Voting rights act in 1965. It are outward together, we will learn how lbj got the Voting Rights bill passed in congress and we will also talk to experts and also be going behind the scenes with white house telephone recordings. Lets introduce our experts. Joining us in washington, d. C. Kent germany. He is a history professor at the university of south carolina. Thank you for joining us. Mr. Germany thank you. It is my pleasure. Host our next guest was the secretary of health, education and welfare, and he was the author of the triumph and tragedy of Lyndon Johnson. The white house years. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us. Guest nice to be with you. Host mr. Germany, the lbj project, what is that . Mr. Germany it is trying to get all of the recordings transcribed, edited, annotated anything you would need to know to understand what is going on in a conversation. The editors are there. We are trying to put everything out from the assassination. It is Lyndon Johnsons vision of history with the work off and youre talking about a lot of work on with these telephone calls. Host what do the telephone calls reveal . Other than what we know about how the history is concerned . Mr. Germany Lyndon Johnson was extremely busy. The Voting Rights is one of many things going on in 1960 five and he is dedicated to getting very significant Voting Rights legislation passed, and he is not going to yield on it and you also get to see people called him a magician. They called him on a lot of different things, but one thing he is is easy active, and you get to see Lyndon Johnson pulling a lot of strings, but also doing it very quietly. Host what you think that Lyndon Johnson was so intent on getting this done, especially when it came to civil rights . Mr. Califano there was discrimination in the workplace and schools, but he thought the Voting Rights act was the most important piece of legislation he would pass and that it would dramatically give power to africanamericans who had been kept away from the polls intentionally and deliberately in the south, but also in some other areas, for many, many years, and indeed, because taking over 70 of their problems. But he told us this is the most important people of legislation. He believed in the vote, that that was important, and this is a guy who was elected to congress in 1938, and basically he was and the house Elections Senate elections, and president ial elections. And he won big, and when he lost the first time he was trying to get into the senate. Host mr. Califano, in your book, you say the part of the reason was he thought it was a race against time. Can you give us a perspective on that . Mr. Califano yes, in triumph and tragedy, which i appreciate you mentioning, he was in a race against time. He thought that once there was light at the end of the title what the press had excepted as inevitable became intolerable and he was constantly concerned that we had to move fast on Voting Rights, on civil rights, on other legislation, because there was inevitable inpatients once they could see that there was a chance to access whether it was health programs, Jobs Education programs, and it was lets get the bill up here. Lets get it passed. Lets get the departments in forcing it, and he was very, very conscious of that, and the people that were trying to help could do the most damage to the Voting Rights efforts. As we saw in some of the disturbances, the riots in newark and in and in detroit over that period of time. Host lets start with the phone calls. The president is talking to his attorney general. Its the first conversation we hear about the two gentlemen. Its a month after the president s landslide victory in 19 4. Heres the discussion with the roting right acts start. Lets listen to that. I want to you take the legislative drafting. All right. President johnson i basically believe that if we can have a simple, effecti method of getting them registered. Now, if the state laws are too high and they disqualify if the register stars make them stand in line too long, maybe we can work it out where the post masters do it. Lets look at other at it was. President conditioned johnson lets see what you can do and were going to need it pretty quick. All right. Host mr. Califano, lets start with you about that phone calm. Fill in the blanks for us. Tell us what was going on. He had i believe on that day met with Martin Luther king or was meeting with him after that phone call and with andrew young. The conversation was generally about what he could do for blacks in the United States about civil rights generally but also about job. That was the first real conversation he had with dr. King about voting right. He made it clear in that meeting that he was going to get Voting Rights to congress and pass in the next year. It was very much on his mind. As i said, he thought it was the crown jewell of his presidency. Host that was the attorney generals reaction to that first conversation we just heard. What were the attorney generals concerns . Mr. Califano he immediately began working on it. Voting rights was on the civil rights agenda. It was a much tougher bill to pass than the 19 4 civil rights bill and he went back to the Justice Department and started working on drafting. Host give us some perspective of what you heard. One of the things is Lyndon Johnson starts off about the new deal. We want this thing done faster than the midnight drafting party you did during the new deal. Hes deeply rooted into this long period of time of period of liberalism. Hes getting the attorney general going. He had been there for a while. He was the civil rights backbone in the Justice Department. Hes a fascinating person. A prison of war in world war ii. Hes an anchor and someone often fargoen. Host they clearly get a sense that l. B. J. Had a specific way he wanted this to progress. Absolutely, and the attorney general gets people to start drafting legislation. Starts putting together his testimony hes going to put before committees. Johnson is a detailed guy and the attorney general is putting together the details. Host mr. Califano would you agree that the president clearly had in mind how he wanted this to progress even in day one . Host mr. Califano theres no question. He had to get 6 votes to break what would be a long southern filibuster. He knew he was going to have to work with dirkson but first he wanted to have a real sense of the bill. He wanted to know what all the traps were and how to get it done so that it would be effective. Enough power so they could get something done when it came to endorsing what congress passed. He became a very important part of this legislation and Lyndon Johnson knew that. Host lets move ahead. June 4, 19 5. President johnson goes to Howard University here in washed. Two months before he would sign the Voting Rights act, the leaders of speech at Howard University talking about justice. Lets hear a portion of that speech. American justice is a very special thing. This has been a land of towering expectations. It was to be a nation where each man could be ruled by the Common Consent of all, enshrined in all, given life by institutions. Guided by men themselves subject to its rule. And all, all of every station and origin would be touched equally in obligation and in liberty. Beyond the law lay the land. It was a richland, glowing with more abundant promise than man had ever seen. Here unlike any place yet known, all were to share the harvest. And beyond this was the dignity of man. Each could become whatever his qualities of mind and spirit would permit. To strive to seek, and if he could, to find his happiness. This is american justice. We have pursued it faith fully to the faithfully to the engine of our improsecutor imperfections and we have failed to find it for the American Negro. So it is the glorious opportunity of this generation to end the one huge wrong of the american nation, and in so doing, to find america for ourselves. With the same immense thrill of discovery which gripped those who first began to realize that here at last was a home for freedom. [applause] host its important to note hes making the speech at an Historic Black College here in the United States. Making an argument about the legislation thats coming. What sense do you get about the argument hes making . That america is not a country that black and right. Hes making an argument here that america should be black and white and americans are all the same. Thats going to be the core of his selma speech that he makes during the selma movement. Hes making the point that this is an american problem not just a negro problem. He paints us a picture of a scripture of a light and not letting it burn out. The reverend from birmingham was famous for saying its a fire that cant burn out. Host mr. Califano, whats going through your mind as youre listening to the speech . The speech i think was a very important one across the board, as kent was indicating. This was a speech in which johnson laid out articulated his concept of affirmative action. The two runners at the starting line. One who had been in chains for years and one who had been training for years and could you call it a fair race when tchare both at the starting line . An important point that Lyndon Johnson made to dr. King in one of the phone conversations and on other occasions. He said lets not call this a bill for negro Voting Rights. This is a bill for Voting Rights for all. Everyone is entitled to the right to vote, whether theyre white, black mexican whatever, and thats the way we should frame this as everyones right to vote. I think that was all also part of johnson. And lastly this point about the dignity. When he goes to congress with the Voting Rights bill, he talks about im here for the dignity of man and the destiny of democracy. To him, the vote was at the core of our nations ability to say we are a democratic society. Host did he write this speech himself . How much input did he have in the speech itself . Mr. Califano i think he had a lot of input in every speech we wrote. I think dick goodwin was the main writer. But a lot of people took a look at it. And i think its important to remember that johnson used to go over these speeches. You can go to the l. B. J. Library and see what he crossed out and added in various drafts. As you can see, as you can do when you listen to these tapes that ken has been putting together and making available to people for years but just going online to the milli center down at the university of virginia and listen to all of the entire speech. Which in this case is certainly worth listening too. Host im impressed by some of the words, the phrasing. The american justice. How about the language what do you hear from that . There are many different l. B. J. s. The public statesman that has his hair combed. Glasses on. He was a speech teacher. He taught high school speech. That comes out in public speeches. Behind the scenes on the telephone, a lot of times you hear the more colloquial johnson, where he lays it out as you would when the door is closed. That is one of the things you get on the private telephone recordings you do not get in these public speeches. Bill moyer has an interesting phrase that Lyndon Johnson was the 13 most interesting man he knew in his life. You get all 13 men and these recordings. Host this conversation is between the president and Martin Luther king jr. That take place in 19 5. Before we go to the recording, what was the relationship between the two men at the time . Mr. Germany it is tricky. Lyndon johnson is somebody that has succeed an assassinated president. He has this massive electoral victory in 19 4. Martin luther king junior, in many parts of the country, is the most hated american. There was a lot of opposition to Martin Luther king junior. There were billboards all over the south claiming he was a communist. Johnson is concerned. There are f. B. I. Reports coming to johnson from j. Edgar however, who despised king and despised most of the civil rights movement. So johnson is wary. But you can see evidence that he is an ally. But allies are not necessarily people that go swimming naked in the white house pool, which a lot of people did. Allies are people that often get along the least. So they both have things that theyre going for and both have things that they want. Getting to that point is the trick in politics. It is the art of the possible. You have two men who were exquisite politicians. Host we will hear that and family will get joe califanos thoughts. Dr. King its very interesting mr. President , the only state that you didnt carry, got less than 40 of the negros registered to vote. A recent article from the university of texas clearly demonstrates its so important to get negros registered to vote in large numbers in the south. And it will be a coalition of the negro vote in the moderate white vote that will make the new south. President johnson thats exactly right. I think its very important to say were not doing this just because its negros or whites but we take the position, that every person born in this country when they reach a certain age, they have a right to vote. Just like he has a right to fight. And we extend it whether it is a negro or a mexican or who it is. Number two, i think we do not want special privilege for anybody. We won equality for all. We can stand on that principle. I think you can contribute a great deal by getting your leaders, and you yourself, taking very simple examples of discrimination where a man has got to memorize longfellow, whether hes got to quote the first 10 amendments or he has to tell you what amendment 15, 16, 17 is, and then ask them if they know, and show what happens. Some people do not have to do that, but when a negro comes in, he has got to do it. If we can repeat and repeat and repeat i do not want to follow hitler, but he had an idea that if you just take a simple thing and repeat it often enough, even it it if it wasnt true, that people would think it was true. If you can find the worst condition you run into, alabama, mississippi, louisiana, north carolina. I think one of the worst i ever heard of was the head of the Government Department or something being denied the right to cast the vote. You just take that one illustration, get it on radio and television, get it in the pull pits, in the meetings, every place you can, pretty soon the fellow that did not do anything but drive a tractor, he will say, thats not right. Thats not fair. That will help us, what we are going to shove through in the end. Dr. King youre exactly right about that. President johnson if we do that, it will be the greatest breakthrough of anything, not even excepting this 1964 act. I think the greatest achievement of my administration, i think the greatest achievement in Foreign Policy. I said to a reporter yesterday, was the 1964 civil rights act. This will be bigger because it will do things even the 1964 act could not do. Host mr. Califano, your thoughts on this phone conversation . Mr. Califano it shows several things. One, they were partners in the effort to pass this. Two, they both were very good politicians. We think of Martin Luther king as a preacher but as kent indicated, hes a very good politician. Also, i would note, johnson was always careful with anybody but remember dr. King said whenever he went to see johnson all he wanted to talk about was how he could get something done, a law passed. When hed go to see president kennedy the first thing hed be asked was do you have a communist advisor. You have to do this and that because however was pumping this stuff into the white house. Now, the other very important point that comes out of this lbj realize he needed that. He needed something to ignite the people so that could put pressure on the congress. He knew what he was going to send to congress and this really was a good part of what became selma. Because this takes place on june january 15. Stache, certainly in december, as andrew young said, neither johnson nor king knew anything about selma. It was julian bond, another civil right leader, who was down there trying to agitate and get the vote, to get people registered to vote and have some kind of demonstration. King comes back to lbj, i believe it was february 9, and he meets with them and tells him, he has the place, the place is sell match. Johnson hopes there will be no violence there. There was horrendous violence there, as we know eventually, including a black minister getting killed and john lewis getting quite beat up. At that point, president johnson calls the governor of alabama, george wallace, to the white house, setting the stage, so to speak. Wallace says to him, i cannot protect the voters and lbj says, dont tell me that, george. Dont tell me that, george. You were able to make sure the votes were there to beat me in alabama. And wallace says he cannot protect the marchers, and johnson indicates to him if he cannot protect the marchers, he will have to protect them he, lbj, will have to protect the marchers. One of johnsons great line lines which is, dont talk to me like that george. Thats b. S. It is a lot easier to slip on bullshit then it is on gravel. Johnson has wallace go out to be white house and meet the press the press corps is out there knowing that wallace will, as he did, recite all the segregation ist stuff. This was the guy that said segregation forever. This was all setting the stage for a court case in alabama that ultimately becomes a case that gave the marchers the right to vote im sorry, the right to demonstrate and have the march from selma to montgomery and also provided the hook that l. B. J. Needed to federalize the Alabama National guard, put it under his control so it could be ordered to protect the marchers as they went in the sort of the glorious part of the selma march, from selma to montgomery, alabama. Where, incidentally, in a speech in montgomery, Martin Luther king thanks lbj for what he did. They both knew i think one thing johnson really knew was he needed king to get this legislation passed and king knew he needed johnson using all of his skills, which were enormous and varied, to get the legislation passed. They did something together that neither could have done alone. Host mr. Germany, what would you add to that . Mr. Germany Lyndon Johnson is in the white house. There are a lot of people in sell marks alabama and elsewhere that are trying to get things pushed. Its that pressure from the bottom up. King is like the pressure valve. He is the thing that johnson goes through where that mass pressure comes up. It is that pressure really driving this Voting Rights thing. And Linden Johnson is pushing it from washington and hes being pushed along i think, gladly. Not necessarily how the things occur. Hes very concerned about violence because he doesnt want to send in the army but hes willing to send in the army, if necessary. Host lets go forward to when he has to get this through the legislature. A quick snapshot of lbjs relationship with congress. Mr. Germany there are a lot of conservative democrats that do not want Voting Rights or civil rights act. To get this passed, he need a lot of republicans to support it. So whatever bill comes through, got to have the support of republicans in the house and republicans in the senate. We will listen to Everett Dirksen later on. It is johnsons ability to know who does what in congress that gets this thing to work. Not necessarily him putting his thumb on somebody and pushing them, but to have somebody else do the pushing. And him sort of sit back and be president ial. Host mr. Califano, he speaks with the Senate Majority leader Mike Mansfield and the Senate Minority leader Everett Dirksen. Talk a little about their role in this and their relationship with l. B. J. Mr. Califano Everett Dirksen was critical. He was the House Republican minority leader i mean the Senate Republican minority leader and dirksen was critical to getting the republicans that were essential to breaking the filibuster so the Voting Rights act could get out of the senate. Mansfield was a highly different kind of leader than johnson was, and johnson, incidentally, was very conscious of that. He used to say you know, sometimes its got to bother mansfield how people say what a great Senate Leader i was and how i drove the senate and controlled out and mansfield was much more laid back, philosophical than johnson was, and that has got to hurt and weve got to be sensitive about that, but we needed them both. What he ultimately was aiming for, what he was aiming for was to get a bill that both of them would sign up on and really push through. Host lets listen to the conversation between the majority leader and the minority leader with the president. President johnson excuse me. I had a bunch of people in the office. I had to go to another phone so i could talk. How are you getting along . Mr. Mansfield fine. I got here in Everett Dirksens office. President johnson great job. Wonderful, wonderful. How are you, my friend . Glad to hear you. Mr. Dirksen all right. President johnson how are you feeling, everett . Mr. Dirksen i would feel better if you rustled me up half a dozen votes. President johnson you told me you did not want to. All id have done is just turn up 10 more against you. Mr. Dirksen i wanted you on the right side, thats all. President johnson you had a lot to do with that. Mr. Dirksen give seller a compliment. [indiscernible] not supporting the house position. Really a rough time. President johnson i will. And let me ask you he wants my judgment on this judges bill. Is that a necessary bill . Mr. Dirksen well, the judicial conference recommended it. Frankly, i do not know if we need it until next year. President johnson he said that yall didnt have any hearings in the judiciary committee. Mr. Dirksen they work rather closely president johnson you should have made a helluva speech there today. They make my wish i was there listening to you. Mr. Dirksen why were you not here . President johnson i cant have any fun anymore. They wont let me get out. If i could come out and visit you, i would do it every night. Mr. Dirksen why dont you do it now . President johnson if you stay there for 10, 15 minutes, i might do it. Im a little lonesome and id like to see you. Mr. Dirksen are you kidding . All right, my office. Host did that drink happen . Mr. Califano that drink did happen. Lbj went right up there and had a drink. I think there were some interesting things about drinks. Drinking up there everybody is on the same footage, but when johnson and dirksen had many drinks at the white house and when those drinks were served, he would make sure that dirksen got an ounce and a half of bourbon, and he, lbj, would drink about half an ounce of scotch, which was johnson using every technique he could use. I think the other thing that is i cant i have to put into this conversation which was, early on when he was talking to dirksen about the Voting Rights bill, there was a point where he said everett, you come with me dirksen was from illinois. He said, you come with me on this Voting Rights bill and 100 years from now there will only be two people theyll ever remember from the state of illinois. One will be Abraham Lincoln and the other will be Everett Dirksen. And he knew dirksen loved that kind of appreciation and flattery. And johnson knew exactly how to use it. As kent was saying, if you listen to these phone conversations he and his team are putting together, you really get a sense of his ability to touch exactly the right point with everybody. And the fact that all is said and done and the majority leader and the minority leader of the ites senate get in the minority Leaders Office to call the president and say we have got the bill, the bill is out just think about that in the context of the world were living in the United States today and the possibility of a Mitch Mcconnell and a harry reid going getting together and calling the president. That doesnt happen anymore. Mr. Germany maybe it was more like the set of mad men were you could just drink during the day, maybe things would be better. There was a key legislative bill. By obrien. He said one of the keys was to make sure the sober people stayed sober and the drinking folks kept drinking. That is part of what is going on here. Everett dirksen was critical to so much that was going on. That voice that you heard there gravelly, like somebody walking on a country road, that was a famous voice. Nicholas katzenbach talked about it. He said that some people call dirksen, instead of the wizard of oz, the wuffered of as. It was that ooze that made things work. But as partnership shifts over time, it becomes a different animal. Host what was it like for republicans to work with the president on this legislation . Mr. Germany you had to be careful. You did not want to get too tied up with johnson. On the telephone you can tell what dirksen does with the civil rights act, the year before this, was to try to get amendments to whittle down what the republicans wanted. The republicans wanted to support the civil rights bill, but they wanted their version of it and johnson would not let them. Dirksen realized he could not do anything. That is when he says, the powerful idea that its time has come. The time for the Voting Rights came a lot earlier. So me and mansfield get together a lot sooner than that situation happened during the civil right bill. Host mr. Califano, we have to move on, but a Quick Response . Mr. Califano one more comment Lyndon Johnsons instructions to all of us on the senior staff were you treat Mike Mansfield , the majority leader and Everett Dirksen, the minority leader the same. They need help, you give it to them. In the house, you treat speaker mccormick and the minority leader, who was gerald ford, the same. Give them the same accommodations. So, he saw the terrific importance of having republicans on a large part of his Great Society legislation. It was not just civil rights. The southern democrats who controlled the committees in the senate and almost all in the house were opposed to just about every part of the Great Society. The spending, putting the power in the hands of the federal government. They were very, very important. And we of course did what the president told us to do. Host lets go to august 6 1965. The Capitol Rotunda where president johnson signed the Voting Rights act. He spoke their first. You will get a chance to see that entire speech, the 50minute event, but here is a little bit of president johnson on the signing of the Voting Rights act. President johnson so let me now say to every negro in this country, you must register, you must vote you must learn, so your choice advance your interests and the interests of offer our beloved nation. [applause] your future and your childrens future depend upon it, and i do not believe you are going to let them down. This act is not only a victory for negro leadership. This act is a great challenge to that leadership. It is a challenge which cannot be met simply by protest and demonstration. It means that dedicated leaders must work around the clock to teach people their rights and their responsibilities and to lead them to exercise those rights and to fulfill those responsibilities and those duties to their country. And if you do this, then you will find, as others have found before you, that the vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible laws which imprison men because theyre different from other men. Today what is perhaps the last of the legal barriers is tumbling and there will many actions and many difficulties before the rights woven into law are also woven into the fabric of our nation. But the struggle for equality must now move to a different battlefield. It is nothing less than granting every American Negro his freedom to enter the mainstream of american life. Host mr. Califano, it sounds at the time when hes making that speech even at the signing of the passage, hes putting the onus on africanamericans to go forward and make something happen with the legislation . Mr. Califano yes, absolutely. A couple of things, if i may. One, that table that hes sitting at when he signs the bill, the morning of that day, he said to me, i want you to get a table, a nice small table and get it up to the capitol. Thats the table i want to sign the bill on and then i want to you pick it up and get it back so we have it. Some day that can go in the library and it is today in the l. B. J. Library. It is one of the most potent demonstrations there. The other thing is, he did put the onus on them. He was willing to do husband part and he did. File lawsuits to go after poll tax and other things in several of the states. Have them declared uncongressional. He wanted to get federal monitors into as many counties as possible. We said we really dont have federal monitors. And l. B. J. Said we have federal employees. Katzenbach can name the monasteries and we did get monasteries monitors in a lot of the states. I think lastly, john lewis told me, and i had forgotten this two things. On the way up to make that signing statement and sign the bill, in the limousine, i was in the limousine. I think that goodwin may have been in it and a couple overs. He said, this will really change america if the negroes vote. If they vote. And then after that, john lewis said, you know, the president grabbed him and grabbed a couple of the others remember, john lewis in those days was one of the radical young guys in the protest area. And he got him and a couple of the others and said, you are the young guys. You guys have the energy now. You go from protest to politics. Get those negroes off to the voting booth. Get them to vote. Get them to sign up. Drive them, what have you. John lewis said years later to me, you know, when i ran for congress, i remember all of the things Lyndon Johnson told me to do. Get the grandmas in the car, get the young people to drive them to be polling booths, all of the things you do to get people to vote. This was Lyndon Johnsons world. I say in my book, we are living in Lyndon Johnsons world today with all of the laws, but this certainly was, and look what it has done in terms of the congressmen and senators who are black in the federal government and the thousands of state and local people who are black, who are elected all over this country. Host mr. Germany, in the speech, he uses terms like it will be a different battlefield. Many actions, many drifts. He knew that even with the passage of this law, there was still work to do. Mr. Germany there was a lot of work to do. You go back and listen to that conversation between king and johnson. King says that the new south is going to be built from progressive democrats, white democrats and africanamerican voters and that becomes the backbone to have Democratic Party. I think that was Lyndon Johnsons vision from 19 4 forward, to remake the Democratic Party. If you look of the population, there were several counties that had no black voters registered and had not had black voters registered for 60 years. There was a major problem in the south. So johnson comes along and he is putting down new bricks to reconstruct these support structures for what he envisions as the Great Society. Host to the point of the future go ahead, mr. Califano, if you want to throw a quick thought in. Mr. Califano as kent knows, signing the 19 4 act, returning the south over to the Republican Party for my lifetime, he told bill moyers and maybe yours. But i think kent is right. He knew it over time, as he said, the power of the vote would change the south and it has and it is changing the south. Just think about the republican senator who survived in was it louisiana kent, or mississippi . Because he got the black vote to help him. Host a Quick Response, mr. Germany . Mr. Germany absolutely. You can go through the 1990s where the Democratic Party is still pretty much the dominant party in the south. Its a two party south. It is much less so over the last 10 years. Host well have to continue on, only on that same day the legislation is passed, the president makes another phone call with the attorney general. Its that evening and is talking about the mississippi golf paul johnson. Hes concern about federal examiners in examiners that are going to be enforcing the new laws. Heres a bit of that conversation. President johnson he says, they will send them into the county and they didnt old study and you do not need it, that is number one. A number two, if you look at the others who are in the state, if you look at these laws a told you this was exactly what was going to happen. You just incite them and make it worse. And if you send them in the 18th that would be all right and thats not but 10 days. And he wished he could find some way to instruct them. So he could win his constitutional amendment. The first one shows up and they say, oh, theres that yankee, telling us what to do. I told him i would talk to you about it. And i asked him to study about it over the weekend. That i would give him a commitment that you would do nothing until you had studied it thoroughly, particularly an bottoms county, which is and a half and he has any other areas mr. Katzenbach i think adams ought to be knocked out. President johnson and you would call them before you did anything. Soil call him and tell him the same thing. I do not know if you can get out of it. Maybe he is right. Maybe hes wrong. It sounds to me, if i were there, it sounds to me, unless we have to produce something on the 18th, the 18th would be better than the eighth. For this reason i think if a yankee does walk in there, it makes people vote against his program. The constitutional amendment certainly does not hurt us and it would help is a little, i guess. If anything that comes from washington in an election hurts you. Roosevelt endorsed me once and he said my old and trusted friend, and it defeated me. He thought he was helping me and i thought he was helping me, but they use it against you. Mr. Katzenbach it is awful hard to go into louisiana and president johnson thats right, but maybe we ought to secure this pretty easy and go into alabama. Study it and was talk about it monday or tuesday. All right. President johnson how many you plan to go in . 2, 3, 4 . Mr. Katzenbach the max would be you are fofment path johnson ok bye. Host here is lbj working behind the scenes to get legislation even though the legislation had passed. Tell us about that. Mr. Germany he made a friend in mississippi, paul johnson, the governor. They have constitutional amendments, the state of mississippi voting on it, which they will pass overwhelmingly, which is an attempt to say, we are taking care of the voting problem. We do not need the federal government. But johnson wants to give his new friend id say friend. About as friendly as you can be with an arch segregationist from mississippi but he wants to give him this cushion. He does not want to send registrars and these counties. This is johnson trying to build something into this. The deeper story is the county he is talking about, in the next year, there will be ku klux klan members who will kidnap and murder a black man specifically to try to get Martin Luther king jr. To come down to natchez so they can try to assassinate king. Mississippi is an extraordinarily violent place that is something you should understand. What is going on here has a very deep and violent history. Host mr. Califano . Mr. Califano i think all of that is correct. Also, notice a couple of other things. One, that is why the president ultimately said to nick and to me, try and get registrars, federal registrars and these counties for voting that come from the state, that come from the state. So, he was very conscious of not sending yankees in to any of the states, because he did not want the southern congressmen and others to have that argument. You are sending yankees down from the south. So by and large, most of the central federal registrars came from the states they were going to work in in the county voting areas and also eastland, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary committee violent segregationists. He was very important to Lyndon Johnson and johnsons desire to get judges through the senate that would be basically comfortable with affirmative action and civil rights and all of the things that were happening. That mention of eastland is just a little signal, a reminder to nick katzenbach, who was well aware of it as well, we have beaten eastland now a couple of times badly, but he did not have to say it. They understood it. They were going to need him to at least lay back on the judges. Host mr. Germany, do you want to add to that . Mr. Germany there is a quick anecdote. Nick katzenbach gave testimony to one of the congressional committees laying out all of the problems in mississippi voting. His staff put together an elaborate list. Eastland called katzenbach, and he said nick, you know too much about the state of mississippi and then he hung up the phone. Host that same day another phone call take place, with john stennis of mississippi. The recording starts with the president , his earlier conversations as you heard from our gentleman with the attorney general and the mississippi government heres that phone call. President johnson he said, why it would provoke the president and just make it deeper and this fellow johnson that was governor has drawn out on us and so fauth. So i told the attorney general to see if he could not study carefully over the weekend and minimize what his problem was and i will have him call both you and the governor. Senator stennis that is mighty fine. I appreciate that. Governor johnson has really gotten out front. President johnson i know he has. The attorney general told me. The constitutional amendment would be helpful. We want to help, not to hurt him. We think that would be fine. I have been in the same shape for 20 years. I know something about this. The attorney general is going to look at it over the weekend. Ill talk to him and then hell call both of you. Senator stennis that is mighty fine. I deeply appreciate that. President johnson give her a little hug for me and keep one for yourself. Senator stennis thank you. President johnson he is going to get mighty cocky when he gets on a roll up there, isnt he . When he put me up on the roof senator stennis he is mighty proud. He is grateful, and i am too. President johnson i think we aught to call hum lightning as fast as he is. Tell him he runs better up here than he does in mississippi. You tell him that. Senator stennis i will. Host give us a sense of the underlying politics of what is going on with this phone call. Mr. Germany johnson needs everybody. Theres not a lot of risk in what hes doing,stennis is a major figure in i think. Terms of military things Foreign Policy things, and maybe he is not going to support certain things but that personal friendship can be used in a lot of different ways. And i think he just likes to talk to people. You can hear that laugh. Thats a great laugh. He loves to tell people he loves them. This was a strange thing. He will be in a bitter political struggle with somebody and then at the end of the conversation, i love you. Not like the bud light i love you mankind of stuff. He has a general affection for people who are in the fray in washington. Host do you agree with that . Mr. Califano i agree and i would note, john stennis was a critical ally of Lyndon Johnson on the vietnam war. He needed him for that. As long as he was in the senate. I think that was another very important reason why he was very friendly with the senate and i think kents right. He genuinely loved these guys. He knew so much about their personal lives. He had been with their wives and had dinner with them. He loved politics. He loved you can call it schmoozing, but he loved talking to them and he truly understood. As he said to stennis, i know what its like. Ive run for office. I have run in exactly the same situations you guys are in now. And that was a terrific thing. It was with republicans, it was with democrats. He was terrific about that. And when dirksen was in the president johnson was in germany at one point and dirksen was in the hospital with a very bad flu, and he called me about other things, and he told me, i want you to call Everett Dirksen and tell him i just called you and told you to find out how he was and did he need anything and did he have the best doctors because by god i need him. And he said i need to hear that voice on television. Television. I cant hear it in the senate anymore, but tell him i want to hear him on television. He loved that. That was his world. That was his family. Host we only have a couple minutes left. I want to ask you both the president said the Voting Rights act would be his greatest legacy. I want to get your thoughts on if he was right. If history bears that out. Mr. C affection lifanmr. Califano i think absolutely o . History bears it out. It bears it out with, you know, all the africanamericans that have been elected all over the country. In terms of a core element of the political system in this country, it also has changed the Democratic Party. Think about this the reality today is that democrats cannot win the white house unless they get 90 of the negro vote they are a critical part of the Democratic Party. And i think we are living in Lyndon Johnsons america in a whole host of other ways. Health, education program, the corporation for public broadcasting, you name it. The endowment for the arts and humanities. But that vote is what makes the Democratic Party what it is today. And i think its a critical thing, and you will notice even as you look at the president ial races that are now going on, a similar thing happening with the latinos in our country. Theres a great consciousness in the Republican Party and the Democratic Party of the important of that group of immigrants in terms of winning president ial elections and more and more senate and house elect test elections. I think the Voting Rights act transforms the energy. Even though Lyndon Johnson died in 1973, the things that get set in motion in 19641969 are going to be sustained because their people after him, they are voting to sustain what he put in place. The core of it is essentially still in tact and impacts everybody on a daily basis. Also joining us for this discussion is joe califf on a worked with the president on this time and the author of the book, the triumph and tragedy of Lyndon Johnson. Both of you gentlemen, thank you very much. Now look back to august 6 19 65. We go to the u. S. Capitol to hear president johnson speak their rotunda. [applause]