Company. Good evening, this is frank. May i introduce our coeditors. Mr. Victor, new yorkbased economist for the new york daily mirror. And are distinguished guest for this evening is mr. Arthur garfield hays. Famed constitutional lawyer and general counsel for the American Civil Liberties union. The opinions expressed are those of the speaker. You as adience knows longtime crusader for human freedom. They will be very interested in your views tonight. We had senator mccarthy on this show a few days ago. Our audience has his views. What is your general appraisal of senator mccarthy and his work . I think he is the most dangerous man in the United States. I think he is more dangerous to the freedom in the United States and all the communists we have in this country. Do you think that he is dangerous because he is attacking communism . I think he is dangerous because without sufficient evidence, he is smearing respected and highly decent people. Do you think there are communists in the state department . Have they infiltrated our government . I dont think they have begun to infiltrate our government. They do not do as much harm as suspicion stirred up by mccarthy. What specific harm do you think senator mccarthy has done . When you smear men like William Jessup and men who have been in Government Service for years, you do a great deal of harm. Used her up hate and suspicion and fear all over the United States. The most dangerous thing the communists can do in the United States is stir up hatred, suspicion and fear. I think anyone doing it is doing as bad a job as they are. Do you think there is any grounds for suspicion and fear among the people of the United States . No reasonable grounds. No man should be deprived of his reputation and standing without a fair trial. Not by the ravings of mccarthy. Dont you think the American People have some reason to suspect there is a state department that harbors people known to be subversive and agents of foreign powers . I dont think the American People have any sound reason to suspect our state department. Sound reason. We are going to separate this from senator mccarthy immediately. On sound reason, we are on the same side. Owen lattimore, is he a danger as a friend of mao zedong . The army that is fighting our own. For 15 years, he has been mao zedongs friend. Dont you think that constitutes a danger to the thinking of our state department . Heard of not think he has done, that Owen Lattimore has done. Frank personalities are very interesting, but senator mccarthys methods, which are the things you most oppose. It is your position that his methods have not been justified . It is. A great Many Americans believe that the one reality of our time is the soviet power and that soviet power is aided in the United States by people who are willing to lend aid to that soviet power. The soviet power in russia is one thing. A soviet power in the United States i do not think exists. You do admit that there are americans who want to make russia more powerful. There have been such americans in our government. Yes, but very few in number. Dont you think that 500,000 americans led by stalinist labor leaders are a menace, especially in the heart of our Defense Industry . Were you get 500,000 stalinists where do you get 500,000 stalinists . The 500,000 americans are members of trade at one time the communists were strong in the cio and then they started playing politics. They were thrown out of the union. They dont deserve the credit. We are going to dismiss that one, too. Dont you think that the organized conspiracies of american stalinism with 43,000 fanatics represents a threat to American Civil Liberties . Mr. Hays no. I do not. I think all those people under areeillance by the fbi potential fifth columnists, but i do not think they are potential spies. I trust the fbi and i trust the law. What you are telling me is we have the right to violate the laws of decency as well as the laws on the statute books in order to get communists. What you are saying is a totalitarian government would be safer than a democratic government. I want to say, i am for decency. I want to make that clear. I thought you are. I buy your argument wasnt sound. You are both for decency, but lets go back to the state department. Dont you think that senator mccarthys message might be justified and the House Unamerican Activities Committee might be justified because of a failure on the part of department of justice . After all the fbi knew of the existence of him. I will grant you his. You cannot base your whole policy on the fact that he was found guilty. One man. Certainly you are not going to take that position. Dont you think that the state department having worked us into this holocaust in the east has failed because of a policy, procommunist policies . Think they let us into the holocaust in the east. What did . The invasion of north korea by the communist. Who was responsible for that . The communist. And he was behind them . Russia. Dont you think it represents a threat to the United States . Yes, but i dont see that in the United States. Im not afraid of the communists in the United States. After 25 years, they cannot get enough votes to keep their name on the ballot. This idea of finding communists hiding under the bed is all nonsense. The result is that americans are so timid about expressing themselves that we have practically given up democratic methods and free speech. No one dares to say anything that might suggest to anyone that he is an appeaser or prorussian or anything else. We do not find any debate in public life. Believer inral and human freedom, you abhor that americans do not utilize that liberty as they once did . That is the end of free speech. Safer and are a lot healthier if every man says exactly what he believes. To relate your views to the political issues of 1952, where do you stand . I do unless eisenhower was the nominee, i would probably support him. Why . I heard eisenhower speak on democracy and i think his views are what i regard as democratic views. Are trying to get some of we are trying to get some of those views from him and he has refused. Read his speeches. You will find he is opposed to the present hysteria. Things that make us all fearful of communists. He believes the atmosphere of today is very bad. Do you think the general is a liberal or conservative . That is hard to tell. I do not use terms liberal or conservative. Would you vote under the republican ticket . Yes. Under the party of mccarthy . I regard as the party of eisenhower. About senator taft. He is a man who is supposed to have considerable respect for the law. I have respect for senator taft as a man. I think he is able and honest and i like the way he handles himself in general. He is more of a metal machine, and i do not have the same liking or admiration of him personally as i would of eisenhower or truman. As a fighter for human liberty, are you hopeful about the prospects for liberalism in america in 1952 . Yes, i am. I saw it exists in the 20s. The socialists were the target. The party of the left is always the target. Someday we will have a party more radical than the communists, and then the communist will be respectable. Society is becoming fearful because of names. I have the same hope we will reach the same atmosphere in the future, as turned out after the 1920s. Our audience very much appreciates these views. Thank you for being with us. The Editorial Board for this edition of the longines chronoscope was william bradford. Our guest was Arthur Garfield hays, general counsel for the Civil Liberties union. Join us on cspan three this weekend for American History tv. Today at 3 00 p. M. , in honor of the 1957 public broadcasting act, the library of congress hosts a discussion about the history of news and Public Affairs reporting with jim larry. Leher. University of kansas professor randall gell on africanamerican ministers in politics. Sunday at 8 00 a. M. Eastern, recollections of the battle of midway from four World War Ii Navy veterans who took part in the battle. America, dreams of the quality featuring the 1848 womens rights convention. Kansas city, missouri, is known as the city of fountains with over 200 officially registered in the metro area. It could easily be known as the city of boulevards. Here is George Kessler and the developer of the park and boulevard system. Todays park and boulevard system is about 130 miles. Our system today has about 12,000 acres of parkland in the city. That 12,000 acres is within about 310 square miles of kansas city. Ofaddition to that 130 miles parks and