Transcripts For CSPAN2 James 20240703

The Senate Tavern and house. If you judge by fords theater in washington, d. C. , its about 14 miles southeast of there. What happened at about midnight when the calendar turned from april 42, 52, 1865, here in this tavern, John Wilkes Booth had been on the run. He shot Abraham Lincoln about ten, 15 or 10 20 p. M. , and he met up with one of his conspirators, david harold, across the 11th street bridge. And they met up at a high point and they rode straight here. This was their intended because this was a house of conspiracy. It was owned by mary surratt. She live here. It was a country tavern that a man rented it and ran it for her. And then she was living in her house in washington, d. C. , her boarding house. So booth and david harold arrived here and they pounded on the door. The innkeeper, john lloyd, was asleep and they pounded on the door and again and in then they let booth and david harold. Then they came in the side entrance, not through the front door. And then booth said, for gods sake, lloyd, hurry up and get those guns in this house. Booth had stored a spencer, a seven shot repeating weapon, and they picked that up. They would have taken both of them. But booth had been injured. He broke a bone in his leg, jumping to the stage at fords theater. So they asked lloyd to get the guns. And they almost certainly took some gulps of whiskey and possibly a length of rope. And then they went on their way. And then booth said to lloyd, would you like some news . And he said, well, it doesnt matter to me. Im either way about it. And booth said, i think weve killed the president now, booth was an actor. He couldnt resist talking about it. You know, youre going to be hunted, man youre escaping. Are you going to tell the innkeeper who you dont know that you might have killed the president , then he couldnt keep his mouth shut. The hangman him had to boast about this. And so then they started briefly and then made their escape. And their next destination was dr. Mudds house a scene events that you write about in the book manhunt the 12 day chase for, lincolns killer and it happened 159 years ago. Your book came out about 20 years ago, and its being turned into an apple tv plus series, the seven part series. Yeah. How faithful is the Television Version of these events to what you wrote about 400 pages. About 40 pages of notes. How did you make that happen . Well, first of all, we made a miniseries. We initially plan was to do it as a two hour motion picture. But soon we realized and everyone involved realized the story is too big, too broad, too intense, too frightening too exciting to tell in a two hour film. So i think it works much better as a seven hour series. So thats the first decision that had to be made in movie . No. And then the way i judge television is im not a purist. Im not im not the author who runs off and tries, oh, you ruined my book. Its not exactly the same. No televised dramatization can include everything. Does it does the show include every word in my . Of course not. Thats a thats a ridiculous and impossible standard. The way i judge anything on television is that one is a true to the spirit of the times. Do i feel like ive been transported to civil war america . And the night of the lincoln assassins action . Absolutely. Yes, the series does a great job with that. Then i ask myself, are the portrayals faithful to the real characters . Hamish linklater is an amazing Abraham Lincoln. Ive known a few lincolns, ive known gregory peck, ive known sam waterston. I met hal holbrook. They were in their own ways, different lincolns. But hamish is i remember when i was on set in savannah when we were filming some scenes and hamish and i had dinner for the first time and he said, im very nervous to meet you. I said, ive watched you perform all day to day. You are abraham and hes Abraham Lincoln in the series, tobias is a fabulous secretary of war. Sam, a very important thing is to show the relationship and friendship between lincoln and stanton and hamish and tobias captured this perfectly. Tobias menzies. Tobias menzies, yes. And so i felt i was watching the real Abraham Lincoln, the real secretary of war, stanton you know, can in any tv series have every fact in my book . Of course not. But are the characters real . Yes. Did it convince me . Yes. So im very happy with it. A series that viewers can watch on apple tv. Plus, lets go back to the scene of the crime, though, as it were, to fords theater. How does John Wilkes Booth get within derringer distance of Abraham Lincoln and how does he do the deed in front of a thousand people in the theater and make it out of the theater to get here to the strat tavern . Well, booth plot was ingenious. He knew fords theater like the back of his hand, so he knew to enter through the back door to the stage entrance. He knew there was a trapdoor that led beneath the stage so he could cross the width of the theater without being seen. Then he emerged to the exit of that trapdoor, walked down an air passageway, came out on the 10th street, the front of fords theater. Anyone who seen who saw him out there would not think that booth came to the back of the theater. He left his horse behind a stable hand, holding the horse for him for his escape. He had planned that he would not try to run down the stairs and escape with lincolns box. He knew people would catch him. There were more than a thousand people in the theater. His ingenious this was to think i have to jump from a box down to the stage. He was a he was an athletic actor. He was really a great sword fighter, almost a gymnast. He knew he could do it from the top of the balustrade to the foot. The stage of fords theater was 11 feet, six inches. Who could make that . So his plan was to enter the box. And by the way, lincoln was not properly guarded during the civil war. Lincoln ignored his personal security. There was no one, but it was a wartime presence. The wartime president , multiple Death Threats against the president. People sent lincoln more than 100 letters threatening to kill him. People tried to send poison to him. He didnt take enough proper security. Lincoln thought, well, if someone wants to kill me, how can i stop them . Very much like john kennedy. And so booth came to the theater. No one stopped him. The theater was not guarded. Anyone could walk in ticket holders. So booth arrived during the play. He came to the second floor and then he looked across the theater. He wanted to know, was general grant there . Because grant advertised as coming in the newspapers and grant would bring guards. His official military family. It might make it tougher for booth. Booth looks across the stage. Theres no evidence of grant, is there . And his guards are there. And so he crosses the roof of the theater. He walks down to the entrance to lincolns box. Hes prepared early in the day by carving a little niche in the plaster wall. So he knows he can take a piece of wood and jam it in place and once he enters lincolns vestibule, no one can walk through the door behind him. So booth does those things. Then he opens a second door. Now hes directly outside where lincoln is sitting in a rocking chair. And there was a peephole in that door. And booth looks through it and he sees that lincoln is sitting right there. Booth knows the play. Our american cousin. So he times it. He wants to enter the box and shoot lincoln with a single shot pistol. Theres no chance to reload. He has no other weapons. Hes got to do it in one shot. And he listens to the play and he realizes theres a certain moment when only one actor will be on stage, not the whole cast. No one can stop him on the stage. And so booth waits for this corny line. You sat dodging old man trap, which is funny at the time today. The play is awful. No one wants to see the play today. I dont recommend it to the audience. Burst into laughter at that moment. Booth opens the door. Hes right behind Abraham Lincoln. N sees something in the audience. Lincoln leans forward to see whats going on. So lincoln doubt is presenting the rear left of his head to the sightline of John Wilkes Booth. Booth has to do nothing but take the opportunity out of his pocket. Aim it forward. He can almost lincolns head with a pistol and he fires that one shot and lincoln slumps down. He doesnt know what hit him. Lincoln doesnt even hear the shot. Hes unconscious immediately because the bullet enters behind his lift, air goes diagonally through his brain and comes to rest behind his right eye. And then major rathbone, one of lincolns theater guests, leaps up. He realizes something is wrong. Booth shouts, freedom, freedom to the south. And then booth withdraws a dagger and stabs rather deeply through his arm. Rathbone is bleeding. Booth then goes to the balustrade. He slides over and he jumps down. Now, normally id make that shot with no problem, but his spirit catches on either flag or on a portrait of George Washington hanging from the front of the box and booth lands unevenly on the stage. The spear hits the stage booth hits the stage, and he breaks a bone in one of his legs and he howls of the center of the stage. The adrenaline is running, so heavily through his body, he might not even feel the pain, but this is he knows this is his last performance on the american stage. Hes got to be remembered for this. This is his last audience. So booth stops at center stage, pauses, brandishes the dagger, raises it into the air, and yells six separate taranis, which is the state motto of virginia. Thats always the tyrants. The audience doesnt realize whats happening. A man they hear a shot. They see smoke in lincolns box. A man hits the stage. People recognize that its John Wilkes Booth. He didnt shave his mustache. He didnt wear a face mask or kerchief. He wants to say to the audience, it is i, John Wilkes Booth, who has slain the tyrant. And then he says something that most folks dont record as hes running off to the stage to head to behind the scenes. A man and his girlfriend hear him say, exulting to himself, i have done it. And then went out the back door and jumps on this horse. And his first stop after getting out of washington, d. C. , is here. Its here at this tavern. Yes. Who is mary surratt and john surratt . Well, mary sarah was a 43 year old woman, catholic widow, who had a son, john junior. Her husband earlier. Johns, who had senior, had died previously, lee johnson junior is a confederate operative, an agent whos part of the confederacys web of Secrets Service operatives, and her daughter anna, and their two members throughout was she was a southerner, a loyalist, a friend of John Wilkes Booth, and she was not pro lincoln prounion, thats for sure. Her son, john, was involved in the earlier plot, which is partly planned in this house to kidnap Abraham Lincoln after his second inauguration and take him hostage for the confederacy, either as a pawn for negotiation to change the outcome of the war. We dont know exactly what the plot was and what they plan to do once they got lincoln. But the plan was to seize lincoln and take him away and that didnt happen because the very night they gathered on the road to capture lincoln, lincoln attended an event outside, the National Hotel John Wilkes Booth own hotel. So lincoln was speaking to soldiers from boots hotel while they were waiting on the road to capture her when he was going to a remote performance of a military play at campbell hospital and that they feared that their plot had been discovered. So they rushed back to Mary Surratt House tavern in washington, d. C. Her boardinghouse, and they threw their weapons on the bed and they were disconsolate. I thought it was all over. But john surratt, on the night of the assassination was not here or in washington. He was in canada. He was in new york and then canada on a mission to free confederate prisoners from elmira prison in new york. So john surratt was not present at all, but he was a confederate operative, a loyalist, and a friend of John Wilkes Booth. And he was part of black booths original plan to kidnap the president. So John Wilkes Booth and his coconspirator, david herold, make it here. You mentioned John Wilkes Booth injuring himself in that dive out of the the box to the stage. Theyre going to a dr. Samuel mudds house next. How far away is samuel mudds house from where were sitting right now . Several hours, right. I think they got to doctor mans house about 330 or 4 00 in the morning and booth never entered this house that night. Hed been here before, but hed never enter. He never off his horse. The pain was throbbing now. So david herold is the one who came in and got the spencer carving and got the whiskey, got other materials, but he does enter a doctor mudds house and the apple tv series has a vivid scene where wilkes booth is there with dr. I want to show that scene to our viewers. Its just about 22 seconds or so. I can splint that. But if you dont stay off of it, you might end up on a surgeons table. Stay off for the fractured tibia requires about two months lying around, not sure you got that. Youre only doctor pepper, right in front page news. I always read my reviews. I always read my reviews. What does that line tell us about the man that John Wilkes Booth was . Booth was obsessed with . Reading newspaper accounts of his crime during the entire chase, he coveted the newspapers, and so he had to know how his last act was revealed, how his performance was viewed. He was disappointed because when booth got a lot of the newspapers, he was further along on the run and a confederate operative, thomas jones, who helped shield him in a plane ticket for us. And he brought booth several newspapers. The booth was crushed to see that his performance was was widely doomed. He couldnt believe what bad reviews got in to his escape. He kept a little notebook where he wrote about what was like to be a man, 100 men on the run. And he said, well, ive ive slain the caesar sign a tyrant. How can it be that im now and hunted and despised . Booth was crushed to read reviews. Why was dr. The one they went to . Was he in on the plot . Yes and no. Dr. Mudd was a confederate sympathizer, a slave owner, and i believe was certainly of boots original plot to kidnap Abraham Lincoln. Its a myth that booth did not know. And mudd was the innocent country physician obeying his hippocratic oath to help a wounded man. No, they knew each other. Booth had spent the night at my house. They are going shopping for horses together. That booth would use in the kidnaping plot. They had gone to church together. And so mudd not innocent. He was part of the plot to kidnap Abraham Lincoln. He was not expecting booth that night. Booth mudd didnt know that booth was going to shoot nick lincoln that night. But because of the wound, booth diverted his path and headed to dr. Mudds house. He knew that leg needed medical treatment, so thats why he went to doctor. How badly injured was he. Do you believe that John Wilkes Booth could have gotten away if he didnt have the injury . Well, he certainly could have gotten farther if he didnt injure that leg, which was very painful. Booth could have made it further. There were parts of the confederacy that had never seen a Union Soldier throughout the civil war that booth had been able to reach those people. They would have concealed him, hidden and escaped much further. I dont know. Where were those people were they richmond . Were they farther south than richmond, that point . They were farther south. Booth needed to head south as he could, and perhaps hoped to board a steamship and escape to england. Perhaps he hoped to get farther south and cross the Mississippi River and get into the deeper confederacy were considered. Armies were still in field. Perhaps he hoped to get to and rejoin kirby smiths forces. We dont know what booths plot was, but we know had a network of people to go to and see this journey south. And if he had broken that bone in his leg, i think he would have made it much farther least, and it wouldve taken longer to capture him. Theres plenty of historical of president s, cspan done several of them, asking historians to rank president s if there were a ranking of secretaries of war for this country where. Do you think Edwin Mcmasters Stanton would rank would rank in that list at the top of the list . Edwin stanton is one of the Great American heroes. One thing i love about the tv show is the real stanton is portrayed. Edwin stanton not only investigated the lincoln murder, he questioned witnesses he deployed detectives to the field. He had other things to do. Also, he had to help win the civil war. The war was not over. Confederate armies were still in the field. Yes, robert kelly had surrendered at appomattox. Joe johnston still had his army north carolina. Kirby smith had his army in texas. So the war was by no means over or one. And then stanton had to organize the wonderful and majestic funeral procession for Abraham Lincoln that, took him through all the major cities of the north and the journey back to springfield. So stanton had to hunt the lincoln assassins, get John Wilkes Booth, find the conspirators, fight and win the civil war, and organize the National Tribute to Abraham Lincoln. So stanton is a Great American hero, so overlooked. One of the best things about the show is stan is finally given his due in American History. Its Emmy Award Winning actor tobias menzies, as you said, who portrays Edwin Stanton. Yeah. Heres a little bit of how he portrays stanton, but if youre a war secretary, how come you dont assign a task like this to a clerk . Youve got a little brother and we let him solve your problems. My lady says i never met a challenge. I could delegate. Why was it up to Edwin Stanton . Do all these things . Lead the search as hes trying to win the war and organize the funeral procession. Why was it the secretary of wars job . Well, the secretary of war had great power. Lincoln called him his master, his god of war. After Abraham Lincoln, stanton was the most powerful in america. The presidency was not that important in office. And Andrew Johnson was, not that important to Vice President lincoln, turned to stanton and relied on him to win that war, to supply the union army to discipline the army, to strategize. So stanton was really lincolns right hand partner in fighting and winning the civil war . Yes. Lincoln had grant sherman and shared it. They were his leaders in the field. Stanton was here in washington. I compare stanton to, George Marshall during world war two, that great military genius was so important he couldnt be sent to the field he couldnt be sent to europe to be to defeat the nazis. I would say Edwin Stanton was the war equivalent of George Marshall for folks who may focus just on fords theater and booth and lincoln, they may not know why Abraham Lincoln didnt have his secretary of state with him that night. Well, secretary of state William Seward was not a military strategist. He didnt really help organize the victory in the civil war. And furthermore, he was unavailable. He was bedridden. He had had a terrible carriage accident in washington several days earlier, and he was in great pain his jaw was injured. He was in a neck brace. So he was immobilized. And so was seward. Really couldnt anything to help track down the assassins or organize the hunt for the conspirators or in the civil war and certainly was a target of the assassination attempts itself. Yes in fact as booth was attacking lincoln, he had deputized one of his conspirators, lewis powell, a six foot tall, muscled confederate soldi captured at gettysburg and then released. Lewis powell was taken by david, kied to sewards house. He got into the house he climbed up the steps and he almost stabbed sewer to death in his own bed. He gave a fractured skull to one of sewards sons. He stepped his to have the War Department messenger. He with mayhem in that house. And so thats seward was not involved at all either in winning the war or in organizing the hunt for the conspirators. He barely escaped death night Vice President Andrew Johnson, you mentioned him as hes a character thats not often portrayed on film that you see. I want to show viewers how hes portrayed in this series on apple tv. Plus, wheres moose. We think he went south. He went south, led the local authorities. Your hunt on the authorities in the south, the confederates. Well, at least you look the part i apprenticed as a tailor. Get someone to clean up my room for the ceremony. You know, you could be the first man to call me mr. President. And touch your bible first. Any. In the series. What did you think was important to show the audience when portraying Andrew Johnson . A few things. One, to show that initially johnson was not an important figure. The lincoln assassination. Lincoln didnt know him well at all. There were rumors that he had been drunk during lincolns inauguration. Vice president s generally were considered secondary figures. And so that thats the preamble to who . Andrew was, the actor who plays him was incredible. The first time i laid eyes on him, i thought, did they hire a lookalike thats how Andrew Johnson was. But so he was not a major figure. He absented himself if he came to lincolns to the deathbed vigil, the peterson house, he didnt stay long were not sure if he went or not. He was not visible during manhunt. It was it was really stanton and not johnson who organized the manhunt for booth and fought the end of the civil war. The Vice President was not that much an important figure and there was conflict him and lincoln. And between stanton and so thats who Andrew Johnson was. Lets return to the manhunt itself. We left off as John Wilkes Booth at dr. Mudds house, getting his leg attended to. How long did he stay and where did he go from there . Well, he stayed essentially a day a half, depending how you. Look at the calendar, maybe 20 hours. Its over two days. And then he bud and bud knew exactly who he was. Bud knew what he had done. And mudd knew, he had to protect booth and protect himself. So later, when soldiers came to search for this man, booth went that way and bud sent the soldiers that way in the opposite direction. And then when photographs were shown to mudd of booth, he claimed he didnt recognize him. That would be as though Robert Redford or brad pitt or taylor swift come to your house, spend a night, go shopping for cars with, go to church with you, and then you say, i dont know who that is when you see the photograph, it was ridiculous. Course he knew who booth was from the booth showed up at the door. And so John Wilkes Booth, even a tattoo . Yes. Give him away. Yes. So they knew each other . Without a doubt. Matt is lucky he wasnt executed. The military tribunal that tried conspirators, several of them, including mary surratt, decided that it would take a vote of 6 to 9 to hang any of them. The vote to hang mudd was to four. So by one vote he escaped death anyway, after he left, mudd, booth went on a series of journeys to confederate operatives and people awaiting. Him and he was following a semi known route because people were telling him the way to go. And so he went from place to place. He crossed the Potomac River, what we call today, the anacostia river. Within minutes of the assassination itself, to to come in to maryland, how many days did he recross the potomac to get back into virginia how long did that take . Well, what happened was this booth across the potomac in a rowboat, the river was wide and dark. And before that, thomas jones, the confederate operative who specialized in taking confederate spies across the potomac had concealed him in a pine for several days. Jones theory was let the man hunters pass through this area and go on to other places. And then when that happens, ill take you down to the river and you can. And so booth spent several days with david herold hiding in the pine thicket. Jones would bring him food, bring him newspapers, and conceal from his own servants that he was bringing food to a man who needed food. Food, not only for himself, but for his horses to. So booth had to spend several days in the pine thicket before he crossed the potomac. And then jones came to him one day and said, now is the time we go. And jones had checked out local to see what the union troops were up to, and he drank with some of them and one of them said, i will pay a 100,000 reward to capture booth. And jones said, well, that should do it. If money would work because jones soon loyalty to booth. And he took booth and he drove down to the river, said, farewell, my friend. And jones never betrayed John Wilkes Booth. He was captured. He was quick. He was questioned, but he never betrayed booth and herold. This might be a good time. Explain to david herold was and why he was with John Wilkes Booth on that flight and on those 12 days. Yes. David hill was a young man in his early who lived in washington, d. C. He worked at a pharmacy at the navy yard, and he fell into John Wilkes Booth orbit through, by chance, booths conspirators did not act out of hatred for. Abraham lincoln, they were not highly political. They acted out of their love and admiration for John Wilkes Booth. They were fans of booth. Booth was not a snob. He was a regular man who treated carmen when come and man. Well, he bought them drinks, bought an oysters, an oyster, houses, took them to plays. And so they were loyal to booth. They didnt hate lincoln. They loved booth. They were fans there. They were booth most loyal and ardent and trustworthy fans. The John Wilkes Booth hate lincoln. And if so, why he hated lincoln. He viewed lincoln as a usurping booth, was a racist, proslavery man who hated lincoln, especially after lincoln, when in 1864 he called a false president , a pretender. He hated booth for crushing the south for causing so much loss and death in the south booth was a true lincoln hater. Booth had other motives. We wanted to punish lincoln as the great tyrant, but booth wanted for the time he was a teenage boy, the son of a great actor, the brother of other great actors. Booth had told one of his sisters fame, i must have fame. And booth also to change the outcome of the civil war. So his motives were lincoln hatred, eternal fame and possibly changing the outcome of history. Did he have any help from higher up in the confederacy in the plot . Not just assassinate lincoln, but that earlier plot to kidnap lincoln . Theres no hard proof of that. A lot of the records of the confederates service have been lost. The confederacy had an outpost in canada and john surratt was one of the people who ran the distance between two booth also had Bank Accounts in canada. Booth patterns touched upon across the pattern of the Confederate Secret Service, but no document has ever been found where confederates ordered the lincoln. Lincoln assassination. In fact, after the assassination of about 20 confederate generals signed a document that said, we have nothing to do with this. We dont we dont oppose the lincoln so much that we would order his death. In fact, a number of the confederate leaders thought it was cowardly to approach man from behind while he was sitting in the theater beside his wife and to murder him from behind with a shot in the head. It was considered by many military people to be ungentlemanly and even cowardly. So absent further evidence, i would say i doubt that anyone in the confederacy ordered the assassination of abraham. I want to show one more scene from the appletv plus series on manhunt showing this confusion in d. C. Question is about a larger conspiracy. This is about a minute and a half. Booth is being protected by the Confederate Secret Service, going booth being shielded by the confederacy. Who did they have a hand in planning. Whos his contact . Booth is a stuntman. Who produced his stunt. Was it the confederacy . Was it wall street or hear me out . Was it johnson, baker, who benefited the most . Was johnson. Youre saying that johnson set up booth kill abe and staged a failed assassination on himself. You sound like mary lincoln. Dont discount johnson. Everybodys thinking it was their suspicion on new president johnson was everybody thinking it . There was much suspicion. First of all, there was an assumption that the confederacy had ordered the assassin of lincoln and the other high officials, the us government. Look, lincoln had been shot and killed at fords theater. Secretary of state seward rose and stabbed to death in his own bed. His household was almost wiped out by this maniac attacking them. It was a reasonable belief that this was a last minute attempt by the confederacy to overturn the verdict of the battlefield in the civil war. So stanton and other high officials are right to believe this was a confederate plot. How could it not be that the leader of the union army, the commander in chief, Abraham Lincoln, is shot . The climax of the civil war and then the secretary of state is almost murdered. They discovered there was a plot to assassinate Andrew Johnson. George. Thatsright. Was supposed to shoot himself to death in his hotel room, and he was captured. So was a reasonable belief that there was a larger conspiracy that the confederacy was involved, that the Confederate Secret Service might have been involved and there would be more assassinations and more killings. So it was not paranoid to think that the confederacy and others were involved as that scene sort of gives a nod to did Edwin Stanton tamp down on those conspiracy theories . Did did he help keep this from becoming a larger witch hunt . Well, not really. He entertained these theories. Is he should have done it. Anything was possible. Mary lincoln herself suspected Andrew Johnson, of foul play. And so stanton organized the military trial of the conspirators. And there were many witnesses who were brought forward who implicated the confederacy and others. But they turned out to be fraudulent are not real. But stanton was correct to try to every aspect of this murder. Who was baker in that scene that we just showed . Baker was one of two men named baker luther baron baker and lafayette baker. Baker was a bit of a neer do well spy, and he and his cousin wanted very much to participate in getting word reward money. Secretary of state. Secretary of war. Stanton had ordered and offered a 100,000 reward for the capture of John Wilkes Booth, which was a fortune that a private the union army made less than 20 a month. The of the president of the United States was 5,000 a year, 100,000 was a kings ransom. And in fact, about 35 or 40 people applied for a cut of that ransom. And both bakers got a share of that. So there was also a selfish motive in being the man who was funding John Wilkes Booth people lusted for a share. That reward. So thats very accurate that people wanted that money badly. Back to the chase itself from fords theatre across the bridge of the Potomac River here to the surratt tavern, the mud pine thickets in maryland across the Potomac River. How does it all come to an end . It all comes to an end when booth has made it less than 100 miles away on horseback and ferryboat, the union sends the 60 cavalry and a paddleboat because they hear reports that men have been seen in the vicinity so they get to virginia in a few days and it took both almost 12 days to get where he got. And so theyre closing in the whereabouts of booth and then they encounter some confederate soldiers returning home who admit that they saw a man who could have John Wilkes Booth. They take one man capture and they go to Bowling Green where one of the other men who saw booth is, and leaves him from bed. And they say, we know that youve seen booth, were going to kill you. Where is he . And then he says, well, you just rode past him. Hes sitting at the farm where i left him. Hes there right now as far as i know. So the cavalry turns around, mounts up and rushes to the gear. Booth has spent a couple of days with the guards. He lies to them. He claims hes a confederate soldier going home after the war. In fact, night, first night he has dinner with the garret family. With their family. And one of the girls speculates on the motives booth the assassin. They dont really as hes sitting there talking to them and he says, well, why do you think he did it, miss . And she says, i think did it for money. And booth says, oh, really, miss . I think he did it for fame. And so shes sitting there discussing booth is performing, hes discussing his own act. Assassinated lincoln talking to this family that doesnt know hes the one. And so then the second night, they get suspicious of booth. They think he and david herold might be trying to steal their horses. So they make him sleep in a tobacco drying barn which has vertical open slats, where you can peer through these slats and see and in the barn. And then that night the cavalry retires, the cavalry arrives, they roust old man garrett and his sons from their house and say, know hes here, where is he . And threatened to hang old man here if they threatened to punish the boys. And then they take him to the tobacco barn and because they suspect booth is going to steal horses. Theyve locked him in. So booth and herold are trapped in that barn. They cant get out. So the soldiers and officers surround the barn and they say, we know, we know youre there. They dont call it his name. We know you there. Come out and surrender. And booth says, well, you might be friends who are you . And they say, we know its you. And so booth, for the next 2 hours, engages seven shakespearean dialog. Ill fight you by one. Oh, sir, i see youre. Holding that candle. I could have shot you several times, but it goes down the candle immediately. Does he know its over at this point . That theres no way out . He knows its. Booth also knows he doesnt. To be taken back to washington and put on trial and hanged, he saw john brown hanged. He met john brown after john browns right. And so he doesnt want the indignity of being taken out and bound and have a rope put around his neck and hanged at that point, booth knows hes not going to get away. David begs to surrender. They let him come out of the barn. He surrenders and booth, theres a man in here who wants to give up what we have and bring all the guns out. And booth says, oh, those guns are mine. I need them. So david herold was taken captive and booth is in there with the spencer carbine with two revolvers, simply carving he picked up from this tavern. Yes. So the booth has a seven shot carving and two revolvers with six shots. Its so can kill some of the soldiers when they come in. So they decide rather than rush the barn, which they could have done it easily captured him and probably taken him alive. They engage in a parlay, then they decide not going to come out. Then booth says, ill fight you one by one, ill have a duel. One more stain on the old banner. Its a performance and he knows that over the 25 men who are out there are going to write down everything says, write letters, read it in the diary. So this is his last performance. Its on the american stage and booth decides he wont be taken alive. But before he can act and on the other side, one soldier, sergeant boston corbett, sees booth. We saw it in the barn and sees booth raise the carving horizontally on his hip and he fires. Theres no war. There was really no order to shoot, not shoot. And his own he shoots booth hits him once the neck paralyzes him, booth falls to the ground. And then the soldiers and officers in. And one officer says he shot himself and says, no, someone shot of. Then they say, well, lets lets figure out what happened and drag him out of the barn before he dies in the barn because they set the burn on fire to drive him out. And then booth was dragged to the front porch of the garrett farmhouse. And then he says, me, kill me. And the officer said, we want to kill you. We want you to get well. We want to take you back to washington. And then booth says, tell mother i die for my country. And then booth says, my hands, my. And then they help him look at his hands. And booth looks at them, says, useless, useless and then he dies. This is sunrise on the garrett farm. We dont know what booth meant by that. Did he mean his act was useless or really mean his feeble hands now useless and he could hardly use them. Well never know. I doubt that booth would have said it was useless to set ss and Abraham Lincoln. I think booth would have said glad i killed the tyrant. Even as you retell this story, more time here. Theres so many characters in this story. So many actors as a part of this drama, how focused it is the apple tv series that you helped executive produce, how many characters did you have to cut . Did you have to combine some stories just to be able to tell this story in a seven part series . Well, the few characters had to be combined to represent the joint experiences of a number of characters. It would be impossible to show on any screen every single character in my book because so many people were involved. But they did a great job with the characters of doctor mudds farm, the slaves who were there. They did a great representation of as well. Swann, a black piscataway who helped booth along the way, and booth invaded the home of one person he begged for help from another. Theres a great scene where one of these men points a pistol booth and says, i know who you are, mr. Booth and booth summons is provided. So how are you going to help us or not . And it works. And, and so there are a lot of characters and theyre great. Its a full cast more than it could have in any motion picture. How often were you on set . How often were you stopping between takes to inform the and actresses about the true history that youre them to to portray . Well, no writer on set should be allowed to stop the action or tell people how to perform it. Their professional. They know what they were doing and then most of the actors would do many of any scene now and then i was asked for advice, which is different from telling people what to do. I recall two episodes that i really enjoyed. One was stanton and lincoln were meeting in a room and then mary lincoln was to come in, played by willie taylor. Shes a great mary lincoln. And then lilly wondered. Well, how does mary lincoln enter this room . And the director said, well, james, you tell us. Because he said, lilly, one of the experts is here. How have is mary lincoln in the room . I said, mary lincoln was an imperious woman. She she took no guff from anyone. She was willful. Mary lincoln would into that room unannounced and interrupt lincoln and stanton just start speaking as theyre discussing how to end the war and she wants robert to be exempt from military service. She doesnt want him to join the army. Oh, the sons of ours have died. Youve got to save them. And so lily walks into the room. Is mary lincoln and just interrupts her husband, the secretary of war, and makes her demands just as the real mary lincoln would have done. And theres another wonderful scene where hamish and tobias are discussing how the war should be ended. And theyre playing and theyre playing lincoln and sam, and theyre on costume. Were about to film the scene and i watch it. And tobias and haymitch play it at Different Levels of intensity and intellectual conversation of how should we end the war what should we do with the confederates . And then a more emotional conversation of their traitors . Stanton says they have to be punished. Theyre wolves. And so they were kind enough to ask opinion. And i said, well, everywhere youve played the scene, they probably do 20 different takes. Theyre all to me as authentic. But then i said, well, tell us. I said, its not my job to tell you. Im just the writer, youre the actors. And i said, no, tell us what you think. I said Abraham Lincoln was passionate and intense about how not to end the war. Lincoln did not want to have hangings. He didnt have executions. He wanted them to all just flee and escape. He lincoln didnt care if jefferson escapes to europe. Lincoln said, if we punish him all this war will last another hundred years. And i said, so i think lincoln would have played this scene with great intensity and passion. It would have been an intellectual conversation, he would have resisted stanton and said, we cant punish him. We have to. We are not the country and not kill them, not execute them. And we not the country. And so in the end, thats how the actors and the director decided to play that scene. So its very thrilling to me. Did you did you get consulted not just on how to play the scenes, but things like clothing and and what was the room . How much detail were you consulted on . Well, the sets were fantastic. The best set was a recreation of the entire War Department office and the team used a 60,000 square foot soundstage in savannah down to the telegraph keys to the telegraph wires to burn cigars in the ashtrays. Anyway, if lincoln or sam had walked into that room, they thought they would have thought they would be magically transported to the civil war. So early on, i asked for some thoughts on a costumes and appearance and all that. But. But the crew that designed the set, they were geniuses. Its so real. I, i, i had a small part in making some suggestion, but it was really the production crew and the set designers who did a brilliant job of recreating civil war. Washington did you get the sense that they had all read your book . Yeah. Think it might have been required for people to read the book to get a sense of the vibe and what it felt like and what it looked like. A seven part Series Available on apple tv plus for viewers who may want to watch that, come back to your comment about. Lincoln, after the civil war did not hangings right after the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, there were hangings and mary surratt, the owner of this tavern, was one of those in a room in this tavern, one of the front rooms, theres a portrait of mary surratt, and shes facing across the room from a picture of the moment that she was hanged, who else hung alongside mary surratt . Well, eight of booths alleged conspirators who were put on trial, lewis powell, who knew he was stabbed to death. The secretary of state. He, of course, would be convicted because he had participated in the plot to assassinate commander in chief of the armies of the United States in the prison, in that it states he was doomed. David herold was one of the ones who was tried. He led powell to sewards house to stab him to death, and then he was on the run with booth for 12 days. Guilty george axelrod, who was supposed murder Vice President johnson, he got drunk and got scared and ran. He pointed his pistol at a shop in georgetown. He threw his knife aside, guilty and hanged because he had no participation in any assassin asian activities he had for knowledge that booth and the others were going to attack that night. He didnt from the conspiracy. He didnt live the authorities. If he had talked, he could saved lincoln. He could have saved seward. So under the rules of conspiracy, murder, he was as guilty as someone who pulled the trigger. So he was also and mary surratt was executed. Im not sure that mary surratt knew in advance that lincoln would die that night. She did meet with booth in her house in washington, dc on the afternoon of the assassination. Booth gave her binoculars and said, will you bring these to your country for me . And she said, yes. And he said, ill tell the that parties will call for the guns tonight and testify. He indicates that mary syria told the innkeeper and she she got in the carriage, drove the binoculars down here, and she told the innkeeper, according to testimony, get the shooting items ready. Parties will call them tonight. Mary surratt one knew that her son was involved in booths plot to kidnap lincoln. She knew her son was a confederate operative, an agent. She knew louis powell. He visited the house. She knew david herold. He had been to the house. Powell masqueraded as the reverend wood. Dr. Wood when he went to the surratt boarding house. And so the plot was lodged very much in her house in Andrew Johnson. It might have been Andrew Johnson said she was the nest that hatched the egg of conspiracy and so what got her convicted was the fact that she the detectives who came to visit her house, one of louis had been there. He showed up two days shortly after this. It was a pickax over his shoulder that her house was under intense suspicion and detectives came more than once. He showed up with a pickax at 2 00 in the morning and the detectives were there and said on in, what are you doing here . He said, oh, mrs. Surratt hired me to dig a gutter. And they said at oclock in the morning and then they held up a lantern to his face and said, mrs. Right, you know this man and their eyes locked. And she said, i swear before god, i dont know this man. Ive never seen it before. And it was they could easily prove that hed been there, that she, that hed been to the house before, that she had met him before. And so she really dug her own grave. And also she lied to the detectives about what happened, her knowledge of things and i think she might have been spared if her son, john surratt, jr had not heard it in new york, then fled to canada. The lincoln assassination, and he never came back. And so in his absence she was blamed if john surratt junior had been captured in a timely manner. I think he have been executed and she would have been spared. But then he fled to a jesuit monastery and then he fled to europe. He fled to italy, he joined the popes army. The peoples he was captured later and ultimately released. But i think marys had died, one she knew lewis powell. Louis powell showed up at her front door shortly after the assassination. She lied about what she knew and her son john escaped. As we close in on our time together here at the surratt tavern, John Wilkes Booth was headed to dr. Mudds house after leaving here . Yes close out that part of the story of what ends up happening to dr. Mudd. Dr. Mudd first tells a cousin of his go tell the Union Soldiers that strangers who were here, they have been the men youre looking for. So the soldiers arrive, the cavalry patrol they showed. Dr. Mudd a photograph of John Wilkes Booth. I swear, i dont recognize them. I have poor eyesight and i dont have a good memory of faces either. I might meet you and i cant remember that i met you. I dont have a good memory for those things. They know hes. And then dr. Mudd, servants probably tipped off the soldiers. Somethings going on here. And then in dr. Second floor bedroom, they find a boot hidden under the bed. That boot is now displayed at fords theater. The museum there, its John Wilkes Booth booth riding boot. And they find it written in india, inc, in the tap of the booth. J. Wilkes booth. So they know was in his house. They knew thats the boots they knew doctor gave him the splint and gave him the crutch. And so that was evidence. And they found dr. Mudd very deceitful deceitful. They almost hung him. The vote was 5 to 4 to execute him. And dr. Mudd was spared by one vote. He survived and then he goes back to his house in maryland. Sam ned spangler, one of the conspirators who wasnt convicted, he was a stagehand at fords theater. He was involved in the plot and he was sentenced to six years in prison. But then he was pardoned. So mudd goes back, dies in 1883 and lives on to tell the tale. Some evidence suggests that after the assassination, mudd confides to his lawyer, i knew about it all along. And also this. There were others lewis powell tells some of his jailers, and they admire, they value his bravery. He says you havent got the half of us. And that raises that serious question. Who else was involved in the plot to kidnap and later assassinate lincoln . There were probably more people than we know about. When you say the name John Wilkes Booth, it will forever be associated with Abraham Lincoln. His act that night on april 14th, 1865. Yes. Do you think that John Wilkes Booth, new that he would be forever linked to Abraham Lincoln, to the man that he hated so much when he carried this out, he to have known he was so involved in the world of fame, celebrity actors, history, the world of shakespeare, the plays. Booth was a great shakespearean actor, and so he had to have he would go down in history. He got what he wanted. He wanted eternal. And he has it to this day, in fact, until recently, when you go down the streets of washington, d. C. , in front of fords theater, there used to be displayed in front of fords banners portraying. John wilkes booth. Weve that now because you dont go to dallas and look for lee oswald posters or memphis for james earl gray posters. Booth when did we stop doing that . Partly when i suggested that it . Fords theatre, we stopped selling toy derringer pistols to children replica caboose, murder weapon and so that to stop booth has going down as it is an antihero a woman once approached me at one of my book signings for me i had and said im mad at you. I looked at her hands because when louis powell was attacking seward, he said, im mad. And then i said, why are you mad at me. She said, you made me love John Wilkes Booth. I said, oh, no, i just told you the facts. You chose to love booth. She said, i wish i was with booth in his hotel the morning of the assassin. I would have stopped him. I said no, hero seduced you and would have become part of his plot. Thats the allure of the booth. The romantic antihero. We forget donald who was a racist. He was a murderer, and he killed one of the greatest americans who had ever lived. So theres this cult was begun by booths sister after war. She wrote a memoir that suppressed for decades. And she said, even now, strangers go to his grave, her brothers grave, and high with flowers. And she thought that lincoln and booth had, this strange destiny, both gave all had to their best in life for the cause they believed in booth was not a hero. Booth is not an antihero. Hes not a charming, romantic figure. Hes a dastardly evil person who murdered our greatest president and also one of the greatest americans who had ever lived. So i never wanted my book to be seen as a celebration booth. It isnt. My book is really a tribute to Abraham Lincoln, told to the story of the murder, the assassination and of the civil war. It was always important to me that readers would lionize booth or think there was something admirable about him because there isnt. Do you think the apple tv plus series accomplishes that same mission . Yes. Yes. Booth is, not a hero in the series . No, thats the one thing i would have objected to if booth was portrayed as a highly sympathetic antihero that have been wrong. And we dont do that. The seven part Series Available on apple tv, plus the book is manhunt the 12 day chase for lincolns killer James Swanson is the author. James swanson, thanks for joining us. An American History pleasure. Thank you