I just have a little bit of information to cover before we start. The book we are discussing today on house divided is tecumseh and the profit. We will meet peter in just a moment but first i want to tell you about the book coming from can off publisher and thank you for helping to put peter on the program with us today the cost is 35 and can be ordered from our website those of you watching this on the lifestream and then you can have a signed First Edition on october 27, october 27, 2020 was the release date for the book and for signing a special day of the week bookplate so books that you order from us on this program will be a limited edition i cannot tell you how many books will be that is up to you you will get a signed limited edition bookplate from Abraham Lincoln bookshop. This will be we broadcast on television and later by cspan and thank you for participating in this program. So another piece of information here please leave your question in the Comment Section of this Facebook Post we will do q a after one hour so at approximately 445 central time we will begin taking questions feel free to leave it in the Comment Section at any time. That checks off everything on my list so without further ado let me introduce your host for today ill introduce daniel from Abraham Lincoln bookshop. Welcome to everyone. If there is a technical problem that we can still see each other and hear each other. Walking into the shop as a 15 yearold in the seventies and look where you are now. You spent your career in Foreign Service. So in the embassy of palomar and peru and costa rica. Thank you for your service. The ripken award given annually to one Foreign Service officer for moral courage and integrity. And im so happy to be with you and the author or editor 15 books on the american civil war. The last book the epic story of the indian more for the American West that should be with this book on the bookshelf for the Indian Experience and native experience and the United States. The latest book is tecumseh and the profit hundred 37 pages with terrific color illustrations. And if you order it today now we call the limited edition to have bookplate signed if you are watching this after todays program. And just to show what they are. How did you get your publisher to print all color for the book . Taboo me away. That was their decision. Giving us so many fullcolor pictures the would be good to do in black and white so they went the extra mile if you dont like the writing at least you have a book with great pictures. [laughter] it is terrific and it feels like that certainly did you use the maps . That was a great help of understanding. I provide a background maps maybe four or five samples and getting what i wanted on each map but you cant have too many maps those are critical and then to prevail on 14 maps for the book that i hope covered made possible. And i think they are crucial to understanding this difficult to know where everything is but now the last book as we talked about the earth is weeping and you gave culture west of the mississippi what about those east of the mississippi much different . Significantly so in one particular way as the predecessors to build those intertribal alliances once you get past the 17th century by the time you the United States was born to go east of the mississippi in the modern midwest they got along pretty well. And they were not inherently a publisher in the way the American West were and it was much easier for them to form alliances because it wasnt the great animosity worth fighting over the limited resources like the buffalo but tribes that were agricultural and supplemented with hunting and they were much less competitive and much more readily swarmed alliances in the last. This is a dual biography there are a number of battles in here and to make it exciting with the Indian Culture and also all the players so with your sources quickly both for the light side and how biased where they . So what is the best source for the book . When that was critical that it is a biography you written by a man named stephen who was captured by the shawnee in a raid in kentucky when he was 12 years old. And then become the adopted brother of tecumseh. And with that concept of the better part of 16 years with the raids on kentucky and saw the maturation. And then decide to return to kentucky and White Society to become a minister and then visited one another. And that wonderful journal but the it later in life with the late 18 twenties is then related to the governor of the michigan territory talking about shawnee culture and religion are those traditions that were is a valuable source. With the British Military that was valuable to i did a lot of work in the eighties rightparenthesis valuable sources and tecumseh with the american leaders. So why didnt have the wealth of primary sources that i had because the scarcer the be come but and to bring these as human beings. We have many artifacts and talking about tecumseh percent you brought up here is the 1832 pamphlet that was taken just before the black hawk war in 1832 and i suppose this is where we get into the culture how often were those taken by indians out east . How often does this occur . Its very common and thats the way the indian tribe those that tended not to take basically with the culture that includes the shawnee it is very common as old as 12 or 13 or 14 years older sometimes older with members of society and particularly but even adult men that were on occasion tortured and killed to avenge the loss of the shawnee warriors. But they more often than not and that were adopted into the shawnee was daniel in his twenties. And then later escaped. Interestingly and then one of the terms that the tribe would return their captors to Colonial Society and very few wanted to be repatriated. They prefer living among the indians. So i sources and to live part of their lives in the tribe and with that time among the indian indians. And what the origins were for the shawnee . And you devote a chapter so very briefly what was that that they grew up in . I know the shawnee had five divisions and were not cohesive. Origins in ohio but they fled in the 1600 when the iroquois he swept most of the people out of the ohio valley. And to the mid 17 hundreds and then to reunite in southern ohio with a Fraternal Society and a mans worth warrior and a hunter. And then to go back and forth so as a man to be a hunter and a provider for your families by how well you married or how were your husband did as a provider and it was a culture to practice agriculture with a wide variety of foods there were five traditions and each division traditionally was supposed to provide one aspect of the leadership another tribe has religious leaders to be the providers but in practice and as time went by those differences became less important although the membership in the division does not define you to a degree you had five divisions and numerous plans based on a suppose it would common return will descendent. And really to the shawnee overall was in terms of importance. You have in your appendix of the shawnee. To go back number of times to remind missiles who they were. So how does that occur . And then to be the most colorful tribe and then to be decimated but then to maintain their status but they maintain their status as the keeper of the Great Council fire. And to set the time and place and when disputes arose between tribes generally they were differ but that phenomenon did not exist that is unique to the tribes of the old northwest. And that status the most powerful is the algonquin. The headers in the book with the british and the french with the tecumseh and the prophet coming together many times. Other indian leaders and with these power centers, i see them and then tecumseh putting together the confederacy that says every man is his own chief. Is that a fatal flaw in that regard . That was a significant flaw. It spoke of how strong tecumsehs character was and also spoke very highly of the religious that the indians of other tribes willingly supported themselves and then with those other tribes and the tribal leaders and with the same situation within their own tribe. And those that followed tecumseh and did so voluntarily because its in their best interest to do so. With the institutional pressure. And with this religious fervor how widespread did that become and speaking of the yearly profit did he use that will leave forever to build upon it . And with the most influential profit in American History and with the most influential and that prophecy among those tribes going back to the 16 hundreds and consciously and was on record to call himself the indian to draw on the religious doctrine with military and political purposes and then to draw on both of their experiences. Im sorry but tecumseh jew on pontiac as well. Very much so in the tales of their exploits around campfires and the pontiac war was less than a generation removed and they both acknowledged the fact that they owned pontiac and with a lot of novels and then to draw considerably on fire. And profits at this time . There were but none and that directly affected much beyond the first days of his ministry for lack of a better word there were women that call themselves profits and to limit themselves among the mohicans and the protege and then among the indians of minnesota but to have no real competitor. And the characters of these two and with those character traits and then to serve him well and then to speak english early on and with those traits. The testimony that he wrote in a letter to the secretary of war. If not for the paraphrasing and then there was very aggressive. He was the ideal of the shawnee warrior. And in 1774. He was handsome, very selfpossessed, outstanding hunter and popular with the ladies even as a young boy he attracted a gang of fellow boys and had a natural charisma. Also a good sense of humor that comes out and with those pioneer friends and was a goodnatured person he had to move because raids were conducted on his home village so he had a real sense of humanity and opposing torture and what he did he came across the prisoner who would be tortured and stop that. And oppose making war on women and children and captivated and in traders and British Military the very charismatic. The story i was thinking about coming across this poor white civilian who was captured and tortured and killed. He tried to stop them. So taking a gun or a hatchet and killed him outright so he didnt have to go through the pain. That was a young man even before he was established but that prisoner was considered to be almost like a slave and then to overstep that dramatically. How lucky as an older tour the mission again governor criticize this, but others seem to be drawn to it and with those speeches he has to deliver . And the shawnee is usually could be different with those that spoke it. And the speech to the british general chastising him for contemplating abandoning michigan and with a very famous speech and was drafted primarily by another chief and to read accounts that suggest he was a and one an effective worker and then to be stumbling and those that use the allegories. And to be a better than average or greater orator then he could get more credit than may otherwise be the case. I was surprised to find in my research those that were equally able and he was sober and tecumseh. So to have that activism and as you said creativity like his life depended on it and how i turned around into a spiritual leadership. And those that help them turn his life around. And to be a poster child for alcoholics anonymous. And in some ways i find him and from that dramatic transformation was such an with that concept he is one of three triplets and a misfit a terrible hunter and almost shot his eye out with an arrow and became an alcoholic it was destroying the Indian Society and he was raging and he depended upon to a great extent the husband of the older sister and to pedal the trade and one day he was sitting before the fire with rampant alcoholism and the encroachment of the whites on their land and fell into the deathlike transit was so deep that tecumseh and his other relatives thought he was dead and they started to make funeral preparations but then on the second day he came to and visited the master of life ascending into heaven all the incredible things he was told by the master the indians must change their ways if they were to survive. Absolutely they must stop and literally from that day forward he went from an alcoholic to being completely absent and then literally became a changed man. And then to become a model maybe not to the extent of the whites. Even though the medicine said one should not do that. And to be pragmatic and then to come in especially needing utensils or clothing and other times to become the path that. And sometimes it did if there is the eclipse but all of this is in the book not just listening to this but from our talk about getting into the book get the book on your shelf. It really is a wonderful read the medicine didnt always help them out. No. And then with the territory. And then to make a strategic error telling him what he will do and then to attack tecumseh and then packed into a corner that was forced to fight the battle against harrison and he emphasized that it would be a great light and easy to kill and other prophecies like that. And then with these campfires but the one thing in there with the ammunition. And that prophecies do not come true and then to get themselves out of that gm. And then that prophecies and the medicine and then to blame for the lack of ammunition. He and tecumseh were of the purified indians and to keep the indian land as well. And then how do we separate our goals and use them for each other . But tecumseh did believe his brother was a divinely ordained profit and to be raised in the same spiritual tradition and then to lose contact with all whites the british and the french were all right with the state supplied ammunition to the indians so that association they were exempted. And with the war of 1812 and then that is the necessity but tecumseh supplants with the importance as the military and political aspects and overshadow the spiritual and Cultural Roots of the alliance. Perhaps because of sibling rivalry. And that rivalry and that the profit afterward the historiography. First historically that stems from the fact that coming from a revitalization with the alliance based on the spiritual traditions are completely foreign to americans and then it seemed almost barbaric to finish witchcraft but tecumseh advocated and with that stage and with that more pragmatic military alliance to resist the encroachment. And that is under similar circumstances. And that why he was a great war leader and then to look and where he saved death by torture and murder and also raise them very high with the contemporaneous americans. But there was one occasion and then to have dinner talking about his silly brother but tecumseh was trying to boost himself but he never disavowed his brother. And when tecumseh was a way and then he did a little bit too much posting and then to rebound against him i didnt want to be to overshadowed. And that and where they were at the beginning of the book especially and what i want to get to is the 13 treaties of 18 oh three and 18 oh nine. And then to read off the treaty that was there. s treaty of st. Louis, the treaty of fort wayne so what were those cumulative effects of all the treaties during those years and how do they turn up . They were all negotiated and at the behest jeffersons policy was completely dependent on agriculture and so deeply indebted to American Traders for good to be forced to sell land to the americans and their empire of democracy to allow for western migration and then to get as much without possible so during those six years to negotiate often and particularly in as they accompany. And those six treaties and with a small strip in Northern Ohio and those that were settled in the treaty of detroit and then began to box them in a corner so that tecumseh and those that were limited to the northern half of indiana and tecumseh made it very clear we will accept that but no more. We have a line in the sand and if you go beyond that and that is grounds for war. Simple as that. We have a book that came out in 1836 and in that i found talking about antioch and tecumseh is just one toward the hand. And to talk about the counsel for the indians and it allows everyone to speak their say the right to their own opinions however they appear to be and those that were in the journal of voice to america and with the negotiations of the indians and then that nobleness that would do honor to the most polished nations. And with the treaty negotiations. And the indians were far more sincere with far greater fidelity than ever imagined doing or the british before that. It really is remarkable and the contrast is remarkable with these agreements. Just as a footnote today have a facility as well out west . Like the kyla and the command she and then to negotiate with and not be too good at keeping their word. But in general, yes. And in terms of their adult and then to ascend the americans. Now there were a number of councils in this book continually. And i will announce this correctly but in 18 oh five this tribe and in 18 oh seven it was important for tecumseh with this provision of the confederacy. That profit that would take the rest of their lives. And those that by this time half that shawnee tribe migrated to presentday missouri just to get away from that constant warfare to find a safe new life. And tecumseh at the time and establishing his creed and was 10 percent of the shawnee population and was the principal village and then to make the case to other shawnees and representatives of the tribes that attended the council to present the creed and although interestingly it was rejected from the fellow shawnees and then to take root they are among those representatives from other tribes from faraway wisconsin and michigan and most of his adherents came from tribes thats why it was important. And then to say to tecumseh so clearly he was the leader of the alliance and said and then to reassure the people of ohio moving south of the treaty lines that the shawnee had no hostile intentions one intentions and then to avail themselves and then not to be pushed any further. And this cannot go on . And to their critic on credit to the governor of ohio at the time and they took it well and that is the first opportunity with the new personal doctrine before the american audience. And then began to see the emerging of the two. What was the height of the power of the confederacy and how many tribes . Eventually the height was in 1813 and tecumseh has approximately between five and 6000 and including representatives from tribes as far away as minnesota and wisconsin all of michigan and a number of tribes with 2000 indians that came down to detroit so at its peak and similar in the book and then had 6004 years and that was three times the number of warriors that crazy horse could muster at the little bighorn of indian strength and unity after the civil war so it was a force he put together. As an interesting guys and was he somewhat responsible in the battle to pick a new to be on the treaty. And it was one that wasnt necessary either. But then he wanted to become governor of the state so he wanted more land so he felt that conflict so wasnt that far to begin with it was unnecessary and then to provoke that conflict and with that self propaganda and could convince the War Department and the president and strategically that they abandon those profits but he suffered casualties proportionately more than the indians did. And more importantly some of that tribe elements farther north into wisconsin and michigan were affected directly by white expansion. If napoleon had not gotten out of russia quickly, it was something that would have happened over a year. I wondered the same thing. A lot of historians fall into that, i think trapped alliances and it is fatalistic but it is not a conclusion by any means. That was surprising to me. Please take over. Thank you very much and thank you for staying a little longer. At the moment, we dont have a ton of questions in the Comment Section but i will check again we did have a question from michigans and i will ask you the question but brian later commented, you answered my question already. It will give a little extra thought to this. Brian wants to know early in conversation what language was the primary sources that you consulted and did you consider the validity of the translation . That is a very good question. A book im working on now, there are a lot of spanish sources. I think the translations will better, all of these sources in translations in that time, east of mississippi them they were in some cases, later on because the translations were rendered by either blood, translators who lived among the indians, spoke english and tribal language fluency were indians who spoke english. I think there was a better understanding of one anothers languages that might have been the case. You could never do justice in the allegorical ways and a number of sources would say i wish i could do justice, whatever language, but i think generally they were pretty reliable. All of these tribes, the alliance, i mentioned my appendix, i relate their language to that, whether they were mutually ineligible or not. Within these councils, you had shawnee, almost babylon situation. Thank you for that question. I will talks in question i wanted to ask. It is a little broad so ill go along with what dan said. Do your best. We didnt quite get to the differences, differences in dealing with the Southern Nations christmas west of the mississippi nations. Can you compare his effectiveness those two regions . Didnt do much in the way of negotiations west of mississippi. He spoke to the indians who were in missouri and the shawnee. It is very effective but they appreciated, is unconvincing to them. When he went on his five or six month long journey, his socalled civilized tribe, the cherokee to goes off, he traveled as brothers emissary. Not only the importance of all in the uniting against the inevitable americans but also on behalf of his brothers religious social greed with the exception of one element, they were fairly comfortable. They have lost that much land yet. They were fairly sedentary and slaves themselves. It was less than the disastrous and discovered of my next book. In the south, it was much broader. We need to establish a confederacy that will be americans both north and south of the ohio river. A potential threat sooner or later. Thank you very much. Do you have any questions . Elevated answers, we dont have a lot of time. Quickly. Here is lincoln with some delegation coming in in the 1850s. English speaking tongue, both in the president in washington d. C. . He was invited to. He is invited to come up and see him. Initially, he said he would go but by then, he didnt see the points to that. He was fearful of being away, he didnt entirely trust the americans and didnt see any special upside from it. By then, one of his principal allies, they visited the president and im sure they said its not worth it. Are there any native historians today . Their own interpretations of it . I dont think it varies all that much from the interpretation i on the. In my book, theres dogma, kind of fell into the shawnees wednesday migrated west of the river in kansas. Its more highly regarded among the shawnee but from what i have read, the grandson albert, i think its pretty close to the thought of the brothers. Some of the western tribes, he was out west among the tribes. You sent us this just before this program and there is a new yorker, the prophet and its an interesting essay, ive not had a chance to read it yet but i recommend this to our dealership, if you have anything to say about this . I was flattered because they seldom consider history books, what they are doing, they will to the book that they consider to be topical today to resume societal issues today and use in the vehicle or an essay by a distinguished professor and my book is sort of the starting points of the treatment and in the midwest, how it relates to racial issues in the midwest and elsewhere in the nation. It brings it up to date in a way that i thought was compelling i recommend it highly. What is your take, they ended, i saw the ending of it 28 and after the minnesota implications during the civil war and today its being talked about in not great terms for lincoln. I think it was lincoln had to make the decision he made, he potentially could have lost significant support among minnesota, it was sort of a balancing act and they had seldom atrocities they and they feel good but to their credit, never waived women raped women. The indians minnesota, the had a great deal, no question about it but they really committed some of the worst atrocities ever committed by white settlers. The nailing of womens doors and butchering of babies, it just exploded in terms that are absolutely, even by the most drastic standards were. The sentiment of being what it was, lincoln had very little trace. Interestingly, i found during the entire indian war. In the west, only three indians were in their work great deal of atrocities. Three indians were hanged and they were responsible for that. American terms of war. Thank you. Appreciate you being here with us through zoom. A great joy and pleasure. Even if it virtually. Thank you again for coming here and writing producing. You folks at home wish to order a First Edition copy, it will be signed and dated to show your copy of the book from the book of happening on the release da date. My sister, my niece and my wife. It will be something to collect and it will be wonderful for you after the event. A few things to wrap this up, the cost 35. You can purchase it from our website. If you are watching this on our facebook feed, there is a link to the order in the comments. If youre watching this on our youtube channel, we will put a link there as well. Link to the order page and go through and order a First Edition copy. You may be watching this on television not too long after this occurs on cspan. If youre watching on cspan and what a First Edition of the bo book, Abraham Lincoln bookshop. Com and you will find this available for ordering right there. Thank you to everybody participating in watching. We will see you next time on house divided. Book tv continues now on cspan2. Television for serious readers. Welcome to the National World war ii cesium virtually. I am here physically. Im the director of symposia. Today we are bringing this program to you, a hurricane a couple of hours away from