Going to talk a little bit about Civil Military relations. Last time we met we talked about the cold war and the development of containment. Korea was an unusual situation in that it had been a colony of japans since 1910, during the Second World War there was fighting in korea, the u. S. And the soviet union jointly occupied korea and they agreed to divide korea. Now, northern korea, that is what we call today north korea was very much communist influenced. Southern korea, which we now call south korea was a very different situation. With the assistance of the u. N. They sponsored elections in south korea and South Koreans elected a democratic government. North korea, however, wanted to unite under its terms and so it sent inser jents into south korea to try and overthrow that government and they failed to do so. Then, in january of 1950, the u. S. Secretary of state dean ach inson made a significant error. In a speech talking about the areas of influence and positions that were vital to the United Statess interest, he mentioned japan and the philippines and omitted south korea. The North Koreans interpreted that as a statement that the u. S. Wouldnt go to war to defend south korea and so in june of 1950, armed with soviet equipment and aided by the chinese, the North Koreans invaded south korea and as you can see from our map, they stormed right across the border. The south koreas were largely caught offguard and unprepared. The u. S. Had military forces in japan under our far eastern commander douglas macarthur. The problem was that those troops and their units were badly under strength, the troops were badly trained and the equipment they had was carry oefrz from world war ii. It wasnt useful for them. We quickly threw over some forces, the saddest episode was task force smith. Task force smith was a unit, a weak battalion that was commanded by a guy name Charles Smith who had extensive combat experience. He occupied a position and the soviet built tanks roared right through it. One guy fired fired a bazooka 22 rounds pointblank into soviet made tanks and they bounced off. Needless to say that was disconcerting for the troops, the tanks passed through eventually north korean infantry came through and smiths people were compelled to retreat. Soldiers fell back and occupied a position in blue here on the map that we call the pusan perimeter. There well able to stable things with american troops, republic of korea troops and foreign powers troops. When the invasion took place, harry truman presented the issue to the United Nations. Fortunately for the United States at the time the soviet union was boycotting the ucht n. They were boycotting it because the peoples republic of china which had gained its had been secured in 1949 was not admitted to the u. N. And so what happened was the soviets boycotted and the u. S. Was able to get it passed through the u. N. , first a statement of condemnation for the act of aggression by north korea and military forces from u. N. Nations to help protect and defend south korea. All told, 21 nations sent either troops or personnel with expertise to aid the war effort. So its actually a United Nations expedition but it was placed under the overall command of douglas macarthur. He, of course, was a great world war ii hero. He was actually a world war i hero so people felt really good about having macarthur in charge. Fortunately were able to stabilize our position barely at pusan and slowly build up our forces. The 8th army was commanded by walker. He was a Corp Commander in pattons army. Hes a really experienced sbat soldier and a very fine officer. Macarthur however came up with a concept to crush the North Koreans. His idea was that walker in the pusan perimeter would launch an attack out meanwhile he would launch an Amphibious Landing at inchan the port area for seoul. The object was to seize seoul and cutoff the North Koreans. The problem was multiple. Inchan has between 29 and 35 36 foot tide differentials. So, you know higher than this ceiling at high tide, below our floor at low tide. Thats a huge tidal difference and that makes a dramatic difference when youre trying to land. Secondly, youve got mud flats at low tide that extent 6,000 yards. 6,000 yards. So theyre going to have thats four miles and of course Landing Craft and ships and tanks are going to get stuck in the mud so youre not going to be able to land at low tied. There are numerous islands en route that youll have to occupy. As you advance, the waterways are really rough in the wintertime so youve got to make sure the landing take place before the winter comes on. Next, theres a four to five island and welmedo has to be taken or you cant get in. Theres a sea wall and the sea wall enters right at the port. So you have to get over the sea wall. Then on top of that the city begins right on top of the sea wall. So as soon as you enter into inchon youre involved in urban warfare so its very difficult fighting in that regard. And then of course there were always the question about whether the troops at pusan could actually break out. We were so under strength that we had the 7th Infantry Division from the u. S. Army. We merged two marine corp divisions to makeup a Single Division now the first division. Those of you who are in this class, of course, Read Dog Company six and simmons was in the First Marine Division and landed at inchon as you certainly know. What they did was, they designated the tenth corp seventh infantry and the First Marine Division to go in and of course in classic macarthur fashion he pulled it off. What you will discover if you study the career of macarthur, when hes good, he is the best. When he is bad, he is the worst. And in this instance, macarthur was at his best. The inchon landing is brilliant. He pulled it out. Pulled it off. Strangely enough, when we came to the pusan perimeter, we had more troops in the pusan perimeter than the North Koreans had so when walker attacked the North Koreans showed resistance but eventually broke. Many people thought as soon as we landed in inchon and secured our way into seoul that the north korean army would collapse but, in fact, it resisted pretty well but ultimately it was forced to fall back. Eventually, let me go to the first slide so you can see that again. Oops. As the North Koreans began falling back, there was a big debate as to whether we should pass the 38th parallel. Remember the objective was to restore south korea and thats what the u. N. Authorized and that was the 38th parallel but when the u. N. Authorized it, it placed matters largely in control of the United States. And macarthur in charge. So the u. S. Was largely calling the shots, although a number of other nations had military personnel who were risking and losing their lives in this adventure. We elected to let them cross over and macarthur saw this as a great opportunity. What he now wanted to do was unite the two koreas and he began pushing forward. The North Koreans retreated farther north, the americans began advancing. Macarthur made a critical area. He pulled out the tenth corp and sent it around by water to won san which is marked on this map here. But by then the republic of korea troops had already passed won san and cleared it. So those troops came in. Further more, its very mountainous. Koreas very mountainous so what happened was the troops got disbursed and compartmentalize. They got split up as they advanced into north korea. Now, macarthur was euphoric. He was anticipating victory by getting the victory and getting the troops back home at christmas time and he was exceedingly optimistic about this sort of thing. Unfortunately things didnt work out that way. Americans were worried that the chinese might get involved. And they kept questioning macarthur, questioning macarthur, i talked to a former hes now deceased fourstar general who went over with the chief of staff of the army joe collins. And they went and met with macarthur and the entire time macarthur paced back and forth and lectured to them about what had gone on and how successful this was going to be and what was going to happen and they couldnt get questions in. And finally macarthur broke the meeting off and they they started leaving. This is the chiefofstaff of the United States army and collins turned to general bolty and he said, you know what the problem is . He still sees us at captains because they were captains when macarthur was chiefofstaff of the army and he still saw himself as their boss when, in fact, that wasnt the case. Collins was his boss. He just didnt get it. And so he pushed farther and farther north. By october, they began to see the presence of chinese troops and all of a sudden they came in huge, huge numbers and by november, we were struck, we were isolated, they picked on various pockets of troops and we were rouded and we began a steady retreat southward. The retreat wasnt mayhem, it was organized. They were systematic as they fell back and then an unfortunate accident occurred, Walton Walker was killed in a jeep accident and he was replaced by an absolutely extraordinary soldier named matthew ridgeway. Ridgeway had been an Airborne Division commander in world war ii, he had a great reputation as a soldier. Everyone admired him so having ridgeway there was a real asset. You can see how close we actually got. There were troops who made it to the yalu river. Its the boundary between north korea and the peoples republic of china. So we advanced way in. Those troops the people at the chosen reservoir, that was general simmons in his book dog company six. They were chosen reservoir. Really one of the most horrific experiences in American Military history. So you see how far north they advanced but when the chinese came, they came in with such staggering numbers that we simply couldnt hold them back. Eventually ridgeway was able to call a halt and launch a counter attack oops. Keep going the wrong way. And push back across the 38th parallel. What ridgeway did was really interesting. First of all, he upgraded fire power. You cannot compensate for Chinese Manpower with equal manpower. You just cant compete with the chinese when it comes to numbers of people. So you have to compensate with fire power and thats what he did. He upgraded the fire power of u. S. Military. That proved a real boon. He also adopted what we call fight and roll. They would fight vigorously punish the enemy and then follow back to the next defense position and each time punish the enemy and fall back to a defensive position. Very skillfully done, saving american lives and u. N. Lives and punishing the enemy. He got people off the roads. If troops were on the road theyre easy targets for the enemy. You get them off the road. And lastly, he began night fights. Night fighting. Americans are not really that keen on night fighting and ridgeway forced them to do it and it proved to be really successful. So ridgeway really left a mark, a positive mark and he was able to restore the 38th parallel technically, as you can see from the truce line, while were below the 38th parallel on the western part, most of the most of korea were above the 38th parallel and what we did was we occupied positions that were really strong defensively. But they had made it clear not to try and conquer north korea. Now, macarthur meanwhile was grumbling all along. One of the most interesting things to realize is that macarthur had not been in the United States in 12 years. He was completely detached from his homeland. And as a result of that he really didnt have a good feel for what was going on in American Life and society. As a result of that, macarthur had curried favor with the republican party. He wanted to run for political office, maybe even be elected president of the United States and he was trying to gain favor with republicans. So he regularly communicated with republican politicians. Unfortunately, he kept challenging the Truman Administration policies and thats where he really ran afoul. First of all, he gave a talk for the vfw in which he opposed the Truman Administrations policy with regard to formosa. Youre a general, the president is the commander in chief. The president formulates the policies. Macarthur didnt care. The joint chiefs of staff instructed macarthur under no Uncertain Terms are you to allow nonkorean troops to reach the yalou river. Macarthur allowed nonkorean troops to reach the yalou river. Joint chiefs of staff specifically macarthur as well as the president not to bomb over the bridges because youre fearful of killing chinese civilian or chinese soil. What the joint chiefs of staff and the president of the United States did not want to do is expand this into a world war. They understood firmly that the u. S. Principal responsibility was going to be nato. Was going to be europe. We needed to defend western europe. And by getting dragged into a war in asia that was exactly what the soviet union would want. Because then wed be distracted from our principal mission. Perhaps one of the more unfortunate episodes, though, was Truman Administration notified macarthur on the 20th of march, 1951 that it was about to release terms for negotiation, that they were drafting them. On the 24th of march, macarthur announced his terms for negotiation and he undercut the Truman Administration and what he did was, he made it clear that there would be no link between korea and formosa which really upset the Truman Administration but truman was stuck with what macarthur had announced. He violated what the Truman Administration called for. December of 1950, truman reminded, had issued an order, quote, to make no announcements on policy without government concurrence, end quote. Truman reminded macarthur of that statement that came out of the department of defense and of course in classic macarthur fashion he completely ignored it. Then joseph martin, the House Minority leader wrote to macarthur and sent him a speech that he had given in which he was in which he argued if the United States was not going to be in if for full victory then the Truman Administration should be indicted for the murder of thousands of american men. And asked macarthur to comment on that. Macarthur wrote back, and this was read in the halls of congress, quote, my views and recommendations with respect to the situation created by red chinas entry into the war against us in korea have been submitted to washington in most complete detail. Generally these views are wellknown and generally understood as they follow the conventional pattern of meeting force with the maximum counterforce as we have never failed to do in the past. Your view with respect to the utilization of the Chinese Forces on formosa is in conflict with neither logic or tradition. It seems strangely difficult for some to realize that here in asia is where the communist conspiraciers have elected to make their play for global conquest and that we have joined the issue thus raised on the battlefield. That here we fight europes war with arms while diplomats there fight it with words. That if we lose this war, the fall of europe is inevitable. Win it and europe most probably would avoid war and yet preserve freedom. As you point out we must win. There is no substitute for victory. That letter was read on the floor of the house of representatives, of course the president was furious and what he did was he called in the secretary of defense and secretary of state, had conversations with them. They decided that they wanted the joint chiefofstaff involved so they brought in omar bradley. You recall that he was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff during the revolt of the admirals and you remember what he had said . That is, anyone recall what he had said . [ inaudible ]. Open rebellion open rebellion against civil authority. And hes the same chairman of the joint chiefs of staff again and he made it clear he was bothered by it but he wanted to consult the joint chiefs. The next day he did so and then they all came back for another meeting and presented the joint chiefs of staff, they were unanimous in their statement that macarthur should be removed. Maushd agreed, the secretary of state agreed and as a result truman removed macarthur. What you have are pretty flagrant violations of what we call Civil Military relations. Theres omar bradley. Missouriion, like eric. Lets talk about Civil Military relations. First of all, all of you have read the u. S. Constitution. What does it say about the president s power . [ inaudible ] and command them but lets see and hes in charge of the militia and the navy and he can call them only when theyre in Actual Service of the United States. Hes commander in chief, right . What does that mean . Hes in charge. What responsibilities does the congress have . Abe . Theyre elected to [ inaudible ] and also raise ma leasha. And establish regulations. Congress declares war. Congress declares war, correct. So clearly truman has the right to issue order and establish patrol siz and macarthur, whats his responsibility in this . Mya . He has to listen to them. He has to listen to them and obey them, right . Hes got to obey them. So what has he done . Has he violated Civil Military relations . Where do we even get this concept . Is it exclusively the constitution . Those of who denton you were in last semester, where do you first see Civil Military relations as were talking about . You can date it to the size of armds, the high middle ages in england and to the english sort of hesitation to allow a Standing Army particularly after the english civil war. Thats right. And what about George Washington . Emma. You know all about old jorge. He earn couraged good relations between congress and his army. Thats exactly right. He was very careful not to exceed what he thought was proper behavior for an army officer. What was his justification for that . Brook . What was why did washington why was washington so careful about not transguessing the responsibilities of the politicians . Because he understands that the politicians and the army are in a sort of feedback mode and if you cause problems with one then the other he can cause problems across the board and disrupt the whole system. Okay. Anyone else . Come on. Erin . He didnt the whole reason for the revolution is that they didnt want a monarchy and if he were to surpass his role and step on the toes of politicians, then thats pretty much what hed be doing. Yeah. Hes very sensitive that we dont have some kind of ar stock rasy, no dictatorship. He wanted to make it always clear that the military took their orders from the political leaders. And that it was his responsibility to execute those orders to the best of his ability and to advise them, but when they issued the orders to obey those orders. So we go all the way back to washington in the United States, even actually back to the brits that we inherited and of course were very sensitive to this. But here comes the complications. How do you get into a military academy . Has anyone here applied for admission . How do you get in . You have to be nominated by a congressman, senator or vice president. You got to be nominated by a politician, in other words. So say you had been nominated by a politician, wouldnt you feel beholden to that politician . Probably so. One of my recent ph. D. S, the congressman who nominated him theyve been friends ever since the congressman has no longer serves but theyre still friends. And, in fact, my army officer buddy was invited to go to the congressmans wedding. Because theyre such Close Friends over the years. I mean you just you build a rapport. These people made an important decision that was critical for your career and you feel beholden to them. Back in the 19th century, you remember all these politicians had connections. Even guys like grant had connections in politics. You cant really accept when youre a general officer. Further more, when you get these positions you get appointed by the president of the United States, right . Do you have to be ratified by congress . Yeah, you do. You do. And when you go before them and they ask you, if i ask you a question, do you will you guarantee me that you will always speak truthfully and you know youre not going to get confirmed if you dont say, yes, senator. So that puts you in a bind. What happens when the president says one thing issues you a directive and you personally feel that thats a bad decision and then in front of congressional testimony they ask you about that. If you lie, theyre going to be livid. If you tell the truth, youre going to alienate your president. So what do you do . What would you do andrea . I have no idea. You dont know . Come on. You can take charge. What would you do . Id probably stay loyal to the president , i guess. I think i think what you will stay loyal to the president , but youll do it in a clever way. Yes, sir. So for example, say you want a weapons system and the president the administration decides that its too expensive but you really want it and the congressman says to you in front of in testimony sworn under oath, would you like that Weapon System and what you say is, yeah, id like that weapons system. Id like lots of different Weapon Systems but we live in a real world where we dont have unlimited funds. And so we cant get everything that we would like. Thats how you answer it. That way youre telling the truth to both parties, right . And respecting the decision of your bosses. See, how squooshy this world is . Now, what do you do if you were a general officer or any officer and the president of the United States issues you an order and you find it morally reprehensible but its not illegal . What would you do . No one has an answer. You can request a transfer so you receive a commission to go [ inaudible ] didnt believe in the war in iraq so he asked not to serve. He asked to stay in the reserved force so thats an option to [ inaudible ] theres also if you really believe its morally reprehensible you can refuse the orders. If you find it morally reprehensible but youll suffer the consequences unless you can demonstrate that the order is illegal youre going to suffer consequences. Now some people think that you have no right to resign if youre a military officer, that your job is to simply execute all legal orders, youre not entitled to an opinion on those matters. Can you buy that . In the what do you think . Its the oath you take as an officer. Speak louder. Thats the oath you take as a commissioned officer in the military. You obey the orders of the president and the officers appointed over you so whether or not you think its wrong, if theres no law if its a lawful order then you are required to obey it. Thats right. Thats right. But then we can bring in guys like our man eric who is an mco. Eric what did you do when you received an idiotic order from a lieutenant or captain . I mean do it, obviously. You did it . If not make it look like you did. Nice. Surely you got some . Surely i what . Surely you got some idiotic orders. Theres no shortage of those, absolutely. No shortage. So you see how complicated this world is. Hes exactly right. You take the oath to obey all lawful orders. Theres something to be said for that. Back in the 19th century and actually even into the 20th century, some individuals didnt think that it was right to cast a vote. So Zachary Taylor until he was nominated for president had never voted in his life because he thought im a career army officer, i simply obey the government whoevers in power and i shouldnt have an opinion on these matters. I should simply execute the orders. And when, in fact, they approached him, he said to them, well, tell me what your party stands for, what are your issues . He didnt even know the issues between the Democratic Party and the whig party. And once they tolds him, i guess im whig, so they nominated him for president and he got elected. So its a very strange world, isnt it . What do you think about these matters . Youre going to be an army officer, right . I think take that oath, you got to do whats handed down to you. I think youre absolutely right. You have to execute the orders. Theres not much you can do about it. So its a complicated world and its a very difficult one for lots of military people, because sometimes these orders will challenge you to your to your heart and soul, your very moral fiber is being tugged on, because you disagree with it. When i was at west point shortly after the first after the second gulf war, the invasion of iraq broke out, a lot of the Army Officers there were bothered by this, because the u. S. Doesnt start wars. We dont invade countries and they felt like when they entered the military, they took an oath but there was a tasset agreement that the u. S. Government would utilize them for sensible for important causes and sensible causes and many of them felt like they were being put in combat in a situation that really didnt warrant invasion. Now, they all of them obeyed it but it bothered them. So you see how Civil Military relations can be so complicated and so difficult from a moral standpoint. Anybody have any questions about Civil Military relations . You guys are awfully quiet today. Youre intimidated by the cameras. I understand. Yeah . So if you decided that you didnt agree on a moral standpoint, would that be when you would like call yourself a Conscientious Objector or is that Something Different . Well Conscientious Objector usually are opposed to war morally, period. I think thats really usually the case. Yeah . In the case that you found something morally reprehensible as an officer or as an enlisted person but you also believe that it was illegal, what would be the procedure you would go through in order to prove the case . Find where its illegal and if its not expressly dictated as illegal then yeah, the law is the law. Yeah. You would have to demonstrate you could go to a jag officer and present evidence that this is an illegal order and i cant i cant obey it and the jag officer will look at it and either tell you execute or youre going to the jail or the brig or, yeah, youre right. That is an unlawful order. Yeah . [ inaudible ] when he thats so interesting. Macarthur got fired, came back home to the United States and went on tour around the United States giving speeches in uniform opposing the Truman Administration and presenting his side of the situation and insisting that this was the right war for world war iii. And of course, congress then held hearings and took testimony from numerous individuals and perhaps the most famous statement came from none other than omar bradley, this is the wrong time for the wrong fight in the war place. And theres a lot to be said for that and the justification, once again, was that our primary mission was protection of europe. And we didnt want to get embroiled in a huge war against the peoples republic of china. You remember that great movie Princess Bride and they talk about the second stupidest thing in the world is to get in a land war in asia. Did macarthur ever seriously pursue [ inaudible ]. I think it became clear when he came back that he didnt really have the support that he was hoping. Remember, he had a parade, a ticker tape parade in new york city and 7 million came out to cheer him. This is after this debacle. And when eisenhower came home from world war ii, only 3 million cape back to cheer him. Now did eisenhower feel snubbed . I cant speak to that. But it shows you that macarthur had a lot of support but as the evidence came out, people realized that macarthur really overstepped his bounds and he did. Of course there was talk about utilizing Nuclear Weapons against china. This was a pretty tense situation. Was the media more involved in these in unraveling the narrative from the macarthur or was the government the Truman Administration, the cia, the department of defense the government more responsible for this . Uncovering what macarthur was saying. Macarthur made it public himself. There was one episode where the ap picked up information from macarthurs headquarters about things that he was planning that were in violation of jcs rules. It wasnt media investigation that uncovered this. It was macarthur doing it pretty openly. Hes pretty flagrant about this sort of thing. To get troops for korea, did the u. S. Just carry over the peace time draft from the late thats a very interesting issue and im glad you raised it because its a ticklish one. First they recalled all sorts of reservist. People were coming home from world war ii, and you dont know if youve got a job or not, why dont you come into the reserves, youll get paid, you sign up for five years, well give you a monthly stipend, youre a combat veteran, you really dont need to worry about training or anything and most of these guys, theyre five year tours were about to expire when all of a sudden the korean war broke out and they got recalled to active duty. So these were first they brought in lots of world war ii veterans and they were disgruntled. After about a year they rotated those guys out and they brought in draftees, and they were younger people who were better trained, the old guys had combat experience but they had gone to seed in the five years since they left. You go all those years without beers and you get an opportunity, you know what happens . You go after it and many of them had children, had gotten married since then. It was a much more complicated scenario for them. Whereas of the 18, 19yearolds who were being drafted, they were properly trained and much more fit physically and they were sent overseas for combat. You saw a significant actually a significant improvement in the units. In addition to that, you have integration issues. They began to integrate but they did it slowly and as a result when you started getting replacements in korea, you couldnt sort them out so you started plugging in troops regardless of race into various units. So for example, the 24th infantry regiment which is an army unit which traditionally africanamerican. It desegregated literally in korea. They started putting white guys in and lots of other white units started getting lots more black soldiers. So i think as i recall, dont bet the house on this, 20 of all troops in the coming into the army around that time period were africanamericans so you saw a significant integration of military forces literally in combat in korea and so that was a real positive step. As you learn from the battle of the bulge when black soldiers waived rank to serve in infantry units because they desperately needed the manpower, fox holes race just does not matter. Youre just glad to have a good soldier next to you. It doesnt matter race, gender, anything. You just want somebody whose reliable. There was also that line theres no age eists in fox holes. Yeah . Commissioned officers in the u. S. Military also swore and oath to uphold the constitution, if theres an order thats given to them thats conducted that is perhaps unconstitutional, examples of this might be the expansion of bombing into cambodia under the nixon administration, what is their obligation that the military officers have . That is a tough one. Tough one. What would do you . Youre going to be in the army. What would you do . If you know that Congress Passed a law outlawing bombing in a certain area and they order you to go in and bomb in that area or say youre a helicopter pilot to convey american troops into that area when you know congress has forbidden it. Sitting here in an academic standpoint and looking at it, i would obviously say that you wouldnt because it would be illegal and, but in this scenario, people that really were into the war and you cant really tell how you would act in the situation. I think theres a different culture in that war. That is a superb answer. Youring exactly right. Youre in a very difficult predicament. Your boss orders you to do it, you know its coming down from way up on high, you know its illegal but everyones counting on you and then, say, youre a really good pilot. If you pass on it or youre really good at whatever you do and you say im not going to do it and they let old joe whose mediocre do it and some of your buddies get killed because he blew it, think about how guilty youd feel, so what do you do . Do you take it on . Your bosses have ordered you to do it and you know if you do it, you can probably save some lives. These are tough choices in life. Big moral issues. Anyone else have any questions or comments about this stuff . Yeah . Going back to the pusan perimeter u. S. Had more troops, what were the numbers . I cant tell you off the top of my head but i can get back to you on that. How many troops are actually coming in from china relative to the u. S. Forces . The pusan perimeter, Chinese Forces arent in. [ inaudible ]. Ive got statistics on the korean war that are pretty staggering. Nope. I didnt bring them. But i brought casualty statistics that i will read to you next class. As i recall off the top of my head we lose about 33,000 americans killed in korea. Of course the loss of republic of korea, North Koreans, chinese are staggering, staggering. Remember we just upgraded our fire power dramatically and we were really punishing them. Andrew . What do you mean by upgrading fire power . For example, we had bazookas that were world war ii vintage, 2. 36 inch then we upgraded them to 5 inch. Larger rounds, better penetration. One of the interesting things i know this sounds harsh but the object is to fire these these rounds and had them penetrate the outer skin and bounce around in the side and explode in there. The quality of the soviet steel was so bad that it passed right through the tank and came out the backside before they exploded. So we were upgraded in that way and other equipment. Why was that still [ inaudible ]. What was going on was we were re we were trying to expend the excess world war ii ammunition and finish using the world war ii equipment. Is there any attempt by the previous [ inaudible ] whats going on is trar trying to save money, theyre trying to come back on defense expenditure because theyve gone through the roof. In the korean wars expenditures increased four fold so thats a huge increase but prior to that, remember we talked about the revolt of the admirals, theyre trying to cut the Defense Budget and they do so by eliminating a surprise carrier. And each of the services suffered pretty heavy losses, maybe 300 million, stuff like that, marine corp a little less but the three major services. [ inaudible ] how did the increase of staff, the support staff, people not on the front lines was that a big part of like whats changing in Civil Military relations . Not so much well of course you mean civilian staff or military personnel who arent carrying weapons . Military personnel. Its a steady process. We keep decreasing the tip of the spear in effect, making it smaller and smaller because we need so much support for everything that we do. Its i mean you go to the civil war era virtually everybody in a regiment fights, virtually everybody in the Division Fights by the time you get to world war ii, you know, in a division of 15,000, 3,500 do the fighting and the other 11,500 are in some way shape or form supporting those 3,500. So you see a monumental shift just in that time period. Ive heard the korean war referred to as a forgotten war. Yeah. Did people view it as we were protecting the South Koreans there was a lot of grumbling when reservist got recalled because people were upset but truman had worked people into a little bit of frenzy about this communist takeover so the American Public generally supported the war. It was easy to justify and remember theres a faith or at least a hope that the u. N. Will be that the u. N. Will be something really successful. By our time now were kind of jaundiced about the u. N. , what it can and cant do and what it does well and what it doesnt do well. But i think there were a level of optimism that the u. N. Could be utilized as the institution that could protect from these acts of aggression. And heres where we have to start the process. And so i think that makes a big difference in peoples lives. Yeah. Using our old world war ii crafts, were the soviets doing the same thing . They had their old crafts. And the chinese are building up their military with soviet equipment as well. Yeah . [ inaudible ]. They were not combat troops, no. Abe. Examples of officers who found the situation to moral code or law and recuse themselves from that situation theres a classic story during the war where a guy named herled k. Johnson, is fed up with the Johnson Administration policies. And so he gets in his car, and hes driving to the white house to submit his resignation in protest. And he got stuck in traffic in washington. And as he was stuck in traffic he started thinking, well, if i revine and nothing changes than i started wasting things. But i stay in the game i might be able to alter policies and make things better for the troops. And so ultimately convinced himself he was making the right decision and turned his car around and went back to the pentagon. Thats a pretty heavy burden because roughly 68,000 americans lose their lives in vietnam. So its a pretty bad burden to carry. So if we were fighting chinese troops, were we at war with them or what was the official stance . Nope. We were fighting them, they were fighting us, no declaration of war. It was a police action. Yeah . Do the chinese fight under their own standards . Yep. They were chinese troops with chinese equipment, chinese officers, on and on. Remember chinese and koreans dont speak the same language. All right, weve got a few more minutes so let me wrap up the korean war. Ultimately what happened was i know im bad with the clicker. Ultimately they settled in on roughly the truce line, and both sides would attack and thered be fighting back and forth. The big stumbling block was exchange of prisoners of war. Now, i should mention that both south korea and north korea treated the civilian populations in each others countries pretty brutally. But there were those captured as well as chinese who did not want to repatrioted. They did want want to go back north korea. The u. N. Felt like they couldnt force anyone to return home. So that became a huge stumbling block for prisoner exchanges and therefore the troops. When i first got a job at a graduate school i went to fort leavenworth, the combat studies institute. And the guy in the office next to me, jack gifford, had been captured in the korean war and in prison camps. And he told me that they were treated really badly, fed poorly, conditions were bad. And then all of a sudden conditions improved monumentally. And what happened was Joseph Stalin had died. And with stalins death, that opened the door for a negotiated solution. And he said things were wrapped up in no time. And he said it was so obviously something notable had happened, and they were able to connect it to stalins death. Whether it opened to north korea negotiation are read as an opportunity to do this, i dont know. By 1953 as well we had a president ial Election Year and dwight d. Eisenhower was elected president. Eisenhower threatened he would go oerch to north korea personally and use military weapons if necessary to bring this to an end. So i thinkizen hower in the white house andizen howers threats probably brought everyone and ultimately the prisoners were exchanged. But those that did not want to go back did not have to. So anyone have any questions about the korean war . Okay, youre out of here. American history tv is in prime time all week with our original series lectures in history, focusing on college and University Classrooms around the country. On friday well take a look at the civil war including a lecture on Cultural Heritage and confederate monuments. It begins at 8 00 p. M. Eastern here on cspan 3. Also book tv prime time looks at authors who were in congress. Then its James Mcferson on battle cry of freedom, the civil war hero. And after that Elizabeth Rosenthal examines the business side of health care. And Later Supreme Court justice sotemayor talks about her book. As we explore that citys rich history and literary scene with tony bemonti, author of spokane. That led to a silver strike. And it was one of the largest producing silver areas in the United States. And a lot of the mansions and big buildings are all built from the mining. And one of the most significant environmental leaders and father of the National Park system author james hunt talks about his book. James murer was probably one of the most significant environmental thinkers, leaders. Hes basically the protagonist for the National Park system. American history tv features the story of expo 74, one of the first environmental themed world fairs. Spokane was the smallest city ever in the world to host a world fair. But it was the first fair using the environment as a theme. And i believe its 1972, the very first earth day. And theres a great consciousness around the world about environmentism. And it became the theme and arguably the obsession. Saturday at 7 30 p. M. Eastern at cspans book tv. And sunday at 7 00 p. M. Cspan where history unfolds daily. Its brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. Next on lectures in history, Hillsdale College professor teaches a class on 1950s american culture. He describes how postworld war ii society changed due to the baby boom, suburbization and teen culture. His class is about an hour and ten minutes. Today were going to start the third part of this course, the third theme of this course. It says there were three salient developments that characterized the United States after world war ii. The concentration of power and economic life, the continuation of american involvement in Global Affairs and the collapse