States. Benjamin i noticed that there may have been a flurry of books on socialism. This is price because socialism has come into the american mainstream for the first time in our countrys history. There have been socialist candidates in the past predict Norman Thomas but they were never in the mainstream for now, infected a time when many of the socialisms had collapsed at the end of the 20th century suddenly its back in his back with a vengeance. So my surprise theres a lot of books that try to take stock of it. By and large its going to be the history, the idea the socialism has never worked before. Certainly not for lack of being tried it was tried and really the majority of the world. The largest countries in the world, russia, china, india. Oh one go into the socialist direction. So is that it didnt work before so its not going to work now. History kind of argument. But the problem with that argument is the socialist left result a lot of people dont know the history so it doesnt really get them pretty the second part of this even though if they do, they listen. We are trying and new arm of socialism number one. Some authorities and trent authoritarian is to panic. In her model is not linear mall. It is scandinavian. Like the way the people like live in norway and sweden. Soy nuts scandinavian model. It works there and you can see it. And three, are socialism socialism is not just about flat grievances that include racial grievances and gender grievanc r grievances. Sort of the words on the left is putting forward this kind of new socialism if you will. And saying that this time its actually can and will work. Lets get straight what we are talking about so when you write a book about socialism, what is it that youre talking about. In the classic sense. Most early socialists pretty very economic context it was some form of collective ownership of the means of production sprayed abolishing private property. The form of socialism is not very common today pretty leasing large scale. So what is in the music socialism here. New socialism is not it would call a classic socialism. No socialism is sort of the involved the last century to half. Originally, is a socialism before mark sprints the voluntary communities of people and we come together on their own and share all of their possessions and they would usually kind of a free love components. But the state was not involved. He proposed his marxian socialism which is essentially the revolt of the working class. Presumably overthrow the capitalist and take over. They would take over the means of production and ultimately the whole community. The prediction has never come true. Even marxs date this day anywhere in the world. Theres never been that revolt ever. In the late 20th century, socialism it for many companies, nationalization. I grew up in india. Any government took over the banks and took over the airlines. Control ultimately the farming industry. So socialism in practice meant state ownership of Massive Industries and critical industries. In the left today is not interested in any of these per se. The new socialism is an economic component and has all these ideas renewed deal. Medicare for everybody, free college. You can see that these ideas are now embraced by the mainstream of the Democratic Party. Also includes its cultural components. Teresa mark in this book were see it is difficult socialist todays not a union guy demanding higher wages pretty sort of the eco feminist through marxism and black lives matter. Throw cement blocks that are to our political opponents. This is the character marks could have foreseen pretty and reflects the fact that were dealing here with an interesting highbred of cultural and economic issues. A lot of socialistic here what about than the minimum wage. Caremark of the transgender bathrooms and they care about the universal based income. Theres a cultural component that sometimes overtakes the economic component. Lets work through this starting from economic component rain and then getting to these cultural components. I thought it one point in the book coming to find types of socialist to believe it was, hardcore socialist because i socialist and socialist light. Because unlike maybe. Leaving with those three terms. One falls into those categories pretty. Limited think about this is to compare biden against for example Bernie Sanders for Bernie Sanders is explicit socialist predict he sounds like an alltime socialist pretty it is a Common Element pretty he honeys hundred enemas in the soviet union. Now this is a bit too much. I dont think this is a socialism but you can actually get buried so democrats have talked for call it socialism white printer perhaps miraculously briefing socialist. Sabina and for example those free college but now he is for it. Why. Because the pulling the Democratic Party is towards the left pretty good when you think about socialism knows as much is a kind of defined thing. Think of the free market unwanted of the spectrum socialism on the other end and asked this question. Wish democrat is pulling the free market direction and wish democrat is pulling in the socialist direction. The simple answer is, theyre all pulling the socialist direction pretty without exception pretty sought whether there pulling hard holly. That the depressive decide liska with ripping socialism. It is more marketable. And bernies socialism. Thats why they picked biden overburden. I think youre exactly right. On the spectrum. Even defining this narrow version of nationalizing the mean of production. Varying degrees of that were socialism in the present, the soviet union and communism are greatly, nationalization. Partially liberalizing and so overwhelmingly socialist. Maybe running in the opposite way. And policies going the opposite way some of them the predatory mentioned. Seven healthcare some version of nationalized healthcare. With benefits into the traditional socialism. It doesnt course there are welfare states in europe that have National Control of healthcare. Part of this is to start by you can debate these things without being honest about them. Just knowing what you are talking about pretty so that i of people like Elisabeth Warren, talk about medicare for all. To begin by using kind of rhetoric that has to be impact. Say things like want to take healthcare away from the Greedy Pharmaceutical Companies and started over to the people. We want the people to be in control of their healthcare. With their healthcare is administered. So then i asked the obvious question well. What roles do or will the people have in any of this. Lets look at other government institutions pretty what controls the your i have in running the post office. None. What controls your i havent running the dmv. None. Or controlled is the ordinary british guy have over the British National park service present pretty so people here its a little bit of a road pretty youre going to be running anything. Elisabeth warren is. So right away we realize the socialism offer some things to the socialist class this opposing it. It is not just the pharmaceutical companies of the people of the third player the politicians themselves have a great deal of power. To gain. How are the does ultimately converted into monday. This very important component pre socialist in america very rich. And people are able to parlay the position ultimately into the cash from seven to the bite the obamas. Out for great these people go from 0,200,000,000 in the government center. They cash in the public position pretty so that is the first point that people are not in charge. In fact the real question is this would run healthcare. Putting the Insurance Industry pretty on the Political Class and that makes it a little bit more of the actual choice savings. I think youre actually absolutely on point here. And this is true the name of the people. But they end up benefiting. Some more than others. No one think they will throw out as part of this economic policy. You say is treating everybody more equally, universal basic income. Guaranteeing a minimal income to all americans of that they can be free from the oppression. I want to print how do you respond to the proposals on that pretty. I think we have seen a little bit of a preview i nasty preview i was safe socialism. Under coronavirus. Where we actually had some form, monday through universal basic income pretty i think the glutton was actually almost, there was want to say to the market people, eight even sitting in cash for months pretty would you like to keep doing it. Why do you want to put on an outfit and shape a good work and punch a time clock to listen to your point regret having to forgive thousand or 2000 bucks a month essentially make you a permanent slug. Have to admit, there is a little bit in human nature this is well, that is fantastic because it was to get off the couch. This appeals to all of us. Ultimately, a voice to the type of socialism by the way the democrats are telling pretty readily mark would been discussed by this. He actually admired the worker was sweating and putting in the long day and is only point was that youre putting too much of the loan it on this guide. At some point is back his windbreak. He will have enough. In dripping with sweat tested this. Tomorrows workers of the world unite. Theyre not as the democrats have now. Freeloaders of the worlds unites pretty democrats it would seem to prefer that we dont work quite a patient me to be aware they said, were not going back to work pretty go keep telling us to go back to work. Try to make this temporary condition permit. Another way to put it is the shortages, mimic purchases pretty think that i am familiar with in india. Our family and a russian card for example. Under coronavirus them up with the december a case taste of what socialism would feel like on a permanent basis pretty we should not also forget the attack of civil liberties. That is the key part of what socialist do. Its also no religious liberties, no freedom of assembly. No freedom of speech. No guns. Its funny when you pay people not to work on me dont get production. Policing that decrease months. Another one that will bring up. This is not fit with the troop traditional marxism. Free college. Free college rather than african forgiveness of student debt as part of the package. I was watching 60 minutes and i see this fellow, joe lubinski. He studying to be a doctor pretty decent man, i would be such a better doctor if i didnt have to worry about paying for medical school. Will be separate in this education was free. I could put all of my attention into being an outstanding doctor. And heres leslie nodding. And im waiting for to ask key question which is a joe, you another people, the guys to pay for your education, to become a doctor, you willing to work for free. And the answer is obviously not. It was a bmw five sally with the pool in the backyard. And wants to have the big house and so on. So is the point pretty he wants the privileges the first being the doctor but he wants it the foreman to pay for his education. The shamelessness of this. I think a little shocking. And i dont think again the marks would have any sympathy for the sky pretty would consider him a bourgeoisie part of the class to actually be thrown is back in the working class made him angry enough. So the problem with the working class today in america is there less likely to be funded of the union, revolt then be canada trump rally. The left has lost pretty. The working class of the being has become wildly prosperous over the last 150 years. Finding their constituency on that. For the new policy this being proposed on the states environmentalism. But really is live socialist components underneath. So is renewed deal renewed deal. If you look at the renewed deal, number of its remedies have nothing to do with climate change. Honestly believe that many of the politicians pushing the renewed deal, neither no no care whether that is getting caught her colder and the earth. Theyre experiencing it exactly the same as they were when kids. So ultimately this is a ruse. Why is the need for abuse at all. He said the working class is not going to deliver with socialist want. An economist about a hundred years ago rapes the question, why how socialism became mainstream in america. In this answer is all socialist utopias and custom to live on roast beef and apple pie. In other words the working guy living too well pretty was to join the countless class, not to sort of violently sling it to the ground. The leftist figure this out. They know it they realize we need to pivot. Many new types of waves get the socialism that the kind revolt marx predicted which is never going to happen pretty soon the relying on the politics of fear. Fdr learned the new deal that fear is a great way to get things done pretty that you could not get in otherwise present since then, since the 70s when it first came to america in my teens from india, but during this period the 70s the world was running out of food pretty in the 80s it was nuclear apocalypse. The 90s, the ozone layer was apparently dissipating. Thus 20 years is that climate change. Editions arising the glaciers are melting in the pink with the coffee. In the late late coronavirus print something pretty never caisson the idea is to create panic and try to get people to do in the stampede in a crowd mentality, with they would not do if they thought about it. And acted in a comment deliberative manner. That is the key strategy of the left since the importance of climate change. You also identified this. Fear earlier in the 30s. This can have america began this transition to socialism. In the presidency of fdr and the policies he was putting place there. I like to highlight two elements of that fft operated. Either all that well known. One of them is that fdr actually favored in the seems almost coming to say today. Hundred percent tax rate. He thought if you made over a certain amount of money the government should pay everything. And one point even said, why should any american make over 25000 year. Obviously this time, he did mean 25000 but nevertheless a statement is really pretty wanted dave limits on what americans prefer. I could earn. He also introduced the politics of demonizing the rich. Which is been very critical to the politics of the market lofgren much as the socialist with the Democratic Party in general. This is actually worth noting because it is not necessarily the characteristic of socialist countries. Scandinavian. In that country, you would never see people demonizing the guy is running nokia demonizing guy runs somebody for making pay. Liking finger, Bernie Sanders is doing. So in the left side were trying to follow the scandinavian model, no youre not spray directly following the fdr model. The model i would say, the politics dividing the society, not just run away with that many different ways. Michael scandinavian unification pretty were all in this together, to begin conferencing with what could be division socialism which is absolutely critical to the politics of the left today. Look at the way for example that there pretty racial divide. They literally speak department. Because it part of that socialist strategy. Some surprising. A couple of years ago, when i was researching are the book about socialism sucks. And while they traveled the world, if any ship im going the big socialist conference in the United States. And into 2019. Talk to young people there. Theres basically nobody in our age range there. Everybody was either in their 70s, or 35 and under. Mostly 35 and under. And when there to understand what did they mean by socialism. What are they talking about just to learn. I didnt hear very much about nationalizing production. Instead i heard, black lives matter, immigration issues. Climate issues. Gender issues. Think of it as you go across the spectrum of different things. None of the traditional socialism. An abortion was a big one that they all chanted about. I dont remember seeing that it marks anywhere. I was a little bit surprised about that. Actually, maybe we have differences on this pretty some of the issues that they point out, but their solutions to be almost being seen a strong. You identified does as identity socialism. Would you like to elaborate what is going on thats a little bit pretty. Yes. Think this is one of the kind of signal contributions, book. I identified and tried to if you will, this new type of socialism identity socialism american classic socialism identity politics. So think of classic socialism is essentially strategy marxian division between rich and poor. Loosely speaking. The modern american socialist left, the divided society is that but its not just that it is also race divided black against white. Is a gender divide delegates female. His Sexual Orientation divide starting a skate. Transgender and is also an immigration divided. Legal against illegal. So amazing that while boxes started car of society into two groups of the leftist trying to slice Americans Society into many different and across many different lines for and why are doing this for the doing it because they think that if we divide society into these eight different ways, we can assemble a Majority Coalition of the Victim Groups that can come together and then sort of take on everybody else greatest of the trying to to 51 percent and firm belief that the democracy itself a legitimate nice. Of the of the 49 percent. This is what they called democratic socialism. To me is the arm of naturism. To be used on a full of difference if i was a kid going to school with ten marbles in my pocket with one guy jumped me and forcibly season mice marbles or im a group of ten and the other nine jump be a majority, take my marbles in the way of being robbed. So you think it is about the banner of socialism that gets those barriers, very individual issues that dont necessarily think together pretty what is it about the mentor socialism the polls them altogether. I think there are unified really by the hatred. And that is of capitalism more broadly hatred what can be called the infrastructure of western society that is made capitalism flourish within it. So another were some they dont just take the market. Where the Insurance Companies pretty they also hate the family. They also hate the idea of a judeochristians structure of morality. They hate the idea of these churches which are a vehicle for people to express their freedom of conscious. I think if the at its way the targets would be family, property in the church. This is not unique to be. The russians, they said all socialist target these three institutions they do it right away. It wasnt striking to me and even though we have aggregates of democratic socialism. How quickly they have become and suddenly say, you cannot go over your freedom going to have surveillance pretty how quickly they say robbie to check the churches down pretty no one is denying that there is a coronavirus. The truth of the matter is, this is also a First Amendment and theres nothing in the contribution this as unless theres a disease or less Health Authority say otherwise, the truth of it is that these basic constitutional liberties are not upper democratic referendum. It does not matter if that majorities husband. I still have a right to say but i think it freedom of conscious. But the idea without debate, and he said listen, we still think no. You still have the governor of new jersey saying shut down the churches pretty wasnt even thinking about the constitution. It didnt even cross his mind. Obviously the book was written before the covid19 pandemic did and what youve seen here with governance to the United States but also around the world the United States nationalist but then at the state level. Crackdowns on authoritarian government policies. What we can do with her economic and civil and religious lives. Is that make you think any differently if at all but anything youve written about the progress of socialism would be writing the book. Benjamin no, have to say the book has been vindicated and kinda chilly way, by coronavirus but by the aftermath of the george lloyd kelly. If i had said that in america envisioned that defining the police. Basically to spanning the police force. I think i would consider that part to extreme thing to say. I think the people would say your little crazy here. Only dare say that i am hearing and present what is happened here in the san angelo economist, is that we are seeing here is a an attempt to supported socials conformity. I guess to almost anything foreseen. And even though in reflection, the right people kicking the feet of the activists of the black lives matter. The same thing of statues, sedately statues of columbus and churchill in a rambling had. The unknown soldier rated this shows you whats really going on. Spelling about george floyd. Its a specific injustice of george floyd in the truth of it is that unified outrage from the right mean putting this video first surfaced. As an opportunity for national unity. But for the identity socialist they cant work like that. They need an instrumented deliciously immediately took the George Floyd Kelly and on top of it a much larger narrative. And not what you think it would be normal narrative. It would be bad cops now lets try to make mark good cops with no. The views lets have no crops. Wipe because the cops are racist braided institutions racist and so surprised. These are Free Market Society is allied with white supremacy. In market itself is absolutely racist is been that way since 90s but youve got this remarkable and gigantic narrative. And it is went on to the George Floyd Kelly. If you disagree with the narrative, even accused of being insensitive to george floyd. So this is the strategy if you will of the identity socialist. They forced you to embrace the larger narrative even though youre more willing to go along with them in the original injustice. It is not willing to sign on to a whole bunch of other stuff. There is nothing to do with it. On his see if i can pivot this until socialism in the book that related a little bit, try something different. In different narrative for you on this pretty similarly acting i think that in just the cardinals recognizing free market capitalism tends to minimize racism because people who discriminate pay a consequence. The specific industry of course that they are protesting, is one partially government run throughout the entire country. Freemarket capitalist talking about how privatization and policing could be any better address these issues that would legitimate of concern to people pretty. Benjamin i think there is an opportunity there. Ive been quite struck in my lifetime to see that services, that even i took for granted would be government nobly. The post office. They have now found unit competitors you ups, and so much of our Defense Services is out to private corporations kinds of opportunities. Theyve only theyve always done better in the private sector. Some was a law of the universe predict elected to the post office they would not have figured out the meals could be delivered overnight to the state. Its only when fedex figured it out that they went oh yeah, we can do that too. They the plaintiff existed for 100 years. So this is a level of innovation as you get from the government namely zero. I agree. On the other hand would say the very reason we have a government, the very reason we have social contact, such as according to loss but hot, that is that we need protection pretty we need to be protected from foreign and domestic. And off to favor the large state he said if the state does not do that, it is i can view the protection that you came into the society and the expectation of, basically a look all bets are off are you more no more related to the city of every right you certainly dont need to pay your taxes are basically back in the state of nature resort want to emphasize radicalism of what the left is putting on here. Defund the police to me, actually means to solve the social compact. Bring this back into the book a little bit more. For to be show here. By the way to see all of your other Book Promotions pretty you not going to get anybody to play the privatize part of the deal. Yet. So thinking about the identity politics and this divisiveness. You bring up in my favorite chapter in your book. It was on venezuela versus sweden. And i think it was Something Like venezuela and sweden no. About where this is all headed. And bernie despite with the soviet union, and talking about the scandinavian model pretty since things like denmark and sweden and norway, those nice places. This living which by the way, and hundreds of her, i did not that that he had never visited there. I was very telling. People bring up and ive done this before my own writings, these countries are not very socialist. They beat welfare states that the high taxes brought the people. Actually and as an economist, theres a lot of problems with that the reason why the growth is not as good as they could be. Those not socialist. And often said they with that view but you also had a different point he said whether it is not comments basically not obtainable the United States. Why not. Benjamin the american socialism is based on a simple idea. An idea allied by george shaw in fact a century ago pretty any difference the robs peter to pay paul can count on a support solution this country this trend people. And listen, we can offer you this and they can offer you that in the really good news is its truly free. It was not truly free his college is not free. You have buildings and professors and then technology. Hospitals are free. Its pay the doctors and nurses. The good news is for you that were going to make somebody else pay. Thats a key to american socialism would actually collapse without it. If you told Bernie Sanders, Elisabeth Warren, stop demonizing the rich and so promising to somebody else make. They would be rendered completely commute. As you know, the scandinavians do not do this. Their first catalyst read and Wealth Creation and low corporate taxes. About the same as air. Most of them have no minimum wage pretty can iron fire people pretty recent braided with one exception they dont have a plus tax. Theres no american tax print the kind of financial transaction that Elisabeth WarrenBernie Sanders are proposed for wall street, no scandinavian countries it does that predict and universal income, they dumped and government declared it does not work for you that is the actual scandinavian model. And they dont demonize the rich brightest of the left does not want that. This is a key to at the do. The second point is the scandinavians have high taxes. But they distribute them evenly across the board. Even the middle class pays high taxes. If you make 75000 going why debate close to 50 percent tax rate. So it is not that the millionaires and billionaires will make. Its the whole society did in the consumption tax 25 percent, as economists, disproportionately on the floor. So distributing the loan, everybody wants benefits everybodys going to have to pay the scandinavians to use the vocabulary because they dont they know. Free produce pain. They are free to become doubt that model but that is not the model of the left even want. The key to their strategy and this is the political element of it is that we like to offer people something for which they do not have to pay so that we can trade that something for their vote. The scandinavians do not do that. Dinesh so i think you call it another socialism. Theyre in this together and saying to us as a group. If you make the argument that you cannot even pull off that pitch in the United States rated were not. Benjamin because, is essentially better medicine. You could go to the market people and say, pleasant guys, the government will now provide you with certain key services. Preschool and precollege. You have your retirement provided for you. You never have to pay another Health Care Bill your life. But in return, yes of the entire society to save your paycheck and cut it in half and said that have into the u. S. Government. That would be the truth scandinavian model. So if you make 50000, despite a check for 25000 and then. Does the scandinavians do pretty will most americans was a board to do that. In the left knows that. And thats why even Bernie Sanders in a strange way, his early career, acknowledge the millionaires and billionaires. Then he became a millionaire greatest now notice, he only denounces trillion years. So the key is robbing peter to pay full approach. Anything you want to point out is my wife is from venezuela. All of the things that we see in american socialism, you can see there. Venezuela and socialisms identity socialism. The former dictator, was indigenous pretty in each introduced politics of Race Division into venezuela. Indigenous in the blacks against the whites. Venezuela has a militarized gains. There are allies of the socialist regime. People and motorcycles with the carry comes six and cement blocks. They even look like a defect in effect in their answer to nt five. So again, this is a similarity between venezuela and the United States pretty were scandinavians version of the dont have any. There is no such thing. All of the elements again, we say the left says that we are following socialism braided we are trying to be like my way but in reality there following a different model. The venezuela model and it doesnt end very well. Dinesh is those on Economic Growth because of the bad incentives for the will her state and high taxes. It still doesnt kill the goose that lays the golden night because it state spread out the pain across everybody to get together. So one question im interested in in it relates to this. Why that model is not sellable in the United States. Although you commented about it. Its a smaller society that is more like helping each other out instead of subsidizing them or vice versa. So i wonder what role immigration has played in the United States because you didnt say very much about the history of legal migration which of course for most of us in our history essentially all migration was a link that was legal. What about making socialism impossible in america. Go back to his writings. He complained about it in the United States is a buzz in europe precisely because of the workers. Did have as much solidarity. We have a legacy of that today the makes my mind, socialism is harder to pitch in the United States. What role do you think that is played. Benjamin i think estate played an important role. Im struck i would say, i am out illegal immigrant missing history of america. Through those eyes. In fact when i was in college one of the most striking things means many of the questions of a new prep hers but were never addressed in the progressive if you will curriculum. The progressive curriculum based on things like that in america extend its prosperity and his regime of legal rights. Two previously excluded groups and my question was how to market become prosperous in the first place. Part of the socalled third world country, that water nation of the time of the founding become the richest country in the world in less than 100 years how does this make this kind of an abundance available to the common man. I think progressivism braided a little bit inside. 2 question but it is push these questions under the rug. In the left is very focused now on the phillie illegal immigratn supply, why can they not vote. If this is ultimately about thing what are you trying to achieve by appealing to people who cannot ultimately vote for you if not legally, hopefully. I realize with the left is up to here. As part of the broader politics. They inflate the idea of the legal in the illegal. The objective of which is ultimately to try to force the republicans on the bright. Not just being against illegals but against mexicans or against immigrants generally. The idea here is to try to fermented kind of him again immigrant rebellion against the Republican Party in by erasing the very important line between an awful entry to the United States in an unlawful entry to the United States. Rep. Dinesh self from a free mt perspective what is the great offense against this for free markets and borders to say that we need to expand legal immigration. So that illegal immigration is not much of a problem. To legally migrate is astoundingly coming from other countries princes kind of freetrade labor which is part of free markets. Benjamin yes, i also think that i agree that our country can and should take a large number of legal immigrants i think also by the way that immigration systems is broken in the sense that may have taken immigrants for example the family and the provisions which is ultimately are kind of a racket. If i had wanted. I am the only member of my family here in america but over the past 30 years, i could probably have brought 50 or 60 of my family members to kind of process. This was not the intention of the law and all. So i would say, left to see american take legal immigrants but also specify that we want to present hardworking industries people to believe in the American Dream and are coming here to assimilate to its pretty think that immigration would be at first till we took those kinds of people and of course the fast before five because those kinds of people would be very likely to vote republican. And in fact the socialisms, its often precisely the type of people seeing socialist country this the characteristics that youre speaking up. I could think of no more antisocials voting block in the United States the cuban immigrants in florida. And wanted to bring this back into the venezuela part of your book braided what is going on there. The democratic freedoms and ideals. A lot of people dont know the history of venezuela. I know youre more familiar with it all into your writing but your own personal relationship with the wife. It was once a very rich company economically free pretty capless. The left doesnt want this anymore with us in the wet socialism. Its really a telling story. Tell us what is happened there. Benjamin is so poignant and sad. My wife sprints, the opposite i grew up in a country that was sorely socialist. In india now is much better. Whenever i go back, New Buildings and people used to go to the sea to wash their lives, now have washing machines. Theres a driving middle class. Indias better. My wife up in venezuela in the 70s that was fantastic. So fantastic that when she came to the america at the age of ten, she thought she had moved to a throat world country. She thought the market was for and venezuela. So revealing. She was see a pattern is multiracial, prosperous the flirting democratic system, rival parties. But to see that breakdown into a kind of third world. To see the oil industry that once flourished in venezuela be raised to the ground in part because the socialist government fired all of the technical personnel and replace with sort of Bernie Sanders types. In other words, they didnt know how to get oil out of the ground. This is what happened in march of the socialist takeover. And were seeing it a little bit in seattle. If those guys were truly autonomous they were starving weeks. With always putting out a list of supplies. Sinus medicine, gary was a business that. In the larger freemarket society that is the standing was guys. So the bottom line of his venezuela husband destroyed we could go the way venezuela. I think debbie and i are determined to put our hands to the wheels to make sure that doesnt happen here. Part of it too was the compensation of businesses. They were trying to fund their socialism by just going after the wealthy. And as a result, theres not wealthy. Benjamin there is a Television Show out about president e. Hello mr. President braided you literally see him walking on the streets of venezuela. And he said the rules that. By jew pretty said okay, appropriated. Literally at the very moment, the going in for sanders to get out and they take on any system of that business in the state while hes a bonnet of our regime. So this is socialism carried to its logical endpoint. But i dont think it is that different from what the that has my here. I think when guy like bill de blasio cc losers smashing glasses and running out with a bunch of shoes, its really hard for him to condemn them too much white because i think he sees a younger version of himself in the second because they want to do in a systematic way with the leaders are doing in an unsystematic way. So the looters are just running out pretty it would have 90 percent so ultimately he could run these businesses into the ground and get these resources legally. Enough offer them in exchange for the dependency political support. Dinesh political appointments pretty nationalized. This is what is happened to the democratic freedoms. People say they want democratic socialism, they dont see the connection. And with capitalism and freedom, they both basically said to very large degree, is very hard to maintain your democratic freedoms. Was become dependent upon states. Likelihood and traditions and engaging in economic exchange, you lose your voice. Benjamin people seem to forget democratic socialist braided thats with india think very profound point. Avoid say my way. Because we hear so often, thoroughly destroying property. That is completely different from harming a person are taking their life. Property does not have the same kind of value things have. Actually wanted to reflecting in our own experience because the untrue. The things that i own, that are my you will. Everything my clothing to my classes to my books and so on. There is much an extension of me as my thoughts, my memories, my experiences disintegrate my relationships. All of this encompasses if you will, the larger world that is me. That is my life. So the idea somehow it can take with things because they are merely things. This clearly not the same as violating my persons pretty think is actually a very deep policy. This is the way in which our blood sweat and tears of god into building and acquiring artifact part of who we are. Dinesh i think this is a great transition because i know one of the goals you requested cant just talk about the economic problems or identify section but to make them oral argument against identity socialism and the moral arguments like free market capitalism. A broader moral case for freedom and free markets. Benjamin this to me is absolutely critical because i think a lot of the anxiety. A lot of the appeal of socialism arises out of the moral anxiety capitalism. The moral anxiety dualism is often i think effectively defended by certain types of libertarians who are always pointing out how capitalism works in well. And capitalism course discourses information effectively in organized human behavior. And the left sort of says there point that is immoral and unjust braided i think the core of their argument is not even the argument of inequality, but somehow its undemocratic. It does not allocate rewards in proportion with what people do. So this is the argument i really try to, the bullet try to take by the horns. In a very small way here, just one make the point that while the democratic socialist, i think that we need to extend democracy from the political sphere into the economic sphere. That is the argument for democratic socialism. Authorized for the moral agenda busy itself. But my point is the market is more democratic now that our political system. Think about it pretty political system where the voters, and we thought every three or four years. No vote to make decisions directly. We vote for other guys make decisions on our behalf. But in the market, as consumers, we vote all of the time from ever seen a pretty many times a day. We vote with our hard earned dollars predict this is a form of participatory kristi freshly having something important to us that represents our own efforts worst when we fund politics is not writing from a lot of people stay home. If it is raining, they should they stay home. When it i am making as we dont have to extended. Because we already have it pretty capitalism is far more reflective of popular wills and consent in democratic socialist. Dinesh your hard earned dollars, some people would say unjustly hard so both in the marketplace are entirely unjust. I think personally they are missing is wealth generation process print really comes to cooperating by helping serve your cute fellow humans make profits. In the vast majority of our economic it could, but theyre still kernel of truth to some of it what i would call tony capitalism. Work people do or dollars and vote in the marketplace predict what you say to the justice of the morality of that pretty. Benjamin i think is actually not capitalism at all. In fact it is an unholy alliance between the state inserted his dislike for devon smith was on to this and very suspicious of it and i think rightly so. On the other hand, its important to know the reason we have a lot of inequality in these billionaires. She said no and earns a billion dollars. You take a billion dollars. I want to explore that for just one because it seems to me is not entrepreneurs but created this enormous inequality. We have. Why. Because you have the supply, good example is steve jobs previous traditionally we think of entrepreneurs is responding to an end. People have to eat so they supply food etc. But they want to drive cars with his five cars nobody wrote to steve jobs and eight, about making a phone the makes photos allows you to text and has a builtin gps does this does that. No one did that. He envisioned it and then he belted. They market it before we knew we could not live without it. So the enormous rewards, is because they had done something that we would think that is almost impossible. They tend to stay in their wants and needs even before we knew one of the sink spray think those are the more ingenious entrepreneurs. In layman target and hit it. They aim and hit the target that the rest of us cannot even see. Dinesh is also every day monday and innovations finding ways to lower costs. In serve your customers. That creates value predict just humans left to wrap up then. I would like to ask you, the average american was watching this interview. In sitting here putting his head with you. Is he or she concern with socialism spreading in the United States. At least saint by your book, and they could buy my book and three we want to throw in their asthma should they go and do. And to deal with the socialism in the United States. Benjamin they can also watch and share my movie, sexual culture card and i like it the book in the movies onetwo punch pretty biblically sound intellectuals find. This, the movies more emotional narrative, journey but the ultimately telling the same story but in a different way. In reaching a wider audience. I think most importantly, we have to understand socialism. And understand the new socialism or we can effectively answer it. A lot of the young people by the way partner attracted by its. Its not that they are down. A lot of it is, a whole other star that we havent gotten into prayed even though the left was dominant there was real debate of the types of issues that the pagan revolution was all about. Now i get a campuses will find young people debate it. When i say things, they look at me as if i just slapped them. Because theyve never heard them before. No one on the campus is never that to them before. So we have ultimately i think unfortunately, a little bit of a brain washed class of young people. As desperately important that we find other ways to reach them so they at least know that they can subject their existing prejudices for questioning. Cedric landen business in texas sometimes. Is a much healthier climate discussion there are things related to this is healthier. I also think it is important to identify the pico. Was the injustices that they are seeing. This think about how voluntary cooperation might solve this better than say socialism. Benjamin i couldnt agree more. Probably a lot of new people and they look at these escalating college costs, like the free market system. They dont realize that the presence of the whole government provisions for education and encourage these universities to jack up their prices. In the words, were not dealing with a free market. I sometimes use the analogy the jury youre in a she started people say coming hard to food predict upper stuffed whatever you want. People within say, as im taking two cartons of milk, i will take 30 because theres no stopping them. But what we dont realize is when you show up at the counter, the grocery guide inside of the counter, i should be charged 2. 40 regarding the bill. About 30. So what is happening is a ripoff scheme is now emerging. Our thought scheme which i am the Grocery Store are complicit in robbing a third guy who is not present business in this debate. Taxpayer pretty someone footing the bill. The political strategy of the democrats is based on that. We think the invisible third man who is not present in the debate. Dinesh i think thats exactly right and Healthcare Cartel for the relation pretty think is much for joining us today. Benjamin inc. You very much. Weeknights this month, return book tv programs is a preview of what is available. We cant cspan2. Thursday starting at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. We begin with historian hj on the 19th 20 president ial election pretty discussing his book, dewey defeats truman. University of virginia history professor, arguing that during the civil war, the north was motivated to liberate and send copper south. Later Boston College is straight talking about southern social political and economic ideologies prevailed in the american west. Following the civil war. In triple tv, as he spent two. The president available in ebook and hardcover presents biographies of every president inspired by conversations with noted historians. By the leadership skills the night for a successful presidency. In this president ial election year. As americans decides to decide who should lead our country. This election offers perspectives the each president s leadership style. To learn more about all of our president s in the books featured historians, is it sees pinups. Org residence. Available in paperback, hardcover and ebook. Wherever books are sold. Book tv on cspan2 has top nonfiction books and authors. Every weekend, saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, binge watch programs the late offer his books include no one left to lie to. The missionary division of the trial of in re kissinger. On sunday and 9 00 p. M. Eastern on afterwards, Yell University professor edward on his book, life of iceman which looks at white supremacy. A member o. Hes interviewed by cheryl, author and georgetown University Professor of law, civil rights and social justice. And incipient, in her book, susan is now leadership style of her grandfather and the important decisions that he made during his presidency. Possible tv this weekend on cspan2