Word. From the Nations Capital to wherever you are. Because the opinion that matters most is your own. This is what democracy looks like. Cspan, powered by cable. Host thanks everyone for joining us for this really important conversation. Not just about this book, aboutu the challenges that we have of country people in the together. Elizabeth, this book, it was a thrill for me to read it here in part because theres a little confirmation bias going on with me and i think a lot of what youre talking about are things that ive experienced personally, from Rural America but also things ive been talking a lot about and to have someone write a book and provide all of this incredible research and Data Analysis that you do in this book that confirms what weve been saying for a long time, which is we are not all that different in this country peer and so the first question i have for you because i look at your bio and you have written about art in new york. Youve written about celebrity comes written about a lot of different topics but you havent written before about Rural America and so as the daughter of danville pennsylvania what drove you to write this book . Guest thats a wonderful question, stu heitkamp. Thank you for asking it and thank you for being with me today. Two reasons actually. I have a always been a student f culture. My earlier work i look in the production of culture, particularly artistic culture and creativity come byy later look, last book look at the conception of culture and, and why we consume certain culture and at other culture in that book i really started thinking deeply about this concept of Cultural Capital because sort of the resources we amassed in terms of education, in terms of what we read, what we watch, what we listen to and that these become signifiers to the world at large and something that resounded a member reading a sociologist piece on thise, whih really stuck with me, which is that everyone has culture i think would happenep and in my last book i really delve deeply into this was his idea that theres this elite Cultural Capital, New York Times, wall street journal, listen to npr, you went tove an ivy league university, you have a law degree. Univariate kind of attributes that associated with a particular kind of Cultural Capital and i really started thinking that we had this wrong that this was it, this was a form of Cultural Capital picked wasnt the only form of Cultural Capital peer i really start thinking about it visavis where i grew up because i grew up in a small town in rural pennsylvania. Im the daughter of irish immigrants. I was born in West Virginia, and this collision occurred where i washi thinking about this idea f Cultural Capital what he really meant and how its different for different people along with what was going on with the 2016 president ial election. Thats when these ideas started percolating for me, which was everyone in my circles and the media i was really talking about how w Great America was really angry and thats why they voted for donald trump and thats why we had this divided country peer i thought about the place i grew up and kept the place i lived, i dont know 13 years of my life, and i thought i think thats entirely whats going on. Its notme that its not some of the story but theres a deeper story. That was the kind of limit of understanding the culture of my hometown in Rural America and understanding more deeply what might be happening in Rural America rather than what i felt was stereotypical explanation of why folks voted for donald trump trendline when i was reading the book i actually thought that maybe a more appropria title for the thesis wasnt the overlooked americans but the misunderstood americans. Guest i like that. Host s but i think its absolutely true i think theres so much misunderstanding about come up with what that urban culture is, what the rural culture is in and y misunderstanding of the people who live in those places. E a lot of data on that. That i think is analyzed in a very macro sense. When people talk about rural, but you drill down and do great storytelling telling about the people who live and do great story telling about the people who live there but also draw some contrasts in how we need to lookok differently at the data looking at. And one of the spots that i was particularly taken with is this notion, because i get it all the time, that Rural America voted for donald trump because theyre the racist. And i think your book just does such a phenomenal job of exploring that avenue. Could you talk y a little bit about, you know, if you disagree with me on how this perception and attitude is about Racial Attitudes in Rural America, and then talk a little bit about why you made that such a big part of your book. Guest oh, thank you, thats a wonderful question, senator heitkamp. So theress a couple of things that really spoke to me when i was engaging in this research. First of all was my experience of living in small town america. But then, you know, as a social scientist you go in, you to do the homework, you say, well, my experiencexp is one experience. Theres a lot of observations out there that need to be undertaken. So i spoke to dozens and dozens of Rural Americans in all sorts of places from missouri to texas, to tennessee, to heart of appalachia, to pennsylvania, to ohio. And i asked them a lot of questions about, you know, Big Questions about democracy and then questions about equality in this country. And one thing that was abundantly clear to me was that Rural Americans were keenly aware and concerned about the issues of racial equality in our country as their urban counterparts. You know, it was the first thing that came to mind, you know, that people are treated differently, theyre treated differently becausebe of the cor of their skin, thats not right, weve got tohi do something abot it. And this was over and over again when id asked the question of do you think americas an equal place and, youno know, essentiay why or why not, you know . I dont think there was anyone who thought that american was an equal america was an equal place, and most folks said it was because people were treated unequally because of their skin color, some ventured into their class, how much hundred they make. But the racial element was very clear, the sensitivity to that. One thing when you do qualitative work, the people you speaking to, are they telling you what youou want to hear. They know im this west coast, you know, liberal academic. You know, my politics without even having a conversation with me. And so you think, oh, maybe theyre just w telling me what they know i want to hear. But i then looked at the university of chicago, and i know youre based there as well. You look at university of chicagos General Social survey, and they do these amazing surveys of folks, and theyve been doing it for decades on all sorts of issues. And i looked at the question on race and how rural versus urban americans responded. And, you know, the first, the topline takeaway is they largely feel the same way. They are, they are largely supportive and not supportive of social policies in equal measure. Andgg the biggest surprising takeaway for me was that some of the greatest champions for social intervention to elevate the black community, to elevate women were actually the least educated folks in Rural America. It wasnt, you know, the poster child of, you know, the progressive coastal elite that was, you know, responding, you know, to, you know, the support of certain kinds of social policies along the lines of race. It was actually these uneducated, Rural Americans who didnt have a high school degree. And i i thought, wow, that is a really surprising takeaway. And the survey results really corroborated exactly what the people i spoke to said, you know . Host yeah. And want to get into kind of the economics later on, but with i want to, i want to explore the work that you did in analyzing who is Rural America. I mean, if you probably and this is a generalization, and i hate that when i do it [laughter] but you probably talked to, you know, grab min at a mall, in sub you are ya or address someone downtown in manhattan and asked them who lives in Rural America, chances are theyre going to save conservative, older, white people who dont like us. And, you know, you do some great work talking about regional differences on who lives in Rural America. Can you talk a little bit about that . Because i say it builds on your warning to people who want to have an opinion about Rural America, builds on your warning that dont just draw with a broad brush stroke. The south is different than the midwest economically, and certainly the south has many more africanamericans who live in Rural America. In my neck of the woods, many more native americans who live in Rural America. Were seeing a growing number of hispanic people who have moved for Economic Opportunity in Rural America. Can you talk a little bit about kind of regional differences in demographics and and what prized you, what didnt surprise you and how that thatnd plays into kind of the prevailing at tuesday about Rural America. Attitudes about Rural America. Guest i think thats a really wonderful takeaway, is that, you know, to talk about Rural America, the million Different Things that is going on in these places. The one thing thats really clear to me is that even if were talking about social policy or were talking about Economic Development and we talk about rural versus urban america or just Rural America and this kind of takeaway that Rural America is in decline, you know, youve got to footnote that. I would actually argue that Rural America is thriving on a number of different metrics. But that there are certain regions that are in trouble, and theyre in a very different situation for economic, social and cultural reasons. So one thing that was really clear to me was that this idea of Rural America in decline really was actually a story about two two parts of america. One being appalachia, which is in trouble, and the other being the deep south. And these s are places that are economically depress canned, they have significantly depressed, theyave significantly lower percentages of the population with a bachelors degree or above, and there ismu not as much of the knowledge industry coming into them. And ill spend a little time with that in a moment. So thats, i think, a very different story than if you look at, foram example, you know, the eastern seaboard, if you look at the coastal west, if you look at the midwest which is thriving on so many different metrics. I mean, the heartland is, i mean, you know, if you want to have a great life, move to iowa. [laughter] i mean, they seem to be just, i mean, from the sheer numbers and the people i talked to, it seems like a great place to be. So i think that that is really important. And then in terms and you actually did a great job highlighting highlighting the heterogeneity of the ethnic and racial composition of these different rural areas. They look so much different the from one another. And also that they, yes, there are older folks in Rural America, but there are also younger folks. And one contrast i really like to make is, you know, when we talk about for vanity or city, right . For many of us los angeles, new york, washington, d. C. And so forth, and yet we also love, you know, akron, ohio, or buffalo in the same story. And yet they have a very different Economic Situation than, you know, these, quoteunquote, superstar the cities. I want to say its the same with Rural America. So Rural America has places that are stereotyped. Theyre poor, people do not have college degrees, they maybe have a higher proportion of folks who didnt finish high school, they dont have a lot of industry. Sure, absolutely those places they exist, and thats actually a real opportunity for policy to create more of a folktargeted intervention. But then you have like coastal new england or rural iowa or, you know, rural wyoming and, actually, those places have high home ownership, high employment rates, high median house hold incomes, and then you see the concentration of Industries Associated with them like agriculture in the midwest, but then you also see the trickling in of other Industries Like software and certain parts of finance that actually do end up in our rural areas despite the fact that we associate these as city occupations, city sectors. Host one of the things that i remind people because i think, again, that image of Rural America is really agricultural america. But a third of all Rural Counties are dependent on mineral extraction which has created,d, again, the places youre talking about where weve seen, you know, decline, appalachia, places where mineral extraction is not the economy that it used to be. And sobe want to, i want to tala little bit about rural selfimage because you do explore this whole thing in your book about cognitive dissonance, you know . Its kind of like here we are the rugged americans, individualists, we just count on ourselves and wee dont, you know, we dont need the government, we dont need to b, we dont need the boost up. But yet if you look, if im representing urban america and you see now gavin newsom has been doing a lot of interviews talking about blue staters edeconomies versus red state economies, a lot of thats driven by rural issues. And the and the per capita expenditure in Rural America from the federal governments much higher than per capita in suburban areas. And so you look at all these measurements and and this kind of attitude about who they are and how people look at them and i think in your book you drew a lot of, you know, examples from what people were listening to, what people were hearing in terms of their grievance. But can you talk a little bit about this chapter that you wrote on cognitive dissonance and what your conclusions were relative to kind of selfimage versus maybe the image urban america would have but also the image that data would plaintiff . Guest wow with would inform . Guest wow, thats a wonderful question. Thank you, senator heitkamp. Ive got a lot to say. [laughter] so let me cull up my thoughts here. This chapter starts out with this wonderful woman, shannon. And i met shannon through kind of a n of folks a network of folks i didnt know. Its its a method called knowball, snowball sampling where you kind of get contacts through the people you interview and so forth. And at some point, i landed upon shannons name, and i mailed her, and she emailed her and she wrote me back. That wasin one of the most warmg experiences of this book, was the fact that these folks who did not know me and had absolutely, there was nothing in it for them, every time id send them an email, they would respond. Immediately. I mean, and give me hours of their time. So shannon was one of those people. And when we first spoke, i, you know, i asked her my usual run ofes the questions, the same questions i ask everyone, and you know you did something i just kind of, i really liked her. Like, there was justs this kind of energy i got from her and just people, with we clicked. And yet what she would say was totally the opposite of how i thought about the world. You know . Just the weirdest experience of really liking her, wanting to, like, grab a coffee with her, and youre also thinking, wait a second. You are you havent gotten vaccinated, you made it very clear youre not planning to. You really dont believe in climate change. You question the 2020 election. Youre a big supporter of donald trump. You, and you are, you question marriage equality. And these were literally anat pa ma to my way of anathema to my way of being and my politics. And yet there was such a a warmth, and i enjoyed every time we had a chance to connect, i enjoyed it tremendously. And i thought a lot about this, and i realized that the problem and, you know, you cited the chapters title, cognitive dissonance the problem is, you know, this idea that that you feel these kinds ofme opposing sentiments about something, somet person, some issue, right . But in reality, i had to kind of breakthrough which i was losing sight of the things about shannon that were why i liked her. So i was focusing so much on this discord in our politics and not realizing there were really good reasons to like shannon. So one of the things that really kind of overwhelmed me was a question i asked all of the people i interview is if you had all the money in the world, what would you do . And, you know, people say all sorts of things. I would buy with my mom a house, i would go on vacation, i would pay off my mortgage, id donate it, youth know . Any number of things. But, shannon, when id asked her that question i had her that question, he said, well, i would buy an orphanage, and i would buy an orphanage for all of the children who have lostt their parents to drug addiction. Its aa real problem im paraphrasing her. And she said i would also buy all of the people, the people who were recovering drug addicts, i would buy them new teeth because you dont smile if you dont have teeth. And host yeah. Guest and it was host its incredible. Soso i have a question for you. Do you think shannon changed her opinion about the class or the group that you represent . As, you know, you talk a lot about how listening was so important. And ian think with shannon you y have said, look, i didnt want to i didnt want to tell her she was wrong on her path because that wasntt my job. I just thought that was so interesting that you interjected that in the book with, because it would have been my reaction as an interview iser. Yet that neutrality that you felt. But do you think that of all the people that you interviewed for this book that they see, you know, rural or lets just put a hable opposite, cultural elites, academic elites, do they see them differencely because you reached out . Differently because you reached out . Guest you know, i would love to take credit, heidi. I would love to. But you know what . I dont thinkn they ever judged us in the first place. [laughter] host there you go. Guest i dont think they ever did. Iu mean, you get my send my email out to these folks introducing myself, im doing this book, they see my signature. Im a professor at usc in los angeles. They wrote mege back anyway. And i would like to believe i would do the same, but i wonder, you know in would i immediately have my back up . And now i wouldnt. I feel extremely changed by the work i did. But i think thats the thing you lose sight, that they are the folks that i interviewed from Rural America werent judgmental from the get go. And shannon, you know host yeah guest oh, sorry. Please, go ahead. Host i was just going to say, this kind of proves the point of your book which is when you look y at data or you look t classification or label, then we assumptions. Guest yeah. Host but when we are operating oneonone, there really arent those judgments. There really arent those. I mean, you didnt come to this with judgment as you come to it with judgment had you, it would have been a different outcome thanen the book that you presented. But i think, youi know, i alwas tell people they say so and sos mad at me. I say, stand next to them nor 15 minutes. For 15 minutes. They cant stay mad forever. Guest absolutely. Host one of the things that you talked about, and i i think this is true from my work, you talk about how we looked at privilege differently. You know, theres been a lot of dialogue that weve got this whole example of, you know, crt and whats happening in terms of how we perceive steve perceive our history and what were willing to say about our history, and i think the privilege discussion in your book was so interesting because it reflected a true kind of difference between maybe how white, urban americans see themselves and white, Rural Americans see themselves. Can you talk a little bit about your analysis of the whole privilege issue . Guest yes. Im so glad you brought that the up, and im glad you appreciate that section because that was something that was a real insight for me as well. You know, as a researcher, you dontyt go in knowing everything by any means, so that was a real discovery to appreciate these differences, understanding of the world. So, you know the word. So, you know, right off the bat with urban americans are much more sensitive to privilege than i think even their own ilk believe them to be. Theres this idea that you have a lot of these wealthy, educated urban americans, these kind of meritocrats are living in these bubbles, inured to the troubles of the world. P and ive written a lot about that in my previous book. But when i spoke to urban americans about privilege, one it was immediately about material wealth and about having physical resources, tangible resources. And there was a tremendous amount of guilt, selfawarness. Even angst about the privilege, and at times i remember this one woman who wassen kind offed mad at hearse because she was of mad at herself because she was so aware, so sentient of her privilege and also sentient of the fact that she was not happy. You w know, she was just strivi, striving, striving. So i actually thought that it really created a much more sympathetic portrayal of our understanding of, you know, privileged, coastal elites. Rural america host no. Guest go ahead . No, a please d. Host go ahead. Guest no, no, you, please. Host i just want to, you know, when i get into these discussions because im frequently called on to explain why is it that Rural America does this, and im like, well, you know, i [laughter] i guess ill try. I dont [laughter] this is a big generalization the that whole dialogue are. But on privilege the one thing that i would say is, look, you know, they see the whole privilege argument, and i think this was kind of recurring throughout your book, the whole privilege argument as a criticism of maybe their success or a criticism, you know, kind of says, look where you are, you didnt earn. You got because youre white. And theyre kind of like, well, i dont think thats true. I earned what i have. And i worked really hard. And unit own a slave. Can i didnt own a slave. I dont have my boot on anyones neck, so why are you blaming me for the discuss parity that you see disparity that you see in society. And i think thats a reel important kind of dialogue, and i think you delved into that somewhat. Which is, look, you know, i dont i mean, i recognize that we all start from different places. Your book certainly points that th out in terms of the data. But yet i am an individual who will be responsible for only my actions, not the actions of history or the actions of others. Guest yes. Was, that was a sentiment that was clear in my interviews with Rural Americans. And i think on two fronts. First is that the Rural Americans and they didnt use those words at all. But two things that really stuck the out to me were, first was privilege was kind of defined differently for them. Privilege was about the ability to do what you want. The ability to have food on the table the, you know . Just kind of very, very basic stuff. I remember a farmer from iowa, craig, he was so interesting. He just said i just come and go as i please. I never and he actually, he was ay really endearing person. But he wrote me, you know, just recently about this as well, and he said, you know, i wanted to interview him and he said, you know, i was just at church the othere day, and the pastor was talking about white privilege. And i, i never thought about it like that. But, you know, i guess hes right, thats what it is. But i guess, i can come and go as i please. And i think that was a really interesting thing, that it was about that kind of freedom rathered than about the house ad the private schools, you know . Different kind of view of privilege. The other thing that i think you get at although it wasnt their words, but i had a few folks say, look, you know, i work reallyly hard or ive come from tremendous poverty, you know . I mean, one man i spoke to in missouri, his wife was a judge, and he said, you know, i have friends who grew up under my wife, she had, like, six siblings and they had no money and she worked so hard to get where she is. I dont know how you can call privilege, you know . She worked really hard to get here, i just dont know why we should take away from that from her. And that was his view and a sentiment that wase echoed a number of times in the conversations i had with folks in Rural America. Host and the flip side of that although not really explored in your book, was kind of the belief that if people didnt raise themselves up from, you know, a dirt floor, that somehow thats on them. And so, you know, kind of this idea of rewarding hard work and everybodys hard work will receive quality reward. I want to, i want to turn now to your chapter i actually have not thought about the appalachia, West Virginia drug problem in the same context as what you presented it. And i thought that was fascinating, about the top 20 counties with drug overdoses, 12 the are in virginia. And a lot of what you learned was this built on mining injuries, people, who work hard who may, in fact, have back problems who were prescribed opioids, ending up with this, you know, this huge challenge. And i think in this same chapter, youd have to correct me, you talk about donald trump, why vote for donald trump. And i thought it was the best description that i have heard. He was a great salesman of hope. And that came from one of your interviews. And i think so the attitude, the attitudes about addiction in america have changed. I mean, if we compare the opioid, fentanyl crisis with the crisis of crack cocaine many in the urban america, attitudes are different. And, you know, i think theres a lot of people who would say, well, those attitudes are different because of the populations that have been affected. But can you talk a little bit about this kind of depth of despair, how that plays into kind of selfimage but also overall image in the country about Rural America and about certain populations . Guest of course. So i, first of all, i have to really give a shoutout to eric ire who is the pulitzer prizewinning journalist who wrote in mudlick, and he exposed the corruption with opioids in West Virginia. He was a tremendous resource for me. I mean, i talked to him, he was really so, so helpful. Andd jason [inaudible] whos a colleague of mine at usc who studies addiction. And they both had a really interesting regional perspective that ill put into my response. So i think, first of all, one of the things that was so interesting about on depths of despair is idea of, i mean, they draw from the work on why we, people end up in a position of despair. And, for some, suicide. And whether its intentional suicide or some sort of negligence in overdose that their expectations for their lives dont match up to reality. And i think that must be quite devastating. I dont mean in these kinds of, like, you know, when youre 10 years old, you want to be famous, is and when youre 30 years old, youre a doctor with a family of 5. I dont mean that because thats still kind of amazing. [laughter] i mean it really like their lives are are ined e credible trouble incredible trouble, they dont have options, and the mining injuries are huge because what happens, of course, is that theyre already in regions that arent economically very vital. And so if they get injured and mining goes away, which it did a lot over the last 10, 15 years, then you really are in trouble afterwards. You dont have a livelihood. You dont know whats going to happen next. And youve been prescribed these drugs,re and theyre already heavily addictive. And thats that kind of downward spiral that happens in these very i isolated pts of Rural America. And another thing, and i dont, i dont know this to be true, but my colleague talked to he about this, that theres a different attitude perhaps or at least historically a different attitude towards prescribing these drugs and that in Rural America i dont know if youve had a chance to read barbara king so farer concern kingsoevers have you read it yet . Host oh, you cant see me nodding, im sorry. Guest no. Yeah. Its an extraordinary book, right . And i think she does even though its a work of fiction, because shes from the region and shese done so much resear, he does such a great job of documenting that slippery space, you know . You have the injury, you get prescribedded, the doctorsing being very casual about it. They give you too much, theyre not really thinking about the addiction. Or they are thinking aboutt it. I mean, in her case there was this whole racket going on in the town where the doctor was actually kind of essentially selling drugs on the side. But anyway, the point being that that that is this kind of unique thing. And this is where donald trump does come in. 9 and the great salesman of hope is praising, actually she used that that phrase to describe him in reviewing depths of despare for the New York Times. And despair. And i thought it was great. I actually ran it by eric ire. He said, yeah, thats exactly right. What she meant and what i see in looking at that region, this is a or person who came in and whatever you say about his politics and his personal life and thats not the topic of ourou conversationed the today he didnt judge, and he made them feel that someone was going to get them out of where they were. And hope is intoxicating, you know . It is, so intoxicating, and no one else had offered it to them. Soas its kind of so relevant as to where it was fact or fiction in that moment. It was something to believe in when they had nothing to believe in. Host you know what . When you go back and you take a look at kind of this whole, you know, kind of we take care of ourselves, we take responsibility for ourselves, but yet this addiction is bigger than just one community, its bigger it is a nationwide issue. And so its interesting were looking at the lawsuits against the opioid manufacturers, these pill mills and i just want to, want to add to your analysis about, you know, how did this happen. Theco permanent subcommittee on investigations for the Homeland Security committee actually did a pretty ebbs tensive investigation extensive investigation of these pill mills and why it was regionally you saw more addiction, more prescriptions. A lot of it was driven by money. And so those culpable hopefully will find responsibility, but i think the its just so interesting when we think about kind of addiction, the comparison between the crack epidemic and the Opioid Epidemic is really, is a just racial, is a time as we see addiction differently, you know, this kind of attitude about selfhelp and selfresponsibility. Just want to throw it out there as a kind of challenging inconsistency. I want to turn to the media because i just went through a focus group in Southern Illinois where i watch people. Universally, i dont care what your political ilk is, if you ask people whats wrong in america, theyll give you two answers; social media and the media, the mass media. Guest yeah. Host right in. [laughter] thats the root of all evil, is the media. Guest i dont even have a facebook account nhl i lost my password five yearsfi ago, and i was, like, well, thats im never going on that site again. [laughter] host youre not missing it. Guest no, not at all. Host well, andan it does, it does in some ways, you know, when you look at how disconnected we feel oneonone, you know, that ability to just text and not pick up the phone and make a phone call. But i want to read page 172. And you is ask this question why do we have such distorted views of each others opinions and beliefs, which i think is critical. If i in reality many of us have fairly understandable political perspectives. And i think thats absolutely true, this attitude where theres so much judgment about people who have different kind of political ideas. And you said one reason that a number off my interviews mentioned was the media are. Talk a little bit about their the media, what they want and how that shapes perspective and not attitudes just about, you know, their own sense of grievance if i can use that word. I i think one of the things that you tried to do in this book, and i think did in this book, was get rid of that word. These are not angry, grieving people. These are people who are fairly happy, happy with their life, have challenge challenges, yes, but are meeting those challenges and not blaming anyone else for those challenges. So lets talk a little bit about media and Media Consumption, because a lot of the people will look at this, this discussion about your book with and will be very curious about how people saw the media, what media did they consume and how that affected their perspectives. Guest so, yeah, thats a terrific question. One thing that was really clear, i mean, im really glad you highlighted this idea that i wanted to get across, that it wasnt a sense of grievance or anger. It was very matter of fact, you know . Even talking about the media it was, yeah, i think it creates divide, you know . And even when i asked them questions about, you know, what do you think, you know, elite media or coastal elites think of you, and some of them the i remember this one woman say i think a they possibly just think were a bunch of to hillbillies. But she wasnt distressed about out. It was a sort of acceptance of the state of affairs which in itself is poignant and sad too, if thats where where we are. But, yeah, so there was a real sense that the media was responsible for this fairtive. Narrative. And in terms of what they con assumed, yo consumed, you know, itt really was across the spectrum. Youu know, there were folks who consumed fox news and cnn, some folks even, you know, read some very kind of urban, New York Times, wall street journal, to forth. So in terms of the media, there wasnt a through line which i think actually shouldnt be surprising because Rural Americas a very terse, interesting diverse, interesting place with lots of perspectives. Big surprise that the Media Consumption is equal to that. There was something that ive actually argued about this in my last book too, that some of the media that was consumed would be, say, on youtube or on facebook. And there would be, you know, conversations about folks who were kind of known to promote misinformation. Expect pop i see is that a lot of our really good journalism, our really good media is really out of reach for a lot of people in Rural America. And its really out of reach if youre not willing to, you know, pay a subscriptionnd the subscription to a lot of the this media is pretty expensive. And so for me, that was a really big part of this. I think if you, if there was much more equal access to news, you know, you could, hike, for example, i have a prescription to the New York Times, and i a subscription to the wall street journal. Thats great. I can play around with these different political views. I can go on to fox news if i want to see how theyre reacting to something. I get, you know, the new yorker everyy day their daily so yu get a sense of everything thats going on when you have that kind of access. But, you know, im a professor in los angeles. Im able to afford this subscription to the New York Times. My University Provides the wall street journal for free, you know . Its different, you know . And i also kind of have a sense because of that, my Cultural Capital, of places i can get even and high quality information aboutwh whats going on in my country. Host yeah. Guest ing and that was limited. Host i want to the challenge you a l little bit on that. So if i decided i was going to have all the money in the world and i could buy with anything and i bought all these folks subscriptions to the New York Times, the wall street journal, financial times, you know, lets throw in, you know, the economist, you know, all of the kind of outlets that we read kind of on a regular basis for additional analysis, would they read them . Guest you know, heidi, its a great question. But as i say to my own children [laughter] why dont we try, you know . And i dont mean that in a patronizing way at w all, that probably landed incorrectly. What i mean is we dont know. Ask and thats the problem. We make a lot of assumptions. Oh, you know, would my friend shannon in kentucky pick up the New York Times . You know what . Shess reading my book right n. I think she would. [laughter] so i think we need to give people a chance. Host yeah. But i think, you know, by the same token, theres bias on the other side. Would they read the latest report from the Cato Institute . Would they read the latest report from the Heritage Foundation . Would they have a willingness to read what the Federalist Society is publishing . And so i think theres this media question is just so tough because with it goes to kind of a willingness to only listen to things that that you can agree with. Guest yeah. Host in a lot of this. So i want to, i want to turn yeah, because its gone so fast doing. I know. Host i want to speak to your discussion about her tock a rah city i. And this hits particularly close to home was i used to tell because iou used to tell people, you know, when i was in the senate, i just want to work for a judge that graduated from the university of north dakota. Not harvard or yale or stanford, the elite law school ares. Law schools. My own institution at the university of chicago. I didnt go to law school there, but i have an affiliation with the university of chicago. I want to ask you kind of this question, its maybe bigger than your book. Why do you think it is that society values an economics degree there from harvard at a higher level than an economics degree from the university of north dakota . Guest wow. Well, if i had the answer to that question, id be in a different business making a lot of money. So i, i think it as has a path dependency, right . Im not a historian of universities, but at some point in time harvard produced graduates who ended up for for merit reasons in positions of power, and that becomes a recursive process because we know our social capital is really important. You help people who are, you know, alumnus of your, of your alma mater, and so that past over and over and over again. Im certain, actually, that someones written a a book about this. There may also be a selfselection in the sense that at some point harvard and ivies and ivy equivalents, they becomn to produce graduates who get great jobs and jobs in positions of power, people who already have power or wealth send their kids there. Some studies have shown kids who come from families that are already wealthy or families that already have, you know, have power, an ivy is sort of you do it, but that doesnt the ivy league isnt the game changer. The ivy leagues the the game changer for First Generation College student, poor kids and if youre already rich and powerful and yourf go to this university that produces rich and can and powerful people, you know, im not sure its really a gamechanger for you. But thats what you do. So it creates that kind of stew of, you know, elitism and privilege and that also just actually, you know, the ability to be much more upwardly mobile with that degree. By the way, this is not to discredit folks who go there. They are very smart. [laughter] these are very hard universities to to get into, is that also becomes around part of the process is they become even more competitive. [inaudible conversations] host yeah. And, you know, i want to bring this back to the urbanrural kind of dialogue because with i think more and more these universities are are trying to recruit first generation students from rural areas. But i think it also perpetuates this idea that a lot of your listeners talked about or a lot of your talked about working really hard being first generation graduates of institutions but not having that institution, institutional degree of value as high as maybe more the kind of elite degrees. And so i think this idea of and i always tell students, and i said,nt look, you know, that degree may get you an interview, and it may get you hired because people like to brag i have five harvard degrees. But i said five years out it wontor matter. What will matter is your work performance, you know . And i think that in this time we dont honor that university of north dakota degree or university of south dakota degree the same way even though those students are equally capable. And so i think it adds and perpetuates maybe a sense gnat system that the systems ott not really, its rigged for those who, number one, can afford those schools or who have parents where you can get in as a i legacy. And so i thought maybe the better question for me to ask is talk about kind of that chapter on merit of course rah meritocracy and why you thought that was important to put in this book. Guest well, i thought, i put it in the book for a few reasons. One was that the people i interviewed in Rural America just werent as amped up about the meritocracy and their children being a part of it as their urban counterparts. And i knew this because i had just my last book talked an awful lot about the her tock rah i city and the at produce of people at tonights of people who were members of or aspiring to or wanted their children to remain in that world. I mean, it just was a totally different vibe when i talked about some of the same issues. They just werent ascribed. And, you know, you might say, oh, well, thats a problem. But when i looked at data on Rural America and i used the opportunity atlas, a wonderful professor at harvard, where you can track how kids do, you know, if theyre born in a certain place, what do things look like when theyre 35. And looking in the here and now at the data, i thought, you know, if i lived in many of these rural states, i also wouldnt be so worried because are actually really good. Theyre just different. I think thats the thing that was really clear to me. And i just, for me it was a learning experience because i think in my world living in los angeles, being a professor, you just assume on some level or certainly i did, i dont now you know, we all want our kids to go to college, and we hope they get to the best one, and you want them to get the best job and the best stunt opportunities. Ug and i thought, well, thats just one way of looking through kaleidoscope, you know . Peopleth have beautiful lives tt arent i got into usc or yale or stanford, and im now working at a hedge fund or a publishing company. I mean, people have very meaningful, deep lives without those things happening to them. D thehe other thing that was was just that the parents just were less stressed. And i began to realize that the meritocracy was important to the Global Economic system,ming the knowledge economy, but it wasnt the only way to be a part of it and to exist in the world. [laughter] and that you could be very, very happy without being a part of it. Host elizabeth, unfortunately, were running out of time, and have a lot more questions. Guest oh, my gosh. Wow, that went so fast. Host the economic reality, theyre just going to gehave to read the book to get e full depth of everything that you explored. But i want to close with you on reading part of your through the line, your chapter through the line. You said we must actively try to move beyond the narrative that americans are hopelessly divided from one another. We must try harder to see human. Ty in each of us. When i spoke to americans for this book, i immediately liked every one of them. And if you had asked me five years ago if i had anything to say orou understand about a pasr in missouri, an evangelical whoson prescribed to conspiracy theories, i would have laughed. Of course not. And this is, this is really so, such an important discussion because we have, we have used our political divisions, our voting patterns to tell a narrative about the American People that the i think is really unfair. And i think this book is so important to ec brother that, s. So im going to give you the final kind of few words here about this, this paragraph. And how, what advice you would give to someone who had their eyes opened about Rural America, how they could further engage, how they could participate, what we need to do as a society to bring ourselves, you know, back together not politically, but in terms of understanding, not being misunderstood. Guest oh, i, think thats you didnk a wonderful job. I will try to follow. I think the biggest thing we can do because, ill be honest with you, writing this book really changed my life and i it really challenged me in a way that is all for the better. I just its not even just politics andpo geography. Like, just everything. Understand, most people dont come from a mace of hate. Most a a place of hate. Most people have reason for why they feel the way they do. And its really important to listen even when you dont agree, try to understand. Look, democracy is messy, it is complex. America, its there are a lot of great things that come from thatat complexity. But it does require us to kind of step up and say i dont understand why this person is against p this or for that. But im going to try. Host yep. And thean one thing i would also say, this is a twoway street. So often in my work i get to hear about how, you know, the hazy people in urban america lazy people in urban america, they dont appreciate the hard work that we do. And i say why do you say that . My favorite was in north dakota, or in we know our neighbors. And i say ive live all over the country. I always knew my a neighbors whether it was living in downtown d. C. , portland, oregon, i always knew my neighbors. Guest yeah. Host and so i think one of the things that we need to, you know, kind of express as well in ththis discussion about Rural America is this is a twoway street. And not thinking that there are any real americans, were all real americans. And the sooner we decide how were going to Work Together to improve our country, to prove our move our country forward, the best. And this, i tellou, is absolutely an amazing step in the right direction. And, again, i have to confess my confirmation bias. Every time, every chapter i was shaking my head yes nodding my head yes, rather, and saying, yep, thats what i see. So i want to thank you, elizabeth. The daughter of danville, pennsylvania, which may have something to do with why you wrote this book, a a Rural Community in pennsylvania. I want to thank you forni an engaging conversation. And i wantnc to encourage everye who is concerned about the unity of this country to read this book, because i think it is just such an important discussion about a part of the country that not a lot of people understand. Guest thank you, senator heitkamp. That was im truly honored to have spent some time with you and for your kind words. Really its a pleasure. Host terrific. Read the book. This yearbook tv celebrates 25 years of presenting nonfiction books and authors. And for the 2 2nd year in a row, booktv is live with the library of Congress National book festival. And since 2001 booktv, in partnership with the library of congress, has provided signature, indepth, uninterpreted coverage of the National Book festival. Watch saturday as booktv once again brings you live, allday coverage of the National Book festival. Guests and authors include librarian of Congress Carr a la heyed, chasenuttigieg on his book i have sometng to tell you for young adults, and former nfl player r. K. Russell e, author of the yards between us. See our complete National Book festival schedule online at booktv. Org. The library of Congress National book festival Live Saturday beginning at 9 a. M. Eastern on cspan2. Sunday night on cspans q a, newsmax chief White House Correspondent james rosen, author of scalia rise to greatness, 19361986, talks about the first of his twopart biography of the Late Supreme Court associate justice antonin scalia. Scalia, i think, recoiled from the excesses of the Antiwar Movement of the late 60s, the silencing of debate, taking the law into own hands, all that shaped him in making him a better justice. You really can understand how he got tonight justice scalia. James rose. En with his book scalia sunday night at eight eastern on cspans q a. You can listen to q and a ask if all of our podcasts on our free cspan now app. A healthy democracy doesnt just look like this. It looks like this. Where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly informeded a our republic thrives. Get informed straight from the source is on cspan. Unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. From the nations capitol to wherever you are. If the opinion that matters the most is your own, this is what democracy looks like. Cspan, powered by cable. Well, good evening. Im marie anne brownlow, and welcome to hill center and to talk of the hill with host bill press, veteranet journalist, public political commentate ther, author commentator, or