Transcripts For CSPAN2 Lee 20240703

And 48 then my companion for the last few weeks every both of you for reading easier. Thank you everyone for reading the letter here. Thank you so much. Our coverage of a fast continues now. Answered yesterday. His evenings session is entitled of vision of the city, chicago suntimes architecture credit layer came in, former Chicago Tribune architect greg gerald letters. Architecture credit for the chicago suntimes is also the suntimes Editorial Board where he writes editorials on the, development, politics and lee is the of the cbook Southern Exposure, he overlooks architecture of chicagos south side of Leicester University press which showcases his architectural photography and social commentary. His photography of the environment has appeared in 19 periodicals such as the New York Times and architectural s, chicago architect, site and an International Design publication such as paul wells and modular. Unsurprised mentor where canaan was the Chicago Tribunes architecture critic were the years from 92 to 21 2000. 1. Is a new book who was the seaport, uiarchitecture, expertise and the public realm in chicago with graphite leave a moderator is gerald letters, professor of history at oral university teaches in the masters of liberalstudies program at northwestern. He is a historian and author of four books including the last location some sweet max super race and families is in chicago. Thank you so much for us today and ask you if you could please sending a warm welcome to our distinguished analysts. That he will a little upset, i introduce the system of chicago architectural criticism, didnt. I am personally thrilled to be up here interviewing these two men. Their new book was the same for his tremendous is visually beautiful is very relevant to the time reviewing with right now after ass clown so please when it out please get a copy. I think questions. Historians dominate stated that chicago is like a snake that sheds its skin every 30 years or so and was on a new coat to conform to that new reality. What is that insight to whats the reality in their . Thanks for having me and i hear. Is fantastic to be here. We were thinking about playing that cisco and either the warmup decided we didnt want to rip them off. A lot of people have been saying which one is cisco at which one is the verse. Im not old enough to know they are. But anyway in terms of the new coat, i think that the beam which lee captures so colorfully on the cover is a symbol of the new coat that chicago has put on the past 30 years. The city that sees itself as a global city thats glamorous, thats has michelin restaurants, 10 million on apartments, riverwalk , for that is no longer era recreational amenit. And unfortunately this skin is not exactly a year then a something that distracts us from whats happening in the restof the city. Thats not unfamiliar. We had a shrinking middle class, he had the industrialization and the really have to cities. The question is is that good city. Thats the kind of city we want to build. And the answer is number and thats something that we as architecture. Are in agreement on. And the point is as architecture critics we arent simply writing about stylistic problems. We are writing about human problems. Thats what its all about, the people, not justthe buildings. So thats at least my answer but i love to hear. I think in millennial park which ldis a 30 year mark, i think that once benny really is two choices. Will this next chicago be an equitable city will continue down the same path, it continues on the same path theres a risk that didnt exist t, well it existed if you live on the south side of risk that didnt exist previously, chicago cant be all worldclass city. We cant be worldclass city. And it doesnt show all worldclass city. If we all face the police on the southwest side so the skin is coming off. But what that next thing is going to emerge, thats something that has to be figured out right now. The mayors invested i dont know, so 20 Million Dollars in 10 is on the south and west sides. Thats the start but theres a lot more that needs to happen. Have architecture and urban tdesign revitalize the city . They cant all by themselves. I think its important to stress that. Just by building better buildings begins build better people. Architecture is not deterministic. But they can join with other things. Public safety, better schools. To help revitalize. And i think what were seeing here especially with the west by southwest program which has affected 1. 4 in public profit and private funds is an exact to turn the ocean liner for the oil tanker. In a newdirection. And its almost like generational products. We had started this for what they Broken Ground i think in one development and offered practical little help out 58 apartments. And restore. And is beginning. But its going to take years and years. I think anybody who knows the history of chicago realizes nothing really worth doing can be done in a single generation, not even in a single lifetime. Were building daniel burns along the is a diagram that lakefront as i wrote in 1991 series was inequitable. Some is going to take years, generations for these inequities to be fully corrected. Not just like something you snap your fingers and change. Time and money, then how long it took us to get here and the solutions will take as long if not longer and certainly to prepare in black neighborhoods in chicago theres a rivalry between redlining, even today we hear about housing appraisers who want to appraise a home for sale at the same high if the owners are black and if the homeowner is white. The only way to fix robbery is to give money and the people to put the money back in the wallet that you took it from. And we have to get our minds around. If we want an equitable city, your wife wants to spend 2 billion but heres the saying, we dont want to be in a. She wants to ilspend 2 billion on Soldier Field so we can spend the money where we want to have that used to be the old trick. You could build a park or fix Soldier Field and with this money build the sears tower but now that money has to go, must go accurately spent in neighborhoods to truly make this next run. One point in the book is that equity isnt simply rebuilding neighbors devastated by disinvestment and deindustrialization. I tried to broaden that definition of and i use the other form of equity. The convention, what works is fair trade. Everyone gets good transit. Good parks, etc. Wwe use is stock we, private equity thats kind of talking. This not the and an and greed is good but we can also be understood as the meaning of that we also can be understood through the stock market and shares sold what i for the book is a realm is equity. Its the environment that we all share, that we all have a stake in. In the words if theres an extension of the red line in history which there should be , that means if i am a Downtown Business owner, i have a letter will choose from because its easier for people who live on the far side to get downtown. Thats just one example usof was equity is. Its also i think common humanity, being motivated on Common Ground as we see and many of you have seen that, the artist who designed it was going to be this kind of contemplative experience with this sheet of water and people would walk on water like jesus and it would be a religious experience and previously he was the wrong. Ttitude is kids from the neighborhood who didnt have water parks and couldnt afford to go to water parks turned it in to their own waterpark. So thats i think important to think about equity in the broader sense, it isnt simply the south and west side over there. Future and weve seen the flip side of that as the violence from south and west sides has spilled into the north side and downtown. If you live in those areas, those comfortable privileged areas and you dont take care of business on south and west sides its going to back to bite you in many, many different in terms of violence in terms a city thats dysfunctional. Thats the flip side of equity is a shared enterprise as well. You know it bites in other words, it bites us all. I mean, just as using the Millennium Park example shows that once we get there and, were running around in that thing. Were all chicagoans, right . I mean, were at a moment where we came from. You know, once we get were all chicagoans. Well, that should be the case. Wherever we are. And and youre right. I mean, if unless we and unless we take care of all corners of chicago and see all chicagoans as chicagoans see Development Inequities on the south and west sides, just as badly justice and be just upset about that as we as we see it as we would be if it were in more comfortable areas. And again, thats the thats the test. Thats thats where we are now. Are we going to do that . And this next, as we shed the skin, are we going to that and that next or are we going, you know, try to repeat the same old thing or have some piece of the same old. And this is a and this is a huge question. Its alive issue. And it should be a live issue in mayoral race. The mayoral is going to be dominated in all likelihood, violence and safety and policing but, i mean, in the long run, if you want to have safety, if you want to a healthy city, you need an equitable city to the tour. Two are related. So i mean, as as the goes on, you know i know that the Editorial Board of the suntimes whenever i read it and an editorial in historic an unsigned editorial on Historic Preservation or urban development and lee bey tweets suntimes Editorial Board says and i know that. I know who the author really was, you know, i tried it. I tried hiding it and people and people would say, i know, i know. You wrote that. And so i gave up and just your voice is just too distinctive. And i write with dashes and i always get to be in trouble. They always know what to me. So but the thank you so revitalization in the 20th century meant building highways through, black neighborhoods and bulldozing historically buildings in the loop. In the 1970s is revitalizing an even a word that we want to use in the 21st century. Well you know, it depends on how it plays out right. Mean if revitalization means capping over some of those those depressed expressways physically to depressed expressways, not tearing down not rolling the bulldozer, but but but you know, putting together through the department of housing and whatever Capital Stack you can get to washington things that can save housing as opposed to to to demolish it if it if it gets to be redevelopment is looked at that then you know me. Yeah. Maybe we can call it that. Yeah i mean i think that new ideas have surfaced about what revitalization is after abject failures of some of the modernist urban planning schemes that gave us pruittigoe Robert Taylor home state way gardens if you look at in best southwest you really see morris cox following new urbanist principles you know principles by jane jacobs eyes on the street mixed use and blending those with an appreciation for modern architecture and Historic Preservation. I mean the great thing about lees book Southern Exposure was that it highlights many buildings in the neighborhoods of the south side that were underappreciated and so morris and Lori Lightfoot have taken a page from lees book as it were and a lot of the invest schemes are saving those buildings and using them as anchors for redevelopment, the one in particular that i think of is the Laramie State Bank of austin, a beautiful building that has sat vacant and decrepit. Four decades and is now going be part of a redevelopment so i mean, you know, i think revitalization can work and morris in detroit certainly in their downtown which was you know written off dead and gone i mean that is the revitalized vision of downtown detroit is real now the rest of the city know the jurys still out but. I think that with new ideas, revitalization can be a good thing and a just thing and an equitable thing. Okay, lets lets talk about a example thats complicated. I sure. A pilsen. What is pils what does revitalization to the people in pilsen. Thats a great question. That is a key question. And it gets to the whole issue of who the city for. So as many of you know, im sure the City Landmarks Commission following Rahm Emanuels proposed that a huge landmark district in pilsen, most of the commercial strip on 18th street. Many of the residential buildings around it, many of them characterized by that ornate bohemian, baroque architecture and lot of people thought great idea, thats going to be equitable. Were going to have our first latino landmark district. The only problem was a lot of the latinos that lived in pilsen thought it was horrible idea and. They said we dont want to landmarked. We think its going to be more expensive to preserve landmark buildings thats going to lead to gentrification. So take your landmark district and you know give it to somebody else, we dont want it. And ultimately it was rejected because the alderman of the ward followed community. So i think that shows that equity isnt a simple thing its a desirable thing but it aint easy weve seen also the same phenomenon occur with the 606 there was an open space imbalance where. There was tons of parkland along the lakefront not a lot of parkland inland. So rahm emanuel says, you know, im going to solve this problem and. They build the 606 and the developer does come in and start bulldozing and three flats building, putting up Single Family luxury homes people who had lived there for decades got forced out by higher rents and then had the irony of people in the neighborhood marching against gentrification on very public space, the very linear public space that was supposed be for them. So its a chess game. Its a three dimensional chess game. It never simple. And you have to think about all the steps that are going to happen when your good intentions try to promote equity because good intentions can to some pretty bad results which arent careful. But what you know what that tells me is that and this is we talked about this on the and ive been singing this song talking to the National Trust about this three years ago at the big confab here. That tells me once that the Preservation Movement locally and nationally diverse enough. I tell you i stepped in it writing i wrote the editorial supporting landmark district a landmark district in pilsen and friends of mine in tulsa called up and said, you know, we know you wrote that. So i couldnt deny, as we discussed. But but then it really began to really begin to to to to share very much what blair said. And i think some so and so im thinking, you know, there needs to be, you know, any not any. But you know but but active latinos, mexicans in the community, new long before i wrote the editorial that they didnt want this and there articulate the reasons why but their voices are heard along the way got heard at the end through the ottomans and certainly the you know, know you know, you know, you know if were going to be equitable about a thing, it cant be the same saying now were going to be equitable. I mean, there has to be new voices blacker voices, browner voices asian voices, all those, all things into the mix. If were going to build an equitable city, build an equitable Landmarks Commission, not commission, but at landmark system, then it has to look different than than it does now. Otherwise youre going to keep getting the same kind of thing where its like, well, we didnt know. Well, you didnt know because youre not in a position. Ask any anybody. I will say this how i say this without getting in trouble. No, theyll lets start. Its kind of like siskel and uber we kind of like disagree about well thats thats right youre right youre jane youre absolutely wrong. Come on. Tron is a great movie. Right . Right. But but years ago, a few years, there was this theres a there was Malcolm X College, right on the west side, designed by jean James Summers and thomas beatty, actually in a marvelous phase. Hes better known for postmodernism architecture. Now. And, you know, this thing had been in trouble, in danger for years. The city was seeing asbestos. It was a beautiful a laid on his side worthy of preservation. So you had this architecturally significant building, but then you also have this other piece got happening where it was the first public building named malcolm x at the opening ceremony. Harry and betty shabazz, malcolms widow, came. They raised tri color afroamerican panafrican flag. First time it ever been raised in public building. And they sang i probably i just had it was one of my why why why they gave a black power salute inside for those first couple of those first early years. You know it was and instruction i mean so you that were new this was 1971 so you had a modernist building and you had modern thinking about how to educate and cause africanamericans. That to me is a billion desert going to National Register immediately right. They wrecked it, i guess, in 2015 and when i began to talk about this at the end, i wasnt the sun times, that was where it was at 15. I dont know when i was doing, but i think it probably was at the university of chicago and doing other stuff. People in Preservation Movements say, well, what we know, so how can you not know this giant as you know and it had been in the newspapers, you know, for so but but there was but what it really means meant was there is nobody in their in their sphere no one in their world who could say, hey, listen, you know, need to save prentice hospital. Yes, we do but well we added this also take a look at Malcolm X College because that thing is going to go thats the thing that has to change as well sorry for the long spiel but i had to get that off chest. So ive read some architectural criticism in day. I dont remember equity being used as a word in 20th century. So are we are we in a new paradigm now in terms of equity in architecture . What does that mean . Equity in architecture . Well you know, its funny. When i did the lakefront series in 88, it was all about equity and i dont think and the for those of you who didnt read the series the series, one of the stories in the series pointed out the vast inequity between. Lincoln park on the north, bordered by, white, affluent neighborhoods and burnham on the south, bordered by black and largely poor neighborhoods. It was a difference in acreage amenities access and i dont think the word equity ever appeared in that. In that series. But i mean, words like separate and unequal did. And so that series essentially was, you know, the framing was the Civil Rights Movement and brown versus board ed. But those were i mean, you know, but that was an equity issue. One thing i just want to say, i agree you completely about the the need for multiple perspectives and multiple in landmark parks and whatever. I would say this, though, as a white person, as a person who lived on the north side, a person who had a privilege growing up, etc. , i do think that as journalist, if you bring empathy, curiosity in, in an investigative zeal to a project, you can learn things that you wouldnt necessarily know from lived experience. And thats not to say i completely agree with you that, you know, growing up on a on the south side, you would just know things from your experience that i wouldnt you know, you knew about the what was a bone, right . Yeah. The twin of Carl Schurz High School that i didnt know about. I admit that but i just want to i dont in great reckoning that were and post george floyd i still think that as you know a White Privilege person that still have something to contribute but you always have something youll be a place for you youll always have a voice. No, always be something to contribute. Right. Im saying is that theres other that need to be filled in. I agree. But in other words. But i think that today there is a tendency for people to say youre not woke. Blair, youre white, youre privileged. We shouldnt listen to you. You dont have that lived experience. And i agree with that. I really dont. I think that if if that had been the attitude, i never would have written the lakefront series. I think you and i both wrote series in the nineties that were that were deeply focused on equity. I wrote the lakefront. You wrote the bronzeville series. I mean, there were parallel parallel journalistic enterprises right. You but i mean, i think were in agreement on the fact that process matters and participation matters. And its good. Its really important terms of equity. Who is the city for if its to be for everybody everybody should be part of the discussion. Right right, exactly. And bringing in other voices doesnt mean like we mean writing about bronzeville didnt mean all of a sudden city doesnt want to hear about the white man. The tribune writing about the lakefront. But what would typically what typically in hand had happened . Im im the first, last and only black architecture critic in. And im 57 years old i would say only 57. But that sounds old to some of you. But but so that says something about whose voices are not heard. And so it means the about bones story about some of the stories about bronzeville. You know, some of the things may everything and so the Southern Exposure just about if it werent for my voice and im saying this this a shame this right this is shame of how of how things are that that is its the voice that looks like mine is the one thats excluded unless we punch our way in this. Theres a way made for us. I got to say i dont agree completely. I mean, i wrote, im white. I wrote about the emmett till house, knew that the emmett till house was important. I knew that gangs on the far south side was. But theres always place, right, jean . Theres always a place for you for voice. And there should be no but but listen, listen, listen. I left suntimes in 2001 to join the mayors office. Right. And it worked so am i. Got to see some of my old partners of old coworkers and some of them. And i came back to the beat 21 years later, 21 years later, when i when joined the suntimes as Editorial Board writer in, 90, and then became architecture critic in 2000, just this year. Think about that mean i walked away from the beat and there was no architecture critic. There was one kevin nance. Wow. Kevin had it for a little while, but but there was. But, but, but there wasnt one at that. I mean, and then i mean months, i mean, maybe a year. A year and change and he got put in features i like kevin and we still keep in contact but he wasnt doing that kind of stuff. He wasnt given the position to do the kind of stuff you and i could could do. And so i come back 20 years later, bald, you know, with gray in my beard, my kids in the back and and and and if i decided, well, i dont want to write critic criticism anymore, ive done it already that that that position be vacant another another 20 years now ill say it may still be vacant at the tribune but thats more of a economic choice that theyre making. And not a the other thing that were talking about. So can we talk about what we discussed on the phone the other day . Because i thought that was really important when i talked about the fact that ive had a handful of africanamerican female students as history majors of the last 20 years. I saw their voices are not on Historic Preservation committees but your solution was do you remember. Yes so my so know so again looking at looking in you know all the old places and finding no people of color. And were saying, you know, you know, in journalism too same thing gentlemen journalists fight the same battle. Oh, we cant find qualified minorities to fill these positions. Its like youre looking the wrong spots in the in a city like chicago every block, every neighborhood, every community has person who knows how to get something done. They can get like street turn back on. They can get the cops make an extra patrol. They can do all those things. Thats the kind of energy and and in many cases, in black neighborhoods, its black women. Thats the energy needs to be brought into the Preservation Movement. Here. I did a story for years ago. This is a gary, indiana. Theres this great church designed edward dart and. The the congregation wanted to get National Register status for and there was a woman in the its a black church and a woman and a woman there whose an engineer had never written a National Register nomination before she wrote it got it right and its its on the register. Why she was that she was smart first of all is smart and secondly it happens to be in that church congregation. Shes a person that people could go to to figure out how to get a thing done. How do we get collections up . How do we get whatever churches need . She was that person, so she basically took the skills that she had and brought them to the preservation and did this and that. And there are people all over chicago, you know, women of color, black, black men, men of color who are in this not by age or or or or other, but they know how to get a thing done. Thats the voice i want to see the presentation. But when we talk about voices, i think that, you know, one of the points of the book the book has. This 55 columns that i wrote from the decade of. Roughly 2011 to 2021. And in many most of the stories have post scripts which show the outcome and bring the stories into the present. And i think one of the underlying themes of the post scripts is accountability and impact, you know, trump put up the stupid i ripped it it became you know a big issue and he called me a third rate architecture critic and. You know i got today show to run a correction on air and but then you know rahm as a result of that partly probably because he hated trump you know got a sign ordinance for the riverfront and there you know innumerable things rahm you know got rid of key people on the Landmarks Commission and put on tony who restauranteur who later wound up in the slammer and i cant remember but i said it was like the worst trade you know since the cubs lou brock for i know whoever they traded him for but the point was and those people were never reappointed to Landmarks Commission later so the key thing for architecture criticism in it goes back to the idea of the shared public realm is accountability there needs to be someone likely like me who holds the architects and the architects of our public spaces accountable and questions what theyre doing as its happening not in a seminar held by academics ten or 20 years after the fact, when its too late and too many lives have been up, but now, right in real time, right when its happening and i mean, thats what chicago, which prides itself as the city of architecture, architecture, capital really needs. I think its fantastic that lee is back. The suntimes writing once a month architecture columns, as well as those unsigned that we all know that hes really writing. But i do hope that either the suntimes or the tribune or some other media will have regular architecture criticism and that focuses on downtown down, which we all seem to have forgotten this discussion. You know, the Health Downtown matters for everybody. It generates 40 of the property revenue in the city. If downtown doesnt respond creatively to the postpandemic era, your property taxes are going to go up. Chicago because, you know, thats somebody is going to have to pick up the load. So there are all these New Buildings going up downtown. They need to be, you know. Like jim gach has a practically 1000 foot skyscraper on this right across from the archdiocese. Theres a new skyscraper his firm has designed right next to union station. These buildings to be assessed not for style alone, but for their impact on the public and what they they teach us about the standards we should be bringing to new construction. So, i mean, thats you know, theres kind of a story behind the story in the book. And its really about the importance of architects, criticism and accountability journalism, which we both practice, albeit in different forms. So is there currently an Office Building glut downtown. And whats going to happen . Hell yeah. So whats whats going to happen or whats possibly going to happen politically . And what do you suggest should happen . Dont start. Oh, you give me question. Right, right. All so i think a few i think that, you know, i think that many these buildings, you know, you know, you know, they may have to become resident and excuse me, you know, there may be more education institutions having to move in them. You know, it cant just i think the day of the although, you know and people thought the day of the office tower was over 20 years ago, how many has it been . And today were exactly 20 years ago, 20 years ago today. And it turns out we in a building taller buildings. So theres always that thing. Yeah you never quite know for the young ones. After 911, we thought that the day of the Office Building, the tall Office Building was over and we built score towers of tall Office Buildings across nation, across the world. Since then, the Tall Building isnt dead. So i dont want to quite pronounce the Office Building ditches yet. But i think that it may have to adapt right that that there may have to be schools and, residential and other things. I was i was i was at the century c and consumers buildings you guys have probably kept up with the fight over that this is too early 20th century skyscrapers at the federal government wants to demolish. This is an example of writing about something in real time. I an editorial in a column about durbin responded to my column and i was like oh good. A senator reads stuff. I mean, he hated it. And i didnt mind that was is well long story short it went before Landmarks Commission thursday they kind of punted they didnt give it they didnt to give it a preliminary landmark. They basically said, well, we more time to hear what federal government is so afraid of, which i think is a b. S. Answer. But one but one of the things thats interesting about landmarks, commissions report, a verbal report about the building was the woman the historian for the city talked about was term she used but essentially these were these were these the floors of the building the Century Building the older of the two. These were essentially streets where were in in these buildings where, you know, people couldnt afford street frontage. Right. So they could have space in. These buildings and the hallway with big windows and that kind of thing would act as a as a street would. Thats kind of fascinating. And so in 100 years ago, we knew how do this and i thats that kind of invention that that kind of reinvention maybe has to come come into play here. But i mean, i think its ironic that morris cox, the planning commissioner, who i think is a terrific Public Servant and has really the the visionary behind the Investor Program is down on the the crazy dome Soldier Field proposal. I cant believe it. I mean it goes against every principle of keeping the lakefront open and clear free. You know, youve already got this spaceship that landed on you know the parthenon and now you know he wants to build you know like you know the darth vaders you know death star and put on top of that, you know, as a triple layer cake its nuts. And i why is he spending time on that other than just a cover Lori Lightfoots but if the bears leave town, why morris spending more time on coming up with Creative Solutions for the downtown and these fraught questions about it whats the future of downtown going to be in the postpandemic. I mean we you know i say in the book only a fool would truly answer that question thats why i gave it no thats not like there its a no i said the wrong thing wait but in other words no. The point is that i mean, its an impossible question to answer. And we really we we dont know, you know, lee was exactly right when he talked about willis tower and everybody thought, you know, that was going to be empty. But then it filled up again. And everybody thought after 911, you know, remember cocooning, everyone was going to be cocooning in their little places, you know, if you were scared about terrorism. But then years later, Millennium Park opened and we were all out in public space again. So i mean, the long game is that a lot of businesses need people to come together to form. And you if youre going to train your employees, cant just do it virtually. So, yes, you know, downtown is going to have to change. It may. Some of these buildings may become more residential, etc. , but over but over time history has shown that downtowns have centers of culture. I wouldnt write off downtown. I would be trying how to revitalize it. Okay, i have to know an answer to your question before we finish today. We are going back to former president s. All right, i never understood the opposition of the obama president ial center. Can you explain to me who the opposition was and was this sure. To they have a point. There are activists. The neighborhood just to the west to the center. And the people would get priced out. Hey, we want benefits from this. We wantan jobs, we want grantees about housing. We dont just want the this to be Woodfield Mall lands in the neighborhood. People drive in and drive out and theres no benefit to the community which is a politely reasonable thing. Now you get into the whole messy thing about they wanted grantees and obama didnt want to give it to them. But that was the i think that was that was part of the opposition. Its a homestead park. You are going to put a freaking skyscraper, 200 plus feet tall, your ego is practically as bad as trumps half a football field. Who is the city for . I cant imagine that discussion in a houston or a dallas, does that make us more cutting edge in terms of issues. Are we in the forefront of the social change. I live in cambridge, massachusetts. They didnt want the j. F. K. Library. Its go ahead. It does happen in other cities. I think may feel them inn different ways, deeper ways than perhaps other cities do where it isnt, you know, an elite and some elite group of people. But it really is my neighbors in pullman and i cant even walk to my car without somebody jumping me to ask me, well, what do you about that library . What do you think about this and and and i tell them a little bit. So its said every almost stripe, you know, of, of the city. But i think that there were conflicting visions more conflicting visions of equity in Obama Library. You had economic equity. You know the south side is always getting screwed need an economic engine to rev up and provide jobs and everything for the south side. Thats a powerful argument and thats probably the that carried the day politically. But then you had, you know, the activists who are saying well, yeah, were going to get screwed like the people and you know around the 606 and then you had people who were upset that they were cutting down trees because of, you know, tree equity. I mean, theres every you know, theres gender, tree, equity. I mean, everybody talks about equity like its, you know, its the holy trinity diversity equity and inclusion equity. Good, good. Well, its not that simple, folks, you know, and thats one of the things that you worked inside the Daley Administration and me having critique some the things you did at the Daley Administration did know that. Yeah, its not a simple thing. That is, you know, its really complex when youre in the room, as you were, those are the issues that get batted and theyre tough. Its true. And and, you know, at road equity to that thing i swear i got emails from people saying preserve cornell drive it its like right. Oh yeah, preserve. Cornell, youre right where you want us to shut. But but yeah but the we are so Everybody Knows those were people those were like hyde parkers who wanted to get to their vacation homes and in michigan quickly i cornell drive is like one of the worst examples of the highway building binge of the fifties and sixties. You know lets just cut cut a freeway right through. Jackson park. I mean, what a moronic thing to do, you know, and like people are going, oh, we need to save cornell drive. Its like, give me a break. Yeah. So what you brought up parks what do parks what role do they play for us is chicago ends in 2022. Great question. Well, you know you know, this is this is a great question. And parts of chicago, including the lakefront, always been contested space. Right. I mean, going back to the wade ins and Rainbow Beach in the sixties to, you know any you know, the violence in marquette in the sixties. So its always been a contested space. So one of the things that i in this century is that, well first of all, you know, they provide a you know, theyre the physical of the city. Its where you go, where its cooler, where theres fresher breezes, all kind of things. Its its very much what Alfred Caldwell said, who designed Montrose Point Promontory Point and the lily pond, lily pool, lily pond and lincoln park. He said, its for people who people buicks. Right. People who cant get way to the to those michigan. Beach houses. So so so it has to be that in so has to be that it also has to be and you know and you know and we do this in a city you know, well build a museum in a park i mean, weve done this before, but we also have to get rid of this idea and is where critics can come in. Im coming in of not this idea of using parks as as empty spaces right where we can build something there. You know i you know when i was when i was in the mayors office, my gut told the statute of limitations has run out. I dont know how many on this story. I dont know how many times that me the mayor had to have long discussions about washington because he thought, well, nobody uses and i was like, you know, these arent places that are designed for you to be cheek to jowl, you know, you know these are places to get away from that, you know, you know, so so this idea and the Obama Library had will do this to the run up to it. Well you know jackson park isnt really used it is it is used just for it is used for so i think long story short, you know preserve parks for for the benefit they give the city but also to change we how politicians think government think thinks about parks as being these places we can just build on because well start to lose them and lose more of them if we dont. I mean, i think one of the interesting about parks and theres an essay in the books that covers this is that theres the olmstead vision, the industry era vision of the park as refuge from the city. You know, this is when we had a city of factories and smoke and overcrowd tenements and olmstead has kind of paternalistic idea or democratic really was that you know again if you didnt have the michigan vacation house, you you go to that park and that was the kind of new or the Green New Deal its era. But i think weve seen that parks now do Different Things for they entertain las Millennium Park does they give. Ecological pleasures a heightened of nature as the nature boardwalk in park does. Thats jeannie gangs remote of an old victorian park was essentially just a pond that you would row a boat across and now can immerse yourself in nature in that park. And then we have things like maggie daley park, which is who as michael van valkenburg, the landscape architecture, it puts it, its not a refuge from the city, its a refuge in the city. And what i he means is that when you go to that, youre not in a kind of made up rural or pastoral landscape ala olmstead but rather your climb you know climbing wall or youre onto an ice skating rink or youre roller skating, youre in a wonderful playground area and these are these these are different conceptions of park land that really. Reflect how life has changed in 21st century and how its different from the 20th century. I think, though, that its funny though, olmsteds basic point democratization, Common Ground shared space promoting. The idea of shared destiny is still very relevant and that even as we acknowledge this history of contested space. Even worse in the south where you actually physically had, you know, segregated parks, it wasnt just, you know, there was no contest. If you were black or brown, you even allowed into the some of these parks. I still that they are enormously to the city because of the reasons that lee mentioned and also because they promote this idea of of common humanity. One last question, and were going to to finish up. Can each of you give me an example of good architectural citizen ship in the city of chicago, all your food would be the first. All right. Well, guess thatll be me. Thank you. Yeah, i. That. Good citizens now is, one building that exemplify as good architectural citizenship would be. And i hate to bring up chimney gang again, but forgive me, the genie gang design regis tower, which was originally the vista tower. This is the curving tower along the river. So its a building for the 1 , right . Its a million bucks, too. I think thats the minimum to get to get in for a condo there. Sorry. Three. Well, i dont think. I think 3 million maybe the top, the upper units. But the point is that its expensive so but that building is a good citizen on many different levels. First of all, its a beautiful object. Its something inspired by brancusis endless column. Its it could have been an eyesore on the skyline and said its something that inspires us whether were north on Lakeshore Drive or from any number of perspectives. But its also a work of infrastructure theres a it creates a connection between the park at shore east which is a nice park is pretty private and secluded and creates a connection that park and the public of the riverfront. It takes east wacker drive, which is about as boring and corporate street as you could imagine, and it endows it with new as well as a beautiful new entrance that ultimately should have a restaurant and other things in it. So that building is not simply object stuck in the city that we all look at and admire from afar. But at ground level it engages the street plan and the context, it also is designed with birds in mind being part of a you know, thats being a good citizen. Youre gini was aware of the migration patterns of birds so the the curve curves and the colors the changing colors, the glass are meant to prevent the kind of bird strikes that occurred when the apple store opened. And theres also, of course, the the the changing shades and that building are meant to enable it to less energy. So its also a good citizen in terms of Climate Change. So that building is good citizen in many different ways from, you know, the faraway view from the close up view from, the long term impact of, you know, Climate Change to its influence on the ground plan. Thats good citizenship. Its its much more complicated now than just the postmodern of contextual architecture that responds to its visual context. Okay. The fool has spoken right now speak. Well, lets see if i can give you two really quick. Actually, one is by genie gang as well. Its the never say it the levy oreo youth center is a Daycare Center in. Auburn gresham community. If you read my book its in the its in there its a76 in partner l and so this is a Daycare Center and usually centers in poor neighborhoods are its like a brick, a window and a door right. Because, you know, people dont care about the design. The people who design dont care about the design the budgets are low. All these things that that make these things, you know, not a place that really want to turn your kids over to right this building and a part of s. O. S. Childrens village, this kind of Foster Village that thats thats around it. This is the last piece to it. You know, theres color theres light. I wish i could show you a photograph of it, you know, and she used it. Her juice, her clout to get donated labor. You go inside this place, its color there wide steps for the kids to play on i mean its just a welcoming place that you want to put your kids in someone has that they care about the kids in this and that they want designed to be reflect that it doesnt get talked about as much as some of the buildings but its worth a drive to see and the people who who run it theyre great about living in so that was one the other was im getting older cant remember the other oh the other 160 13 63 in Cottage Grove actually designed gensler which could be a really corporate firm, but its a mixed use artist housing theres retail on the first and its on the first floor. Theres dalys restaurants restaurant that goes back to the worlds its, you know, going through worlds fair. And its been, you know still been in business since then. Its there right here on the northeast of 63rd in Cottage Grove. Its colorful building. We can debate the architecture of it, but what it does is it brings in is by the by the el station. It brings life a corner that, you know they needed it. And as a result, its to affect the design of other things that are beginning to into the corner as well. So even got the city waiting to fix up the station thats there. So its a Good Neighbor because you know, its not cheap artist housing and cheap housing is sort of plunked in this corner, just like the housing that was already there that it replaced. But Something Different something fresh. And thats the kind thing i think more neighborhoods need. Well, we want to thank you, too can we give a round of applause . These people. Get informed straight from the sources on cspan, unfiltered, unbias, word for word from the faces capitol to wherever you are because the opinion that matters the most is your own. This is what democracy looks like. Cspan, powered by cable. University of baltimore law professor hatcher argues that the u. S. Justice system, benefits taken by the agency. When i encountered and became his attorney, he told me about he always wanted to be an auto mechanic and loved cars. The Foster Agency wouldnt help him when he was in the system helped him get his own drivers license. I found out with john while he was in the system, mothers died, the sole reason to protect interests. Applied for benefits, never told john, never told that they were planning to become representative to gain control of those funds and took every penny of those benefits from him. The stats of former foster are just lined up against them, right, like, again, like for those who are able to to somewhat well after leaving the system, im amazed. Most arent, right, and so he had this potential to have this monetary resource. It wasnt just the money, right, they took this connection from him, right, he had this money that was left from a deceased parent. He could are used the money and the connection to help himself. I dont know how you put a number to that. The state of maryland, they had a contract with the company and i found one of the contract documents, refers to foster youth as revenuegenerated mechanism. Watch this program on booktv. Org. Just search tan isle hatcher or injustice. Next is book tvs indepth program with bestselling author sc gwynne, empire, most recently