Which is almost certainly what would happen if, god forbid, a war did break out. We will welcome we are having trouble using linkedin. From thepresentative declaration declassification board. We will discuss declassification policy, in particular striking a balance between protecting classified material and ensuring documents can safely get their moment in the sun. Deferring to defer my Opening Statement. The chair hearing at 3 30, the senator has to go vote in between. Is it ok if i just give my time to the senator so he can open with some comments . That way he does not have to miss about and can chair his important hearing at 3 30 . Can i have a special fate a special fate special favor . Sen. Rubio absently. Do you want to say your comments absolutely. Do you want to say your comments so you do not miss your hearing . I hold this Intel Committee in high regard and recognize its Important Role in securing the security of citizens. I appreciate the consideration that you and senator warner provided in the timing. Thank you for the opportunity for d set declassification reform and having this opening open setting. Aware, senate bill 3733, declassification format, the senator and i worked on this issue for a long time. It is surprising to me that the end result is so straightforward and relatively simple, but it is to begin the process of modernizing declassification by designating the director of National Intelligence as responsible for promoting systems related to declassification. Though the bill itself rests within the jurisdiction of another committee, we have previously considered this bill as an amendment offered to the intelligence authorization act. I appreciate the discussion of this bill, which many of you have personally given to me on the floor and throughout the capital conflict it there is a recognition that the process that guides the release of declassified information are antiquated and unable to keep up with the overwhelming flood of digital data. Congress has been told repeatedly over the years that the system is unsustainable. Last year, the director of Security Oversight Office wrote that the current framework is unsustainable and desperately requires modernization. In 2016, the Public Interest declassification port posted that the classification system is no longer able to handle the current volume of information especially given the excess information. Four years later, there is little evidence that this project is on the path to be resolved. They no longer require classification and its impacts to to taxpayers is estimated to be 18 billion per year, and it denies Public Access to information used to hold the government accountable. The board notes, the overwhelm system hurts the policymakers. The senator approached me in late 2018, and asked me to join him in an effort to craft legislation to begin to solve the problem. While i indicate my great regard for members of this committee, i am not one of them. There might be a question of why this is an interest to me. The ability to save taxpayer dollars is of interest. To be more transparent to the American Public is of interest of to me. And for policymakers to have necessary Information Available to us, that is important to me. Protecting taxpayers to the tune of billions spent on classification and ensuring transparency from the federal toernment, and the ability do it without jeopardizing National Security, that is a priority. We have consulted with experts from the declassification board, Oversight Office, and national or National Archives, and other experts, and officials from our intelligence agencies, as well as staff from this Intelligence Committee. Technical solutions such as Machine Learning exists to facilitate bringing our learning into the 20 century. We know agencies are taking steps with some technology to address the issue, the effort that implement best practices is required. The final product adopts the key recognition from the latest report issued in may by the declassification board. Senator wyden and i are not under the pressure the impression that naming an agent will resolve every question of declassified information, but we authorityone with the being appointed is a good first step. Know there are other ideas to facilitate reform. I am pleased todays hearing will have ideas to address this problem of this magnitude. Research resources will be necessary to implement this. An ally inider me this endeavor. I have been pleased to join in this effort and im eager to work with members of this committee in achieving declassification reform long overdue and yet protects american citizens. I thank you for having this open hearing and i thank you and the Committee Members for their time and opportunity to be here today. Sen. Rubio thank you for being here. I will condense my Opening Statement in the interest of time. Congress established the Public Interest declassification board to advise the executive branch on identification of the view in relief of release of records. They released a report on reforming the process and recommended sweeping changes to the way we declassify records. We will look at our witness to explain these. The Intelligence Community agrees that reform is needed. The backlog of Historical Documents is large. The system is completely outdated and the standards are sometimes inconsistent throughout the National Security establishment. I am concerned they do not align with the current role, given that they have neither the authority or expertise to serve as the leader of declassification enterprise for for the entire government. They are not it should not be in a position to set declassification rules for the department of defense war plans, for nuclear programs, for example. Tolook forward to talking witnesses about the declassification process, including the prospects of achievable reform within the context of the limits of authority. I think the subject of this hearing allows us to emphasize a related point, the difference between a process of responsible deed classification declassification of seekers that do not need to be secret, and selfish and irresponsible leaks. You do not declassify things to keep things for people. Because you reveal how you learn about those things and the people in the entities you are correcting on we realized you have access to information and cut you off for more Important Information in the future. This is a reason why things are kept secret. That is balanced with the default position of transparency in government. We needed to have accountability that our system of government requires. There has to be balance between these equities, protecting the security of the American People through our ability to learn valuable information about potential adversaries with the need of the American People for transparency in everything the government does. I am very proud of this committee, that by and large, has been very responsible with the information we come across. It is fair to say this committee has never been a source of these sorts of things. But there are those who casually dismiss the responsibility of holding classified information. Have never sat through briefing or have been read into billiondollar programs that would leave our nation blind and deaf to the threats we face. They never met and heard about the brave men and women who risk their lives every day to prevent or next terrorist attack steal the plans for a deadly new weapons system. These are secrets that i iran and russia and others receive and they use that information to do us harm. These secrets need to stay secret but not forever. To ensure that those secrets can , doneen their day responsibly, it would build trust between the American People and their government. The colleagues make sure that happens in the Intelligence Community. Some unfortunately who have put their lives on the line have seen their secrets splash across the new york times, the washington post, just because a politician wanted to score cheap political points for their own benefit. Our people deserve better than that. They pay taxes so the government can provide for their common defense. You can make 10 times their salary working on something else. These people work for years to gain access to the secrets that make us safe from a terrorist attack. And oligarchs plans to steal an election. Decides they are above that mission and that scoring palooka points is a better mission, that trust is destroyed and the dollars would dissolve and it is no overstatement to say that people die. From Edward Snowden to a politician who wants to be the first to break news, we suffer for their selfish acts and who benefits . Maybe the politicians snag a few headlines for an interview on cable news but the real winner ultimately is our adversaries. I want to take a minute to thank professionals, on whose shoulders the declassification decisions rest. People whol group of have been a vital partner for this committee. We worked with the Intelligence Community to ensure we were doing no harm. All five volumes of the russian report passed through his shop for declassification review. We greatly appreciate his in their efforts to protect secrets and make sure the American People were able to see our work. I want to thank the senator for his perspective as an historian aremaking sure they protecting our investment in our Intelligence Community. Moran, who is here today, and senator wyden, who has been perhaps the leader on trying to reform the declassification process. Take you, senator moran, for being here. And we will let everyone know about the first expense with webex. We will do the best we can as we work through technical glitches. So, thank you to the vice chairman. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Friends for my taking on the issue. I think it is extraordinarily timely. I hope we get to hear from the congressman. We have a number of questions for them. I know that declassification is a bit more technical than some issues that we grapple with but it is fitting we should have an open session to discuss it. We should all agree that the declassification system of today is broken, outdated, slow, bulky, and hopelessly inadequate for the digital age. Agencies are using a fragmented and paperbased system that lacks the resources and technology to keep pace with the exploding volume of digital records. It leads to errors and puts classified records at risk. A quarter of a century ago, the Commission Led by a late senator patrick moynihan, a former member of this committee, found while secrecy is important for security operations, policy discussions, and weapons systems, he also found that excessive secrecy has significant negative consequence is. When the public cannot be engaged in an informed debate, extort nearly timely now in terms of election security, when policymakers are not fully informed, and government cannot be held accountable for the actions. Zapssive classification that truly must be kept. I agree with the chairman. Those critical secrets must be a greateronored in way. My fear is in todays digital age. The new solution seems much worse. The ease with which tens of millions of new got new documents are classified every year. I am anxious to hear from our witnesses on how the declassification system is functioning. I would like the chairman to recognize the important work of senator wyden, who, without his assistance, i am not sure we would be at this point. Fore the balance of my time opening comments. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to thank my cosponsor, senator moran, out the door, and chairman rubio, open hearings are rare and i appreciate him doing this. Let me start by saying that when our countrys safety is at stake , there is a need to classify documents essential to protecting american lives. What there is no need for is a dilapidated, outofcontrol classification system that costs taxpayers more than 18 billion a year. Colleagues, cannot even distinguish between what should and should not be kept secret. When it comes time to declassify a document, the agencies have to even havend do not the ability to communicate about it securely online. Heres what happened. Intelligence officials have to print out the documents. They put them in a bag and drive around from agency to agency. Traffic,et stuck in they better bring a bag lunch. It means intelligence officials. Arch around it might make a funny saturday night live skit but it is an. Bsurd waste of taxpayer money documents are piling up in the secret databases. The system is choking on itself and it gets worse each year as a flood of new information gets classified visually. As the chairman said, there is widespread consensus, there is a serious problem here. Widespread consensus that modernizing the declassification system is the only solution. There are a lot of Good Solutions ideas on how to do it. The only thing missing is for somebody to take responsibility to get it done. And is what the senator are doing. Bipartisan legislation that would implement the recommendations and the director of National Intelligence to take the leadership role. They are already already responsible for the protection of methods. We are already responsible for andloping uniform policies solutions to the longstanding problem are at hand. Chairman rubio, i would like to impart this to you because i think you raise a central concern that i have heard about the department of defense. Urging doese are not put dni in charge of secrets aret dod declassified. It is about modernizing systems for declassifying information that the department of defense and other agencies have already longerned are no declassified. Thank you again for your courtesy and the opportunity to be here. Thank you. Welcome. We open it up for you for any Opening Statement you might have. You, members of the committee. It is an honor to appear before you on this panel for perspective on classification reform. I am grateful to discuss it, one of the most often overlooked and misunderstood areas of the program. I hope to give you a better understanding of the landscape and perspective on proposed. Overnmentwide reform the committee is likely aware that u. S. Government declassification review processes require significant the resource for the classification is a daunting requests,ocessing which some estimates exceed 4 million alone. The federal agencies need and support classification reform. Must occur to meet demand, more transparency for the public while transparent i recognize the critical importance should be transparent with the American People. We worked diligently to support declassification for National Intelligence information, not only from the public, but also from congressional committees, including but not limited to argentinian human rights abuses. Information about the use of surveillance. Five volumes of this committees report. In afacilitated a review wide range of topics, including materials of the 50th anniversary. I see elements continue to , mandatoryusands declassification review each year. These effortsth because they are important to the understanding of challenges facing our nation. While while we continue to and systems,sses larger investments in people and technology are required to seek change. In this review of the Legislation Service come multiple concerns. Any proposed reform must be consistent with the application from unauthorized disclosure. Department of defense and energy, which has significant the legislation informed requires more to understand and account for all equity. I look forward to more discussion on the price tag of a kabul shrink the objectives. Concern is the recommendation to make the government wide recommendation for declassification, responsible for all policies and processes of the u. S. Government. We believe such an approach takes it well beyond its intended role. The dni is delegated authority from the president , as are other agencies in accordance with second order 1, 2, 5, 6. The declassification responsibilitys and competencies apply to intelligence and intelligencerelated information. We authority generally does not extend beyond this. The role for declassification is not only resource intensive but also supposes one is responsible for declassification and all is treated the same. The assumption is false and will likely lead to unintended consequence. Many agencies have delegated classification authorities specific to holdings. Created, classified, and held by the entire government. Charging with this broader mandate would have negative consequences and distract from our core mission of activities. The expanded role is also in conflict with and contrary to the constitution is a small body, rather than a large operational organization. The proposed legislation describes the proposed legislation to reform. Suggest thosemust who have individual experience and authority over the classified information. Consistent with concerns outlined, we believe the dni is not wellsuited to Share Committee for government declassification efforts. While we would welcome further discussion on executive committee on declassification, we recommend the Committee Also engage with other federal agencies with longstanding declassification programs proposals for declassification reform. In the mist of governments reforms, we must not changed the way it is changing fundamentally. It is growing exponentially as agencies produce more and more information. With a flood of information, we agree that investments in i. T. Will be required for the growing digital age, along with many years worth of analog and digital holdings. There are opportunities to apply advanced technologies such as Machine Learning to augment and incorporating new technology would produce laborintensive steps. It is important to note that human expertise, routinely validating, will always be necessary. Coordination on declassification efforts throughout the u. S. Government would be something extremely difficult to do, even in the much smaller group. Get all declassification stakeholders on the same net same platform so coordination can be smooth and secure. Most can have their own systems. Has been a together similar goalsk throughout the u. S. Government. For thediligently review process. Asked ending that without the instructor to support it would not work. Challenges to reform are immense but we agree that the need for reform cannot be ignored. We provide the obstacles for making declassification, we look forward to working with the committee on ways in which we can contribute to meaningful reforms. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. Thank you. Congressman . There we go. Is that better . Thank you, senator rubio, and chairman. I want to thank you to be able to testify on what is usually neglected issue, modernizing the declassification system. I would like to thank staff for their assistance and to be able to appear by video. I speak to you as a member of the public declassification board. Provided previously more detailed statements. We recognize the role we can centers should play cosponsored introducing declassification reform act of 2020. The recent report to the president was entitled modernization of declassification in the declassification system. To modernize the declassification systems. We have written five report to the president in the past 12 years. Each recommends new policies to address them. Of thezation declassification system is imperative. It is a necessity for National Security and our democracy to operate effectively in the digital age. Our first report into thousand eight, since then, the government has made little progress. We purposefully designed our most recent to share a roadmap to overcome individual agency in action. And to have them be a governmentwide solution. We stress critical importance of sustained leadership and driving change by having an executive agent oversee reforms. Without the integrated systems allowch approach would for effective use of advanced technologies and lead to declassifying volumes and data. Recommendations align with the information modernization intelligence strategies. And to improve and form performance and reduce cost. The recommendation to reform the United States government structure and operations in cyberspace. There is widespread agreement that these cannot effectively handle the volume of digital data generated every day. Cannot handle the volume of declassification review. The processes remain much the same as what they were developed in the Truman Administration in an era where secret was on paper and secured in safes. Without reform, it will be far worst worse in the future. In 2012, one intelligent it Intelligence Agency estimated approximate one terabyte of data every 18 months classified. This is the equivalent of approximately one trillion pieces of paper. The agency estimated that using current manual declassification, it would take 2 million employees one year to review this much information. This is one agency eight years ago. The problem has grown exponentially since 2012. Declassification system is about to collapse, security operation. The president posited nominee to lead this testified that over classification was making it more difficult to support classification not only affects it can lead to limited innovation, diminished private sector and reduce private and dollar private technologies. Agencies let us reevaluate the needs of customers. Consolidated the security classification guide classification decisions insured decisions aligned with customer needs. Use are critical to the security of the nation. They can and must be used they are only focused on filling their own information. It leads to added costs and reduce deficiencies. Agentommend an executive to oversee reform. First, the executive agent has the right to oversee two processes across the agencies, including precise declassification guidance and standards that can be used across agencies. Has canve agent advanced technology solution, and coordinate technological acquisition. We overcame roadblocks. It is a proven leader in developing and managing Technological Solutions and acquisitions to support operations across agencies and lead to the development of the employment of intelligence. Ommunity and technology it manages to join worldwide. It is a leader in overseeing and , artificialearch intelligence, and other Machine Learning technologies. The national, central agency, and . Other private sector partners. 2019 intelligence strategy recognize the leadership role in getting the government to do things differently by increasing coordination, and increasing transparency. We thought it was the clear choice. Leadership in establishing a provide can also opportunities to gain efficiencies. Increased cost savings by expanding infrastructure and Data Strategy already in place to improve classification and declassification. The declassification system can no longer keep pace with what was submitted 25 years ago and the exponential growth will cause us to collapse without radical change. The impact of a failure to will be felt widely. Recommendations and possible solutions but they have not yet led to an effort to radically rethink what declassification means in the digital age. Out impact National Security and democracy. Our board remains hopeful that change is coming. Senatesident signed the bill last year that requires the department of defense to report to declassification processes and what it is doing to reduce declassification backlogs. This system will not work in the digital age. I appreciate the statement that the system is outdated, recognizing that there is a problem is a step forward. We support the senators reasoning for last night passes declassification and are grateful for the committee to hold a hearing on the issue. These are important steps forward. There are important steps that lead to reform. We are reforming acquisitions and policies and practices for reduced cost. Integrating the use of advanced technologies across agencies to address mission imperatives. Our Mission Report in the executive branch or through legislation are the next steps. This will bring needed experience and expertise and will facilitate the development of a of an approach across agencies, facilitate advanced Information Technology into a new classification and declassification processes. Let me express my appreciation to the committee again for this incredible for this critically important topic. It is important for transparency and democracy. The time for action is now. We must move beyond saying it is too costly or that it is something another agency should be responsible for. The opportunities for reform, it offers possible solutions for the governments to engage stakeholders in address this challenge and identify solutions and implement them. Thank you for your interest and support. I look forward to answer your questions and continuing the discussion. Thank you both for being here. The vice chairman went to vote. I will go when he comes back. Senator feinstein is still getting ready. Are next. , you are you ready . I am. Thank you for letting me go. I have a couple of questions. Clearly, as my former colleague remarks, in his Congress Asked us to come back on classification. Over classify we now. I think it is more likely than not the default decision if you do not have a lot of time to think about classifying and that there may be something in there that possibly should declassified at a higher level. It goes there and it goes therefore a long time. I do not know how much of it need to establish. We need to get back to where the asssification is as open possible and available in the future as quickly as possible. Question for you know, the pentagon leaders themselves have been pressing the pentagon leaders themselves have been pushing aggressively for this. Secretary of the air force, general heighten, vice chair of the joint chiefs of staff pointed out how hard it is to make the case publicly without access to information that is widely available now particularly the overhead architect information, so much of it is available at the commercial level, if not absolutely a level at the commercial level and to make the case for Space Command or to make the case senator more and and i serve on the Defense Appropriating Committee has challenge is there are things that committee needs to know that truly arent at the intel level but at a level where members of congress should have more access than they have now so the question is what kinds of things would make it easier to explain the needs of Space Command and other defense needs if they were classified at a level beyond the current classification level. Thank you for the question. I can speak intelligently what Space Command, space force is doing as a dod equity, but if you are concerned about classified things i share that concern with you and you have to understand we are working on updating our security classification to be more tailored for specific information so it is not at the secret level as a question, we are preparing better training for our workforce and i have utmost confidence we will get to the point that over classification will not be an issue. Part of my question was a is so much available at the commercial level now and we wind up classifying government documents that are widely available at almost the level we have in other ways but people are reluctant if it is a classified document to use it and dont have time to go somewhere else to find it. A lot of people in the covid19 period figured out there is lots of unclassified material they can access from home, some agencies are better prepared than others to work in that unclassified space but given your declassification background, what have you done to assist various agencies as to how they could use more unclassified documents during the time they were working remotely . That also would be a question for you. Thanks, i have not been personally involved with that. The ic works at the classified level the vast majority of the time so not only during covid19 but preabca24 it is difficult for any officer of the United States to work in an unclassified setting. People working from home at a time the headquarters was man down. We have had people working from home but cant have been working on declassification initiatives or requests. The case, a lot of people found a way to use declassified commercially available material that allowed them to do most of what they were doing with classified material and your answer is you have given no advice in that. John tierney, on the move toward more declassification from your oversight, you are looking at that, what have you seen that you are most encouraged about and what have you seen that you are most concerned about as we try to get our hands around this whole issue of overclassifying . What we have seen his lack of ability to work inside the agencies and find standards that can apply for everybody on that. We are not asking to go in and tell people what they will declassify or not classify but to make sure everybody is working on updating those to the extent of making sure they are. No activity going on in that realm. Everyone says it is too expensive or too much for us to do when somebody has got to do it for it to be done at all, incredibly expensive to not have it done, some 18 billion a year being spent and we are not on top of the issue. We need the leadership and the set of standards while leaving the individual agencies the opportunity to take that. Thank you, senator. We will do 5minute rounds next. I understand we are doing it at this time. It for 2 senator feinstein. Im still taking my time. If it is your time i will take it back. I will yield time. If i could just, theres a lot of detail here but if i could pull us back to 30,000 foot level or above, i am not exactly sure there is a common understanding of the problem we are trying to solve in the classification system and the declassification system. I start from the premise that Public Information should be available unless theres a good reason not to make it available. There are 4 Million People with security clearances in the United States and it seems to me not only do we overclassify, so burdensome to come up with a method of declassification that we need to think over again what is the goal here . We all understand being consumers of classified information the importance of protecting things like sources and methods but just like under the freedom of information act it is too easy for government officials to hide their mistakes, prevent public scrutiny and accountability for their actions on behalf of the taxpayer and i wonder to start with you, to get your perspective and feedback about how to sexualize the problem we are trying to solve and how to reconcile that with another important law which is freedom of information act with presumption of openness with clear criteria to keep it secret or keep it in the hands of the government. Rather than making it available. Is that a contrast to make . Should both systems be focused on the same goal . Tough question. Appreciate their same frustrations when i was on the Intelligence Committee in the house with the Oversight Committee on National Security. You are never sure about anything they are classifying and sometimes you do get the motion they are classifying because they are not sure, i dont have a magic bullet on that, something that has to be done across agencies. We get a working group to gather, a reason we have the executive committee working with executive agents in our recommendations, identifying, over classifying things, setting standards so that we dont get into the situation. There will be a decision the communities make and congress to assess and make sure the executive on that, we dont have a magic bullet, to classify another, nobody seems to be doing it yet. That is where lack of leadership is to leave the project. A legislative branch, responsibility, exclusively an executive branch. An executive situation responsible for it. Congress has oversight and serves the underlying premise of transparency with defense mechanism, those things that are not classified but take a lot of leeway and this moves forward. And classification does not continue to broaden application. The construct or reform with regard to the classification, not something that gets it right. Help us get our arms around that. Items that shouldnt be classified. The construct of having leadership, moving toward that goal or standard application as possible, and the Intelligence Community, some of that information, that is how you provide leadership across agencies. The actual constructive classification. I yield back. You did not vote on the last one. Let me start with you. This committee wrestled with what i think is an analogous problem, and the backlog on clearances down over 700,000, 200,000, the trusted workforce 2. Oh. One, is the Lessons Learned from security clearance reform may not be as familiar but what does the declassification system look like in a digital era. All kind of paperbased. I will start with mister to me. The declassification, the need for technology to identify, Machine Learning and put together to work on that. Someone experienced in doing that in terms of this idea and the first part of the question. You may not be as familiar but we worked closely with the administration on a security clearance reform process. It has taken us three years, there are some similarities, i dont know if you observed any of that. Not familiar but i will take note that i had a security clearance serving on the Intelligence Committee of the house but on the side of the process, about to say last week they finished it. How much is that reform playing out . Do you want questions or analogy to security clearance reform or the declassification system or metrics in a digital age. Security classification reform but issues, clearance investigation and access to classified information are fairly uniform, classification system, they are not, the departments and agencies, developed their own security classification is not the same. On the digital front i know there are multiple working groups that are already dealing with these issues and have been over the last few years and we are continuing to do that hopefully as covid19 finishes as we get back to business but the director already has the authority to take over for reclassification. Directed by the president to establish standards for working principles. They should be the ones, not to shift those responsibilities to another agency. When we are talking about the digital era, is there a bias towards over classification, so much Digital Product at this point. Any guidepost on how to stop that proclivity . You had so much data it is easier to classify than sort through . That is a hard question to answer. So much out there and you have humans making their own decisions whether something should be classified or not, basing their decisions on their own experience as well as following specific security classification guidance on what should or should not be classified but i agree we should get automation in this area, cut down the classification issues we have seen over the years. There are some efforts underway to come up with some kind of program after typing, classified or not and mark a document for you. And we made some progress in that. Senator rubio making his opening comments and singled out new members as the philosopher scholar senator sass. It is unfortunate you begin with an insult but thank you for sharing today, thank you for your work on this. To folks, thanks for your work in an area that is important and sounds like a niche topic but incredibly important. I want to associate myself with comments about the risks of over classification because it fosters public distrust. All of us who serve on this committee appreciate the work, all the hardworking men and women who labor in the shadows and their families dont know what they are going through or sacrificing, we value declassified product we get on a regular basis. Pushback a tiny little bit against your last answer, people are making decisions about classification based on individual histories, making decisions based on structural incentives where if you over classify something no way you get in trouble. If you wonder classify something, the easy move, risk of risk, the easy move, you cannot decide what to do. One of the things your group has done so much important work on, for the broader public to understand what problem, to talk about how we spent 18 billion, declassification systems, with a regular consumer of intelligence, and instead of wrestling the hard dividing line what should or shouldnt be declassified, what your report shows, millions of pages of documents in the Reagan Administration that should have been declassified, they require manual review. The bias toward and inertia, and the manual review is required, they get declassified. That fosters public distrust. I would like to ask you, thank you for all your hard work, as you arrived at the recommendation to make the od and i the executive agent for declassification, the process of how you landed there, what other alternatives you considered, the dni is best or least agent to be responsible here. That was directed at congressman tierney. Prioritization is very important, glad you brought that up. The last report we recommended the declassification center, agencies to be reviewed sooner than others and no interest in seeing, very little interest in seeing and the prioritization to declassify formation, the historical significance are certainly important for advanced technology to assist but it is costly what is going on, 18 billion are already being spend on an annual basis on that. 46 million pages in 2017 declassify 2023 cents per page. We recognize what the expense was, the need for prioritization and keep coming back, somebody driving the train, there had to be leadership here. Everybody recognizes the problem. Technology involved in the infrastructure architecturally. It needs to be taken cooperatively, nobody wants to take the time on it. We did look at the group and decided whether or not it would be a group that is appropriate to take. It was only 18 people, to do many things that they put on it. It supports several executive orders, one 356, classify National Security, one 2829, the security program, declassified National Security program, and so on and so on, 18 people and the budget of 360 lacks year, 30 million increased over the past five years. To find an agency that didnt have the power and respect in the community and that came through the office, they command the respect needed to say to other agencies, to focus on it and get an answer, need to work on identifying technology, the Machine Learning, someone who had experience doing it, we didnt have any organization like that and some of the problems mentioned earlier on that, other agencies without having the authority for other people to do that and those things were important, we need somebody i will cut in and say thank you. I need to give the microphone back to the chairman. I would note, asking about how the pilot project, Artificial Intelligence for declassification process. Senator wyden, i want to mention one issue the chairman raised and do some research during the break. The reform, senator moran and i are urging does not put the dni in charge of deciding what dod secrets are declassify in, the same principle is true of department of energy secrets, state department secrets, those agencies are going to decide what they are going to declassify. It is about modernizing the system for declassify adding information these agencies would use and determine are no longer classified. That is an important issue and we will have a dialogue on this. We very much want to work than a Bipartisan Coalition in this committee to modernize the bureaucracy and we proposed an approach that makes sense. Mister tierney has a chance to respond, i think it would be good to have Mister Tierney paint for the committee a picture of the declassification process 5, 10 years from now if this committee, the Bipartisan Coalition for reform, that will be withheld from the American People simply because you didnt get a Bipartisan Coalition to modernize bureaucracy. Certainly wont be a pretty picture. We dont know how many document agencies create and if we dont know that we do know that the figure continues to grow exponentially. I cited an example in my remarks, to declassify digital data, just arent there. Here is an example that will have significant historical interest, all the president ial records at the conclusion of each administration. Between one and 2 in a 12 year span of the Ronald Reagan and george w. Bush administration, but four terabytes of the Clinton Administration post emails, 80 terabytes on the george w. Bush administration eight years later and an astonishing 250 terabytes of data from the Obama Administration including unstructured data. In one category you take that and blow it out among different agencies and aspects you get a picture of how ugly it is going to be, you dont have Machine Learning and technology involved. The question of essentially how you handle this. How important, very important senator moran and i give the declassification reform, not a stovepipe in different parts of the us government. Very important, so many agencies in so many aspects that it is almost impossible to do it. There is one example, somebody involved in the equities of another agency, doing it manually from one point to another, physically one place to another or somebody visiting in a secure setting to do it gets completely out of control and moves on from there. One last question if i might, Mister Tierney. This is a common refrain, lets look somewhere else to do this important job of declassification and he seems to think the National Center are able to play the role to bring about declassification reform. We were concerned these offices dont have the kind of bureaucratic muscle to get federal agencies to integrate and modernize their declassification system. What is your take on that . You can say why did they say the information Oversight Office is not doing that but when it comes down to it, one is the Authority Issue and one of the things people of iso do, carry their authority when it says something should be done and people should Work Together to get it done by a certain time in a certain way, not equipped in that manner and took a heavy workload in a budget that is shrinking instead of growing and it doesnt have Technical Expertise or access to advanced technology that is already in place at Intelligence Community agencies unlike the od and i doesnt have the experience of developing or deploying or managing multiagency enterprise systems that is run by od ny. The experience managing the network, the National Archives only has two terminals in the entire agency, does not have the experience and focus on protecting sources and methods, something that was highlighted in 2018, and we take on this leadership role and has a good say to protect sources and methods to do that. The director does not have the same ability for all those agencies and other policies, would be in conflict with the main Oversight Mission so we have had discussions with historians and researchers, records managers and other agencies, found the National Archives is not the executive agent, the reform of declassification and we have tried to have discussions of this with the folks at the od and is office and we are open to more discussions with them on that because all the things i mentioned, i am not aware of an agency that has it. I am well over my time, thank you both for scheduling this hearing and giving us the opportunity to talk about it. An open setting. Senator heinrich . Representative tierney, welcome. I want to thank not only you but your Public Interest declassification Board Members for your most recent report on modernizing and reforming our declassification system. I worry about the state of inaction in this field. As you mentioned, the lack of reform means we will spend an outrageous amount of money, 18 billion a year or more on a declassification system. Many say modernization is too costly, theres a risk of not making these investments now in a modernized system. What investments are needed to modernize declassification and is there a potential for actual cost savings in the future based on a more streamlined Technology Dependent modernized system . Thank you, nice to see you again as well. Significant savings on this, this may underestimate the cost to the American Public at the present time. We need to evaluate those costs. We cant continue the way we are going. We need to get in Formation Technology architecture that will be somewhat costly, more Machine Learning with pilot programs out there that we can learn from and those will be costing but one time cost Going Forward versus this continually growing cost and the cost of not getting information out whether it is the Space Command or other Government Agencies or access to the public with their need to know and congresss need to know. The ability to access is huge and the outlay of this technology and Machine Learning aspects may be significant. Over time there would be a big cost saver to get information to the people when they need it. One of the things i find ironic, this is a committee who really understands the utility of using Artificial Intelligence so the same set of eyes going over the same product over and over because humans dont do well in that environment. Weeding that down to a few documents that need to be looked at, in our entirety we understand the power of that change how we evaluate intelligence product. How can we scale up those pilots you mentioned in a i Machine Learning and take the same deal for utilizing those tools and declassification you see in terms of analysis of other intelligence projects . I sound like a broken record, Intelligence Community, we have to learn from them and build on them, then make sure we are not duplicating what we do, we are not giving the same technology twice and making sure when we do get it it is useful to everybody across the way. That takes leadership, a person to say this is what we are going to do. We suggested the executive agent, those are the important factors, to get those things done in a way that is not duplicating cost and energy. The new commander of Space Command testified over classification is making it difficult for Space Command can you talk about how over classification affect operations in the missions, not just the publics right to know but day today risk scenario. I am looking for some notes. It is not just talked about that but his predecessor on that and talk about duplicating things, as a serious effect and those are the best examples we have. Let me see if i can find that. General haydn was talking about information in the defense department, unbelievably ridiculous like so many else, have an effect on costs and innovation and private sector and all those things were impacted so the classification and programs sle classy ones like the defense program, not just the dollar cost but the cost in innovation to impact to carry on in all fields. Are you on . Are you still with us . Senator king . Okay. I come at this unburdened by a great deal of knowledge but are we swamped by declassification because we are trying to declassify everything . What about a system that says we are going to work on declassification of things people ask for . Seems that cuts the universe of declassification down considerably, or are we swamped in terms of what people are asking for . There are certain statutes that require things to be declassified on timetables. I think you enter the money when you talk about prioritization, a system put in place that prioritizes what we need for the inability for the private sector. Take those at the top of the list. On the same line everything is declassified after 5 or 10 years and the burden is on the agencies to declassify. It would be an automatic declassification and the burden would be on those who did the classification in the first place to keep this classified or let it go along with these other million pages. I will leave it to my friends to respond with the obvious intelligence reaction, the lack of manpower and activity to review to see if they should do the decent declassification status to be released on that, 50 years after the incident and the fbi and seeing that way. And that was a great way to do us. And my experience in management, my management principle is one probe to choke and one of the problems with this. They are accountable for backlogs. Who was should it be . The president has already authorized the ndc to coordinate the executive branch on declassification activities. The ntc has been given authority to streamline the declassification process as well as prioritize what should or should not be reviewed by agencies. They should continue the process, we are working in multiple interagency groups for the past few years to specifically address the prioritization issue to get to what the American People want to know as opposed to reviewing meaningless information no one cares about. Our agency was spending so much time reviewing in the first place. Thank you. I want to express my appreciation to senator wyden and senator more and for leading on this issue and thank you for holding this. Some people saying you have brandy and a cigar. Somewhere in the bowels of the capital in an undisclosed location. I defended you. Thank you. Is there anybody else online . A lot of topics were covered. If i could briefly ask you to explain the methodology of the report, staff looked at it again, who did you interview, the data, and the recommendation . Looks like a lot of work. I will be happy to respond to you in a longer list, to give you a good idea of the methodology. Trying to understand what the reforms would cost because we shouldnt do it. From what you heard, broadbased support and the system we have in place is broken and needs to be modernized and brought into the 21st century to utilize all the technology that is available to us. And someone who has control on this for implementing the plan, driving the investment, the debate on the topics and runs it, it would appear in order to design and strive the investment you need a Financial Investment at least in the design phase. The question i have is the resources you have now, the resources you have available now would not be enough to require Additional Resources if you are tasked with this. I would say yes. The estimate of 18. 39 billion for 2017, does it include the cost of evaluating documents for public release or is that number reflected on maintaining current classified 3 and a half Million Dollars and what is needed to do those types of things, the National Archive leaders, this information historians, researchers, Civil Society organizations, record managers and other agencies, offered to meet with them once we heard the resistance on that. And National Declassification Center, and and we will be happy to go into that. Not that it wouldnt be money or an investment but it is not plug and play no matter who gets the assignment to implement and at that point frontend investments and on the back. In terms of the notion, i want to accurately represents what the odi recommendation is, it is not against reform or the notion of executive agents but a level of discomfort in particular with designing a system other agencies that have authority over would abide by. You are designing a system to live by. Is that an accurate assessment of resistance for the recommendation with the executive agents. Part of the point is transferring the authorities that exist, to another agency makes sense. If the issue is resources and money, why cant those agencies be given the same resources being proposed to the dni. Not suggesting what is needed but agreeing significant reform is necessary in this area but working towards that in the executive branch. Cover that in fairly good ground and so many things the National Declassification Center dont have in terms of deploying and managing enterprise systems, securing communications, protecting sources and methods. It doesnt have the stature or the ability to corral agencies and has an Oversight Mission so it is not authorized by the president to do this. And it should be the one with the experience, that is exercised and shown to be so effective in other settings outside the Intelligence Community. What it boils down to is widespread agreement and someone needs to be reformed, who is the right entity to be responsible for designing and implementing it and maintaining is on an ongoing basis and in an internal perspective for jurisdictional grounds, this committee will not be the sole place that will have oversight but strong bipartisan widespread support for pursuing, this report certainly gives us a baseline upon which to work and flushed out to the public hearing with outstanding topics of where the options are, i thank you both for being willing to come online and be part of us today. There may be some followup questions, and some people may not come over today but i thank you for being part of this and our hearing is adjourned, thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] today is the nineteenth anniversary of the 9 11 terrorist attack beginning at 8 30 eastern on cspan2 from the 9 11 Memorial Plaza in new york city and 9 am eastern on cspan 3, the observance ceremony from the pentagon and at 9 45 eastern on cspan the flight 93 National Memorial in shanksville, pennsylvania. Live coverage of the nineteenth anniversary of the 9 11 terrorist attacks on cspan, cspan2, and cspan 3, online, cspan. Org or listen live with the free cspan radio apps. Heres a look at some other events we are covering friday. At noon eastern on cspan the house Intelligence Committee holds a hearing on Us Saudi Arabia relations. At 7 00 pm republican senator Susan Collins in a debate with the three candidates who are challenging her in maines u. S. Senate race. On cspan2 a house science su