Democracy. Arizona independent senator Kyrsten Sinema discusses her decision in leaving the Democratic Party and negotiations during Mccain Institute forum in arizona. This is about 45 minutes. Thank you all so much for joining us today and thank you senator sinema. We have a lot to talk about. We will try tooi get through as much as possible. We obviously are at the Mccain Institute forum named for the late senator M John Mccain his last act in the public arena, gops repeal bill, it crossed party lines and cemented his reputation as a maverick. Here we are just a few 7 years later youve notably said that you are leaving the senate because americans dont want the collaborative approach that youve said youve modeled in part after him by crossing party lines. Why do you think that that devalued in been such a short amount of time . Well, you know this, ive been kind of talking about this for 20 years. The privilege ive had to serve arizona from my time in the state house and the state senate, my former colleagues right here to later serving the u. S. House and u. S. Senate and my colleagues were here and literally for the last 20 years ive been telling anyone that would listen why it was so important to ignore partisan boundaries and just seek solutions, common senseen solutions that serve the interest of the people that we serve in arizona and across the country. But it has become increasingly clear, i think, everyone in the room would surely agree that that style has become more out of favor. I wouldnt say it was in favor specifically butny its become more out of savor and less acceptable to work in a way that is not concerned about the next election of who is going to win over the guy but more concerned about actually involving a problem that the American People face. I think there are a lot of reasons for it. Certainly the influence of money and media in politics has a lot to do with it. But ultimately i think the responsibility lies with all of us as americans. It is our choice who we, it is our choice who we nominate and its our choice who we support in electoral politics. And when we is got into a place where its unusual to support someone with whom you dont agree a hundred percent, youre in a tough spot because what that means those who want to survive in the system, who want to continue to be elected and continue serving has to agree with the base 100 . Youve heard me say this before, notably i said this during Senate Campaign just six years ago. Ive always said if you ever need someone with whom you agree 100 either they are a liar or youre not thinking for yourself. Very dangers for american democracy. And so, i guess, my challenge, my opening challenge, im not sure if the challenge is in the room but perhaps our friends, our neighbors and league who is may not share the same commitment that you all in this room share to diversity of ideas and compromise, the challenge that i would offer is to support people with who you agree with about 60 of the time. That means he or she is thinking for themselves and they are doing something a little bit outside of what the party has told them to do. Theyre looking for Real Solutions and willing to compromise not on values but on specific tactics or strategies, item in order to get that solution. Thats become unpopular but i try to make it popular again. So what are the elements that you talk about its a party system. Mccain again challenged immigration, torture, he was ridiculed, and more broadly nationally. He was censored here by the state Republican Party. Come on. [laughter] he never left the gop, in fact, at times as a result of this, as he saw the fringes of his party become more extreme he engaged and recruited Committee People and officials to serve in key positions of the party, by contrast you quit the Democratic Party, you didnt really engage with the party at the Grassroots Level like he did. Some people wanted you to stay in the Democratic Party as perhaps the moderating force. To try to handle some of the extremism as you call it that we see in thehe left, why didnt yu do that . Its my assessment that both extremes inn our Political Party have become less tolerant, difference of opinion within their own tent. Not very big anymore, its pretty small and exclusive and unfortunately the smaller, the less likely it is that folks with independent thought or willingness to compromise and so for me, declare my independents was the right move. Some of the folks in this room who have known me for a very long time before i was a member of the Democratic Party i was an independent and, in fact, as i ran for office time and time and imtime again in arizona, regardless of the label at the end of my name was i always campaigned and governed as an independent. I was taught at a very young age to think to myself and the fearness of independent thought of using your own brain to ask questions and be thoughtful and come to a conclusion, that could fit in a Political Party but doesnt fit very well today and so it became hear that the party that i was affiliated with wasnt really interested in having my voice a part of the tent which is fine and so, you know treasuries race. For me it was a really important moment because it was an opportunity for me to remind not just myself but my state, my constituents in the country who i have always been, which is an independent voice for what i believe in. At what point did you becomehe pretty realistic about the Democratic Party . We know that you didnt really ever feel like a member and that that didnt define you, that label didnt define you but at what point were you just like, i cant to this anymore . Iis do have hope for both the democratic and Republican Party and for those who are in the audience i encourage them to do rehab. If you want to. You can believe whatever you want in my party, its great. Its been a growing concern of mine over the years. Particularly strong as i served inin the United States senate ad folks here no doubt familiar there was a time in the United States senate where my vote and my voice became very pivotal. Certainly because of the numbers, right, within the bodies but i would argue more so becausee i chose to use the position to advance the things i believed in. When you serve to a 5050 senate or lesser extent 5049 senate, every vote counts. Mitt was e a part of every singe one of these m efforts. The list goes on and on and on. There wereld people who would ce to say, why, why are you doing this, first, i can and this is the time. We can get so much done, we can get so much done. The second thing is we are all on a 50, each of us. I was willing to i was willing to take the arrows for being the one who said, i am not going to go along with the herd, i want to do this because it is the right thing for my state and my country and im going to do it even if folks are unhappy with it. We aren going to get to some of those things and we will get to the great senator from utah here in a minute. Come on up here. No, no . Lets talk about your personal experience, path in p politics. It does in so many ways as i was preparing for this interview reflects this parallel, the parallels of modern american politics. You realize that this isis just not working. Im going to adapt, you are negotiating with some of the toughest republican far right characters of the time, you are catapult intoed the u. S. House and then eventually it does not feel like a catapult. Ff it feel like a rock climb with no safety. Became a member of congress and then you became a member of the senate in a very historical election, you became the first woman to do so, first democrat in 30 years. It was a big deal for a state like arizona. Now voters here at home dont want that approach. That must be super hard to reconcile for someone like you. I mean, its disappointing. How are you working through. That . Well, the good news is i go very quickly. So, look, we are everyone in the room who is a parent knows when your child has a fever its very scary. Many things that you can do to help your child, mostly is to try to alleviate the pain and help them feel like its going to be okay and wait for the fever to break. And thats where we are. Have to wait for the fever to break. There are things that we can do to make get through it faster but that takes collective effort of americans. We as americans have to be willing and support and choose which which is 100 in line with emotional beliefs. Weve got to learn to tolerate differences and, in fact, so i look forward to that time when that happens again in american politics. Not just in arizona but we see it at the National Level and you see it state after state. Voters are mostly interested in choosingos the person who says what they agree with the loudest and there isnt much of a connection between delivering the results. In fact, my experience was, of course, in the list of all these bipartisan achievements, my experience was that there were some people who were very excited to see the the real difference that those laws have made in lives of arizonans but wasnt enough of what they wanted. And, you know, we live in an instant media world but we dont live in an instant work product world. So your catching as much as cultural phenomena and problem. How do you break that fever . How do you how do you do that and how long will it take . Is it a generational thing . I come back from parts of this state and others and its very much seems like generations from now. Not any time soon. I dont know. I cant read the future. What you hear from voters is also what i have been hearing and that is by in large what americans and more and more folks have interested in a strategy by any means necessary or this concept that is justified, weve had the debate over and over in the senate, of course, with thehe filibuster debate. I just fundamentally, i dont acceptpt it. I do not accept the justified means. I do not accept that. I believe when you do accept that youre accepting the way of interacting with each other as humans that individuality, our respect for each other and ourty sire for shared outcomes for the common good, so i reject it. When will the county choose that, i have no idea. I think we are in for a rough time. There are many people in this room who, across america who believe that the party needs burn down before it can be fixed. Do you share that thought . Did it just have to reach rock bottom . I dont know that it has to. But as a student of history i would note that things often do go through periods of darkness before we get to periods of light. That is true american and world history. So im not sure i can answer that fully since i just dont know and i dont lie so im not going to pretend to know. When you announced that you were not running, that you would be resigning rather than running forr reelection, youve said tht American Voters no longer wanted politicians to compromise but find solution, he goes back to that moment when you first realize that or a series of moments that its very much like watching you from afar with a slowmoving sort of really station that this is where likely would end up. I dont know that i can give you a moment or series, but what i can say is that in 20 years that i have been incredibly honored and privileged to serve arizona, it has gotten harder each year. Its harder and harder to find folks who are willing to compromise, who are willing to put aside the thing, the thing, whatever the thing was. It has become more difficult for folks to do find folks who are willing too put aside this one thing in order to get to the larger goal. It is somehow possible. Even still today, i continue to two to work with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to try and convince them to just at least collaborate and do the very basics of government. I will tell you that even that has become more difficult. Much, much more difficult. Move forward on pretty much everything. What i spend a lot of my time doing is that one persons need and help me address that need. Not pass important piece of legislation and i spenti a lot f my time and energy doing that. What i have found that individually with someone feels like youre being heard and respected and helped theyre much more willing to be cooperative but its getting hard. Lets talk about those moments, recent moment, you helped put together a Border Security bill that contained elements that republicans had largely been advocating for in the last 20 years but because of president ial politics republicans decided it would be better to walk away from securitybl problems rather thano fix them. How did that change your opinion of your colleagues . I dont think it changed anything. First of all, im incredibly proud of that package. It represented the most comprehensive most forceful and Effective Security measures that weve seen in the country in over a generation. A couple of parts that i didnt love but, again, compromise. So i was very proud l of the package. We worked very hard on it for five months and i worked very closely with a number of colleagues in both parties to ensure that we were listening to folks concerns, that we were incorporating what they needed. I spent amount of time telling Chuck Schumer and the white house that they needed to to the next thing. I did that for five months in a row. Im really proud of the package that we presented but i also knew within six hours that it was going to be that. How did you know . You could hear it. Did you sleep . I slept. Its disappointing. I would say disappointing on two fronts. One, first and foremost disappointing for my state, right, arizona has been eating the blunt of border crisis. I was born and raised in tucson. I know what this is like. I know how this has devastated border communities and i also know what it was like through interaction with migrants folksl that are being told and getting path to citizenship and theres no path at all for the individuals. They live in the shadows until such time they are deported or for the rest of their lives so this is not fair to them either. Its a humanitarian and security crisis. So first and foremost, i was f very, very upset for my state and then secondly, i was disappointed in the politics. Did you feel after all of this hard work, months of negotiation, did you feel on any level betrayed by your colleagues . , no i dont think thats a helpfulll word. Use otherrd would you than disappointed . Thats the word. There was just, look, i think the majority of senators, more than 60 senators wanted to vote yes on that package. Just not more than want today survive. Yeah, what did it tell you about that moment for democracy that it was, better for them politically to walk away from this than it was to fix it . Well, this is not a new story, right . John was in multiple gangs of 8 trying to fix immigration and ours was pretty much just border. Little bit of visa but mostly just border and so the story unwillingness to do the big hard thing in front of you because of the shortterm political repercussions is not new story and its not just a border story. Its also the story that our country is facing when it comes to solving the crisis of dealing with short falls and Social Security and medicare. It is also the crisis we are dealing with its not a unique story. Its just the loud one right now. The other stories are just as dangerous for our country. It seems as though, the time that border package felt apart, all signs were pretty much pointing towards not Reelection Campaign but also seemed like into the race. How did this play into the decision or did it . No. It felt quibble with the word . Yeah. Its not my word. Im very precise as you know. I just you know, im serving in the worlds greatest body and its been incredible privilege and there are days, many of them now, little bit of awork and not particularly in solving problem and those in this room who have known me for many years know that what i love most is i love getting a tough problem. But im interested in getting that solution and making it better for the community that we serve and i loved serving in the senate during the time when i was ablein to do that over and over and over again and i am not interested in not doing that with my time. What are you going to do next . As soon as i know and to be hear, i have no idea, but im excited about a future where i will work to solve problems for people who want solutions. Im really looking forward to that. Its become quite common for elected officials of either major parties privately express concerns about the extremism as they put it in their own party very few are openly willing to confront it head on obviously. I understand why. Right. A lot of them talk about it in private and senator romney in his book quite a bit about some of the things the colleagues say privately but will not say publicly. What are your colleagues telling you without naming names . Well, he and i have the same colleagues. [laughter] i presume you may be willing to share conversations with yourr conversations, what are yu listening to and what are you telling them . Well, this will come to a surprise. Not everyone loves it. Look, there is a tendency to let someone else to take the arrows and i have always been fine taking them because i believe that you should stand on the courage of your convictions and you should be open andnd honest and direct about who you are and what you believe and if there are those who dont like it, let the chips fall where they may. One person in my life who was the best example for that was john mccain. He said what he thought. You let the chips fall where they may and sometimes those chips fell all around your seat t,and you just kept going. Not everyone is comfortable with that. So i do believe everyone, all of us as humans are always doing the best we can every day. And is that is what i remind myself as i began begin to feel frustrated and disappointed. What do your colleagues tell you . Some people are glad that i have been willing to take arrows. What else . I dont really want to tellre you anything else. Sorry. [i its a shame. [laughter] many of the biggest pieces of legislation you helped passra including the infrastructure law were also pushed by the Biden Administration. President biden has frequently said that he wants lawmakers to Work Together, to compromise in the same spirit as you are talking about and when embodied by senator mccain. Do you think the president is practicing the same sort of politics that he preaches . The white house has t kind of two sides, right, and i dont mean this in a negative way, just observing. I think that, you know, the folks who get things done understand that bipartisan is the best way to get things done. Or has he on the other hand sort of fallen inn the same bipartisn patterns. I think the s partisans are partisans. You want to elaborate . Well, i mean, biden and trump say things, that is what they do. Do you think the american electorate recognizes that as it pertains to b the Biden Administration . I think the t american electorate. At the same time efforts to create a different path, is it even possible, do you think, to make a difference outside of the twoparty system in the shortterm. I did try that experiment. Hence the question i would offer no. Maybe someone more talented than me. I dont know. Faced unique i can tell you thaton i tried an experiment and it wasnt as successful i would have hope ed tohave been. What happened in arizona is replicated. Right now we are at the center of some of the most specific issues of our era. We have the border issue. We have election denialism that is reached a fever peak and likely only going to getse wors. We have a fight over abortion access, we have the fight over longterm Natural Resources like water. Everywhere you look in this state there seems to be chaos and crisis. Arizona is in so many ways frontier of american democracy and why do you think and what is the way out till this day . Well, i t think one of the reasons why arizona is often seen as kind of a bellwether or canary in the coal mine is that arizona has a long history of independence. People think what they think in arizona and unlike in other states we dont really feel the need to lie about it. We just say it. I appreciatee that. Its kind of shock actually. Not everyone just says what they think to your face and you have to figure out how to decode it. People say what they say. What is unfortunate, i think, is polarization that we have seen in both parties, you know. It wasnt this polarized a decade ago. Actually my friend and former colleague adams is here, he was the speaker of the house and i was, what, i had some title of leadership. Minority leader. I was the shadow minority probably. Title but,e had the yeah, i did the work. The ability that we had to Work Together, the agreements that we would make about how to move forward were wonderful. I mean, wonderful. We would stand together at the back of the floor session and actually have conversations about, you know, what are we going to do next and it wasnt like we were bargaining, its that we were having adult rational conversations about how the solve problems and move forward. When we say i have that relationship for t which im vey grateful with both Mitch Mcconnell andnd the two men running to replace him, cornyn. Theres this country, stt feels like that has complicated things and i think the advent of media and money as i mentioned earlier have influenced that because, you know, folks want to be a tiktok star and raise money on theer internet because they gave speech or Something Like that and that has gotten worse and i think that that has helped push arizonans and americans farther to the partisan corners. Again, we keep its such a conversation but to come back on how to solve that, this is a cultural issue. You cant legislate your way out of this. Treat our fellow man differently maybe with with respect and curiosity rather than skepticism hand hatred but that takes tim. We are running out of time and there probably should be a book at some time. There will not be. If we continue on the trajectory where are we in the next 10, 20 years . Oh, i dontik like that question at all. Do i think that our political ranker gets worse in the shortterm. Theres not anything successfully working to stop it or break it up. Some of us have tried. Again, im not sure that the experiments have gonegh exactlyo plan but theres not recipe that appears to be working right now so i do think things will get more difficult. One thing that im actually concerned about that i dont see anyone really talking about or thinking about much. I know that youre probably thinking about regardless of which candidate wins, i believe there will be a swell of movement by either extreme to seek to invalidate or degrade or denigrate the outcome of the election. I think we should prepare for that. Im concerned about that. Okay, so you have said that you do not intend on engaging politically in the 2024 election . I dont think that would be thelpful for any candidate . Ive within doing that for 20 years. Why not get involved . Why not maybe not candidate specific but on a different level . I said this in my announcement when i decided to retire. The American Public iss not interested in what imte selling right f now. Final question for you, if you could offer your successor no matter who that may be piece of advice, piece of wisdom, what would it be . Just one . Dont promise things you cant deliver. Candidates up and down the ballot from the t very highest o very lowest continue to promise things they cant deliver. So dont promise that what you know is not true. Gh[laughter] another piece of advice that i would offer, makes me so happy, i love thiss man, another piece of advice is to become true friends with every Single Member of the United States senate, make true meaningful personal relationships not based on politics and ideology but personal relationships because when you have a personal relationship with someone, they will do what you ask ten or a hundred or a thousand times more even t if they dont agree with you politically. Thats the secret of success that i cant even list out today. Theres so, so many of them that have come solely because of my personal friendships with other senators and the third piece of advice that i would give is just be quite different than what you are campaigning as because candidates who campaign as righteous warriors through the edges of the public spectrum would not be productive in getting outcomes for the state of arizona. Period because we said earlier, the shit works. Like, working together, forming relationships, compromising, it works and our state has been the recipient of more benefit from the senators who not just me but those who serveme before me because all of us are willing to work across the aisle and get things done. Our state deserves to have that. We detomb keep it. Senator, thank you so much. Dont go yet, dont go yet. [applause] stay there. So i got to know your senator. I heard you in the last few years and there are a few things that i want i to underscore. I think you probably heard them and perhaps got a sense of them here. One is that youve heard very clearly from ivonne which is that senator sinema is highly effective in getting legislation passed that affect our lives. Mitch mcconnell said she is the most effective senator in the United States senate. Thats Mitch Mcconnell on the other side of the aisle who said she is most effective. We worked together on a number of bipartisan bills. She was the power behind them. She was the lead, the republican thatha paired with her but she s the one that drove it. It was extraordinary. Thats number 1. We are going to miss her a lot in that regard. Number 2, she by virtue intelligence, personality, energy and willingnessnd to dig in, shes been able to get people to Work Together even on things that are not related to those big pieces of legislation and before i left last week, i was sitting next to my colleagues in the back room of the senate and it was senator bill cassidy on one side and tom tillis on the other and we were talking about how is this place going to work without Kyrsten Sinema and you might say no, no, when there are impasses and there are often impasses she goes back and forth and i have to tell you, theres some people in myy own party that i find distasteful. [laughter] i love that. She loves them. I know who shes talking about. They are great. She loves them and shes able to get them to do things. I would never be able to get them to do because they could tell, i dont like them. [laughter] and she does and i love them. So hes highly effective. I will mention one more thing. So we will miss her and the country will miss her a lot. We wonder, we really do wonder how is it going to work. Third thing is this, which is why did she become so toxic to the base of the Democrat Party . All right, what was it, what was the point when that really came home . And that was on the socalled filibuster rule, okay. And by the way, the term full filibuster is a 06 vote rule, to pass the senate requires republicans and democrats to agree. G you to compromise to get something into law. Kyrsten sinema felt that was important. Interestingly all of her colleagues, i think all but maybe one or two of her colleagues several years ago 33 of them. 33 democrat senators several years ago when republicans had the white house, the senate, and the house of representatives, all three, the democrats realized, we could if we got rid of 60vote rule we republicans can do anything and donald trump was saying i want to do all these things, im going get rid of all the unions inin for public sphere and 33 democrats 33 democrats. She has better numbers than i have. 33 democrats signed a letter to mitchte mcconnell, do not get rd of that rule. It is absolutely essential to the preservation of democracy to make suree that we compromise ad guess what . When the time came when the democrats inhe the house, senate and white house, every Single Person decided to vote to get rid of 60 vote rule. And who was it who took the blame for saying no. It was extraordinary to me there cry about the Democratic Party to say, wait a this person has integrity and the other 33, where are heck are they . But instead they went after her. It speaks volumes about the divisiveness in our country. [applause] thank you. I thinkmp that was the most important photo i took up my entire 20 years. I do believe its the most important boat i ever took and i dont regret it at all but if i had to do itre over again i do exactly the same. Thank. Chris i dont know, this again goes back to the beginning. The early question. This one open cultural. I think it is incumbent on us as americans to a psychology back i talk about this a lot theres ed, the ego and the super ego. That id is the small selfish part of d it that wants to do exactly what you want in the moment. As a person eats three pieces of cake even though you are going to get sick the ego is the part worried about what other people think. Ot but the process of one piece of cake they were about looking greedy in front of others the superego is willing to sacrifice for the greater good and do that which matters for the common good. The superego is the steward the steward of our country. We are in an id place right now. Everything is shortterm, what feels good emotionally right now. Thats why elected officials are lying in promising things that are just not possible or true. Theres a few people who believe in the ego. There are a few superego. Very, very few. Culturally is to shift back. I understand. The one or you think a lease long term about is this good for me today and in five years . Is this good for might favor . How will this be perceived in the world . Youve got to shift back to this thinking more than just the short term personal victory. Think about the impact of our desires, of behaviors of not just ourselves. How does our behavior impact others . Are we thinking about tomorrow or the next day or 10 years from now . If we as a culture begin to do that, that is how we can tolerate a difference of opinion for and embrace the idea someone else might have an opinion different than your own. And crazy i know but they might have a better idea than yours. You could learn and change or broker. Thats part of the human experience. This is what we teach our children i hope. And our politics. It is incumbent on us as americans to do that. Thank you so much. [applause] [applause] 30 vital be in new york to give the commencement address to the u. S. Military academy at west point will be his third commencent address at the academy but his first as commanderinchief. Watch live at 10 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan cspan now our free mobile video app or online at cspan. Org. This memorial day weekend on cspan q a retired u. S. Senate historian betty share stories from her book scene, people, places and events that shape of the United States senate. Collection of brief chronicles of Senate History she presented during the tuesday caucus luncheon between 2009 and 2023. Some of the stories told include the influence and power Senate Majority leader Lyndon Johnson for the story of the first female senator and when mark twain worked as a senate staffer. He is not yet a famous author. He was a promising a rising risr at the time. He was working on his first book that he was looking for a job to help pay the bills to essentially promote his writing career. Stewart, and despite his sinister appearance did give him a job and he became a clerk in stewarts office for at that time, that is not unusual descent only met into the often hired reporters and clerks who were mutual beneficiaries did not prove to be optically good citizen employee picnics about it with her book for 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan q and a. All of our podcasts on cspan now app. Today an unprecedented armada of normandy. These are the boys. These are the men who took the cliffs. These are the championship help free a continent. These are the heroes that had helped end a war progressed to a million suns from 15 countries jumped into flak filled skies a blood soaked surface and met death on even plain. Cook the sons of democracy improvise and mounted their own attacks. At that exact moment on these beaches. The forces of freedom turn the tide of the 20th century. The road to edict dday was hard and long travel by weary and valiant men is a record where the road began to begin here with the first footprints on the beaches of normandy. More than one or 50000 souls setting onto the tiny sliver of sand which hung more than the fate of a war. But rather the course of human history. Today we remember those who fell and we honor all who fought right here in normandy. What cspan all day coverage of the 80th anniversary of dday. Thursday june 6 featuring speech by President Biden from normandy, france. Cspan is your unfiltered view of government. Funded by these Television Companies and more including. Support cspan as a Public Service along wit these other television providers. Giving a front row seat with democracy. U. S. Commerce secretary testifies on the president s 2025 budget requests for House Appropriations subcommittee. She also answered questions on Artificial Intelligence regulation competition with china the inclusion of noncitizens on the u. S. Census. Its just under two hours