Institute of native american studies. Author of three previous books. West of the revolution. Thank you so much for joining us and welcome. Let me think the atlanta history center. Unworthy republic challenges the idea that some histories have the expulsion of the how much land first that they own in the southeast in the decades before the 1830s. They are a huge amount of half of alabama and two thirds of what became mississippi about a fifth of georgia. And its not just about how much land they own. But how much valuable the land was probably in the entire world. At the time. It covered the entire United States. We think of it as a southern story. And it mostly was. The indian people in the north who were removed as well. They are much smaller. By the early 19th century. You do cover a number of other tribes. I know that it is different from tribe to tribe and state to state. What kind of autonomy do they head in the south. What kind of autonomy do they head in the south. It was also contested. Its still contested to this day. Until a series of court cases and really sovereign people. The only limitation being they cannot sell their lands to a foreign power. And all other ways they were fully sovereign people. They have elections may have Court Systems and constitutions. So just in the assembly of the United States. Thats how they were in the early 19th century. Before the drive to dispossess. Since the jeffersonian air. Can you give us an overview of how they lived with that approach. We also call this indian policy. This was a federal policy right up to the removal act. And it was asthma centric sometimes wellintentioned sometimes not. But also the ultimate goal for the federal government was to civilize these people. That is to teach them english, to turn them into good christians. To make them farm in the same way that white farmers did. To give up the seasonal hunt. To dress like white people. They always determined into good u. S. Citizens. And this was the policy. It was a policy that native people pushed back on in many ways they also embraced parts of it. Sometimes they did that strategically in order to make their way in the shadow of new republic. With the election of Andrew Jackson in 1828. It was a game changer in that policy. They solve the indian question by pushing indians east of the west rather than the mississippi. This was presented as a humanitarian explanation. What evidence did they head for this and how was that framed. This is a fascinated part of the story. I should preface it by saying people have been dispossessed of their land for the first moment that they sent set foot on the cap continent and the founding of the republic in 1830 lots of native people were there. Into the removal. It was passed in may of 1830. There was no formal consistent federal policy to dispossess native people. It really wasnt a significant moment in the history of relations between native people and the United States. But to get this act through congress applicants needed to find alice in the north. They cant simply say we want their lands in alabama and mississippi. They said this was the best thing for them in you as a congressman had really cared about native people and their welfare in their future than you would support this policy. The keep piece of evidence which they presented in the they were driven in the popular press. The populations were diminishing if they were to remain they would go extinct. And so they pointed to the significant decrease in the native population which certainly have occurred. Everyone knew that. That the populations had diminished. But the dynamics of that played complicated. The best evidence shows that in the early 19th century the populations in the United States were stable and perfect perhaps even growing. They said this over and over again. They were frustrated that they couldnt get this message out. They found some letters writing to congress for the president. And saying you keep repeating this over and over again. That were diminishing but we are not. We may be small in number but we are growing population and we want to stay where we are. It is the voice of the native. Those who were diplomats printing pamphlets. Against indian removal. It is well known that indian removal as it was so gently called by jackson was his signature policy but what was new to me was the kind of arguments that were for an against expulsion. There was opposition to indian removal who was aligned in that opposition and how organized was it . Obviously the most fervent operations was in that community. Is not to say that native people were unanimous. They just simply wanted to cut their losses. Didnt they didnt think it was a just policy necessarily but they fell in fact given the tremendous pressure that they were on and the squatters that were moving in and the fact that state and federal governments were not protecting them in any way they were encouraging them to steal their land and property the best thing to do was to cut their losses and leave. The vast majority of people in fact wanted to stay. They were deeply rooted in the land they were very practical reasons for why they wanted to stay and then they also had some deeper connection to the land. Their ancestors were buried here. And they wanted to stay here. They did find allies among missionaries who lived among them and also the church based groups in the north. This was a single most controversial issue to come before the public. And it prompted the First Campaign to congress with thousands and thousands of americans in the north who drafted positions with both men and women and that was novel at the time because women were not seem to be appropriate participants. They drafted the petitions. And deeply they were critical positions to Congress Asking the native people to stay in their home. They were condemning the northern hypocrisy. I think from 1825. Saint if you want to make indian citizens. They would be nets. And the expansion of slavery. It was really intertwined. In some anyways and as we talked about. The black belts. The fertile soil that runs that way. And its the traditional homelands of the creek. Planters wanted to they had experience with moving people because they had been engaged in the trans atlantic trade slave. And then the interstate slave trade. But also, they were used two commanding people so to have people of cover color that is indigenous americans. Not under their thumb was an insult to white supremacy. I think that was also very much a part of their antagonism and hostility to the native people. There were threats to succeed. And also and then the indian removal act. This is thanks to that three fifths clause. They soon realize they are going to need the government to forcibly remove tens of thousands of native people. Did anyone in jacksons administration question it . Youre right. This is the great irony that we have that southern politicians and the loudest one in georgia. They are champion the states right. They need the help of the federal government. West of the mississippi. To supervise this operation. There were a few of folks and holdovers from the Previous Administration but jackson quickly forced them out there were congressmen certainly in both parties who oppose indian removal. A tremendous amount of pressure on them. There are stories of the congressman in pennsylvania who has said that jackson went around and threaten the political career and said you know im going to have the end of your career. The congressman reports this threat was as frightening. There is a tremendous amount of arm twisting. Its a mere five votes. It really did just barely squeak through. They also needed bankers in new york city and boston and as it turns out you trail the money to bank roll this expulsion and you referred to them as the northern equivalent. That is one of the revelations of your book. Following how the money was made and spent. It was one powerful player that comes up. Why were they critical to the expulsion. This is the most surprising parts of the story i think that i stumbled across. I just kept following the trails. He was probably the central player in wall street. He was born and raised in connecticut and then moved to new york city in the second decade of the 19th century. It was really emerging. I kind of got in on the ground floor. And then they have have the most important financiers. 1820s he was busy insuring and financing. They knew the south at least from a distance and then saw this opportunity emerging in 1830 that they recognize it was going to be a tremendous amount of extremely valuable land. He wanted to get his hands on it. He formed a joint stock company. He wasnt alone by was not alone by the way. Every single nature in philadelphia in new york was involved in speculating a plan. They bought vast quantities. In the amount of land they bought in mississippi. It is right in the most fertile land in the state. And then they switched it for an enormous profit. Thirty times but they had been invested. There is also a speculating and investigating. It is just the wild. Of expectation. 53,000 people were in in god ferment lottery. Were talking about 4. 2 million acres. They did not want to leave. What did the millions of people have. The particulars there vary from nation to nation. Each treaty was distinct. I have a legal technicality that made a difference in how the story unfolded. And the end result was saint but generally speaking these lands were flooded with hundreds of thousands of dollars they did not want to part with their land. And then the game was to separate these people from their lands. They knew that they could later flip the land for an enormous profit. There was different strategies they captured the indians. They chain them up and say were not going to for you. They beat them. Or sometimes they would seize it. And then go before a judge. The judge would say this is on the up and up. They hired impersonators. In the chickasaw indians at the time some of them were literally close to starvation so they would show up and give me 10 if you go before this judge and say that you indeed are such and such a person even if youre not. Sometimes the same in the into the hundreds of times. Probably the worst of it was in alabama right across the chattahoochee river. The stories are just incredible that you tell in the book. They drag the chains right through some these fields. A positive right up to the porch where the or the doorstep of other people. Some people leaving their home i was just a disgrace. But this is a pivotal time. Also one for the young republic with the administrative muscles. One of the tramps is tracking the government accountant. How are those limitations played out. It is a tremendous issue. Theres about 80,000 people in the federal government that wanted to deport which doesnt sound like a lot, it doesnt sound like a lot and 24 century terms. It was a huge operation. For a very small young republic that they head about eight or 9,000 employees. In 7,000 of them worked for the coast off they were overwhelmed with the logistics. It was a humanitarian operations. In the sense that they are not moving soldiers around who are cooperating and willingly moving in the direction you tell them to. There are families and elderly folks. And so they are trying to move them. Over the thousand miles to the west. They dont know where theyre going. They get caught in severe winter storms. Which leaves them shivering in the cold for weeks on end. They are completely overwhelmed. They have the capabilities. They dont really care about much. These are not voters and there are people of color there is a certain disregard i think at the end of the day. It doesnt matter all that much to most of the federal officials. That these people are suffering with. Just to get one quick and simple while over a thousand parts that are stranded on the banks of the arkansas river. In the winter of 1833. Most of them dont have it closed to keep them warm. The steam boats are steamboats are not where they should be. There are few to surprised to see these people. Some of them sit there for six to eight weeks. Waiting for the river to thaw out. So they can continue their journey westward. That is just one of the numerous numerous examples of the failure of the federal government to see the operation through. And the way that had promised people promised people we meet a lot of them in your book. It brings a lot of life to it. One of them is george gibson. He is the have of that removal budget the removal budget for the war department. They have the fractions of a penny. And how they fold up their report. I believe he is the man that when someone in the sympathetic field officer. To help us see them see them on the arkansas river. It is it disagreeable state of things. They want everyone to find their self reliance. They were made even worse when the sock were breaks out in the midwest. Doing this research and learning about this misery where you go to as a historian when you are reading about this. Some of the stories are hard to deal with. Its also astounding to see these records in the federal archives recording all of this. And you open these boxes in that there are crumbling records of just these atrocious events. The challenge of recovery. And then presenting them in a way in a way that is understandable. One of the things that kept going and doing the research. It was at this depressing project in a lot of ways. I think it was an important one. I was amazed at the kind of evidence that was just sitting there in the federal archives waiting for someone to look at it. He is the general. So he is in charge of supplying them. If they read through the correspondence. So many pounds of beef or pork to here or there. To see the truth. He is an old friend of jacksons. It is interesting you would think that this operation would be the possibility there. They actually take the authority away and gives it to the commentary. And they have this reputation where he was extremely meticulous. He was obsessed with every dollar and every cent. And even to the fraction of a penny. So he would scour these accounts there were thousands and thousands of pages of these accounts. We certainly cant afford this. We shouldnt pay for them. With an account that would be 83. 32. He would say you have missed calculated that i have fraction of a penny please revise this and send it back. He is obsessed with this but he does not see the bigger picture. He doesnt really seat the human see the human misery that this human operation has created. It was the operation that he himself is overseen. What are some other things that were not afforded along the way. Medicine was one of the big ones. And people on the ground some of them were more sympathetic to the people they were moving. Some of the agents would write back and say is preposterous to move a thousand people 800 miles when you have women and children and not had any medicine or to not have a dr. Why would you not pay for the dr. Im not authorized to pay for that. Or the number of wagons that were available. Where the feed to pay for the indian. This is some of the most valuable properties that native people have and the federal government when it paid to feed them. We are not authorized to pay for that. He underscored it over and over again. It was a single most important thing here. The people that were deported and that is the polite word. They were charged for the cost of their deportation. What are some of the things that they were billed for. This is an awful part of the story. They have to pay and they were there. It just goes on and on for decades after the fact. They are still trying to rectify these accounts. They receive a bill a decade later and they are looking at it. We have that. We have a to pay for the rations they died soon after they set out. They are still doing this for rations in the indian territory. They are billed for the cost of postage. They are billed for the horse of an indian. They are billed for a new book case. They are billed for the overtime labor. So every single possible item is added at and they send the bill to the victims of this operation. It is really incredible when you see it through that administrative lens. Meanwhile those who did stay. Many exposed to starvation some even been hunted in the woods. For poaching food from their own land. There is extreme pressure for them to lead. When the creek war or the resistance in the middle of the decade and some people do stay. Please elaborate on the experience of the eastern bn of the cherokee indians. And why they were able to remain on the historic lens in Western North carolina. There are some very small groups of people that are able to say in the south. And probably the seminoles in florida. In the eastern band of cherokees. And North Carolina. They recognize early on the army that if the cherokee resist. It will be the people that live in the mountains of North Carolina who are going to be the most difficult to move. They send in an engineer to scout the region and he writes back and says these people are determined not to move. There is no way these mounds are so precipitous the foliage is so dense. If we have to find some truth there. It will be a disaster for us. I very small number of people are able to survive by hiding out in the mountains of North Carolina. And what is interesting about that by the 1850s the federal government in North Carolina had lost interest in moving them. Which suggests the possibility of a alternative that people could have stayed. And even as late as the late 1837 there are still negotiations between the cherokee and the federal government. And there seems to be a window that is still open. There was nothing admirable about the story. That is one of the points in this book. It was not an inevitability but an economic decision. In the mid 1830s. You had resisters, and fugitives. Women fleeing in stories of them smothering their children because they cant run. It is just a horrible story. Also because of the resistance of the creek in the seminal it sent a shudder through White Planters. There outnumbered. How does that change the u. S. Response. It is the turning point in the mid point. It really lays bare with this policy was all about. In the first half of the decade. And the early years of the policy. Its humanitarian. It is the best thing that we can do for the native people. By the mid decade it creates a spot. We dont want to go. Our treaty says we dont have to go. We can stay and take our land we can divide up our Communal Land in the individual land owners. We could become citizens of the state. And the vast majority of them take that option. It is to the great disappointment of planters who want that desperately. They send in the federal government. To push down the unrest. And a force of these people out. This is the prequel of 1836. It ends with about 1500 creek men being marched in chains to Montgomery Alabama where they are put on steamboats. They have down the river. At the same time there is resistance in florida. This is what we call the second seminole war. It runs from the summer of 1835 to 1842 in these really become worse of extermination. And i dont use that word lightly. They say it. It has become a war of extermination. One highranking general. The secretary of war wants to exterminate. And the stories are horrendous. The troops are down there for years. They are dying from disease. But theyre also chasing down families and there are the awful stories of family husband and wife in their two children i remember this one. The man is mending his moccasin. In the troops to send on them. And the woman runs with the children. And then they are put in change. We dont know what the fate was today. They were most certainly moved west. Can you comment on the extent that i should make a point in some cases escaped or enslaved people who were fighting with the seminoles. This is a related question can you come met. This is to your earlier question as well. The great fear of planters is not that they are just holding on to their land. They form alliances with enslaved African Americans. This is the ultimate fear with a slave uprising. It could sneak across the south and ultimately turn the entire south. This is the ultimate fear the relationship between African Americans and native people was quite complex. So as was discussed. With the continent. And they resembled White Planters across the south. These folks were small in number. People saw the native communities as potential places of refuge. And native people saw at least on occasion potentially power. Would you clarify for pete who asked the question on rather than civilizing the savages was not the goal of u. S. Policy both before and after indian removal to take indian land one. And to to eliminate their cultural presence and indian communities who resisted i believe are answering that question. Claudia did know if you had anything too add there . We talk about policy, i suppose you could step back and suggest that there is some sort of broader was a policy i think we need to be specific about what we mean. You can step back and say there is some broader sentiment that existed from 1500 up to you could say the present which a desire to eliminate to take their land and eliminate them. We talk about policy about the choices, the political choices that people made, it varies over time. And they are hotly debated. Thats one of things i want to underscore in my book. Nothing automatic about indian removal. This hotly debated and what comes in from the proponents of this policy say that the future of the republic depends on what it does to native people is going too abide by its principles with the American Revolution and the declaration of the going to treat all people equally . Or instead is it going to be more a kin to the corrupt tyrannies that existed in europ europe. They truly believe the fate of the republic rested on this decision. That political decision that was made in 1830. Host so moving too see and read the things that native americans argued for appealing to the constitution and liberty and the concept of equality in the book but i want to move forward before we have to close. Then we find may of 1836 the cherokee expulsion really begins in earnest. By the 1860 census not one native person living in alabama to go back to your point, a lot of books cover treaties and how the u. S. Government backtracked on them. But the cost again as one of the things you talk about here for the u. S. Had planned to spend 500,000 too expel these 80000 people. By your calculation, the government spent 75 million but that is about a trillion dollars today, equal to 12. 5 million. If you could quickly if you tell how you come about that . Simply to convert from 1830 to the present. There are multiple ways of doing them. Thats what you need to make an economist working after strategies for determine the best ways given might be absent. But the cost cost to the government is relatively easy too determine. Once you go to this calculations its a matter of converting the figure. I think is most important here is not just the process of the federal government. Its the cost to native people which i was also able too calculate. Look at. Family or household, and how much they actually lost could you go to those numbers for us . It is equivalent and most important thing to take away is its equivalent to the net worth the average American Family today. So you can just imagine that all of your familys wealth was wiped out overnight. Its a multigenerational taken from you literally overnight. Another way to look at this is to look at the value of lets say the chickasaw man that was taken from these nations. It was equivalent to the capitalization of one of the largest corporations in the United States at the time. So imagine being dispossessed of amazon. These are relatively small nations. To talk about the chickasaws have somewhere between 12 and 18000 citizens they are coowners of this corporation if we continue the analogy that stolen from them overnight. Its the multi general inheritance that stolen from you. But also resonates for generations and generations when you have that kind of dispossession. And so, one thing that strikes me to it come back might remember as a financier, his children married into european royalty amazingly his great, great, great granddaughter died in 1990. She was extremely wealthy when she passed away. Married in the early 20th century as the early part of the fighting papers. She was married according to society pages, in front of a mere that jd peers of an affront of one of his mahogany tables. Soon she died in 1990, her will was disputed admitted into the new york times. This just shows you the kind of divergence of families who are impoverished by this possession, and how that impoverished echoes the generations. In the wealth thats amassed and that wealth is passed down to the generations. And still exist to this day. Host that is extremely profitable to some but so tragically expensive and dollars and in life and in culture to others. It is the collateral cost here of the explosive growth in the domestic slave trade. A lot more pressure for more labor in the south that separated families in other regions. So now we have racial reckoning and cultural reparations that discussed him by policymakers and citizens alike. In ways i think be unimaginable just a couple of years ago. Have there been calls for reparations for Indigenous People . And what would that mean . That is a great question. There is whats called the indian court of claims set up in the late 1940s 1950s. This was a policy called termination. So the federal government one to basically account for its errors and for the injustice to pay native people back. And then to terminate its relationship with indian nations. Basically to dissolve these nations altogether. This was a policy that was enacted cynically. And no one was satisfied at the end of the day. So that is not how to do it. How these to be done still an open question. That is a conversation that americans have to have with indigenous americans. Most reconciliation compensation, what would justice look like . Thats an open ended question for. There is a lot of analysis about the expulsion being the war that slaveholders one. Your little overtime so quickly could you answer what that means you . You mentioned at some point that in fact the governor of georgia is in the brink of war in the 1820s over this issue there is pieces in georgia newspaper saying we will need federal troops on the board and we will defend our home and we will defend our slaves and defend our right to indian land. And so at the end of the day, the federal Government Back down, jackson was in the white house theres a more sympathetic figure. And so slaveholders push this because until they got what they wanted. And at the end of the day they did get exactly what they wanted. And what they wanted was too expand across the south, to move slaves from North Carolina and South Carolina west to how africanamerican families were broken up. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were shipped into mississippi and alabama. Eventually into east texas. They had visions taking over the federal government. They had visions taking over the entire continent to the pacific coast. And they had visions of taking mexico and cuba as well. They thought they were going to move the world forever. And this was a key step in that process. So it was a war that certainly they one. At least in the short term. You for have a Remarkable Book i want to thank you so much for your time. It is called unworthy republic the disposition of native americans in the road to american territory. We do recommend you pelt from a cappella books a great way to keep the money in the community. We have a load of other talks coming up virtual author talks coming up you can go to the atlanta history center. Com too see the full schedule pretty went too thank you all for being here. Thanks for your time. And heres a look at some Publishing Industry news. Fox news has entered the publishing world by announcing fox news books heard in coordination with harpercollins. The partnerships include an initial three book deal and will launch on november 24 with the release of fox news host pizza book, modern warriors. The nobel prize in literature has been awarded to american poet for her quote unmistakable poetic voice that was austere beauty makes individual existence universal. The book was a poet laureate of the United States in 2003 and 2004. In other award news the Macarthur Foundation announcer annual genius grants that provide each of the 21 recipients 125,000 a year for five years without any restrictions on the use of the grant money. This years fellows include young adult author Jacqueline Woodson and novelist jenison and christina rivera, also in the news print book sales were up over 6 for the week ending october 3. And Simon Schusters remember in one of his longtime editors, Allison Mayhew who died earlier this year. 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