After the american dream. You can also watch all of our past programs any time at booktv. Org. Good evening everyone, i have been working with our coauthors to maximize the visual presence. Theyve written a very engaging book thats attracted many review since it came out a few months ago. The basic premise of the book is that the most important thing that the athletes get is a quality education. The book is structured into four sections, the history of the scholar athlete, profiles of high achieving athletes and how scholar athletes when and how to reform the system. The book makes the case that varsity athletics and Academic Excellence are not mutually exclusive. Both play an Important Role in the development of personal bonds and core values that lead to a happy and productive life. To add to the voice today the current pandemic is causing athletes, universities and the public to question the status quo. We will be using an interview format today there will be plenty of time for audience questions. As rebecca mentioned, please submit them using the q a button at the bottom of your screen. We are delighted to have john a as our moderator. He was a scholar athlete at university and played tennis under coach john lebar. Now hes a tenured professor at harvard in one of the foremost authorities on the Antislavery Movement as a professor professor of english and africanamerican studies. John has written two big sellers and many other books for scholarly audiences. He served as historical on two major Motion Pictures and i understand his lectures are among the largest and most popular in harvard. Johnb. Thanks jane. Its a great pleasure and honor to serve as moderator tonight and its great to see coach. I been in touch with him off and on, you are both great inspirations in terms of how to remain brilliant and lucid and industrious into the 60s and 70s, i dont know how old you are but you are a lot older than i am. Let me begin with the question, what inspired you to write marching toward madness . I know because i read them, you published other books, but more about the crowds and the art of tennis so to speak. What inspired you to write marching toward madness . After 53 years of teaching and coaching at three different institutions, i have concluded that bigtime athletics have lost their way. I wanted to show into this book by illustrating players that i have had and still in touch with and how successfully we are being both great scholars and great athletes at the same time. This book is something ive always wanted to do because i think this message needs to get out to everybody that these two things, academics and athletics are not exclusively opposed to each other. You can do both, it takes effort but you can. Thats what inspired me to show everybody its possible. Allen, your career, youve been a very successful journalist and writer, you published as mentioned of the acclaimed book and details stalins massacre of abwhat led you to collaborate with coach lebar . How did your relationship began . How did it evolve . I would love to know more about the collaborative aspect of the book, partly because i coauthored and collaborated on books myself. Collaboration as you well know can be quite tricky. We have the good fortune to be introduced by one of the students that john is biased and abto ask him if he wanted to write this book he asked if he knew someone that might serve the writing role and he recommended me. So our friend tom white in Tennessee State brought us together for a launch and getting us involved in this project was not a hard decision for me. I had listened to john halfway through the lunch before i was convinced that he really brought an encyclopedia knowledge to this challenge. He did it from both sides of the equation. He led dennis from the bottom rung of the acc to the very top. He graduated, his players all graduated, every one of them got a new degree and almost half of them went on to get graduating degrees. The academic side of the equation he served for 15 years as director of undergraduate studies so it was clear that john would be a great guy to team with. I also sensed and that lunch discussion that john was full of great stories. He had maintained lifetime relationships with his players and these guys that really had done some extraordinary things. That told me that there was a lot of Human Interest material to go with the more substantive material about problems with college athletics. Finally, i just like to say it was evident by the end of that lunch that john and i probably could establish a high level of rapport. I have to say, this turned out to be the best collaboration of my career. Thats great, you briefly mentioned or alluded to the problems of College Sports, i wondered if you could outline and more details of the problem of College Sports and solutions of the book authors. Allen, you can add to that. One of the problems that i think is most prevalent to everybody is that our these athletes really students . Or are they athletic performers. The universities have to make a decision as to what they are going to be and i think the only way to do that is to be sure to let everybody know that is on the varsity team or any team at the university that academics come first. And athletics come next. The other problem is athletes spent about 40 hours per week in their pursuit of athletic excellence. If you spend 40 hours a week in there, im not sure how much time you will have left for academics because you are actually exhausted mentally and physically after that total commitment. The other one i think is fun is the most prevalent is the win at all costs. I think weve gone into a situation where if you lose, there must be something wrong with you. Losing is not always bad but winning at all cost brings about in coaches the temptation to cheat to win. If you cheat and you win, you dont get fired if you win but if you lose who get fired immediately so the two are just in total conflict. I think those are some of the main issues i think we have ab did you want to add anything to that . I think you covered it very well. I would just add that this is a huge aspect of this problem is a tremendous pressures that are exuberant up and down the line of these universities the boards of trustees, the president s office through to the athletic departments in every level there is tremendous pressure exerted on the athletic departments to perform and win at all cost becomes the main piece of the whole exercise. I think i could illustrate this with a great story that you have in the book. Its about a very prominent president of Oklahoma University widely respected man in 1951 he was testifying to the Oklahoma Legislature on the budget plan and when he got through sleepy old senator woke up staring at himself and he said i want to know what kind of Football Team will have this year. Without batting an eye doctor a said, we are trying to build a university that our Football Team can be proud of. That was widely misinterpreted and there are stories that were nationally criticized mr. ab doctor cross who was an esteemed academic. The point is still relevant today. The athletic establishment of our major universities all want to know and want assurances about, Football Team we will have this year. Interesting. You both refer to football and bigmoney sports so just to followup question in terms of your solutions, do you see a distinction between football, basketball, for example, versus tennis, swimming. And what are, if youre in a position of power, and the head of the ncaa, what solutions would you implement implement to recover the scholar athlete student athlete ideal . I think in my opinion the very first thing we have to do is convince the most important thing is to get an education. I think the people that are really in charge of the universities are the trustees of the universities and the trustees make the voluntary practices may be held in addition. You can readily determine our guests even how thats gonna work out because the coach is really an autocrat in most cases and the coach is going to require additional 20 hours a week in the student athlete is going to have a very difficult time not complying with the request. We need to and the abof the athlete and that is a huge problem part and parcel of that is the fact that many of these kids are on a one year book if they dont play well enough if they dont get injured they can be cut. This is just not morally right, it needs to be addressed. I think changing the status of the relationship of the athlete when its a vital part of what needs to be done. Thank you. Both of you used the term scholar athlete and student athlete, is there a difference between the two . And if so, what is it and how does it relate to the solution of the problem of College Sports. I think theres a significant difference. The student athlete if you dont know a student athlete if they keep a 2. 0 grade average they are fine, no problem. The scholar athlete as i coached my tennis team assumed we would always have at least 3. 0 and have to maintain 3. 2 grade average when. Today with inflation almost everyone can maintain a 2. 0 grade average. The other point is scholar athlete in my opinion i would think allens also, have the opportunity to to give back so significant things to society and we post in our book several players to show what they give back after becoming physicians or lawyers or mbas or whatever. This is critical. Doesnt mean you cant do that if you are not the scholar athlete but it just means when you are a scholar athlete, your probabilities are significantly higher to making contributions. I dont know if alan wants to add to that. I would just say, in addition, there is sort of a timeline involved in this comparison between the student athlete of today and the scholar athlete of yesterday the late 19th century up to world war ii the scholar athlete was one of the quintessential ideals in American Society was made famous one of the first scholar athletes of great note is William Henry lewis played football for harvard in 1892 93. He was the first black allamerican in the country. He went on to great professional success and became the highest ranking black in the u. S. Government as an assistant u. S. Attorney general. People admired him. 1899 i think october 26 the issue 1899 and had two students standing in front of the University Gate with a hand on each others shoulder, if this was an iconic image in the article the magazine talked about how this is emerging into something apartment in American Society. Thats the kind of thing continued all through the first half of the 20th century and it was embellished by fantastic athletes like byron white who later became a u. S. Supreme Court Justice he was a consensus allamerican in 1937, a first in everything, every class he entered he was the first tenant. He was also a Rhodes Scholar and became a very successful professional football player, almost simultaneously. These images are what stuck in the publics mind and all of that began to decline after world war ii when we had a series of very very extraordinary cheating scandals and the public began to sour on the athlete and whether the athlete was being educated. Thats great, and its true for decades and decades Rhodes Scholars also tended also to be athletes. Its true. What do you two see as the Major Barriers to reform . Is it money . Ncaa . If you could do one or two things to change the system . What would be the Major Barriers to reforming it . And being able to recover the scholar athlete idea . In my opinion, i think you just have to go back to the universities and try to sell them on the idea that they are not in the entertainment business they are in the business of education and once they get that cemented in their dossier, if you go and look at Universities Mission statements i think i found one or two Mission Statements of all the university Mission Statements that even mention athletics. Mentions of universities is kind of deluded when you have student athletes who clearly dont perform well academically overall and so we have to say to ourselves, whats the best thing we can do for a student who comes to the university is to give them a firstclass education that will last them the rest of their lives if they go into the pro sports their career will be anywhere from three, five, six years what they do after that with no degree . I think we have to convince universities that theyve lost their sight they put too much emphasis on the athletic side, showmanship, thats what i think. Alan . I will just add one thing. A huge problem, huge barrier to reforming the system is what to do about the ncaa . The ncaa has lost tremendous credibility. It will either have to be ultimately have to be reformed or replaced. We can in the discussion we can get into options for a new alternative to the ncaa. Its a major issue that confronts and stipends progress to genuine form. Thank you. In the book you describe pay for play which is a relatively new term for paying College Athletes for endorsements. He described that as folly, why . One could argue that a College Athlete why not offer money to College Athletes as part of their sports and why would that have to get in the way of the scholar athlete . You want to take this, john . Go ahead, you start and i will chime in. I think this whole pay for play thing has spiraled somewhat out of control. Thats our perception of whats going on. Theres a couple of points here entirely overlooked in the bandwagon atmosphere with the College Players. First of all, how many are we talking about . Very likely or probably reliable estimate we are only talking about between 250 and 350 athletes nationwide so they are going to get under the current proposals the get the ability to license their name and the soul so called in il get the money to start to be hinging out of compensation, they are probably going to burn through it very quickly, they are going to leave School Without education. So its not a solution. John and i are adamantly in favor of compensating the College Player but the compensation needs to take the form of an education. Thats what is needed. How do we do that . We strongly feel that a portion of the Revenue Streams for march madness and the College Football playoff ought to be dedicated annually to this issue and ought to go to the universities with a major stake in the game and they should institute problems that in effect we call for lack of a better term, lifetime opportunity to complete the education, john can tell you about the next example, he knows about it personally. So they can go back at any time, they can get while they are there the classwork so they can play the sport without missing out entirely on the educational aspect. And the fun aspect of going to college. So if there is need for remedial study section, two should be applied. Yes we are for compensating the athlete, we think its a very very much needed solution and there is one at hand but its not just throw in a little bit of money at athletes and hope that it satisfies them and then they go away with no education. Thats great, john, do you want to add to that . I just want to say, the unintended consequences of the end il are astronomical. I will give you couple examples. What we call those people who get money do we call them students or employees . Will they have agents . And spend time more time now the 40 hours they have been spending on the team making commercials, signing autographs which leaves even less time for them to actually participate in academic endeavors. I just cant understand how this is even going to happen because right now there are several states have enacted laws in their state promoting nil and its so confusing because they are all different. Nobody knows who manages it, who orchestrates this whole mess. Is just going crazy because everybody has this guilt thing that athletes arent getting paid for bringing in this money. I agree we need to do something. I will give you an example. We think and athlete leaves early and doesnt get an education, drops out, plays pro, whatever, his scholarship should be for life. If he decides. For years a scholarship . The scholarship if he leaves and has two years left, his scholarship he could come back anytime he wants to and regain his scholarship. I will give you an example. 38 years old came back and got his degree this year at Duke University. We should say we want every one of these athletes to get a College Degree we think its very beneficial for the rest of their life. We are willing to say, we will pay it for the rest of your life but we dont think we should pay 250 people just because. They are going to make a fortune in the pros anyway. Thats my attitude. Its a great idea. You have a chapter in the book on, sports which is after the past 20 years a fairly new phenomenon. Pointing the way to reform. Can you elaborate on club sports . I will start and alan can chime in. , sports or in between abthey have to play other teams they have to run their own show themselves, their travel, pay for their own uniforms. I think one or two have a paid coach. I know ice hockey does. Most have a graduate student who cautions them and maybe gets abthe point of it is, they all feel get the same benefits you get from playing varsity athletics. We talked to several of them and they all say, we practiced 10 hours to 15 hours a week to get the most most of us are good scholars making great grades and most important thing to them is still the academics. But they learn a lot of things participating in Athletic Competition such as preparation, such as perseverance, never give up, those things can be learned that arent necessarily learned in the classroom. I think thats one of the things, they make friends for life just like you do on a varsity team. These are really good and they dont cost much. That is fascinating. I think its really important. In a sense its almost as though youre suggesting that today where the scholar athletes resided in club sports. Thats about right. There is still a lot of scholar athletes but they are in the club sports. Thats exactly right. I think a lot of the nonrevenue sports theres a good number of scholar athletes but i dont think in basketball, football, baseball, some of the bigtime sports letter the money revenue sports is just the ones that cause the major lack of economics influence. Your book you summarized it briefly in the beginning, its a richly textured book that uses history to enlighten the present and shape the future, first chapter is a brief history of College Sports as a way to understand the present moment throughout the rich portraits of scholar athletes from the past. Im interested in having you elaborate on how the history as you so richly detailed could shed light on the present and shape the future. What roles do we have to have in helping us understand the present and pave the future . And what would you say to cynics who argue that the world of College Sports is so utterly different today that the past is dead . I can take a crack at that. Thats in essence is an excellent question. I think the old phrase, the past is prologue, applies here. Thats not to suggest that everything is perfect in the preworld war two era. The endowment studied athletic programs of 112 colleges in 1929 they sent investigators to the campuses to investigate what was going on. They found out that 84 out of the 112 were operating in some corrupt way. This has been going on for a long time but with that said, there was tremendous reservoir of feeling in the preworld were two era for the College Athlete. People did look up to them. They saw them as a role model. Players, athletes like i mentioned, henry, William Henry lewis the first black allamerican. Incidentally, both of his parents were slaves, what an incredible accomplishment for him to make it all the way to harvard coming from that kind of background equally inspiring byron was white, theres never been a greater, scholar athlete that he was hes the most was one of the most admired men in america. I think the past is definitely prologue. We have to realize we still, as john just said, are producing a lot of scholar athletes they just happen so many of them to play, sports. I think we have a path forward that if people, i think people really care about this issue but if they want to do something about this and we would urge that they try, they should take it seriously enough to write to their newspapers, urge their congressmen and elected officials to Pay Attention to this issue. Its very much in the news its very topical but i think the public has yet to weigh in in a very serious way. I think thats the thing that the public can and should do and i think the benefits will be enormous because scholar athletes are playing a huge role in making us a more competitive nation. I would also add a little bit to that and say that i dont think in the history of the university that the mission has changed at all. The mission is to educate the student. Do we all love to see the sports . We love them we participated in them all our life. But what makes the world go round is not sports, its academic working people it helps other people. Im not opposed to having great athletics but i am opposed to letting it get out of hand where you dont educate people in the amount of money being spent is just exorbitant. I always asked this question, a ado we have to go away from our mission to enjoy collegiate athletics . I dont think so. Although harvard and the ivies do not offer scholarships. Would you do away with athletic scholarships as well . We actually have a quote from a big time football coach if you want to reform the system getting rid of all scholarships and that wouldnt happen really quick. He said he would fix it immediately. The competition is too fierce and i dont mind the competition, i love the competition as a matter of fact. But i think we got to put first things first and i dont think we are doing that right now. In terms of reform what do you think the first step would be . What would you think the first reasonable step would be in changing the needle so to speak . And bigtime athletics i think we have to say budgets are out of control. The first thing is to cut their budgets, all the coaches making millions of dollars. They would ablove what they do. Thats their life. If we pry them 8 million 9 million, 7 million to coach . Probably not we could cut that back and find a ton of coaches who do a great job. They love what they do. I did it for 53 years. Thats part of your blood. But cutting the budget is one thing we just got to convince the administrators of the universities there has to be some reform and reemphasis on academics. Thats my opinion. Allen . We do need to get to the question. But i will just say that what we need to be mindful that we have a lot of expertise on these issues we control, i would just like to say the one example in our research, john and i had the opportunity to meet for a good long time with acunningham is the Athletic Director of the university of north carolina. We found empathy and incredibly interested concerned party and someone with a mass reservoir of knowledge on these issues and i think the athletic departments around the country that are very concerned about it, as he was and i know we talked to tom mullen, he was a Rhodes Scholar, great allamerican hes very concerned about this issue and he said his members are. So i think they are badly needed reforms that the athletic level but a lot of the impetus for changing the system i think can come from within the system within these departments but it will take the encouragement of conformed alumni trustees, fans, the public at large to have any meaningful impact. Thats great. Any questions from the audience . Yes. This is jane, lets take a couple questions from the audience. One of them is, how is the pandemic tolerating change and do you see the changes moving in the direction you advocate . I will say this, i dont think theres any choice now with the pandemic budgets are going to be reduced. But if the pandemic is over in the near future, i dont see any way it will go right back to the same pattern everybody likes to everybody likes the big time and money. The ncaa worst of all. Thats how they make a living with bigtime sports. They are big time business, billiondollar business over 1 billion stop so i think the pandemic will make a difference, yes, i think the pandemic, we cant overlook the fact, they dont how to cope with this in certain instances. Will they be humble to go back to normal . I think the pandemic is gonna convince a lot of people that the status quo aactions will have to be taken to get this system sorted out and back on track. A lot like so many of us know have gotten used to working virtually. Of the workplace can be the same post pandemic, probably not. I think we are looking at major societal changes and this pandemic is a huge influence. Okay. In a sense you are saying the pandemic could be a major catalyst for change in College Sports. Right. We have a question for ab as a professor at harvard how often does your abhow does the athletic fortune show itself in your life today . In several ways, i continue to work out in my whole life ive seen a symbiosis between mind and body that the life of the mind and the life of the body are intimately intricately interconnected. I feel as though i am a better teacher and scholar if i stay in shape. I feel as though i am a better athlete abi primarily work out just to stay in shape so i dont really compete but i feel like whether i run with my kids or still play some tennis, i am more focused, im better if im also continuing to cultivate and focus my mind. The focus of the mind and focus of the body are intimately interrelated. I also in one of the faculty members at harvard the varsity sports the Oversight Group are faculty members, and one of the faculty members at harvards varsity sports. We are dressed as a committee all the questions that come up. As you know, harvard like the other ivies there are no scholarships. There is need blind but in harvard and theory, i know this is true at harvard that an athlete who applies to harvard has to have the same academic achievements that other admitted students have. At harvard a comparatively large percentage of students scholar athletes and harvard are at harvard, something over 25 and what is especially significant for me as the average gpa of varsity athletes at harvard are at least as good as the non varsity athletes. In a sense, most students, its difficult but most students whether you are varsity athlete or whether you are right for the harvard crimson journalist or interested in politics, increasingly and i think its expanded because of the depression back in the early 2000s, its increasingly students are part of the purpose in college is not only to get as good of an education as they can but to professionalize themselves. They will devote 40 hours a week to their studies but they will also devote 40 hours a week to Something Else if there an athlete they devote 40 hours a week to their abis there an artist they devote 40 hours a week to that. If theyre interested in politics the institute of politics at the Kennedy School is essentially run by students. So they are immensely hard workers and divide their time between academic work, classroom work and other work. In both cases ideally it is something they are passionate about, they are passionate about their major, passionate about coursework, passionate about their work they do. Could i make one quick comment, i happen to see a question from nancy makar, it flashed on the screen and i couldnt read it but i just wanted to let the audience know that nancy is probably the leading authority in the United States on title ix and gender equity. Shes had a fantastic career. Nancy was the outstanding athlete in the 1984 olympics where she won three gold metals and one silver. Shes teaching a class at rutgers in Sports Management i believe and she has quite a few of her students on the program tonight. We are delighted to answer her questions. She made a comment, not really a question, talking about the fact that 4. 5 students participate in sports and that men have twice the opportunities that women do and as we know, women who participate in varsity sports tend to be very high achieving and essentially the fortune 500. 80 of all the ceos and fortune 500 that women participate whether chairman of the board they all participated in varsity sport in college. Its very very important that women have equal opportunity in terms of varsity sports. We do have a question, this is a fascinating discussion, how is it abhow was it that colleges became minorleague for professional basketball and football and can College Sports be reformed as long as professional sports leagues use college as an important element of the minor league . My feeling about that is the thing that changed mostly was when television came in to be. Everybody saw what it was and they made so much money off of it and that changed the whole dynamic of sports in general because now you have a national audience, they know all the players. When i went to Duke University we were on two television games. The whole season im talking about basketball. They were very good teams but nobody knew who mike was except me he was on television twice but now they know everybody so it just changes the whole dynamic for sports. That is a major change in my opinion. The money became significantly higher with the abrevenue. A mention was made of the Rhodes Scholarship. To understand the athletic various accidents have been dropped from qualifications for the scholarship . Does anyone know . I write recommendations and is still part of it it is still part of it but so students it still part of it but there is not the same i would say expectation but the same focus on being a varsity athlete. And the question in the application essentially relate it to athletics or some sort of physical condition, a lot of students are not varsity athlete but they describe a way in which they exercise the body. Its much more openended type of question. I would put in a little plug for the book here we have been appendix which we call representative but not definitive list of scholar athletes and put quite a bit of research into that. Its a phenomenal list of people men and women who made their mark as scholar athletes very people. I want to thank all of you who took time to listen to us and present our book. Thank you very much. I have some information about the book on the screen we have a website, we have a facebook group, twitter and of course you can buy it at quail ridge books. Rebecca, i believe you wanted us to and at 55 . I am here. [laughter] 7 55, as long as there is no other questions. It looks like were there are no other questions. A huge thank you to everyone for coming, thank you to our panel, thank you for asking questions. I will reiterate, please do, we have copies of marching toward madness available at quail ridge books now. If you submit an online order we are offering Free Shipping so we can send it to you are you are welcome to come to the store. Our hours are 10 00 a. M. To 7 00 p. M. Monday through saturday and 10 00 a. M. To 6 00 p. M. On sunday. Thanks everyone, i hope you have a great evening. Tonight on booktv and prime Time Military historian ben mcintyre recalls the life of soviet Intelligence OfficerUrsula Baldwin who gathered information to help the soviet union build an atomic bomb. Neuroscientist abel eagleman a alaw Professor John fabian which examines the relationship between law, epidemics, and Public Health guidelines. New yorkers historian David Reynolds take a look at societal influence that all starts tonight at 7 10 pm eastern, for more Schedule Information visit booktv. Org or consult your program guide. During a Virtual Event hosted by politics and prose bookstore journalist Marcia Gaston describes their concerns about growing autocracy in the United States, heres a portion of that talk. Institutions are not fixed in a vacuum they do not work on their own. They are entirely dependent on all these conditions and also dependent on the abthe way donald trump treats the courts the way he treats the law is the way Real Estate Developer in new york treats city hall and its regulations. He sees it as an obstacle and something to get around. Correct me if im wrong, you know much more about this than i do. I think the American Court system abim not sure you can make a system that doesnt take into account the possibility of that. When he comes up with the battleground 2. 0 abtravel ban 2. 0 the whole system abin new york our Real Estate Developer would try to get around interference. You want us to call the ally so that we have the illusion of flight in error find. Thats not how courts were designed to function. The states that americans have invitation i wouldnt call childlike i would call religious. Its fake. Its not belief, its not reliance, its not a meaning for a relationship. Is a relationship that doesnt take into account that we citizens of this country create the conditions or fail to function. As to the question of the election, i try to thread a needle in a book because i have a real problem with the idea that donald trump is an anomaly. Solely an anomaly in american politics. Yet i also have trouble with any type of abmy argument is that he was predetermined and anomalous. A quantum leap from abthe electoral system has been eroding for a very long time. The manage of money in politics which has grown in significance and they shared amount of money over the last couple decades is what allow donald trump to happen. When you ask, how are we going to know if we have abwhen did we have free and Fair Elections . What are free and Fair Elections . Im just avoiding the whole question altogether, what i would rather ask is if there is still a chance we will get rid of donald trump . Are we still, im using the term to come back to it later of the stage in establishing hypocrisy were still reversible. Im assuming for the purpose of the discussion we are still in the attempt stage of hypocrisy so in that sense its incredibly useful. What im actually most worried about is that he has very clearly laid the groundwork for disregarding the results of the election if he loses