And put into camps behind barbed wire, United Nations relief administration. But supplied by the armies. The army supplied them with food and medical supplies, build facilities and took care of them. In germany in the years following ve day, in these camps they were little ukraines, little jewish settlements. In the beginning the allies decided that they were going to separate by nationality, they did not recognize that there was such a thing as a jew. Lithuanian jews were sequestered to lithuania, with nonjewish, in many instances the jewish survivors found themselves in the concentration of labor camps. That ended in july and august. And all of these camps it was transitional. Would soon be allowed to go home. What they believed world war iii was coming rapidly. The americans and british were going to liberate lithuania from the soviets and they could go home again. Same with the polls. The jews knew they could never go home again. They tried to convince themselves and others they could return to the jewish community. The only place on earth they soon recognized where they would be welcome is palestine, the british did everything they possibly could under the mandate to keep the jews out. Host there was always who couldnt go home but at one point the decision is made to not force repatriation, that individuals would have a choice, talk about that. One of the things i realized, the cold war begins almost immediately. The ramp from world war ii cold war is a steep one. In the beginning the soviets and their allies, soviet dominated lands except for the jews, from years before every displaced person should go home whether they wanted to or not they had to go home. The allies said no. People have the right to choose their own citizenship whether they wanted to go home or not. The soviets were convinced, there was a paranoia there was a basis in reality. The allies tried to overthrow the bolshevik regime, some of his compatriots believed that was a real possibility, and what they were doing was creating an army of antisoviet, anticommunist, and or beginning with world war iii. The establishment of international institutions, the relief and Rehabilitation Authority and the International Refugee organization and amazing passage in your book, it is on page 258 beginning on chapter 17 where you talk a little bit about how these organizations hint at a mission of humane institutions to provide relief for this immediate human suffering and yet they turn into something else. They turn into utilitarian employment agencies. Talk a little bit about about those institutions and where they go. Franklin roosevelt and others, understands 1943, there will be an enormous refugee problem when the war is over and the only way is International Cooperation and he is instrumental in 1943 in setting up the recent rehabilitation administration. He gets the nations of the world to join, understanding that it will be an agency that repatriate, takes care of the immediate needs of the refugees and provides passage for them. For the last million, the soviet demand they be sent home or made to survive on their own in germany the americans and the british support these people in camps for a year and a half until it becomes clear that they are not going home. The americans and the british spearhead the establishment of a new organization, a new organization without the soviets and its task is not to repatriate but to resettle, and beginning in late 194647, there is this extraordinary, bizarre meat market set up, as one of the employees calls it. A meat market set up in displaced persons camps, all the members of International Organizations, dozens of latin american nations, canada, australia, they send delegations into the camp to find workers to take jobs that they cant find anybody else to take. It begins with the british, the british have a severe labor shortage and cant get anybody to work in the tuberculosis for hospitals so what do they do . They go into the camps and they recruit thousands of latvian women in the beginning and then they decide this worked so well we need help in the mines, the lot koreans latvians go out, belgians need minors, the french need minors. The canadians need Railroad Workers and people who work in forest 3 and so the International Refugee organization becomes a labor recruit organization. The shots are being called by governments doing the recruiting. There is a hierarchy in terms of desirability in the resettlement process based on race and perception or a culmination . It is a combination. The australian prime minister, they were white, the latvians are protestant, the latvians are reliably anticommunist. It only arrived in germany at the end of the war and were relatively healthy, hadnt suffered ravages of war. It was felt that they were hard workers. No country on earth wanted the jews and they didnt want the jews for a variety of reasons. A variety of myths, and unwilling to do hard manual labor as scoundrels and thieves, as bolshevik sympathizers, from 194748 were resettled outside of camps the jews were left. The only way was through illegal immigration to palestine, to stop ships that left from marseille, bulgarian ports but decided we couldnt do it. 20, 30,000, they make their way to israel. Put him on a second series of ships and send them to cyprus and put them behind barbed wire. Even going to another set of displaced persons camps remaining in the land of their murderers. Questions about that, look at truman as it relates to the story. The way i am reading it in the narrative, willing to confront the range to open up palestine. It is a painful process, it gets in that direction. Is that fair. Truman believes in the very beginning in a time of optimism, dont go there and truman says i am going a. And got to open up palestine, for displaced persons and the loans you need for the nation. Lots of Jewish Voters and the humanitarian thing to do and then this further argument which is tragic. He says to the british you dont have to worry, 6 million jews were killed and the European Jews arent going to overwhelm palestine. We are not talking millions here but a couple hundred thousand. The british will not budge and they say to truman. Take them into the United States. That truman knows, domestic politics and international politics, the hostility for the European Jews. The misunderstanding, congress will never allow them in the country. A question i had, a scene in the book, this goes back to the camps themselves and word gets back and the situation is really dire, people are suffering and talk to eisenhower and told him to clean it up. Eisenhower goes back and goes toward the camp in particular the jewish camps and makes it a point these are under United States authority. Was that an act of humanity or was i romanticizing truman and eisenhower in late of recent events, displaced people . Truman and eisenhower in this book. Heroes nonetheless, with displaced persons, it is because he read the bible from early on, jews belong the pain in the beginning, weve got to realize what a mess europe was. We knew that millions had been killed, or many made it out of the camps and there was this sense the state department had the sense and the british had the sense, and cant single out the jews, the jewish organizations in the United States and in britain said the jews suffered more than any other group and needs special treatment. The American State Department and the United Nations said no. Absolutely not. The suffering was intense. In july two month after the war was over, in july, it was a Fact Finding Mission led by dean harrison from the university of pennsylvania, was not a zionist, to camps. Treating the jews just as the germans did, truman reads this report, read this letter to eisenhower you got to take care of this. It is impossible and unamerican. You mentioned moving to the cold war aspect of this. Could you say a little more about the soviet interests, how does it look from moscow. How does this drift into the beginning stage of the cold war from the east . The soviets know that large numbers of collaborators escaped from the east, escaped from the baltic nations from belarus and ukraine and made their way into germany. Workers and collaborators who throw away their uniforms, invent new histories, into the displaced persons camps. The soviets know and the polls know and the yugoslavs know there are these war criminals there and wants to bring them to justice. Anticommunism in these camps, it is going to affect the future direction of europe and the world that having these dedicated, anticommunist and antisoviet, is going to cause them hardship. The most important reason, have been extremely reporting the nations and they need every laborer they can, including members of the last million who are idle in germany, returning to poland to rebuild the devastating country. It takes a wild. Dont remember when it happens. The United States congress for resettlement of refugees. It takes time. This is the question, when reading the book, why doesnt the United States and focusing on the United States do more to sort out the war criminals, the collaborators, the gnatses the nazis and others for resettlement in the United States. The americans, the british, canadians and australians didnt keep war criminals, in doing my research that wasnt the case. In every displaced persons camp there was a historical commission. In poland the surviving jews immediately established a historical commission. The most famous of the jewish worthy nazi hunters, sets up a commission, and in the camps of the displaced person, the collaborators, no one consults him, no one gives a damn and one of the reasons for this is the man more ease of world war are obliterated by the fears of cold war. Hitler has been defeated so the sentiment is in the United States, they are not coming back. The danger moving forward is from the cold war and this notion that there is such a thing called totalitarianism, and that stalin is a latterday hitler, soviets are the same as the germans, and we have to turn from one war to another, and so what . If some of these displaced persons were nazi collaborators or fraud against the red army, so what if they joined the ss, they are anticommunist and we need them now. Lets forget the past and move forward. This happens everywhere. A story i felt that stays with me. A group of minors in england, doesnt really matter, that the latvians get them in the minds have ss tattoos and threatened to go on strike. A labor government, labor government, ss soldiers, keep them out of the minds, put them in jobs where they dont have to take off their shirts or see their tattoos. In 1950, 1951 americans changed their regulations, or members of the ss. It is not a pretty picture. The country or congress or people on the street, congress is beset by cold war hysteria. I understand in the context of the time in the 1940s to early 50s, there does seem to be towards the end of the book a wave in the 1980s, or time goes by, 30 years later, simon reason fall Simon Wiesenthal becomes more wellknown. I think of it during the reagan years. That is a function of time. I am curious how you read that. It bubbles up. It bubbles up in the United States. 50 of the time he is wrong, he accuses people he shouldnt accuse that 30 of the time he is right. If there is residue of nazi hunters that nobody listens to for 30 years and beginning in the 70s, reporters, journalists, some of them are not jewish, look again at what went on 30 years before they their begin to be leaks from ins, weeks to reporters and congresswoman elizabeth holtzman, in the records of the immigration and Naturalization Service lists of nazi collaborators, because of the crusade of the journalists and holtzman and other congressman, the question is reopened in the United States and once the United States looks at what happens 30 years before, how did these people get into the United States, how many are here and what can we do about it . Canadians, australians and the brits begin to start the same process. Regrettably it is too late even though they were brought to justice a good 30 years in the United States their crime is unpunished. I have more questions for david nasaw but i encourage those who are watching if you have a question or comment, by the chat function, and get those towards the end of the hour. I cant resist asking this question. I want to avoid simple or facile comparisons but we are living in a world where 80 million forced, displaced people. This is a live issue in a different way but i have to ask you having spent all this time on this story and telling this story, what does it leave you with, Lessons Learned or thoughts that you could connect to the situation we find ourselves in. A tragedy in the presentday situation. Let me start with the most obvious. In 1943, roosevelt establishes an International Organization because he understands the International Problem requires International Cooperation. Until the present administration the United States took the lead in International Cooperation about refugees. Now, having said that the obligation of the United Nations and participating nations has been not to repatriate or resettle the refugees but to shelter, feed, and supply them with medical assistance in the camps. In the 70 years since the end of displaced persons camps in germany the sense has been the limits of responsibility is to make sure none of these people starve, not to allow them to lead meaningful lives, through repatriation or resettlement, this is a tragedy that will only get worse. In my book, at the end the only place for the displaced jews to resettle is independent israel and i make the argument to truman, the establishment and independence of israel because he knows to establish an independent west germany which the west needs as the ball work on anticommunist coalition youve got to get the jews out of germany. There cant be a west germany with 250,000 jews in camps. He cant get them into the United States, is israel. So he supports an independent israel but where did those jews go . Where did the European Jews go . They all settled in rural communities, agricultural settlements, houses and apartments that had been cleared of palestinians by the israeli army or in the case of those who had left voluntarily, they refused to let the palestinians return. The problem of the displaced jews is solved by the displacement of palestinians. I dont want to diminish suffering of the jews who end up in israel there displacement, five years, displacement of the palestinians is in its Third Generation with no sign of their ever being the resettlement. My last question to alex woodson, maybe he can see it up with the first question but i want to make note of the theme of aftermath with which you conclude the book. To me, that suggests some idea of regeneration or some growth. I dont know. The tragedy leads to some redemption orphaned off another one. Before i let you go over to the question. Do you have a sense of redemption or do you feel the cycle the way you left it repeats itself . This new book tells about two displaced persons when they arrive in israel are sent to an apartment fully furnished. The palestinians have left a. And his wife lola that i talk about. And she was 96. And they have known each other in poland. They lost their entire families. They suffered immensely. And through the kindness, their only remaining relatives in the United States. They were resettled, relocated, they found a home for the family. They raised three kids, large brood of grandchildren with assistedliving and at the end of this discussion, i tried to ask a final question and he looks at me, a good life. Originally had been married for 70 years. And her for bank to my cousins in america. Reporter i want to make sure we have time for questions. My colleague alex woodson will ask, it is lighting up. Reporter first question from debra rogers. It is an extraordinary story and i dont want to downplay it. The surviving remnant recognized morning was a luxury. They would not forget the 6 million but their task was to resurrect judaism. They were all clear about that. They believed that in exile the anticommunist polls, their task, their mission to resurrect the cultural nationalism to keep it alive. It was not one of defeat or victimization but one of preparation for the next phase of their lives which they hope would follow. This is from david kent, a personal question. My father was a jewish refugee, in 1942, came to the United States in may of 1948, and displaced person because the quota for austria was too small but he definitely came as a displaced person. I havent talked about it in this interview. There was a truman directive, he couldnt get the british to move. The german and austrian quotas, combine, number one, up offices in and around to provide visas for those who could establish german or austrian citizenship in some way. A small number will of german and austrian jews were allowed to enter before the displaced persons act. The germans and austrians were not considered displaced persons, displaced persons defined as those who thought against the germans but under the truman directive some were allowed to enter the country. Host the next question is from Grady Jacobson in massachusetts. We are often taught as children the liberation of European Jews from nazi germany was a major reason the allies fought world war ii. The allies were not immediately concerned with what was perpetrated on the jewish people are mistreated as well. At what point the attitude changed, do you think this idea fundamentally clear to me that the war was not fought to save the jews. Roosevelt and his cabinet went out of the way to discount any word, to save jews. The war was fought for a variety of reasons but the rescue of the jews was part of that. It was wrong. B change when the war was over, the common sense view that americans open their arms and pocketbooks, that they had not saved during the war. 6 million had died and a quarter million remain and common sense view is we opened our arms and welcomed them. That was not the case. In the end those quarter million displaced jews only 50,000 came to the United States. Some of those who went to israel because they didnt know where else they could go came back to the United States but very number of displaced jews was minimal. This is more of a comment, nonresettlement was a tenet of International Law that could lead to death. Some jews were forced to settle in germany. Even israel didnt take everyone at first until 1955 because israel was willing to do so. Yes and no. Israel in the very beginning said we will take all the jews that can come. Israel set up an organization for those who were sick or in firm, there were groups, large numbers of jews who remain in germany, those who had gone to israel found that they couldnt live there because it was in a state of war, came back to germany and there were groups of Orthodox Jews who remained in germany but for the most part the israelis accepted the jews. There are questions how they could have treated them once they got to israel and also there was some resistance to bringing them into the country but israel did open its doors. It felt an obligation to take as many jews as wanted to come. This question goes back to carnegie council. Any lessons we can learn from the the last million europes displaced persons from world war to cold war when looking at the border with mexico . Yes. Yes. Let me start with two. There has to be a factbased approach. We cant let, just as the jews were kept out, because of this rift, that they were bolsheviks. All of us have to do everything we can to counter this myth of mexicans who dont want to work hard or are criminals, hondurans and colombia who are gang members. There has to be a factbased realism. At the same time, humanitarian interests at some point have to override political interests and political differences. We have to open our hearts and souls and minds to the crisis on the southern border. There is no sign that that is being done under a Current Administration and we hope that it changes. We are coming i want to make sure david had a chance to sum up. I have a big question, we may have to have a separate conversation over lunch sometime, dont want to get into counterfactual history but part of the book, how the war doesnt end and it blends into the cold war. Did you give any thought to things that could have been done differently and it feeds off of the answer you just gave but were we able to go back in time, seeing cold war on the horizon, how this problem might have been addressed in a way that would have been more positive, less confrontation with the soviet union . Yes. It would have been possible to cooperate with the soviets, and what the soviets a lot of the nazi records, soviets had eyewitnesses to the baltic states, cooperated with the soviets. They had been found and brought to justice. And we were right to. You dont have to trust them entirely, early on and that was not done and as a result the soviets were convinced we were keeping these war criminals in camps because they were anticommunist which is not true and the hostility between the soviets and the American Coalition increased to the point that was unmanageable. We have to adjourn, thank you for spending time with it. It was a lifechanging experience that makes me look at the end of the war. Thank you so much, look forward to continuing the conversation. This has been a terrific conversation. Thanks, everybody, for listening, we will adjourn, goodbye. Weeknights this month we are featuring booktv programs as a preview of what is available on cspan2. We focus on business and economics. Reed hastings and aaron meyer discuss the book no rules rules. And freeman on the power of and. Garrett scott and the book banking on freedom. It starts at 8 00 pm eastern and enjoy booktv this weekend every weekend on cspan2. This year marks the twentieth anniversary of booktvs monthly Author Program in depth. You will see many of the authors who appeared on the program. We were joined by Arthur Cornell west, the heads of Simon Schuster and regular publishing. Members, something that is still something brings tears to my eyes. I hope it wont do it now. On the seventh of december, the eighth of december of 1941, i went to what you would call a prom, a dance, the equivalent of a freshman at the university. I came home
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