I titled it a Promised Land because even though we may not get there in our lifetimes, even if we experience hardships and disappointments along the way the nightly still have faith we can. A more perfect, not a Perfect Union but a more Perfect Union. Good morning and welcome to a very special edition of Washington Post life. I am Michele Norris opinion columnist for the Washington Post and founding director of the race project and for this very special conversation this morning im joined by my dear friend elizabeth alexander, poet scholar and president of the injured w. Mellon foundation. Good morning elizabeth. Good morning michelle. Its wonderful to be together. It is wonderful to be together and together we both welcome our guest for this conversation the 44th president of the United States, barack obama could i assume you recognize that guy in the middle. Good morning, sir. K dies. You brought up the big guns for this one. We are so excited to see you. Im very grateful that you guys took the time. We are so excited to talk to you about your book that this is a News Organization so we have to begin with a little bit of news overnight we learned astrazeneca has joined two other Drug Companies and their success with the vaccine trial that is a 90 success rate. I wonder what you think about the challenges of distributing a vaccine and if youre at all concerned about a drift toward a new world hierarchy and for some people that may be access to the vaccine and some people dont. Thats going to be the big challenge but i think we are all excited about the results. They are better than a lot of scientists anticipated and now the challenge becomes how do we distribute it rapidly and how do we make sure that people are willing to get vaccinated. That is both a logistical and economic and public messaging challenge and look it has not been made easier by the fact that we have had an incoherent federal Communications Strategy to say the least when it comes to science and the whole science around covid. My understanding and im not obviously a scientific expert here, is that part of the challenge at least for the first two vaccines that were developed is that they have to be stored at certain temperatures and that puts an additional challenge on distributing it widely. I think one of the first tasks toward for the Bided Administration coming in is going to be to make sure we have clear protocols about who gets it first, whether its frontline workers, people who are the most vulnerable and then move forward from there. And then we have to consider the International Issues because historically what has happened is when you have drugs developed like this they are expensive and oftentimes very poor countries are the last to get it if they get it at all. An International Court nation around the process will be very important and then finally as i said we are going to have to make sure the public messaging counter asked whatever suspicions conspiracy theories, the antivax internet is pretty powerful and we are going to want to make sure we roll that out in a way that elicits trust from the public as much as possible. We are starting to get a sense of what Joe Biden Administration will look like and youve seen some names that are very familiar to you including Antony Boykin soon the new secretary of state. Will he be able to quickly convince european allies that the trump pompeo period was in aberration and tried to restore trust in the working relationship with some of the allies that right now have a rather closed arm view of the United States . I know tony. He was my Deputy National security adviser was joes foreignpolicy adviser when joe was Vice President part of our inner circle and all of our key meetings throughout my presidency. He is outstanding, smart, gracious, a skilled diplomat, wellregarded around the world and i know he will do a great job. The reports are that Jake Sullivan will serve as National Security adviser. Wicked smart, young, energetic and i think its going to be outstanding. So you are seeing a team develop that i have great confidence in. I think its going to be important to recognize that the confidence that our allies have and the world had in American Leadership is not going to be restored overnight. They are going to be greatly relieved and pleased to see people like tony you know at various conferences around the world and returning to the traditional leadership world that the u. S. Is played but there is going to be a lingering sense that america still divided in some of the shenanigans that are going on right now around the election, that is making the world question how reliable the u. S. May be. The reversal of u. S. Divisionsomethings like the iran deal in the paris accords are going to. Some innovations in terms of entering into agreements, not always being certain whether or not they would be reversed by future administrations so there has been some damage done that is going to take some time to dig ourselves out of. But there is no doubt that joe has got the right people to do it and im confident he will be able to do it. One last question before we turn to the book about your role in public life. We saw you very active than they president ial campaign for your former Vice President. Will you participate in the campaign for the Democratic Senate and those running in georgette . I think its a critically important election great if in fact the democrats win those two seats than they would have a sliver of the majority in the senate and with the Vice President as a tiebreaker tiebreaker and so i will ask what im asked to do in terms of being helpful. At the end of the day thats going to be determined by the people of georgia. Im always flattered when people say broccoli need you in he. Its going to make all the difference. Ultimately i think what really made the difference are people like stacy runs who been working for years in the trenches galvanizing and mobilizing people to recognize their own power. I am a huge believer in grassroots bottomup work and i think that what started with her Gubernatorial Campaign and that she perpetuated and others got involved, thats the reason that george went for joe biden and that is what i think its going to take for us to be able to sustain this down the road. If i am doing some robocalls were some guest appearances, it gets people excited but ultimately its the people of georgia recognizing their own power that makes all the difference. Thank you. We want to get to a discussion about your book and im going to turn it over to elizabeth who will start the questioning there. Hello there. Let us talk about the writing of this wonderful book and i wanted to put out to the idea that autobiography is a Great American genre. I think because america believes in itself and the eye and the we is what we get is a collective picture of ourselves and autobiography so im wondering when you were writing a Promised Land how you thought about the genre and how you thought about writing the autobiography and held the tone developed as you are writing . Part of it is america believes in itself and part of it is one of the essential elements of being american i think is this idea of self creation, right . We are not downed by whatever station we were born into. Whether that is mythological, whether its fully reflected in the reality of class barriers and race barriers and others is part of us that we have internalized that i am going to get out there and make something of myself and certainly my first book dreams for my father was that kind of story as me as a young person trying to figure out racial identity and how i fit in to this new world first in hawaii and then in places like new york and chicago. There is no doubt that i learned to write also in part fromhe personal narrative. If you ask me what is a book that taught me to think about how i would like to write and what i would aspire to write even though i cant write that good, it would probably be the book by jes baldwin and not a biographical essay that tells a story and his internal but also paints a complete portrt of new york and race andreachers and. There is an entire world from a few square blocks that suddenly gives you aicture of all of erica and a sweeping history. I read books like that and that was my creative writi class. There is no doubt what i thought about writing is a president ial memoir could those were my models as opposed to a traditional president ial memoir when i met with king such and such or Prime Minister such and such. And how well i succeeded in tracking that kind of more literary approach to it will be up to the readers but that was certainly part of what i was trying to do. Of course James Baldwin didnt have to stick in long explanations of the financial crisis or nuclear negotiations. Every once in a while youd get that poetic flow and then he realized oh you know what ive got to do a little history and a little work here and trying to find out talents was sometimes tough. Thank you. Michelle is going to ask se more now. When you were writing this book ding a period of tumult and transformation america and when you read e book you have a conversation with yourself an theres all this noise happening in the world and you have to decide to what degree did to nab out or lea again. This is a periodhen your policies were under interrogation and in some cases ing truly erased by the current administration. How much did that influence you when you were writing this book lacks imagine it was almost like having a 5000pound elephant on your shoulder while you are rking on your own work. Its interesting, i dont think it affected it out much partly because even though i ended up breaking it up into two volumes i had a pretty clear sense of the arc of the story and i know how the story ends, at least at the end of my presidency with donald trump coming into office. I had already internalized and understood that what his presidency wasoing to do and what he stood for, so all this stuff was happening while i was writing wasnt really shocking or surprising to me. I would say if anything, what probably influenced the book that i was writing may have been a growing sense of optimism based on for example what happened this summer in the wake of the George Floyd Murder and seeing young people mobilize and activate themselves the way they did. Actually strengthened my conviction that in fact despite the backwards movement that my successor represented on things like Climate Change or Voting Rights orconomic equity, that there was still this underlying Forward Motion that was going to be carried out by future generations that have been affected by my presidency and that would help lead us going forward. If anything i probably got more convinced about the story i was telling as a consequence of what i saw particularly over the last ye. Is there anything aut yourself that you learned in particular when you visited your first four of eight years in office . You know, i think i came to realize how much i loved the people i worked with. I knew that but the more i wrote, the more i appreciated how gifted, hardworking just remarkable the people who were part of my campaign and part of my white house word. You guys have read the book so you know that i devote an entire chapter to iowa for example and my ear for iowa is a guy named paul who remains a friend of mine but as i was writing about him, his eye was talking about this guy who comes from a small midwestern town, conservative, who is not a flashy guy, kind of grumpy in his external behavior but deep down there is this hugely idealistic guy and he leads the team of kids to win the state for me and eventually launched us on the path to the white house. As i am writing about him and hed be embarrassed if he heard me say this because he still kind of a grump sometimes or sarcastic and sardonic, i just realized how much i appreciated him and how remarkae he wasnt he was not a big flashy figure. I think time and aga as i wrote it just made me appreciate the degree to which any worthwhile endeavor is collective effort. Particularly the president of e United States tends to be elevated as this singular indidual hero or villa depending on your take of any particular president , but really he and hopefully at some point she is jusa front man just the front person to a much broader endeavor of a bunch of people who are making enormous sacrifices and bring huge skills to bear and just try to move this big behemoth of a federal government in the direction that can help more people than its currently doing. I love to writing about it and theres probably more than i loved writing about myself. There was great excitement for so many reasons including you were the first africanamican president that what you may not know is the are many people who are excit that the first africanamerin writer had become preside created and its the truth. Dreams from my father was taught in africanamerican literature classes alongside books like frederickouglasss narrative the autobiography of malcolm x books where reading literacy as freedom more very important ideas that were completely carried throu in james from my father. Also there is aicture of you a few days after that firs election curing of look of llected poems while going to your daughters sool so there were peoe who said, the public all cheered and said theres something about holding complexity simultaneously that poetryoes. An we thought oh he does that too. What i would like to know is what has youbeing a writer, a iter writer how has tt informed your governance in your leadersh . You know its a good question and i think a timely one. Because the essence to me of writing is being able to use your imagination to stand in somebody elses shoes and see through their eyes, to engage in this radical at of empathy and shapeshifting where you can say all right i can imagine what it might be like to be a young girl who is enslaved in antebellum south or imagine myself as you know, an elizabethan duke or whatever. Both as a reader and as a writer and my politics i thinkas always been premised on this notion that, that in fact america work its going to be because we are unique among greatowers and being able totogether one people out of all these diverse strands of people who show up from everywhere with different cultures food music and somehow it works. E pluribus unum, out of many one and in that sense to me that is the least consistent with the writers sensibility. Walt whitman is to me describing not just the american counyside, he is describing americas best politics. Abraham lincoln when he write the second inaugural and that is a work of literate as he is imagining both sides to this great confct and what it means. And ultimately es with malice towards none and Charity Towards all. So that i think informed everything i did. What is interesting and you saw thisuring my presidency and you see it and some of the responses to the book to a Promised Land in our current political environment we have a lot of impatience with that kind of being able to see the other side and i think there have been a couple of reviewers and commentators who say look at obama, hes on one side and these overthinking things and the implication i think is if you can see the other side and somehow you are paralyzed, that the writers sensibility means that you cant make decisions that you are stuck because you dont know which way to turn and the irony is that in fact for me it was the opposite and i tried to explain this in the book and maybe some folks are just impatient with it. Its precisely because i can see both sides are all sides to a problem or an issue that i would then feel as if i was making a good decision because i have seen it from different angles and this idea that overthinking problems was or is a weakness in politics i think is indicative of a culture in which we want to simplify and eliminate all gray areas and just have our way and beat the other team as opposed to solving problems and figuring out how in fact we come together. And in part i suspect at least on the democratic side seeing donald trump eliminate all complexity and just do whatever he wants rardless of the consequences and demonizing the other side prompts i think sometimes the sense of, thats what we should be doing to. We dont need me fancy overinking poetic sensibility. We jt need a this is what we wanted we are going to go and get it. I think that is a mistake because i think the outcome in terms of policy and that being really bad. Yo end up making poor decisions and look high and the bookith bin laden the raid in abbottabad. Its hugely complex and formed by us looking at a whole bunch of different angles to the problem of bunch of exhauste discussions and meetings but that didnt st me from ultimately saying thats what are goingo do and it may not work. The sensibility is critical and useful so long as you recognize once youve seen the complexities of any problem you still have to make a decision and then be willing to bea the burden that your decision is not going to be perfect but there may be some tragic unintended consequences to the decisn and you have to be comfortable with that as well. You mentioned and is so interesting yo mention whitman and i keep hearing i am large that contain mtitudes alliance and i know you know well. I contradict myself. Theres nothing wro with it. There you g there you go. I would love to hear you talk about but youve given us so many wonderful descriptions of your rummaging in your grandparents garage and going to a Sidewalk Sale and when you are in new york city and columbia readg and reading tell us about another book that has been transported to you. Well mtioned Toni Morrison and that was another book i wanted to write. Its one of those things where if you asked me what is the kind of talent that seems like its just magic dust sprinkled on meone and suddenly ty can write a book like that, it was the kind of book that after reading it i said my goodness how es somebody do that . I decided to take a shakespeare class in college. And just reading those tragedies is that same kind of feeling sick how is it someone could capture so much of what is essential about a human life . And yet still have a story, and a plot, and interesting things happen . So that you are carried forward. You know, i think, when i think about the great works of american writers, whether its faulkner, hemingway, or langston hughes, i also see what i mentioned earlier. That part of myself that is constantly dissatisfied and restless. To see whats next. Leaving the past behd, but always being drawn back to it. When i think about my own work , i have been sped just as my character has been shaped by that quintessential jack carol act open road. Looking west,eeing what is next. Or in the case of somebody like douglas lookingorth to see what is next. But either way wanting to break the chas of whatever constraints we were born into. And bound too. Host thank you. I would like tosk you about the organizing structure or the frame for the boo the book begins with a section lled the bet. And it ends with a secti called on the high wire. Which suggests that you are not sur if t bet has yielded dividends. And its interesting, the notion of a bat being a way of oking at your presidency and your life. And perhaps the question of whether a nation blt erotic cultural defaults, built from people who look a certain way could hold ints hand democracemocracy. Its tt democracy thats willing to elect someo from outside our minority culture. How did you use that is sort of an organizing principle for the book . And is that word for you the tour aract the entire story began . U guys were talking about my literary influces. One of my profound political influences, that i write about in the book is godly. He famously titled one of his works, my experiments in truth. And so, if you track gandhis career, hes basically starting in south africa where he is advocating on behalf of of colors and develops some of the techniques he then takes for their independence movements. He keeps on trying stuff. And seeing if it is going to work. And developing a set of principles around nonviolence, nonviolent resistance. And i thought about that when i started getting into politics. Not because i thought i could mimic extraordinary life and success. But because it was a good way of thinking about a political career. I had gotten a good education, i knew i could support a family, if i failed theres only so far i would fall. I would not be on the streets. I could afford to take some risk. And the bet that i was making from the getgo, even driving to chicago to be a Community Organizer and then running for the state senate and writing for the u. S. Senate and ultimately running for the presidency was this belief that it was possible both to have a progressive politics that actually won elections and garnered a majority of people. That you can put together multi racial coalitions. That despite our racial divides it was both possible and necessary to bridge those divides in order to advance a progressive agenda. A bet that somebody with as weird a background as mine, and a funny name could help lead such a coalition. And maybe the biggest bet of all that i could participate in politics of the highest level without losing my soul, right . I think the cultural stereotype that not just power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But political power is inherently a game of shady deals and insider maneuvering. And so all of those were some gambles that i took. And i think that first part of the book describes the nature of that bet. And it is a bet on america. Americas place in the world. This volume ends with that bet not having been decided. I and up making a particular that about whether bin laden because if i get that wrong i may end up being a one term president. But, as they point out at the end of the book, despite the success of that particular endeavor, the broader question of whether or not the kind of political world and public life and public trust that i am hoping for is achievable, that is still open to question. Because i deliberately and with the contrast of this incredible collective endeavor that was the bin laden raid. With the circus that donald trump has concocted. Most things are happening exactly the same time. It is an indicator that it is not at all clear which is the more prevalent trends in american politics. Fifty conspiracy mongering, racially charged, spectacle . Or is that this deliberate, thoughtful, professional analytically provost process of solving problems in getting this stuff done . At the end of the book we dont know yet. Someone suggests a quick question about that circus or spectacle. We started hearing the first rumblings of that, what you describe a sara palin produced a few pale and it seemed as if the dark spirits had long been lurking on the edges of the modern Republican Party. Xena phobia, paranoid conspiracy theories, they are finding their way to the center stage. When you first heard that, we had a chance to revisit that moment in this book. I am wondering if you feel you should have pushed harder against those forces . If you shouldve heard something more loudly when that surfaced . And if you would have pushed harder what would that look like, what would that sound like when you write that portion of the book . Guest i dont know what that would mean to push harder against. She was the nominee on the other side of a contested president ial race. I pushed pretty hard right beating her. [laughter] and john mccain. We won by sizable argent contesting that worldview. Host but the opposition faced repeatedly for the party that refused to work with you. Within this a jew think i might temper optimism and that you might appear with the different levers of power . Guest look. A couple observations. First of all, i probably should note, and i tried to do so in the book. That may be in interviews because people remember sara palin. They are less likely to remember for example pat buchanan who is peddling that same kind of politics act in 192. And before that. There is a long history of this. The difference i think with palin is she became the nominee. Whereas with pat buchanan, despite and doing well knew primary George H W Bush really tried to sideline him as much as he could. Until this was the first act of that kind of aroach becoming central to republican identity. A really consuming and overwhelming what had been up to that poi is viewed as a more establish responsible brand of republicans conservatism. Postelection by the time i am president is no doubt by the time im writing about this im wondering if there are steps i could have taken to counteract or challenge more directly these kind of attitudes that were lurking in the Republican Party . Look, im always wrestling with this. There is a school of thought that i think describes in the book there were critics within the Democratic Party who felt as if i tried for too hard for too long to reach out to be bipartisan. To accommodate republicans, to assume the best as opposed to calling them out and aggressive in going after them. And i understand that impulse. What those critics never describe for me was what exactly that was going to do in terms of me actually getting things done. As opposed to feeling good. Perhaps their argument is that i wouldve rallied my side and we would have seen higher turnout in midterm eleions and so forth. Because people are ultimately motivated b sense of a fight as opposed to trying to cut deals. But part of my goa in writing this book was to clarify for people the degree to which the country really is divided. This is a big complicated country. And in order to get anything done, certainly legislatively, you have to figure out how to pick off and equipment are folks who are more conservative than my base in chicago, manhattan or san francisco. When we denouncing or decrying attitudes that were not sufficiently woke was not going to get me more votes. To do with clite change or what have you. At least my first two years when i sll had a majority but was hamred by a filibuster role the sene which is one of the villains of my book which was nonconstitutional rules tha arose out of a bad decision, that es up creating a super majority requirement in the senate. Give that was a reality at the time, the only way i could get stuff done, i needed been nelsons vote. Th nelson was a conservative democrat from nebraska. He had to be conservative to get elected. I had to get the robert burke in my first two years. Venerated in the senate but also a former clan leader. The states economy was based on coal. Joe lieberman who was part of our caucus and had endorsed john mccain in the race against me. He was part of our caucus. I want people to understand there is a prophetic voice, there is a prophetic voice that a civil rights leader or an activist or a Movement Leader can can used to motivate and mobilize and change society. That prophetic voice often times make it open up policies for politics. Changing peoples hearts and changing peoples minds. But the language of politics itself is very rarely moved or shaped by that kind of prophecy. Because ultimately you need bot both. Mario cuomos terms it is prose and not poetry. Part of my challenge as president was campaigning in some high poetry. Viewed in a brighter sensibility to describe who we are what we might be. Millan doing with mitch mcconnell, then nelson, robert berg, sometimes progressives in particular overestimate the degree to which high rhetoric was going to actually move vote. Host what i wanted to add to that, where want to go from there is youngeople. You said youere writing this book explicitly to younger people. So what is your diagnostic for the Unfinished Business that they have to take up as they move angside them. And as theyome to lead us . Back i am so excited to see this generation coming up. Us old folks would just get out the way it. [laughter] on that is true. Culturally that is true in terms of politics. I think their instincts are really good. It is Second Nature for them to believe that all people have intrinsic dignity. It is Second Nature of them to not discrimate against people because their differces, race or gender identity. Who they play too. And, they are sophisticated, they are smart, they are taking in culture from not just all across the country, but all around the world. And they are highly idealistic. The question for them is how do we build institutions that will work in this modern era . That reflects those good impulses . I think the big work of this nextgeneration is to channel their natural idealism as well as skepticism on existing institutions into a rebuild of the institutions to work for them and can meet the current challenges. Lets just take the criminal stice system. I think young people understand the need to remake that. In a pretty significant way. And there challenge than is going to be how do we get granular about reimagining what policing would look like so that for example we are not sending Police Officers with live ammunition to deal with the homeless person who Needs Mental Health services and an intervention. And there is a way to deescalate. But how do you practically do that . How do we create, on the Climate Change front. How do we actually cate an economy that can still provide jobs for young people . And keep the while of the econy going. Bu actually is going to preserve the plane for our kids and our grandkids. Weathers wage laws are gun laws are immigration reform, there are a whole bunch of things that americans believe in and yet y cannot get congress too anything about it. Why is that . The are all kinds of stitutional reboots that have to be done and that is going to ruire not just imagining better outcomes, but it is actually going to be some reengineering. Some tinkering to make these institutions work better. That is hard hard to do. The best example ofhat is the fact that we are not going to be ae to get voting reform so that everybodys vote is counted. So that it is easier for everybody to vot. That everybodys vote actually count and terms to influence congress. Not going to be able to get that done and to get over the hump of having t majority in congress to pass a new Voting Rights law. And in each ofhese cases you have these barriers. You have to get over the hump in ordero create institutional change that is necessar to keep things going in a better direction. Host will have a little bit of time left. As an obsertion we had in the book early readers h a chance to div into this. And they particular appreciate your use of character. Her usef language. The way you expla really difficult topics and make them accessible. What are things i appreciate your willingness t talk about flaws. In the steps you have made. Since you want young people to read this but i know we doot have a lot of time. If you could quickly aress whether that was done t leave breadcrumbs for the next generation . To know that most peoe dont come out into leadership fully formed. Its harder and harder to work in public life. Is theeason you did that . Youre one of the more coident people i know. Wargames is not something you d do. But you let people understand some of theistakes youve made. Look, we all have kids who are roughly the same age. They are remarkable. They are far superior than i was at their age. But they are also bombarded with this message. Paly because of their phones. And they are seeing People Living there best lives on instagram. And they are hearing about Mark Zuckerberg was a billionaire by 27. They are comparing themselves. Against which they assess themselves are so out of whack. What most of us are actually experiencing in our 20s and 30s. That i worry about them sometimes. And i want young people to see that somebody who ended up having a fairly successful political career, did not know what the heck he was doing at 23, 24, 25. That even well into his 30s was still experiencing doubts, and confusion, and making mistakes. Even when i was running, and on the cover of Time Magazine attracting these huge crowds i would make gaffes. I would botch a debate. And that is okay. I probably cannot transmit this through aook. I think it has to be liv. I think i tried to describe one of the great gifts of being my age now is im just not afraid of much. Because i have kind of ive been knocked down about two times. I embarrassed myself. I have publicly failed. And people have written entire articles about my feelings. I have been criticized and ostracized. And demonized. But you know what . Im still here. I am okay. And that is a hard thing to internalize in your 20s or 30s. But to the extent the book can help a young person say okay, you know what . Its worth me taking a chance. Its worth me trying hard things. Its okay when i screw this up. Because that is part of the process. Then i think it is worth it for me to it be able to share that. Host one last final quick question. The most beautiful moment in the book to me is when you are in oslo, he won the nobel peace prize. You look out the window and i see of People Holding candles aloft. You say, if i maam it will read your words. Whatever you do wont be enough. I heard their voices say. Try anyway. What do those words means you now . Guest i think that is what we tell ourselves hopefully every morning when we get up, right . That is not unique to politics. Life will throw stuff at you. There will be disappointments. There will be pain. And there will be loss. And we know that at the end of the day we die. That is the one certainty we have. This is temporary. And yet there is this massive possibility of joy along the wa way. As long as we try. As long as we are open to it. As long as we expience it. And more than anything as long as we reach out and are sharing this time on earth with others that we love and care about. And that hopefully we are continually expanding the circumference of that love and concern. To reach more and more people. Because that fills us up. That is not just a political point of view. That is a writerly point of vie view. That is how we that is how we get to the tough times and enjoy the good ones. Host and unfortunately are out of time for it we could go on but the clock tells us we will have to say goodbye. Elizabeth, it has been so fun to conduct this conversation with you thank you so much. What a joy thank you michele. He went in president obama thank you for joining us, helping us understand your writing process in writing the book, thank you for joining us. Guest i appreciate you guys to great writers. Thank you so much. Book tv continues now on cspan cspan2. Television for serious readers. Good afternoon. Welcome to our carnegie book talk with david nasaw, author of the new book the last