Distancing social from future tense in partnership, a partnership of slate, new America Foundation and Arizona State university. Today were talking about the future of books and then joined by Priscilla Painton who is Vice President and executive editor of simon schuster, and Brandon Tensley was the National Political writer for cnn politics. Hi, priscilla and brandon. I cant hear you have to unmute. A, nice to be here. Thanks for having us. When i was asked to moderate this, one of the things that it brought up, brought to mind area broader in my memory was how in the early 2000s it seemed like everywhere you went there was like a Panel Discussion of the future books and people making a lot of predictions about the future of books and how things had to change and which way they needed to go, and that was all tied to the emergence of ebooks and ebook technology. Most of the people said at the time, did not turn out to be true. Ebooks did not take over from print books. In particular, younger readers more than any other Demographic Group preferred print books. The idea that Book Publishing needed to change with this technology, maybe it did in some ways, but not maybe in the ways that people thought, and im wondering first, priscilla, i dont know if you remember that time or the kind of craziness that went along with it, but do you feel i dont know how much credit you gave to that idea at the time, but what do you think about it now . Do you think any of those predictions are likely to hand out, and how has that changed your own personal feelings about printing future books . I am terrified to make any predictions. Im still terrified of making predictions. I was a fan and i am now. Before becoming a book publisher i was a political reporter so i learned humility early. What i would say is that yes, you are actually right i remember the charts. You would see ebooks go straight up, and i think thats the in of the bookstore. What happened is about five or six years ago that trend stalled. As you say, physical books continued to thrive. The Biggest Development though is that not only do millennials like physical books, they love audiobooks. That has taken off as a genre and that is also very good for publishing. Because what it means is that you can take a book with you as you vacuum your living room. You can take a book with you everywhere, and that is also frankly at a time when we need a very reliable source of income. It has turned out to be exactly that. So the good news for me, to meet the big headline is so simple, which is people will read, are reading more than ever. They are just doing it across a whole different set of platforms. And i call it the harry potter phenomenon, which is everybody thought we were no longer making generations of readers. Well, a whole series of books about popularity came along, and what we have is generation after generation of readers who just changed, maybe change the way they consume, they consume a page but they dont change their desire to see something on a page. One of the changes that feels the most urgent right now has been about diversifying the industry, and we just recently have seen the day of solidarity where 1100 Publishing Industry workers took a day to do whatever they felt was necessary to support people of color who were writers or worked in the industry, and have exacted some promises, although its always not clear what exactly those promises will pan out to be from management about making the industry more representative. Its very white. I think its anywhere from, i have some figures right here. Depending on which a a survey u look at it anywhere from 76 84 white, where the general population is 60 white and hispanics and blacks in particular are underrepresented. Im curious, you brandon, youre a young writer of color, and i dont doubt that you have ideas for books. How does the Publishing Industry look to you from your perspective . Yeah, its interesting for me because i, on the one hand, i see that there are certain more Diverse Voices that are out there, and those are either voices a lot of people up and they elevate, they celebrate a thing when you take a step back and realize everybody is talking about the same few people. It seems like maybe a few people get in and have which are infallible. People are reading them right now despite all the protest but they also think about all the people who have not been that successful, who have not been able to actually break through. When you think about it, i think, i dont want to say its disheartening like the industry hasnt been changing but you see how much still needs to change to find writers who not only want to write these stories but are empowered to actually write these stories. One thing ive noticed recently especially on twitter and you probably noticed different campaigns were people try to talk about what they were paid for the books and things like that, and its pretty galling to see somebody like roxane gay got paid 70,000 or something for bad feminist. Shes already pretty well known by that point and really reflected as a writer. And so you see stuff like that and you also see people or at least ive seen people talk about they will have an idea for a book project and maybe they will approach an editor and that editor might say like this sounds really good. This sounds like a story that needs to be told that i dont know if im the person to work on that story, which is sort of a doubleedged sword because on the one hand, it shows a degree of selfawareness that is important. You dont want to necessarily messed up somebodys work if its not something you feel comfortable working with, but on the other hand, you still need those editors, you still need people who are comfortable working with these diverse stories and stories that maybe make people uncomfortable to edit a book about race and racism needs to make people feel comfortable and they have the resources to be able to actually do this work because it does, in fact, a lot of the stories that are told. And peoples willingness to tell those stories with a think somebody seems to like this book for this book idea, but they seem skittish about taking it on themselves. Those are my general observations especially over the past two to three weeks of the protests. Do you feel like they are skittish because theyre basically white editors and you dont feel like they understand issue in the organic way that an editor of color with . I do. It seems like it when it seems like its a matter of respect, like i dont want to necessarily botch somebody there and nuanced story about race. On the other hand, i think that can also be sort of a crutch so that people dont have to do the work required to rigorously think about the issues where theres an appetite for people to consume and read about. This idea, its a matter of disconnect between lived experience and the sort of intellectual experience that youre supposed to be able to work with and a question of how do you bridge at the five and how do you get white publicist for editors to feel comfortable really throwing their weight behind these types of stories. One of the things everybody is talking about this week is the fact that the paperback bestseller list on amazon is almost entirely books on antiracism which is exciting but then you realize most of the people who are buying those books are probably white. I dont think black people necessarily need to read about how to be antiracist. In a weird way most of those books are written by people of color, but they are presumably written for still like so much publishing for a majority white audience, even though there are lots of readers of color who are interested in reading about their own conviction about their own experiences, other kinds of stories about their own experiences. Priscilla, what you do you thie some of the most promising or even effective, i mean the industry has not by that part on this but like have you seen strategies for policies that seem particularly helpful for promising to you in this . Basically to get more editors i was going to say to take up where brandon was, i think the solution to skittishness is to have a diverse, you know, imprint. Youre absolutely right that publishing remains one of the most starkly white businesses around, and it has the capacity to be dangerous because presumably books have something to contribute to the culture. That by definition is not a healthy situation. Youre right that the good news is that, i just was reading the New York Times bestseller list. The top ten entries, print and ebook nonfiction are about race thats never, thats that happened in my lifetime ever. It starts with white fragility, number one. Number two, you want to talk about race. Number three, how to be antiracist, and it goes all the way down to our favorite, just mercy. And, of course, number 11 is michelle. Based on what ive seen, the strategy is that the people who have the right nerve endings for these stories should be all of us, i think. They shouldnt be a skittishness about it, but more importantly we just need to change how we hire. Its really basic and i mean, i dont want to get into detail but theyre still a sort of, you know, i kind of its on the side kind of attitude as opposed to integral to our list is not this thing we do over here, you know, and thats a big attitude that needs to change. You can correct correct me t any of this wrong, priscilla, because i havent technically worked in Book Publishing but my understanding is that for like decades the economy of Book Publishing ran on the cheap labor of sort of junior staff who all came from life the same set of east coast schools who were mostly women, who may be, many of them were not even necessarily on a real career track. This was just a little hobby job because the parents were rich but they were doing until they married a stockbroker or whatever, and that was likely economic model of publishing that your junior staff were people who did not need to be paid a living wage, or to really have you know, you didnt need to offer them like the possibility of ever getting one. It seems like its only gotten worse because the industry is in new york, and its more and more difficult for anyone on, even a middleclass income to live there let alone what editorial assistance are paid. And yet everyone always says publishing is a lowmargin industry. One of the issues is partly that theres a certain class of people who can afford to work for publishing, who can work their way up in publishing. Im assuming that you came in at a higher level from journalism which it definitely happens, but for people who want to start out kind of in the trenches and work their way up they have to be able to live in new york on a pittance for several years at least, and then theres not that much, you know, there is no guarantee. Theres not that much space to move up in. So that limits the candidate pool a lot. It limits people by race and it also limits of them by im wondering, what are some of the measures that can be taken to deal with that . I feel like that is just a wall that unit at a certain point. Well, youre right that 50 or 70 years ago that there was a culture of, where publishing was, you know, your entry job was for people who could afford to not make a lot of money. I would say the salaries of injuring people are still low. Entering people. One of the things that comes out of the pandemic is we are suddenly able expand the universe and where people can live and edit, that would be a very good thing. I think the biggest remedy is to change the range between the higher salaries and the lower. You dont make a lot of money, even at my level in publishing meetings at the vicepresident level. Its not like working on wall street or at a high level, at a corporation, at a big, you know, ibm type place, but theres still, i think, quite a gap between what entry level editors get paid and part of, i think, the philosophy behind that is that you actually get trained right out of school. You get trained on the job, you know . So with that the good news is that what i have seen in recent years is a lot of hiring of nonwhite, very ambitious for books type people who just have to be near a book every day of their life and theres you know, theres more the pool is getting larger and we are Getting Better at finding those people and hiring them. Well, one of the promising concepts thats come out of the organization and we need diverse books, which started as the in childrens Book Publishing, which is to sort of help fund internships for people of color, and i would hope, you know, other lower level jobs so that people can connect, afford to get started in the business, is they dont come from money, but let me ask you what you thi think, you know, what you feel is missing. You know, youre a you think whier reader. Youre a reader of color, youre a younger reader. What do you see the industry not providing to readers like you . One and this is such a tricky topic so im being careful how i talk about it, but one thing i think about is a need to sort of expand the universe of what kinds of stories people want from writers of color. I think theres often a sort of assumption, and its not totally inaccurate, that, you know, the topics that writers of color of able to talk about, are experts on are their own lived experiences, so, i feel beyond sort of the genre, a memoir, or, you know, a question of written essays, Something Like that, you dont see as much, i havent seen as many sort of books that allow that range of creativity, that change of exploration, that range of interrogation, and again, you know, its not necessarily a bad thing, but i feel like it becomes a bad thing when thats the only thing available. When it seems thats the only way to break into the industry. Sock, i guess i have to dissect some part of my life or make a part of my life ledgeable for white readers, white audiences and i guess thats the thing, so ill do it. I think to be able to understand that there are many, many, many things that writers of color, that readers of color are interested in other than learning about their own experience. Not that its not important, but expanding that conversation, expanding that representation. Just, i mean, what ive also heard some writers say is just to focus only on the traumatic experience was as opposed to like, its a whole range of you know, its human lives and they have everything in them. Are you working on a book yourself . I am trying. I guess its not related to and im not guilty of what i just said, but you know, sort of the idea that im interested in is sort of Whitney Houston as this cultural figure, somebody who hasnt gotten the sort of more cultural criticism treatment, and sort of how we can get how she is somebody in a lot of ways, her life is a microcosm, the expectations that we have, that main society has of black artists. Somebody who came in pop heavy, obviously black, but didnt want her to sing too black and how that sort of changed the trajectory of her career later on and she changed the sound of her music after that. And so i am interested in this broader sort of legacy of the effects of mainstreaming on in particular black artists. Im guilty of a little bit of what i just said. And extend it at least to music. It sounds fascinating and maybe theres somebody who is listening in in publishing who will find that intriguing. [laughter] sounds great. Lets talk about technology, the future trend is a lot about technolo technology. What youve said about audio books struck a nerve with me, ive been writing about them for a while. And i started writing about them 10 years ago and an addition to me, i control the number of books and some day and then we love you. This is great. [laughte [laughter] but it does seem like theres a lot of competition from podcasts and theres actually a great app called autumn that now has top level audio book readers reading if journalism, a dream come true for me. First of all, brandon, are you an audio person at all or are you just an eyeball reader . Actually both. Well, more of an eyeball reader, but it was interesting the top of the conversation when you mentioned people, you know, millennials, ill be a representative for the millennials for a second. The millennials, they like both or at least they see the benefits of both. Its funny, im in two book clubs, that i joined sort of joined and started once the pandemic started. And one is a Gay Book Club and were reading, im reading a hard copy and immortal girls by andrea lawler. And the other is the chiffon trenches and that was, for me thats an audio book. Thats one that i listen to when im cooking dinner or cleaning up the house or something. But when you said that, you know, people are doing both, im literally doing both of those right now. Yeah, i am definitely seeing from some of the younger readers that i met, this love of the print book as like an escape from screen, which is which was not what was anticipated, but that is, you know, like you could see there are tik tok videos of people opening books in a strange way that i just feel kind of alien to me, almost like the fact that its on paper. But it clearly is presented as this relaxing escape and yet well, i dont know print sales really did, did really get a boost during the pandemic, so maybe that kind of fits with all of that, but then audio books are kind of the book that you read so that you can multitask, really. And i mean, i think its great, but on the other hand, i know there are a lot of people who feel like its not really reading because youre not giving your full attention. It will be interesting to see where that goes, but the more popular audio books become, the more significant the performance becomes, because its not just like a simple translation from the page to the microphone. Theres another artist involved and that could make a huge, huge difference and as you were saying, brandon, he reads his own book, tolling. Yes. Thats got to be fantastic. [laughter]. Okay, i think were kind of at the point where we can take some questions. Is that i dont know. I cant tell. I thought we could tell, but im not getting any signal from card space. So while were waiting to figure out if people have questions, priscilla, you mentioned audio books, but what else do you see on the horizon in the Book Business . Well, today we acquired a book thats going to come out in four different formats immediately. One is the first is as an audio book because its by a famous artist, and then the physical book is going to show up and then at some point, its going to become both a cd and a vinyl. And its a book of poetry. And im only mentioning that because we never would have sort of five years ago they would have been first, and hard cover and then the paper book and then the ebook. Now theres a lot of experimentation going on with what does this book need to get its biggest audience . What does its audience want specifically . You know, 10 years ago people discovered graphic books and it was a way, for instance, of telling the story of the iranian revolution. Who knew that you could tell that story in a graphic novel or a graphic nonfiction book. So that i think that has made a big difference. Theres a lot of experiments that didnt work. And when i first joined the business, oh, god knows, 12 years ago, well have books, well have ebooks and then in the ebooks, youll be able to press a button and you know, either make a comment or get an audio video that will accompany your ebook. Well, guess what sound effects. Said, no, i just want a book give me a book. Let me read the story so, we the point is that we have experimented, we continue to experiment oh, another thing that we tried that didnt work, oh, lets do an event will happen in the world and lets get David Mccullough to write the historic version of the story and well put it out in ebook in two weeks. And you know, people didnt you couldnt find those books. People werent interested. And that didnt work either. So the good news is we keep experimenting and you know, and thats good and we should continue to do that as we did today when acquiring this book. Okay. You do have thank you, priscilla. You do have a question now, from anonymous attendee, thank you very much. And this person asks as a writer of color, are there any good resources for those of us who are interested in one day writing a book, but are finding the barriers into this space a little intimidating . I think that it really depends on where you are, doesnt it . Because if youre taking classes or you belong to a writers group, i mean, i think that writing in itself is isolating, and then if you feel like maybe theres not that many people like you in this world that youre trying to break into, that makes it even worse. And so, i think kind of the first step is to build the community when you meet her writers and you maybe take some classes, you maybe join a writing group. You start to share information and network, maybe you need a writer who is published and they recommend you to their editor. Those are the i mean, i had to thats kind of the way that it works, partly because theres just so many manuscripts floating around out there as such a general rule, that somebody needs them to find them the good ones and its usually somebody they know. So the things, i would say to do is even though writing is such a solitary activity and its just this alone thing you do and you dont want there to be other steps in the way, but building a community with other writers is kind of the First Step Towards entering into the community of published writers, and people who work in the Book Business. But maybe they might have something else. I would like to add to that. I think thats really wellput, but the other way to do it is go look at your book shelves or go to a bookstore and go to the acknowledgements and see who the agent was on your book. On the book. If its a book that you love, and the and the book will have an agent, a literary agent and that agent is going to be predisposed to really wanting to hear your voice because youve loved a book that he or show has represented and you think that person can really hear you. And there are agents who have a great track record with the books that i mentioned earlier, that are now dominating the best seller list. And you can find them, if you just go there and they will i think theyre they will listen. Its another here is another question. It used to be said from andreas martinez, it used to be said that big best sellers would subsidize a lot of worthy books or i think if you just titles that are worthy, but you dont necessarily know theyre successful, i think andres that might not sell too many copies. Is this a so is this a roughly accurate description of the Business Model or have they changed . Are there more big best sellers more or less guaranteed to give the Publishing Company to try other things maybe, books that wont necessarily arent out there advanced or sell a million copies or they want to publish just because they believe the book should be out there . Or books by authors who are not quite there yet, but who might get there some day . And i guess, priscilla, thats one for you, maybe. Right. Its true, but its a little less true than it was a few years ago because we did benefit from what is known as the long tail, meaning the idea that the internet had about a sort of flattening effect, which meant that more things that are smaller could last longer. But i would say that frankly, if you gave me a choice between an instant best seller based on the New York Times best seller list for two weeks or a book that back lists and that your grandchildren are going to pull out of the library, thats really the model that we all aspire to and its hard and thats the hardest they think we do is figure out is this book going to have endurance . Is it going to have value . Are we going to look at it years from now and say, oh, that was the best biography i ever read and pull it out again and recommend it to others, next generations. Thats where i think you really make money. Another anonymous attendee asked, can you speak to publishing choosing or not choosing to publish members of had the Trump Administration and youre the editor of john boltens book so maybe you could speak to that . He was already a house author. He had already published a book years ago called i cant believe, my brain is gone, but it was a modest selling book, but it was and so we had what is called the option on his next book so when he approached us, you know, we had the you know, we were inclined to publish him because we had had a relationship with him. I think the book was called, surrender is not an option. I think thats what it was called. You anyway, you know, i dont know that im typical of the Publishing Industry. Aisle, i come from journalist and when i was there, you know, we put, you know, Michael Moore on the cover one week and ann coulter on the cover the next week and the idea was to sort of try to get across the range of voices out there and the kind of different cultural and political influences that were shaping our politics and so im you know, im ive also published Hillary Clintons memoir, what happened, but i also published karl roves memoir about his time in the white house. I feel a first draft of history, if they are books of quality, and i believe those books were, then, you know, they are important contributions to what we need to know about how our country is either moving forward or not. And so i tend to think there shouldnt be we only publish on the other hand, if a book is going to say things that are irresponsible and if its not going to be, you know, a quality book, then you wouldnt publish it. What do you think, brandon . Yeah, i like the way that priscilla framed it in terms of, you know, publishing the first draft of history. Like that sounds like a fair and rigorous way to sort of i dont know, at least give the opportunity to have these kinds of conversations and i specially like priscilla, you want to understand the influence, forces influence on a political conversations. And like you have a brain with so if something is bad, inaccurate or just wrong or inflammatory, then you wouldnt publish it, but otherwise, yes, especially in this moment it sounds like a good place to find yourself. Just personally, its not my choice to publish things that are not, but ive been working on a piece that involves reading a lot of books by former members of the Trump Administration and, you know, most of them are not people that i admire or respect, but nevertheless, im getting a lot out of those books. I mean, im reading them, you know, clearly with, you know, a lot of skepticism, but im also i do feel like im gaining valuable knowledge from them. I think when you talk about someone like milo, whose name i can never pronounce, whos basically a sort of who, you know, 80 of the things he says arent even true, then i think you get into a like thats just trash and you dont necessarily want to publish trash, but i dont think that just because i disagree with someone politically, if theyve had some kind of an Important Role or theyve seen things or even if their version of history, i can see something some kind of truth through it, even if i dont credit it. I still like to have that out there. Okay. Here is a question from jennifer howard. Hi, jennifer. Someone i never met, but who i used to work with back in the day a bit. She says hi, everybody, thanks for doing this, any thoughts whats happening currently with the distribution chain, amazon and ingram and how its affecting book sellers . And i dont know if jennifer means with the pandemic or just sort of before that. Im not sure. But that is something i am completely incapable of commenting on. How about you . Priscilla . Well, if its about the pandemic, i mean, you know, book stores shut down, barnes noble to shut down and so a lot of the consuming of books have been online, but even at the beginning, amazon made medicine and food a priority for shipping so books fell down the priority list and so it was difficult even to get books. One of the good things that happened is the Publishing Industry got together and started something called book shop. Org. Which i know you know very well, both of you, which allowed you to basically allowed get a book from your local bookstore, even though the bookstore is closed, and make sure that they get the money for it. Not amazon, and also, that the that it goes to supporting, you know, the people in the industry who get these books out. But im not going to, you know, there was certainly disruption in our warehouses and there continues to be and you know, its a heartbreak, but i think for authors, i think mostly because, you know, theres nothing like working on a book, lets say, for five years as laura says, all by yourself. Your spouse is tired of hearing you talk about it, finally, finally, you get it out there and you know, there are no book stores that, you know, to showcase them, but more importantly, the story on television or on the radio is makes it impossible for your book to get any oxygen. Now, very inventively, i think all the publishing houses found ways to put their authors out there to Virtual Events and get their voices heard there have been some wonderful opportunities. We had to learn every week, what was working and what wasnt. But, you know, i have a book im very excited about coming out in july which does touch on race because its a story of a friendship between the cohosts of call your girlfriend, and its really a story about big friendship and they have found their audience already. We know its there. The independent book sellers are ordering the book and theyre getting their message out in an unconventional way, but they are getting it out. Yeah. I mean, i think this crisis is just a reminder, it impacts different titles differently for an established author who has a new book out, a steven king, however, its kind of in a weird way, the pandemic is kind of great because people have this idea that they will just be home all the time reading. I dont know why people with kids would think that they would have that much reading time, but, you know, book sales were up for the first few weeks of the quarantine. I think because people had that in mind, but one of the main ways that people find out about new authors, debut authors, authors who are outside of their comfort zone is through a bookstore, especially if they are lucky enough to have a book seller who really knows them and their taste and who says, oh, brandon, i have just the pook for y book for you, and let me show you. Thats what the local indy bookstore should be doing and is doing in the community and with that gone, its much harder for a new author to be launched. I have a great question from kevin which im going to toss to brandon because it has to do with writing nonfiction. Given the controversy over americ american sensitivities of the time, is there a burden on nonwhite authors writing about race related topics. And thats from the other side. The editor is not a person of color and theyre editing. But what about how i mean, this is nonfiction authors and the thing about american dirt, its fiction and it chose to tell its story from the perspective of a person of color. Even though the author is white and many people thought there were many writers of color who can also tell that story. So why was this white author getting all of the oxygen, as priscilla would put it. What about writing nonfiction, biography, history, what do you think authors of those kinds of works need to be thinking about . Perhaps more than they have in the past . Yeah, i think its a good question because, you know, i think thats sort of think of it as, you know, white people cant write a review about a movie that deals with race or, you know, investigative books that look at i just read a book a couple of months ago by Jerry Mitchell that looked at sort of unsolved civil rieghts murder. [laughter] that book yeah, i thought that was fantastic. Scotts review of moonlight and how beautiful that review was. And thats a movie, experien experience so i think what sets these writers apart is that they do the work of just understanding the different issues and experiences and its not just like they hop in and write them that way. Its about listening to people, its about doing the reading and i still think about this jones quote from an event last year, maybe the year before where she said you know, you want to be a scientist you wouldnt be a scientist without studying science and yet we have people writing about race in this country that dont know a thing about race in this country. So its that sort of being rigorous what youre writing about, doing the research and homework and the reading and i think those are the things that sort of give you the ability to write about these things, to wright about experiences that are not your own. Even in my own writing i write gender a lot, and political, and how it affects their platforms and candidacies and i feel comfortable doing that only because especially when im writing, doing those work in stories, i spend a lot of time reading and listening to what people have already said and making sure im not, you know, describing something in a way that whatever sort of sub conscious biases i have. But i think its a muscle you have to work. You know, i think people often think because i am a human in the world, i therefore am able to write about any sort of experience, which is just not true. And in a way that and so you know, i just think its about putting a lot of effort in the work, to be sensible, thoughtful with how you approach the issues, especially if theyre not things that you have to think about in your daytoday. And assume your own experience is universal, that you i mean, its really incredible number of people who think because they havent experienced something themselves, it just doesnt happen. I think we are getting close to our wrapup time so im going to thank everyone for coming and invite everybody who i dont know, you didnt phone in, but who signed in and joined us to attend, more social distancing, special social distancing socials on tuesdays in the future youre watching book tv on cspan2 every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. Cspan2 created by americas Television Company as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Week nights this month were featuring book tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan2. Tonight, beginning at 8 eastern. Book tv has several programs with late author and columnist, william f buckley, jr. Enjoy book tv on cspan2. Good evening, everyone. My name is ike, i am the director of the Saratoga SpringPublic Library and im incredibly pleased to be hosting the very first saratoga book festival event, although id much rather do so in perfect and perhaps a different topic, im thrilled to be kicking off the festival. It my honor to