged buyouts. I realized it wasnt for me but one of the things i tell people i mentor all the time is its important to find out what you dont want to do just as much as find it what you do want to do and also the skills you gain along the way are invaluable. Anybody can put a spreadsheet in front of me. I worked on very complex 300 page spreadsheets back before excel was the thing back in the lotus 123 days. I can find the errors. Understand financial statements. I went to get a masters in business, i worked on Economic Development and some medical defibrillators in ohio and indiana and i feel like every single one of those things has made me better prepared for being in congress because i think just as you were implying people think about the progressive as being somehow completely divorced from business, not in begin economics but it dont think those portrayals are true. But i think people always surprised to hear about my background but its really helped inform idea of wall street accountability and the need to support main street and about what makes good economic sense. What is pragmatic and practical in my world is based on how i think about with the future looks like from an Economic Perspective as well as a social perspective. Host it was a really interesting biography. I worked at a bank for a while just because much more responsible because i was 22 when i was was doing that stuff. Guest a whole two years older than me. Full of wisdom. Host but but i agree with u 100 . I like you enjoyed that. I felt like i was learning a lot and actually an awful lot of negotiation skills and writing skills, the selling skills i did learn in the private sector so i relate to that. But then you make a wonderful transition and this allows us to transition to the issue that really animates your book. You are not satisfied. Youre not feeling that soulful engagement in the private sector and you go abroad to a camp but all of a sudden now the whole concept of immigration, you say in the book that you understand what drives migrants. Lets talk about immigration because that is so much of the story and it is at the core, sounding of the policy debate and the United States today. We dont debate policy. We play defense against our president who has as a to my constituency has created this redhot core of anger and bologna, quite frankly, describing immigrant as criminals. Given where you come from, given this book which is really infuses the immigration debate with morality. Here we are at a moment where we are having the most dysfunctional conversation nonconversation about immigration i can remember. I know 9 11 was important to you walk us through what gets you, they really get you so passionate about moral immigration policy. Guest i think when i was in thailand, and this was the summers between graduate school, i have this opportunity working for three months in thailand for the largest nonprofit and and i happened to go to the largest refugee camp at the time, mostly refugees from cambodia and laos, and it was a stunning experience for me. Really deeply moving to see people fleeing bombs. There was a bombing in the camp just days before i arrived so it was still a very active camp in that sense. Most of the people that are going to be there for very short time before being able to get permanently settled again, coming out of war, losing children, losing families. You just see the resilience that people have and you see a difficult life is for people who are escaping terrible, terrible economic situations, drought, war. And it was the formation i dont think i about as immigration or migration in the mold. I was experiencing what was happening but it was definitely a core piece of how i have related to the issue of immigration when its about other people. My experience as an immigrant infuses everything and you said but it was relatively privileged as hard as it was. I spoke the language. I went to college, all these Different Things that allowed my experience to be easier than most of the people i worked with. Later when i switched from the private sector i worked and International Health and development for several years running a loan fund and it worked all over the world in india, africa, asia, latin america, everywhere. Again i saw sort of the challenges that are the root causes of migration. Thats always been my orientation is how do we think about immigration in terms of root causes of sending countries, how do people gator . Day when 9 11 had then i started thinking about it from the perspective of being a uacs citizen, being an immigrant here in the United States, which is our immigration policy needs to be an begin favoring ensconced in that, started what ends up being the largest immigrant Advocacy Organization in Washington State. In fact, many of our policies in washington what of the best states along with california for immigrants to live and i think a lot of that is because of the work we did over the last two decades to preserve dignity and rights and opportunity for everybody. I got to know the policy detail of immigration. I talked about in the book there such a lack of nuance to the debate about immigration in this country when, in fact, the immigration system is so unbelievably complex, and everybody has a story to tell about immigration. Unless you are native american and, of course, if youre africanamerican you were brought over up in slave shipsd willing. So its a different situation. But anybody else has a story to tell about a parent or grandparent or great grandparent coming to the United States, and the moral core of the identity that forms the United States of america as a nation of immigrants. That has been i think very important to me to make sure that we explain to the American People how weve not had a system of immigration laws. Weve got a few lawsuit and their a few sites in history when the president has managed and the congress has managed to move a complete overhaul of immigration laws forward. But its been decades. Our system has not been fixed in decades. Theres been no major change and thats untenable for a country that has such deep economic needs, such deep societal and familial needs and whose identity is focused on the role of immigrants in building our country. Thats absolutely right. One of the things, to those who arent do not ascribe to the present point of view which i think is a key point of view and will come back to the policy that is built on lies. If you talk to Business People today and didnt even take a moral approach it will tell you absolutely essential to our economy get more robust immigration. Thats across the board. Thats a Software Program in Washington State and the agricultural worker and folks who were unseen, seeing ironically but unseen and a restaurant and that sort of thing. Describe for us, guess its not hard to look at the current mess, and it is a mess by any standards, and moral mess and will come back to family separation but describe what you think since this is really your thing and has been for decades, if you could wave a magic wand and American Immigration policy would change overnight, what would it look like and how does that compare to the bill you are not in washington yet but a bill passed the senate fiber secures ago with 67 senatorial votes. It had a very difficult path to citizenship for the 11 or 12 million undocumented people in this country and advanced sort of employment identification and verification, all sorts of things but a cut 67, 68 votes in the senate. Tell us your view of what a good immigration policy would look like. I was on the outside pushing for that bill and have a lot of compromise is but not all of us like but it had a major components. The key thing to think about is a lot of americans will say because of what the president has said he would for the the present frankly this issue has been political football for long time, taken to a completely new level and demonizing immigrants, something no other president before investing in the same way in recent history. The first thing is people say you should get in line. You have to understand there is no light in the United States. It is no system for people to even come here legally. Ill give myself an example. Ive been on visas my entire life but it took me 18 years to get my citizenship for whole host of reasons. I came in on a student visa. The first thing we need to do is we need to rectify the system so there are processes that is of people to navigate what you come here on a Business Visa or to join family or whether youre coming here to work temporarily for the student. Those quotas that were set three decades ago, those need to be completely updated. In addition to that, that allows you to have a functioning system going forward. In addition to that you have to provide a pathway to citizenship for the 12 million undocumented immigrants that are here. Why . These are folks who primarily had been living here for 1517 years, decades, and it hypocritical for us to say they shouldnt be allowed to stay when, in fact, if they all left, if there all the porta, personal cost taxpayers an enormous amount of money but second if they all left the entire economy would collapse. Lets recognize that we havent had a system that is allowed them to do the work we need them to do but also to be able to stay and they are americans and always accept that piece of paper. To give them a path to citizenship and allow them to come out of the shadows and be full contributors, and understand when they do that host which by the way is a position today that is exotic because the way trump talks about the undocumented by the concept, a half decade ago had substantial republican report because republicans understood nothing else that our food supply chain, our farms, our meatpacking plants simply dont work without that population. Guest thats right. In spite of what trumppence said, which is it is exactly right. There is still substantial support for path to citizenship its amazing given the demonization that trump is done but my growers who were all staunch republicans in Eastern Washington and sent to washington, the businesses, the chamber of commerce, there is clear sense that we need a path to citizenship and comprehensive and humane reform, just as it is clear to human rights activist who might get there for Different Reasons but for everybody people understand we need to fix the system. Third, i would say we need to make sure we have humanitarian ways for people to continue to see the United States as as a beacon of hope and light. So are assigned them processes, our Refugee Resettlement processes, and this is an area where this traditionally been very bipartisan support. Speaker pelosi always likes to talk about the evangelicals who call our Refugee Resettlement program the crown jewel of humanitarianism. This is another place where donald trump has destroyed everything that has to do with people seeking refuge. She has actually shut down the Refugee Resettlement program. He set down the asylum program. We are barely taking any. He set off all legal ways for people to, so we should be clear that Donald Trumps opposition is not just to undocumented immigrants. It is to all legal immigration. Thats why tried to ban student visas, people who we were heren student thesis. Visas. Its why he has tried to shut down legal immigrant programs for people who are coming here to work, h1b, spousal visas. He is rolled back all of that. Lets just be clear, as a gin and the agenda of the White NationalistSteven Miller and others were around in the white house is no immigration, and this country will die without immigration. That is just clear. Host i agree with your statement that probably no president has made immigration such a toxic part of their approach. Sadly, however, this is at some level same old same old. Chinese immigrants were talked about in the late 1800s, absolutely brutalized in the human eyes on the west coast and thats been the experience of any wave of immigrants, the irish catholics, mediterranean immigrants. They were very difficult of course and the germans and the Northern European immigrants. This is sad and very strongly recurring thing. Its ironic because as you point out all of us came from somewhere. Unless we are indigenous to the continent. Lets try to get behind the policy and politics of this. At some level that is sort of absurd that this country that says its value is all about immigration and all this stuff, but for 240 years practically this country is also been absolutely brutal to the latest wave of immigrants. Whats going on and how do we change that . If we dont change that, the way a demagogue, just decides to take on the latest round of immigrants. How do we change that . Guest we have to fix the policy and requires doing in spite of what people say. Every Immigration Reform that is ever happened has happened with tremendous resistance and yet the president that is overseen that has actually move it forward despite any concerns that he might have about what the reaction might be. Because it is what is good for the country and in some ways thats what happened was with l rights and its what happened with every difficult transition that a country estimate. You dont wait for people to get the polling in the right place. You just do it and you do it quickly so you remove the that obstacle, that political football from the field. Lets be clear it will continue to divide us. Youre right that america is at a very history with immigration. I talk about in the book. Its sort of a lovehate relationship and i think that has to do with the fact that fear of the other can really be used and you see it in Donald Trumps playbook. It is fear of the other. Our work has to be for people to reconnect with our immigrant histories. The policy is not hard. We have crafted policy around this over and over again. We know exactly what we need to do in that bipartisan bill in 2013. I would change some things about it today because we moved on from where that is but i will say that the way that you secure the United States and preserve our National Security is actually quite a functioning immigration system where you can keep track of everyone that comes in. You know its easy for people to come in in a kilo. We had was called circular flow migration which was popular in earlier decades but has gone away. You dont build walls and bridges. You have borders that are secure but they are secure because your systems allow people to come in a call out, not the other way around. What we have to do is we have to go a few times, if youre in ia tough district where donald trump is firing of people based on immigrants take, and we have to stop criminalizing immigrants and pass this policy because it threats to everything else. It stays out there as the thing that donald trump can go back to come for any president , can go back to over and over again to try and divide us. We should not be a divided country on this because we do have the history, the identity. We just have not done the policy. The policy is, sadly, have given a path to citizenship back in 21342014 when the senate bill passed, we wouldve spent so much less taxpayer dollars on all the things we have been spending in the department of Homeland Security and we wouldve had a a far more secue country. Instead we are just pouring money into things like walls and painting walls black when it doesnt make it a difference. What we need is a reform of the system. Host one of the things i try to do because even if southwestern connecticut for my district is i get people coming to town Hall Meetings using just brutal language against the undocumented, despite the fact the economy of the area represent would come to a grinding halt if the undocumented or to simply disappear. One of the things i find to be quite helpful and we can move on, is to reframe and remind people of the values. When they get somebody stand up, illegal this and illegal this, first of all we need to grapple with the attacks of the right wing and the concerns of people, and people are not going to say that the system is broken. When youre 12 million living in the shadows, we dont call the illegals but yet they are here on illegal basis, undocumented, that is an affront to the rule of law. What of the things that i find works in a town hall meeting is i would say look, immigration policy is hard and its complicated. We have to dollars who we are a country and acknowledge our economy requires. However, you cant come to the Public Square dehumanizing people, suggesting that all immigrants are drug dealers, their summer subhuman witches of language they use. That is rejected by your religious faith undefined if you can in that moment when my people were talking about people who are doing things that are not radically different than what your parents or your grantors of which are great grandparents did. Now some of the fervor leaves the room and i find that appeal to sort of core human values. We are talking about human beings here, not about the geminis entities. But lets grapple for one second with certainly the language of donald trump and the criticism. A system in which on fox news you would be accused of supporting and coddling quote illegal, terrible language, the undocumented. We all acknowledge assist in which you are 12 Million People living in the shadows undocumented is a terrible system, right . Question number two is on fox news you would be accused, and the president does it all the time, completely open borders, i dont know what that means. I assume means uncontrolled into by anybody wants to come in. Can you address those, donald trump, foxs fantasies . Guest i go on fox is quite a a bit and had to laugh sometimes because im never talking to the anchor. Their job is to try to get as explosive as possible but am talking to people who watch fox news because i think people looking for new way to think about things. What i say is listen, i understand if youre frustrated because you have been able to find a good job. Before covid hit we had the worst income inequality and wealth inequality that weve seen since the 1920s. I talk to people about their situation first and had we make sure we are working for anybody in this country to have decent opportunities . Then i talk about how in that moment when you have that deep inequality its easy to blame somebody. Weve all been in the situation before but dont blame the immigrants. Lets talk about, think about your immigration story and your family safety. Getting people to connect back to the human part of how they came to this country. Third, in terms of the border, i always find it so funny because we are actually talking about creating a system so that you could know who is coming in and out and allow people to have the beauty of being with her family. I said to fox news host all the time you guys used to be the party of family values. What happened to family values when you log kitchen cages or you separate a child from their parent for 16 years if your philippine or 22 years if you are from some of the country . The amount of time that it takes to allow a parent to be with the child in this country, even separate from cages, locking kids in cages, is remarkable. If we had a system that functioned, then thats not about open borders. Its about saying the United States has the right to determine who is in the country and who isnt, and it should be done according to human rights values and global treaties that we signed onto but at the same time if you dont have that, that is when you need to worry because not only do you do not have what you need for the economy, not only do not have what you need for security but you also dont have what you need for the heart and soul of america, the moral value of america as a nation of immigrants, as a country that show a beacon of light around the world for people like me to come in for some other ancestors in generations the people to come to the United States. I find when i i go to that ladf things quickly, i may not get the fox news host what it do finally get a lot of emails from people who are watching fox news who say to me wow come didnt realize there wasnt online. I did realize undocumented immigrants to a Social Security taxes so i can go and retire as you citizen. They are paying my Social Security taxes. I was buying the stuff that immigrants dont pay taxes and the dont do this and they dont do that, that just is not true. Host good conversation. Lets go deeper into the substrate of policy. Lets talk about morality and politics because one of the neat things about your book is part two is all about moral vision. You talk about three different policy errors and its all about moral vision and your story is infused with an awareness and advocacy for a more moral world. I really enjoyed reading it because i spent years thinking about the role of morality in politics. What ive been able to figure out over time is that politics without morality is this insane notion. We are here because we have values and people in this country have different values. We share values but we have different values. Morality needs to some views everything we do as Public Servants but theres a downside to moral framing, which is on the extreme it will make us if you are not quite with my moral vision, then you are immoral. Sometimes i see this all all te time in d. C. And sometimes when we are really aggressive in friendly things a moral terms that makes it very hard to compromise, something we are not known for in the congress today, because you can compromise with the libertarian but you cant compromise with someone who is immoral. Im really interested in where and when morality is key and where and when we need to drop back. Immigration is interesting in this regard. No human can look at family separation, and i saw the step of the board as you did, or a a mother is in a separate cell from their sixyearold daughter. If that doesnt light fires of moral outrage in sight of you im not sure youre alive. On the other end of the spectrum though of course immigration policy is an immensely technical, and so questions of what is the proportion of h1b visas versus agriculture visas, that doesnt lend itself to the kind of moral clarity at family separation does. In my book in an interview said this woman i am so depressed that your first sections all politics second one is moral vision. Do not go together. I think is the question youre asking. And i think for me, it is clear to me that morality to me is inducing everything. I dont want to fight for if you dont know drones values are afraid you can use the term i actually think we share regardless of whether youre republican incident or democrat actually believe we share. Core human values which is we all want the right to be respected. We want opportunity. We want to be treated with dignity and respect. Those are the kinds of things that i talked to universally with republicans in my district as well right the thing we have to remember jim is that our system is not a rep. System. It has led to an represented this government. Its represented in the sense that there are 750,000 People Choose me and choose you. We call that rep. Democracy but if you look at some of the institutionalized racism and sexism that has pervaded our system for so long, reality is that the people who are in power in making decisions have the particular perspective of what may be moral or not. And in many of the details of our policy even though it doesnt sound like it lay the groundwork for a continuation of that racism and sexism so for whatever is him it is. So when you look at these policies i do think that is very important to keep and northstar there anything about he colleage john lewis who just passed away correlation coming to also just passed away. Both of whom are so welcoming to me when it came into congress i remember saying my fighting too hard on family separation but also on immigration. They both sort of take me by the shoulders and said you keep fighting with that urgency. Because i think sometimes politics gets reduced to the lowest common denominator. Think that is easiest to move forward with most quickly. But that is not actually the thing against the root causes of what is happening that requires a much deeper analysis. And it sticks to the solution rated so do we need people to agree with us 100 percent every on everything. Definitely not. The technical pieces where you can argue about how many people get covered for healthcare through this means versus another means pretty short, all those things are real but what is happening is a character characterizations of people for example the criminalization of the poor, or the immigrants, and happen with welfare reform. This are detrimental to any progress moving forward. So thats often the thing that we have to fight about. And we dont read and we were on the floor and the republicans want to divide us. What do they do pretty they use some motion to recommit for people who dont follow every piece of what we do. It is focused around criminalization. Of immigrants, black people in from people. And we are too afraid to take that on. Insight, go ahead. You want to talk about mobilization. Lets talk about where these people are. Were too afraid of that 32nd ad that might come through top districts. I understand that every district is a debate district like mine. But i do think that is where leadership comes in. Because if we dont fix those underlying pieces of recognizing the unique work of all human beings, then that is when a test on any policies we try to put forward. Rep. Jim you made me think, you talk about the republicans. Youre right there designed to split the party and motions to recommit. Finally we did it to when we were in the minority. We need to be a little bit humble about the fact both parties are to blame. Rep. Pramila jayapal you were because you can tell me. It never split of those motions. Rep. Jim remarkable brightest. Rep. Pramila jayapal words amount use on cspan but the recognize that there completely ridiculous and the procedural and they do not worry about it. Rep. Jim they were remarkably disciplined. As long as we are talking about republicans. In my opinion today, when i 12008, is new england, gradual more blue but prior to me, it was generations of republicans. Lets talk about very briefly, theres so much of what we need to get to. One of the things thats really disheartening to me about Politics Today is that our republican colleagues and we should both of us have republican friends. We actually have good republican relationships. This remarkable to see the party really give over its values and his loyalty not to set of principles through we may just disagree. One man who has actually taking advantage of the fact, they isolated themselves from some of their traditional constituencies braided the fact is that it suggests that both of the Labor Movement supported donald trump or at least very closely split. How in the world that happen. By the way i see this when of union halls in connecticut. About a probe sentiment. Theres a correlation between education and support for donald trump. And again i know these are very complicated issues in a very strong feelings about the dividing. Dividing people who are on the winning segment. The running category in the United States. But it does feel to me like you look at devastated communities in ohio pending the midwest and in the south, this bill to me like the defense brought the ball in the donald trump figured that out and played those communities in a way that we bear some blame for doing. Rep. Pramila jayapal yes yes yes we totally agree about it. I talk about this in the book. Donald trump is both a symptom and cause. In the cause of tremendous pain and racism and everything else. But he is also a symptom. He was elected because too many people across this country including those in White Working Class neighborhoods but also black folks and run folks across the country. You are disenchanted with democrats didnt believe offer them. There were confuse arches and trade. Donald trump went right in there and im not talking about what he did later. Im talking about what he did when he ran for president pretty soon im going to fix these unfair trade agreements. And im going to make sure the working people process country keep their job. He talked about opportunity for working people. Democrats took so long to get on board for a living wage. One of the most popular policies across the country healthcare. We went on healthcare in 2018. Because they continued to destroy healthcare. Donald trump has made all kinds of noises about what he believes in. Making it sound like hes going to fight for the little guy. Democrats have not done enough to either show we really are on the side of regular working people. We should be expended collective bargaining rights ten years ago. But we did not. We passed the proactive. We should have done that a long time ago. Really said to our labor Union Brothers and sisters and siblings, we want you to have a powerful vote. For democracy on the job. So i think this is what he came into braided and later on top of that, racism and many other things that he used, and time with so much of the country suffering. If the country was doing well jim. So this wouldnt have worked with the country was not a well. 60 percent of americans did not even have 400 bucks in the bank account before covid19 hit. So this working. And for us as democrats, we have to remember two things going into the next election. Number one. A base is critically important. So the polling, unite are pulling for joe biden to be president of the United States. At some stumbling on this. It looks like joe, biden has a big lead donald trump. But i would say be extremely careful because when they take out likely voters in effect rent for enthusiasm braided that lead dropped substantially. He said think we need a base with us. We need young people and folks of color in all places because michigan, we need everybody to turn out. It matters in these places. And secondly, i think that when biden is elected president. We have to be bold. We have to recognized that her security spending, and if we dont invest in people and education and housing opportunity transportation. That we will ultimately worsen the inequalities. And then there will be another opportunity for another donald trump to win. So we will have to be bold to step up in the best our communities. And hopefully keep the white house in 2024. Rep. Jim himes i agree. That there is great more commonality an agreement across the board and political spectrum particularly on political spectrum. And i have some disagreements on Economic Policy rated we come from different tribes from the Democratic Party. But there is no doubt those things, consistent universal healthcare and reasonable education. I dont care what your circumstances are, you can be persuasive around providing that, you will appeal to everyone. I was thinking here pretty clearly interesting part in your book want to highlight. Little harder in the realm of social issues. I see the republicans because they recognize that we have an honest economic debate we would when that all day long. Delivering 83 percent to the top 5 percent. If thats the debate. But instead, they try to paint the democrats as postal elitists that are obsessed with gender neutral pronouns in these a lot of dark language about people who view things differently and who love differently. And i think that is a little harder conversation. I see that in my own district sometime. Why, is made incredible progress in this country. We have made head spinning progress. We do have a long ways to go. Ten years ago, or 11 years ago, i dont think anybody was for american equality. Barack obama was previously, kind of hounded by joe biden. But weve seen dramatic changes some of the changes is scary to people who come from more conservative there is a new not limited. Ellipsis one full page in your book here where you have a non binary child pride wishes to be referred to and then republicans make all sorts of condescending comments about prs in the sort of thing. And theres this thing where you say i should use pregnant people instead of women throughout the piece that your writing. Do you big knowledge with the trans binary people might not identify with the term we would use to be pregnant. This shows a great deal of care. For people who have been at best marginalized. And probably targeted. I thought man, i had done a lot of thoughts about binary what it meant. So, my question at the end of that long speech was heavily make sure that we are bringing people in and saying to ourselves perhaps, you may not be quite as far along the journey has others but we wanted a few rather be on ascending you for you bigoted. Because quite frankly, is not what the republicans say about us with the president ial candidates called terrible. If we possibly who with these issues, i think we have some blame for how we talk about these things through. Remarkable based in your book. How do we get to people in a graceful constructive way on social issues. Rep. Pramila jayapal not was scarcity and barefoot abundance. And i think that one talk but evident non binary child. My friends who are confused about these pronouns braided my mother is in india and she took the full course when jenna came out as non binary and she still cant keep opponents ends okay. So try to come out at it as from the love of a parent to talk about how we want our kids to be who they are. When people have trouble with that it does make me judge them. Hes what i myself to go through my. I still sometime refer jenna as he because for 20 years, this what jenna was braided so i think that understanding of the attention is important. But i also think that everybody wants to be seen jim. Everybody wants to be seen and visible for who they are. Those identities are so critical to some people to be seen. Something we should be strong about it and loving and generous and call people end. I tried not to judge people. Thats why have problems with people are talking about people is binary. They were talking about people in dehumanizing ways braided that is my child. That is unacceptable. So course i had to speak out. I also think the other thing is there are so many points of connection. And we dont have to agree on everything in order to respect each other. Im in a very democratic district. Mom and he talked to my mary. Top two vote getters get to go on into the election. Im facing another democrat most of the time the election. And what im trying for the state senate, i decided i was running against another democrat is a general and i decided that i should attract the republican because they are 20 percent of my district. They dont have a republican to vote for so why not me. So much talk to them. And i have a story in there. Its a beautiful sunny day and i went out to these republican households and they were identified in my walk she is republicans and go to this one guy and he is out there cleaning is yard. Is this big burly guy that is always. And i have some serious traction we might have this conversation others will go. So we end up getting into this wonderful conversation and guess what. He agrees with me on 15dollar minimum wage and he agrees with man collective bargaining. He agrees with me on a whole bunch of things. Actually in on immigration and then he asked me, how do you feel about guns. And i say honestly, i dont like them but i understand second amendment, my husband used to hunt pretty dont tell him the my husband is not a buddhist and a vegan but my husband used to hunt. We have a conversation that becomes clear that were not going around the issue of guns. I just think it should be responsible like if you have a car, any license. You need to be responsible about guns. And he said will of god youre one of those democrats and going to take kids away from me. As of trying to move on. Isaac and every vote. And he said i was ready to give you my boat and then we get to the dons conversation. That is something i can do it. I disagree with you annette braided and as i understand. I wont even married to your wife. He said 23 years pretty nice as well, it is amazing. And you guys agree on 100 percent of the issues and he laughed prayed and he said of course not. I said will you marry her. Im just asking for your vote. And he absolutely stood still for a moment and park seven takes my hand and said you know what, youre different kind of politician because at least you tell me what you say be some going to a vote you. But if you try to take my guns away for me, im going to be on your behind. And he did vote for me. So i dont think we have to really agree with people but we should be real. And we should be okay with them disagreeing with us just as we might disagree with them. Rep. Jim himes is a wonderful story. I really enjoyed it. Its a good thing that the story is wrote they way that it did with him voting rather than telling his wife sorry honey is over pride. Rep. Pramila jayapal about want to be a marriage record. Rep. Jim himes a couple questions. I spent a lot of my time thinking about how we create cohesion parties. The different ways of you have the party our strength braided people often ask me questions how come you messaged and fair. The stereotype. With that we are as a party. We conclude proverbial educated coastal elites. Is this, africanamericans braided latinos, lgbt communities. A lot of glimmer movements. Unbelievable. Just look at our sitting in the Florida House of representatives. Again without stereotyping too much the other party is not. I just put it this way. There almost exclusively guys. So i spent a lot of time speaking about cohesion within our party. If you win if you dont have cohesion and embrace. In one of the things fun about your book was your attitude is you just described is one of the of being open and welcoming and graceful to people with different views. This winter in which i would say that that tone changes a little bit which is in the air area of medicare for all. This is a very difficult topic. I actually think we mishandled in the party. Pretty much every in the straws company other does healthcare rather than we do. They have a universal, switzerland has been insurance but waived subsidies. His nationalized system where everybody worked for the government. Theres a hybrid system. The world demonstrates lots and lots of different Healthcare Systems. Your description of medicare for all, i came away from it thinking something afield the in interrupt democratic debates, medicare for all, is the way in your discussion here, you or it becomes their spreading lies about what medicare for all is. I got the impression which was actually with the rest of the book, and in this impression elsewhere in your discussions your internal discussions of the Democratic Party that the supporters of medicare for all. By the way, i spend a lot of my time in the i have issues with it, depending medicare for all. Because we use it and lots of other countries is its. I did since a little change up until now when youre talking about medicare for all. Is that because this is such a critical issue. Or is it because youre more of an expert on healthcare, really thats the system that works in the United States. Rep. Pramila jayapal i think it is two things. I know that you believe its a system that should work and by that i am not saying that everything that is in my bill 1384 is the only way. I think people would say to me, how come youre in a twoyear transition. You have a for your transition. I say everything politics coming for the legislation fourth and then there has got to be changes. So if we ever get to the point were talking about it too or a for your transition braided fantastic and im ready to have that conversation. But i think that i do believe that universal Healthcare System that is paid for by the government and that is coordinated by the government i should say but the government has the main conduit through which healthcare is guaranteed, and that its not tied to employment or tied to any other factor. That is absolutely what the United States to do. And this in fact that most of the country do. There are changes here and there there countries who are starting to change in different directions. Thats most countries do that. Maybe have a little bit here their private sector braided is not our system today. And some of what you accurately picked up in that chapter is i have been very frustrated by the attacks on medicare from all by our own party. So the people are saying that is absolutely the gold wheat and trickle should get to. Lets talk about some of the issues that are here. Lets debate them. As a what happened. People say its absurd. You cant get rid of that. Because healthcare from employers offer so much choice. And for years jim, i can sing which was to have when you lose your job. What choice do have when your employer takes your healthcare. And which procedures are covered. That doesnt sound like so much choice to meet. The program was the greatest choices of medicare. But now, nobody is making that argument that 45 million americans are filing jobless claims and 27 million plus or healthcare because they lost their job. That is the frustration i have is there is a sense that somehow we are naive and idealistic. And that the cost discussion drive me crazy because i do have a very clear sense of cost and economics. I can tell you we keep going with the system, we are going to be paid 50 trillion over the next ten years. Nobody wants to talk about that. The only want to talk about the cost of the medicare for all system what everybody is less that is the reason for my frustration is that i feel the people within our own party for whatever reason, i have my thoughts about it. But for whatever reason, they refuse to acknowledge that our system of healthcare was never a system. And we are seeing it right now with the pandemic. In the fact that african americans, four times as likely to die as white americans. Latinos, nine times as likely to be hospitalized as white americans. Partly because they never had healthcare and they were never able to pay for even the treatments that they needed which let them exposed with all of the underlying conditions that caused covid19 to take hold. It is a travesty to me. I get worked up about it. I am happy to have the discussion with anybody but i find the people dont even want to have the discussion. That bothers me. Rep. Jim himes and into my all of the time, we are the very definition of inefficiency. We dont cover everybody. We spent part of her money for far worse results. And so obviously something needs to be done. Rep. Pramila jayapal but one hopeful note there for you jim. I just finished cochairing the binding sanders and i did not turn joe biden into Bernie Sanders however, we made tremendous progress on what we can achieve is a party or platform. I am not change my mind medicare for all but we did make tremendous progress in terms of the biden platform for the Democratic Party on achieving universal healthcare braided. Rep. Pramila jayapal. Rep. Jim hn 2018. In our Healthcare System, when we fought tooth and nail for the Affordable Care act. Is regarded today as incremental. So we need a lot of work. I think we just need to be humble about the notion rated and in some source you are suggesting, the notion that there are a lot of like swenson great britain, france. They all do it differently and better. But i think we can overcome the lies and all of the socialism. We can overcome the lies, is how the Democratic Party reconnects with an awful lot of populists think we are way over time. I never done this before braided on the talkshow host but this is by my good friend and colleague thank you so much. Rep. Pramila jayapal jim, thank you so much for reading the book and for just having such a wonderful conversation. And for everything that you do in your leadership. Its a pleasure to serve with you. Rep. Jim himes thank you. This program is available as a podcast, all afterwards programs can be viewed on a website at booktv. Org. Cspan is unfiltered coverage, a congress of the white house the supreme court. In Public Policy events pretty much all of cspans Public Affairs programming on television, online, or prisoner free radio app rated any part of the National Conversation through cspans daily Washington Journal Program or through our social media feed. Cspan, created by americas People Television company. As a Public Service and brought to you today television provider. And on book tv, we are live with author and Robin Hood Foundation west more braided will be taking your comments produce books include the other was for, searching for a life that matters and five days of the fire reckoning of an American City which looks back in baltimore during the riots like the death of freddie gray