Transcripts For CSPAN3 Secretary Of State Pompeo Testifies At International Narcotics Control... 20240714

The Senate Caucus on International Narcotics control will come to order. Good afternoon everyone. I want to thank secretary pompeo for being here today as well as members of the caucus. To my knowledge, mr. Secretary this is the first time we have had a cabinet member address the drug caucus. And i think, given the circumstances that we find ourselves and events over the last few days make this especially appropriate that we hear from the nations top diplomats. On this important topic. Obviously, the rising global narcotic academic is flicking the highest rate of casualties in our nations history. In america alone, in 2017, more than 70,000 people died of drug overdoses. Im advised that just since 2006, mexico has seen 150,000 people murdered in the course of the cartel violence. Of course associated with marketshare and real estate. When it comes to the International Drug trade. Reflecting on those numbers, it made me think about other National Efforts we have undertaken internationally dealing with not only the threat of terrorism emanating from afghanistan, obviously the war in iraq. And idea the we would lose 70,000 americans in one your loan to drug overdoses and not consider this a matter of National Urgency is really staggering. So we hope to turn that around. In order to break the devastating cycle we need to take a holistic government approach to address supply and demand as well as expand treatment for those suffering from substance abuse. We will focus on supply in particular, the International Sources of narcotics and our nations strategy to prevent them from reaching our borders and infiltrating our communities current effects of our epidemic cannot be overstated. It is not hyperbole to say we have reached a crisis point. In 2018, National Drug assessment reports that drug poisoning deaths remain the leading cause of injury and death in the United States. There currently, as i said, the highest level ever recorded. The 2017 numbers and have outnumbered deaths from firearms, motor vehicles, suicide and homicide. In 2016, 174 americans died every day from drug overdoses. In my home state of texas, we remain severely impacted in terms of the volume of trafficking and all related mayhem that accompanies the illicit activity. The 2017, nearly 3000 texans died of drug overdoses. Approximately half of those are related to opioids with a dramatic increase in synthetic opioid related deaths. The emergence of fentanyl a headache opioid is a significant contributor to and has skyrocketed in prominence over the past 2 years and has been the subject of previous hearings of this caucus. And i know efforts, International Diplomatic efforts by the Trump Administration and by you mr. Secretary of the numbers indicate illicit drugs as well as the transnational and domestic criminal organizations that traffic them represent a significant threat to public health, Law Enforcement and our National Security. The most evident focus of the Senate Caucus on International Second narcotics control is to expand cooperation against drug abuse and narcotics trafficking. Those efforts do not occur in a vacuum. I believe we need a comprehensive National Strategy that will focus both on supply of which we are examining today and demand. That strategy must also take actions against Transnational Criminal Organizations that are running rampant and engaging in a broad range of criminal activities. The cartel, the gulf cartel, and many others maintain a presence, not only in Central America and in mexico but also in my state of texas. They specialize in moving vast amounts of cocaine, heroin, fentanyl and other Illegal Drugs throughout the region. As we know, it isnt just drugs that they are carrying. As one phrased it, recently, he said they are commodity agnostic. In order to traffic drugs and migrants and human beings for sex slavery, Money Laundering, counterfeit goods, you name it, whatever will make them a buck. In the face of all of the violence and trauma the groups feeling the cycle are becoming richer and are growing influence in the United States. And without intervention, their power will only grow. Because we cannot win this fight alone our strategy needs to improve. Our Security Cooperation with International Partners. Particularly mexico. Finally, we must invest in Economic Security and promote a stronger and stable Central America. Secretary pompeo and the experts on our second panel will shed light on the growing narcotics epidemic in our hemisphere and across the globe. I look forward to hearing the testimony and learning how we can Work Together to form a comprehensive, whole Government Strategy that reduces the flow of illicit drugs into the United States and helps keep our citizens safe. With that, let me turn the microphone over to my cochairman, senator feinstein for her opening comments. Thank you very much mr. Chairman. And welcome mr. Secretary. This is the first hearing of our caucus in this congress. I think it is good news that you are here and i look forward to working with you as chairman, senator, and i also want to thank senator grassley for his tenure as chairman. And welcome senator rosen and senator purdue. I think we all know the illicit drug trade in this country is really big business. It is valued at anywhere from 426 to 652 billion. Its reach is global. Its distribution is growing. Its leadership is criminal. Like any business, it adapts to market changes. In this case, u. S. Demand and International Enforcement are the two things, and its motivation is power and profit at any cost. In my state, california, our largest state, the cost was nearly 5000 lives in 2017. In the United States, our states, it was more than 70,000 lives. Globally, the cost only increases. In 2015, the latest year for which the data is available, i cannot get rid of this. It was 450,000 lives. These estimates dont consider the lives lost due to the Violence Associated with this illicit trade. Both in the United States and in the source and transit countries. In fiscal year 2019, this year, 22 countries have been identified as major transit or source countries for illicit drugs. Profits obtained from narcotic production find dangerous cartels, Transnational Criminal Organizations in mexico, china and countries in Central America and south america. And their profit margin is only increasing. Last year, more than 133 thousand pounds of heroin, cocaine, meth, and now fentanyl, where two little grains is enough to kill an individual, were seized in the United States. To date, this year, nearly 101,000 pounds of the substances have already been seized. And we are just halfway through the year. Narcotics production funds the insurgency in afghanistan. The Worlds Largest supplier of illicit opium. The United States does not have a dedicated counter narcotics plan in this country, so i think youre right mr. Chairman, weve got to get cracking and build one that works. The drug trade feels staggering levels of violence and corruption. In mexico, it is estimated, that 1 3 to 1 2 of the 33,000 murders committed in 2018 were related to the Drug Trafficking and organized criminal activity. Only 21 of these cases went to trial. The former head of venezuelas military intelligence was recently arrested in spain on Drug Trafficking charges. On a warrant seized issued by the United States. The global narcotics trade requires us to address both our own demand issue as well as foreign supply. And the state department plays a Critical Role in all of that. In coordinate u. S. And foreign assistance for counter narcotics. There is much to be done. I will stop here and put my full remarks in the record. But thank you so much for being willing to come to the hill and advise us. Hopefully to work with this caucus. Thank you. Thank you senator feinstein. Mr. Secretary, we are grateful as mr. Senator feinstein said and you may proceed with any Opening Statement you would like to make. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. Im really happy to be here. It is an important issue. When you think of the state department it isnt the they first thing that comes to top of mind by inside the organization it is something that is a true priority for us. Im happy to be invited here today. I will be brief because i want to have a good conversation. But you should know that like many of you this is personal for me. I know many people have been impacted by this set of issues. Just last month there were seven that died in a 10 hour period. From a single overdose of cocaine last week laced with fentanyl. We talk about these numbers but we all know that human lives have been touched and families ripped apart by this. The state department has a role here. Many u. S. Government agencies do. Most sold in the state are trafficked into the country from abroad. That is where our talents and skills and the team comes to bear. We have a clear role here. I want to talk about what we are doing and a couple of areas we will dig into further. First we focus on china. Because of the increase in fentanyl. In the last 2 1 2 years in this administration. Purchased online often and delivered directly to users and dealers through the mail and often shipped through mexico as well. Not only the state department but Justice Department and interagency partners have worked with china. Ive had numerous conversations with them on may 1, china fulfilled its pledge to get President Trump to control all fentanyl like substances which potentially number in the thousands of different substances and develop a plan for each of them. We need to work closely with them to followup on these encouraging signs. There should be criminal penalties and i am convinced they will do that. And i am convinced this will shut down labs inside china and we will save lives in the United States. In latin america the problem is a little bit different. In nature, mexico is a production hub for methamphetamine and heroin. Recently as last week, as part of our conversation about migration we touch deeply on how it is that we can work closely together. The joint declaration was mostly focused on aggression but it good deal of the conversation was here point about the traffickers and their desire to move whatever product will bring a market price that causes them to have incentive to continue to do the things that disrupts so many lives here in the United States. Will try to take down the criminal enterprises between all of the elements of the United States government. We have donated equipment to the mexican Law Enforcement security and trained officers to eradicate poppy. We provided sniffing dogs. And as you can see from the data today, many challenges remain. Just a couple words about the rest of the hemisphere. I met with the president on multiple occasions. He continued to pledge a strong support to stop Drug Trafficking and reduce the coca pills. There is a lot left to do. We are working to get the direction, the magnitude of that problem and turn the corner to decrease reduction inside columbia. We have quadrupled the number of civilian eradicate hers alongside them. While the payoff has not yet demonstrated the effect that we would like, columbia has destroyed 60 more in the first part of this year and the same four months of last year. But there is a host of other countries and i have gone on too long. Im happy to take your questions and talk about the other things and i will submit the full statement for the record with your permission, senator. But thank you mr. Secretary. It will be made part of the record without objection. We will start with six minute rounds. And i know the secretary has been very gracious with his time but we want to make sure that we get him out of here in due course. And we also have a second round of illnesses and we have votes this afternoon. So we are going to be kind of busy. Let me just start with this general question. That we talked about a little bit in the interim. As i think about u. S. Government strategies and plans to deal with everything from narcotraffickers to the instability in south america in the sense that i think of plant columbia, that was the one success story, i believe. Even though as you point out, your conversations with the president to deal with the eradication issue is very important and we need to see a reversal of the proliferation of coca in columbia. But are the things that you think we can learn from colombia that we can apply to a broader regional strategy . I know having a Strong Partner as we had during the toughest parts of dealing with colombia and bipartisan congressional support so it did not lapse. With each president ial election. Share with us some general thoughts about that. Those are two important things. First, at the state department, the role is to make sure we find the right partners and it needs to come from the most senior levels. I think we have that in many of the countries that we have described. And working through there, there agencies. Not only on the units United States side as this response is often fragmented. We could be dealing with immigration authorities, local, state and federal Law Enforcement agencies. So there has to be a coordination mechanism so that while there is no Silver Bullet you have all the elements of power, both on the u. S. Side and on the other countryside. Working alongside each other. I think those are the Building Blocks that allow you to deliver. And then what we were successful in colombia as well was to develop a plan that had duration to it. And you talked about needing bipartisan support. That is important because we have elections here every couple of years and we change president s from time to time. And these problems elongate far past any particular administration or any particular congress. And so it does take a level of commitment, consistent resources, consistent priorities inside of the u. S. Bracket see, inside the United States government. So that the efforts that are put in place arent ripped out, turned 180 degrees each time there is a change in leadership or change in congress. Mr. Secretary, that is very helpful. Obviously in terms of our relationship with mexico, aiken i also think about the initiative which i know we will hear about from the other witnesses. Some people will say, what we need to send more money to Central America. But to me, that is putting the cart in front of the horse. We need to actually have a plan and to be able to tell the American People that, yes, we are sending assistance to these countries, but it is targeted. We have a good way to follow the money and make sure it is not being stolen. And it is being used for the intended purposes. And yes, we have a plan in place in tricks to use to measure the success. One of the things that has been discussed is the possibility of a special envoy for this region. Can you tell us within the context of the state department and your experience with the sheriff executive branch of government, do you think Something Like the special envoy for this region would be something that we should consider and continue our discussions about . When you say that, do you mean respect to the side of issues . Yes. Is has to candle a broadside of issues, sort of like a plant colombia but more broadly for the region. Is that what you are thinking of . Yes. You know id have to think it through. I do think, and youve seen the state department where we had particular problems that we prioritize. Identify someone to pin the rose on, so to speak. Someone who had both the authority and the responsibility and accountability connected to bringing all the elements of particular. So that might make sense here. Each of the elements of the United States government has a delivery, a deliverable associated with the metrics that you described. We need to lay out. They need to be on board with that. It could just be a state Department Special envoy, someone who had the scope and capacity to command all of the resources connected to this problem sets. If we could achieve that, it might well make sense. I hope we can continue the conversation with you and other members of the administration about how to accomplish that. The best way to deal with that. I wonder, even though your negotiations yours and the Vice President with the Mexican Foreign minister here recently, conversations that youve had with the president have been mainly focus on the migration issue. I have been struck of someone who shares a 1200 mile common border with mexico. I have followed mexico for my entire career. And i have never seen mexican officials appear to step up and engage as it looks like they are doing now on the Central American migration issue. And i wonder if you could just comment on that, because i think if that is real, and if it is enduring, that could be transformational in terms of our relationship. Not only with mexico but dealing with all of these issues in mexico and Central America. So could you give us general thoughts about what has changed. And how did we get here . And how do we get more of that cooperation . Yeah, i have been at this for 2 and half years in my previous role, i had connection to working on the tcos. But in this role, ive been involved in migration issue, at least at the diplomatic level. Working between the two countries to set up policies are lots of other elements of the United States government they have an important and indeed dispositive role. You know, when the president raised the specter of the tariff, we made more progress in the course of a couple days then we had been able to make over the course of the preceding, goodness, i guess ive been secretary of state for almost a year and three months now. I think it focused the attention of all of us and made us were willing to set up true matter, deliverables and a set of policies that im hopeful will deliver on the outcome i am convinced that the president wants and President Trump wants. To stem the flow of illegal migration which has a secondary benefit of reducing the capacity for these traffickers to move drugs. As well, the topic of our gathering today. I think it is something the president made clear to me and his team in the course of goodness, what 2 1 2 days of discussions we had with them. They were serious about allowing us to do some things but they wouldnt let us do that before with respect to the mbp, the migration protocols. Now the task is to deliver that. The task is for both governments Work Together. I spoke with my foreign secretary counterpart again this morning and im confident we will continue to talk on a near daily basis to make sure that we can execute what both countries committed to at the end of last week when we were together. It will benefit both countries. Without a team being dispatched to guatemala this evening to work on another element of this plan over the next couple days and we will move to the northern triangle to try to get a regional approach to stem the traffickers, to stem the flow of illegal migration through mexico into the United States. It will be all about the execution and the will and capacity creation that needed to take place. Im convinced we are demonstrated that last week. As he pointed out migration and Drug Trafficking are arguably distinct issues. But they do overlap here. And talking about our relationships. But as part of the troll has told us, when they are overwhelmed by this mass influx of humanity coming across our ports of entry, officers and Border Patrol have to be assigned different duty to take care of children and families and the drug cartels to exploit the chaos and uncertainty to move more of their poison into the United States. So i think it is impossible to separate them entirely. But thank you for your response to that. Senator feinstein. Thank you very much mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, for fiscal year 19, 22 countries were identified as ager drug transit or drug producing countries. These are primarily located in central and south america. As well as asia. Given its limited counter narcotics budget, how can state help determine where to concentrate efforts as well as our efforts . Senator, that is an excellent question. So we try, not only during each budget cycle, as were presenting proposal to you for the budget, but throughout the year as were watching. We try to set priorities. To the point senator cornyn made, we are trying to deliver the best value for each dollar we spend and find the best place where we can have the most impact. Being mindful too, there are times where the impact is immeasurable in the immediate run. There was a buildup period and you have to create capacities inside of some of these countries that dont have them. I think you can look to not only our budget request as a measure of where our priorities, not only within each country, but within the various tools. Not just the state department was but the tools that are at cbp and the monies that are requested for all the other agencies involved in the set of issues to see how we think about approaching the problem sets. Next question. Honduras, el salvador, and guatemala. There a few of the countries identified as major transit countries for illicit narcotics, destined for us, the United States. In light of the recent decision to reduce United States assistance to these countries, how will the state department reduce the flow . Ive been thinking about doing we did plan colombia several years ago. In many ways, its been a success. Its been costly. I think the numbers are up to 10 billion now. But weve got real problems in Central America. And ive been wondering, what might we do in a planned Central America that would provide the incentives for the changes that we need to restore the coffee industry, to preventive drugs from developing, to prevent some of the cartels and terrible things that are happening there, as well as people feeling that they have no alternative but to leave. Treasury department taken a look at this . Do you have any thoughts as to whether he planned Central America might be viable if we were able to do the right things . Senator feinstein, im not sure we have something that we would call he planned Central America but there has been a lot of work done at the state department on this issue. Look, the president ordered cessation on the fiscal year 17 funding going there. We carved out two significant sensor program, the drg program and dhs programs related to many of the issues were talking about. Because we felt they were important. I must say, we are continuing to look at each of them too, to figure out, we have been at this to your point about colombia, we have been at this for a long time. And the charts that we showed today demonstrate that we havent gotten where we all want to be. I suppose one could argue it would be worse had we not done it. Perhaps that is the case but they have not delivered the outcomes that these programs were pitched on. So we are trying to figure out, to your point, what are the right incentives. It may vary by each of the northern triangle countries. What are the right incentives to put in place so the countries themselves, the people in those countries and leadership will conclude there is another way. A different way for people to earn a living and there is a different enforcement mechanism that these countries can withstand and have the capacity for. If the chairman would agree, would you agree to share some of this material with the caucus so we may be able to take a look at it . Yes, maam. Certainly what. I would be happy to have the true experts in our organization who are thinking about this every day, come down and talk to you about how their thinking about what the approach might look like. In 2019 and beyond. That would be very helpful. How you determine where to concentrate your efforts . What criteria do you use . So i think, senator feinstein it may have been you and your Opening Statements talking about how dynamic this is. I will give you the case of fentanyl. While it is not new, it is newer. And some of these older challenges and the source in china, while not new is newer too. If you would ask about this when we were dealing with these when plan colombia was created, wed have a different priority. Plans get set in place and then the bad guys move more quickly than we do. They adapt. We dont always have the right tools. We should plan for that change as well and build into our plan sufficient flexibility that can respond. When we think about priorities today, we think weve got if you just look at the loss of life, the impact on families here in the United States today, you know, fentanyl is near the top of the list. And we also think we have a partner with whom we can engage and have a serious conversation about how to take down a substantial piece of that risk. So weve put a lot of effort working with china to try to stop it at its source. Were not there yet. Theres a lot of execution that still has to go into it. But we have a real commitment, not only at the most senior levels, which is important and necessary, but as we work through the levels of government there who will actually be tasked with executing that, weve seen literally in the last several weeks a real commitment to working towards getting this right outcome. It will take time. This wont be next week or even next month. But im so you asked the question quite simply. We try to put a focus on the thing that can reduce the cost to the United States, cost in lives, cost in all the other dimensions the most quickly for the fewest resources and focus those resources on essentially the highest return projects at least as we can identify them. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Senator grassley. Im going to refer to a letter i sent to state homeland security, fbi, and department of defense. It was in regard to an interview you gave in which you confirmed theres active hezbollah cells in venezuela, and of course everything going on in venezuela is just something that gets our attention very quickly. Hezbollahs proximity or venezuelas proximity to our border increases their scope of influence and also allows other foreign adversaries like china, russia, and iran to strengthen their existing power hubs. When looking at global counternarcotics, its nearly impossible to ignore the effect of Drug Trafficking organizations, Transnational Criminal Organizations, and terrorist groups. In fact, by many accounts, state weakness and powerful criminal organizations are a direct result of Drug Trafficking. So my first question, what role does hezbollah play in organized Drug Trafficking . What other related criminal and terrorist activity exists as a result of money generated by trafficking drugs . You bet. So the answer to your first question is i wouldnt put it at the top of the list in terms of bad actors and volume for drugs. Thats not the case. But they are active in venezuela and in the trizonal region there in south america. They are active. It is mostly a moneymaking enterprise. That is, it is designed to generate revenues for hezbollah and its activities, which are largely conducted to help them make payroll throughout the middle east, but senator grassley, to your point, all the negative followons from that activity flow through those regions. All the things that hang around the trafficking, the violence, all the issues that surround Business Enterprises that center on narcotics flow exist as a result of hezbollahs role there in south america as well. Amongst the ongoing political unrest in venezuela, how can the state department ensure that Drug Trafficking organizations and other criminal and terrorist organizations, including hezbollah, dont grow stronger . Its very difficult. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Id just say this. It doesnt mean were giving up. Were certainly working on it. We have folks working on the border between venezuela and colombia, the brazilian border, all of the places that we can touch and reach. But it is the case when we no longer even have an embassy in venezuela. So it is difficult for us to do that. So we monitor, collect intelligence, and attempt to identify networks and work on them in places that surround venezuela. I want to go to drug or Money Laundering. Criminal elements are less likely to deal drugs if they cant benefit financially from the crime. Likewise, Drug Trafficking organizations are heavily reliant upon International Banking system to fund their operations. How effective are current antiMoney Laundering laws and existing sanction programs in destabilizing Transnational Criminal Organizations and targeting the proceeds of Drug Trafficking . Well, to give a qualitative answer to that is we spend a lot of resources on it, mostly treasury, in terms of the Banking System. But connected to what the Intelligence Community and state department has a role there as well. Clearly not sufficient, senator grassley. Your point is well taken. There are still spaces where money can move. The antiMoney Laundering laws are good. Theyre effective. They give us the resources and tools, and we force a lot of the resources to move through cash systems, not International Banking systems, but theres still more work to do there. Is there any change of law or help you need from congress in that regard . Have you suggested anything . If you do, now is an opportunity to repeat it. Senator grassley, if you will, id love to have treasury give you the answer to that in writing. So its more treasury than the Money Laundering we have a tiny role in this. It is really a treasury matter more than it is state. We work on that same set of issues and the designations that flow from those often are state department designations. But the most important work in the Banking System is done by treasury. Okay. This might be my last question. Colombia is the worlds leading producer of cocaine. Plan colombia weve talked about. Weve put a lot of money into it. The Financial Assistance has supported eradication and interdiction efforts as well as alternative development. What steps has the state department taken to evaluate the offensiveness of eradication, interdiction to reducing the supply of cocaine in colombia . Senator, we have published data, and we will continue to publish data. So has the Intelligence Community about hectares under cultivation. Theres still a lot of work to do. Theres an Important Court decision that will take place in colombia i think by late summer, early fall, which will either permit or deny the capacity to do aerial spraying, which is an important tool they need for interdiction and destruction of these coca fields. But we have really good data. I think we have our hands around it. We work alongside our colombia parts in the eradication business, and when the president took over, i will say he has built back these teams. It is hard work. It is manual, physical work. When you cant do aerial spraying, it is manual, physical work, and he has built back the teams that are taking down these things at the loss of life to colombian Law Enforcement officials. I think president duke is making a sincere effort to go back in the right direction, a real reduction year on year. Thank you very much. Senator perdue. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Its an honor to be on this caucus. I want to thank you and the Ranking Member for the bipartisan way that you approach this problem. This is not about politics. Its about our National Security. Mr. Secretary, i know youve got a million other priorities. Thank you for this time today youre giving us. I want to focus on mexico in my first question. Having worked down there pretty much most of the last 30 years inside mexico and in Central America, the cartels are really still the problem. And right now, this week in my state alone, in georgia, well lose 40 people to drug overdose. 40 people this week. You know the numbers. Half a trillion dollars, 500 billion. That makes the Cartel Business and the Drug Trafficking just in mexico alone coming across to the United States bigger than walmart to put it in perspective. So this is larger than our largest companies. And on the human scale, just this month, well give the cartels over a billion dollars, or somehow theyll earn a billion dollars just from the human traffic coming through the southern border, just in the stipend, the 5,000, 8,000 fee they charge the cartel. I was just down at the southern border a few weeks ago, on patrol with our cbp. I can tell you they are the best we have. Theyre doing a fantastic job. Theyre just overwhelmed. 140,000 people this week. My question is this. If a cartel was sending a Cruise Missile into dallas, texas, and killing 70,000 people, i think our response would be just a little less measured than it is today. So my question, its not necessarily just a state department issue. Its also a defense issue, a treasury issue. Youve mentioned several just this morning. How can we, on top of the emerita initiative, and i want to get to Central America later, what else can we do to put these cartels out of business . Weve been trying to do this since the term narco politics came to Central America 50 years ago. What can we do to put these cartels out of business because they are really the ones that are benefitting from this tragic disaster we have. Senator perdue, i wish i thought there was a Silver Bullet to this. I dont believe that. Yeah. I believe it takes sustained effort, sustained effort from the United States, all across the United States government and, importantly, sustained effort from our partner countries. It is the case that there are spaces in mexico where these cartels have enormous capacity and the risk of corruption is very, very real, and the ability to control that real estate and deny them the capacity, its the same you mentioned other fights, the counterterror fight. We see this all the time. We took down the caliphate. We took down the piece of real estate. That makes it harder. It raises the cost for them to act in ways that are harmful to the United States. We have to act with that same rigor. To do that, we need host countries that have capability. That will require us, in some cases, to help underwrite that, to provide them the resources, the tools that they need to deliver those outcomes, outcomes that benefit them. Mexico, as you have been talking about. But will have an enormous benefit for the United States as well. And if you look back and i cant do 50 years, but ive looked back 20, 25 years. We havent applied these tools consistently. Sometimes thats because weve made changes in our policy, but sometimes its been because of changes in governments inside of the countries that were trying to deal, and they they resist, or they want to try a different approach inside of the country. So we havent had a sustained, focused effort in the same way weve been able to do in some other National Security arenas to fight this true threat to the way of life in the United States of america. In the cabinet, its not just a state department issue. Its not just a defense issue. Do you guys talk about this as a crosscabinet responsibility . The specific comment i want to make is general kelly, in made the comment to congress that they could see 85 of the drugs coming out of latin america, but we could only interdict somewhere around 15 . In your mind, do you agree with that assessment . Secondly, what can state department and defense do together to improve the offensiveness, if you will, and interdiction . I know it goes back to some of the same answers you just gave in terms of partners and all that, but theres no Silver Bullet here either. No, thats right. Yeah, i think that data is about right. It is the case we can see a lot of what happens, but havent been able to impact the flow and interdict the flows. Its also the case that where weve had success with interdiction, weve cut off particular mechanisms, means, routes. The bad guys find another tool. So even when you stop one, they find another path forward. I think some of these end up being coast guard issues, right, as youre describing some of these routes that i think general kelly would have been referring to. Some of them are overland routes. Some of them are flying in in aircraft to short runways in dark places. It is a multifaceted task, and frankly theres two things, right . Theres the capacity of the host country, and then theres resource application. So if you were to say what could we do better with respect to interdiction, im sure we could be more efficient with the resources that we have so we can deliver against the mission set with the resources provided. But im also confident that were more resources applied, wed be able to attack multiple vectors simultaneously. Sometimes i know were making tradeoffs. My times expired, mr. Chairman. Ill yield back. Thank you, mr. Secretary for being here. Mr. Secretary, while senator whitehouse is collecting his thoughts, let me just ask you a couple other cleanup questions. I know that the United States has been focused like a laser on the threats emanating from the middle east. Obviously the attack on our country on 9 11 emanating from afghanistan, the war in iraq, and it seems to me that we have just not had the same sort of focus on whats happening on our southern border, whats happening in mexico and Central America. Im not criticizing. Im just stating that as, i believe, a fact. And then i think historically, theres been this idea that certainly in mexico, that this was not their problem. This is our problem. Right, a demandside problem. Exactly. Theres a lot of truth to that. And we struggle to find some way to deal with the demand side because we know if theres demand, theres going to be a supply. Senator feinstein and i have done some work in that area, but its just really scratching the surface. But i also think in terms of your earlier testimony about the developing relationship between the Lopez Obrador administration and the Trump Administration, dealing with this migrant crisis, it really strikes me as a change of approach and attitude. Rather than the United States doing something to these countries, we are linking arms and doing something with them, and something that represents a common challenge for both of our countries to be sure. And when i hear mexico talking about issuing work permits, perhaps granting asylum to some of the Central Americans in their country, i wonder whether some of the money that ordinarily we would say lets just send it to Central America, whether there isnt more we can do to help mexico. Yeah. With the facilities, with the training, with the infrastructure they need in order to be of greater assistance, if theyre willing to do so, which it looks like they are beginning to have that attitude. Whether theres more we can do to help mexico with that sort of assistance, which will directly inure to our benefit. Senator cornyn, i think youre right. This government has been in power for seven months now. My sense is theyre getting their feet underneath them too with respect to these issues as well. They understand the risk it presents to their country. To senator perdues point, these cartels that operate there, they know are no good for them. They present risk to us. So i do think theres opportunity. I guess the last thing id say is it is also the case and you said this right. Markets form when theres demand, and so all the interdiction, all the work that we do, so long as theres demand, i suppose if you can stop enough, you can raise the cost dramatically, and perhaps the demand would shrink because theres resource constraint. But weve got to work both sides of this problem if were going to get to the ultimate solution. Thank you. Senator whitehouse. Thank you, chairman cornyn. I appreciate this hearing. Thank you, mr. Secretary, for being here. Rhode island is not among the very worst states with respect to our opioid problem, but we are experiencing a serious enough opioid problem that we were in that small group of states that qualified for the supplemental funds that we organized here in the senate. Many thanks to senator shaheen for her work to make that happen. What we have seen is because of a lot of good work in our home state, our opioid Overdose Deaths are tailing off and actually starting to decline. Not a lot of states can say that, but weve had some real successes. Its not robust enough a signal to be able to confirm that it relates to the policy changes that weve put in place, but it sure is a heck of a lot better than going the other way. Within that number, however, fentanyl deaths are still going up. So the deaths overall from overdose are coming down. The fentanyl deaths are going up. 28,000. And were seeing, as you have probably experienced, elsewhere a need for our Law Enforcement professionals to undertake various protective measures to keep themselves safe when they come into contact with crime scenes because of the really extraordinary concentration in which fentanyl is distributed. So you may have mentioned this already, but im interested in what you think the prospects are with china. I can remember the last administration being one of the voices for having the department of justice go out and indict some people over some of this stuff, and theres a lot that can be done. Whats your current state of play with the chinese, and what are your top two or three goals with them to try to get them to quit manufacturing the fentanyl for u. S. Distribution . Yeah. Illicit distribution. Senator, thanks. So president xi made a personal commitment to President Trump that he would direct his team to work this. We have seen literally i guess i would describe in the last two months, a true change in our interactions with them on this issue. Theyve now put in place a set of requirements that will list all of the various variance, if you will, that will put them on their list, essentially like our controlled substance list. Yeah. So thats all good. The interactions that weve had at the working level with the Chinese Government over these weeks has been very positive. The proof, senator whitehouse, is in the delivery. It is can we physically observe these facilities being shut down . Can we physically observe the movement of these products, right . We have an interdiction. We assume we get some percentage of that that comes across. Can we see these numbers begin to come down, transiting from china either straight here or through mexico, which is often the route as well . Theres still a lot of work to be done both between the United States and china and the United States and mexico on this fentanyl issue, but im very hopeful that the Chinese Government will continue to take this seriously and begin to take actions inside of the country which will reduce the flow. By the way, were working with all the various means of distribution, the United States Postal Service, all the people who touch these products, to try and close it down, raise the cost here in the United States, and decrease the volume of flow. Whats should we look for that will let us know this is working . I dont want to be trite, right . We have a sense of what came in in january and february and march, and we need to see that number decline. So much as we do with migration where we measure apprehensions, which isnt the perfect marker to be sure, but i think interdictions, that is the amount of flow that we can see and touch and feel. And then second were hoping that will go up because of what weve done to improve the Postal Service and its always a mixed bag. Its always a mixed bag. We wouldnt want to lose the signal and have we have the same thing with migration. We have the same thing in every place we go. Its absolutely the case that the better you get, you also hope, though, that that raises cost and improves deterrence, right . Then the last thing is we ought to be able to see inside of china. We have a sense of some of the production mechanisms, and we ought to be able to see reduction of that on the ground inside of their country as well. Thank you. If you dont mind, just since we have you here, ill mention two other quick things. One, we have very strong bipartisan work happening here in the senate on Marine Plastic waste. Mmhmm. The president signed our bill. Yep. Spoke very strongly about his irritation with the five asian nations that provide more than 50 of the Plastic Waste because they dont bother to take care of their upland Waste Disposal in a responsible way. And yet i keep reading news clips that say that where were negotiating on these issues internationally, its always the u. S. That is dragging on that when it seems that the signal from congress is, were going forward. We like this. Were doing this in a bipartisan fashion. And the signal from the president seems very good to me as well. So any signal that you could send to encourage your troops . Yes. To not be the anchor that everybody else has to drag but instead be leaders in this area would be helpful. Yes. Im happy to do it right here. This is important. This is priority. It is bipartisan, to your point, and its executive and legislative branch together. I hope my teams not dragging their feet. The second thing ill commit to you is i will go validate that i hope the reports that youre reading are incorrect. We ought not be doing that, and i will do more than discourage it if, in fact, i find thats the case. Im sorry. My time is exceeded by 34 seconds. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Secretary, thank you for being with us today. We know youve got many demands on your time, but were grateful for the time youve spent here with us, and we look forward to continuing the conversation and working with you and the rest of the administration to address the multifairious challenges that come from our proximeity t mexico and Central America. Thank you very much. Thank you. Let me invite our next panel, please, to come up and have a seat. Let me introduce our next panel. The honorable rand beers is a former assistant secretary of the bureau for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement affairs, the United States department of state, and undersecretary for the National Protection and programs direct trat of the department of homeland security. He currently serves on the board of the middle east institute. The honorable Roger Noriega is a visiting fellow of the American Enterprise institute. Hes former u. S. Ambassador to the organization of american states and assistant secretary of state for western hemisphere affairs. I should say all of our witnesses are honorable. Finally the honorable earl wayne is a Public Policy fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for scholars. Hes a former u. S. Ambassador to mexico and argentina, deputy ambassador in afghanistan, assistant secretary of state for economic and business affairs, and Principal Deputy assistant secretary for state for europe. Im grateful to each of you for being here. Given the fact that we have votes scheduled starting at 4 00, what i would like to do is try to use as much of the time in q a and discussion, so i would invite you to make a few opening comments. But if youll keep that under two or three minutes, that would be helpful to make sure we have enough time for q a following your Opening Statements. So, mr. Beers, would you like to start . Thank you, senator cornyn, senator feinstein. I appreciate being here. I want to talk about two particular areas in the western hemisphere colombia and the northern triangle. With respect to colombia, you all have seen the statistics about the increase in cultivation there. There are a lot of factors that went into that. Obviously the Peace Agreement created some problems in terms of ending aerial eradication and in terms while the process was going on, encouraging the farmers to grow more coca in order to gain stipends from the government for the amount of coca that they had. What i want to say specifically about this and in my statement, i go into more detail we had success in plan colombia with a combined effort between the United States and the government of colombia. I think that at this particular point in time, which is not to diminish what administrations have done recently, that we need to look at a level of commitment there that is equivalent to what we had before because colombia is not just a unique problem. It is creating a broader problem in the region with the transit of cocaine or the consumption of cocaine in the entire western hemisphere. And that problem is not going to go away unless we and the government of colombia can Work Together. With respect to Central America, lets be clear. And, senator feinstein, you talked about it in the earlier part of the hearing. The resources in those three countries are not there. They are el salvador and honduras are the number one and two murder capitals in the world. The level of crime there, the level of corruption there have, in turn, bred poverty and reduced Economic Activity. Again, if we dont look at this as a drug problem as well as a migration problem, if we dont work to build the local institutions to deal with the drug trade as well as with migration, then were losing out on an opportunity there. And i believe senator feinstein was right when she said looking at a much Larger Program there is imperative. But lets also be clear that colombia has and can help us there in terms of their Law Enforcement training and support for the Law Enforcement institutions in those countries. But we also have to recognize that Law Enforcement alone is not going to solve this problem either here or there. Were going to have to do more in terms of going to the root causes, which is what causes the farmers to reduce growing, and what causes the crime and violence in Central America to be reduced sufficient to create less of a driver for migration from Central America to the United States. Thank you very much. Thank you, mr. Beers. Mr. Noriega. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Thank you for the opportunity. Mr. Chairman, the threat of illegal Drug Trafficking has never been more dangerous. Illicit drug trade is part of a transnational organized crime threat that commands annual revenue of 2. 2 trillion, which is the equivalent of the gdp of mexico. That threat grows more powerful every day as it optimizes the supply chain of drugs to the north american market. With respect to key targets that we have to confront, i think weve dropped the ball in the last ten years. One of the most important phenomena that were confronting today is statesponsored crime, which wages asymmetrical warfare against the United States and our allies. The narco state of venezuela is only the most obvious threat. Cuba, russia, iran, and even china are willing coconspirators in supporting a toxic norco regime in caracas that turns out corruption, cocaine violence, and refugees on our doorstep. Mr. Chairman, regarding colombia, im dismayed the report that the impressive achievements of plan colombia have been squandered in an ill conceived bid to make piece with narco guerrillas, resulting in an explosion of Drug Trafficking in the region. Cultivation reached 209,000 hectares, just over 800 square miles, double that of 2012. Potential pure cocaine production increased three times the estimates in 2012. On our border, at a time when we need mexico to do more to fight drugs, its Political Leadership is irresolute, in my opinion, and its enforcement resources are overwhelmed by illegal migrants. President obrador has declared a unilateral end to the war on drugs and has spoken openly to offering amnesty to drug traffickers and legalizing opium and marijuana to quell violence. In the First Six Months of his administration, there has been a dramatic decline in the amount of cocaine, heroin, and illicit drug laboratories seized by mexican authorities. We cannot dream of getting ahead of these problems without mexico pulling its weight. Briefly on some recommendations, we need more funds, more people, more experts to wield the asymmetrical weapons of sanctions and prosecutions against transnational organized crime, to indict narco kingpins, deny access to the International Financial system, and to disrupt their networks. The narco kingpins of venezuela should be the prime targets. Yes, colombia has to do more on coca eradication, but i think we should keep in mind that colombia has been a stalwart ally of ours, that the current president inherited the problem that hes confronting, and that we need them to be with us, and we should treat them as allies. Finally, mr. Chairman, i dont think that we can continue treating the symptoms. We see a cancer in the narco state of venezuela. We have to do more than treat the symptoms. We need to cut out the cancer. Thank you, mr. Noriega. Mr. Wayne. Thank you, senator cornyn, senator feinstein. Its important to note that the United States and mexico are both facing a powerful onslaught of crossborder crime and criminal activity. Bilateral cooperation needs to effectively address both the flows of the dangerous drugs that weve talked about today coming into the United States and the drug sale profits which are fueling the violence in mexico and undermining the efforts of the government there to work against this violence and corruption. In 2017, mexico and the United States agreed on a strategy to go after the entire chain of drug production, distribution, and finances, and it recognizes u. S. Demand as well as mexican supply had to be addressed. However, in mexico, the current government is now embarking on a wider multipronged strategy, responding to those people who voted for them to come in, who are reacting against the violence and corruption, spreading widely in mexico. The key for revitalizing our counternarcotics cooperation is a thorough bilateral review of the challenges and existing cooperation and hammering out a shared and agreed action plan. That should include a fresh look at the merita initiative, which has produced a number of excellent programs. It should also include the Mexican Government completing its internal assessment of the cooperation thats been going on over the past ten years. Very much i believe that there needs to be a cabinetlevel coordination mechanism to reconcile those top Public Security priorities, for both countries to set out an agreed action agenda, to monitor progress, to address problems as they arise, and to report to the two president s. Essential is a green bilateral strategy and action agenda, and then setting up the concrete working arrangements that are going to allow us to carry out Law Enforcement and capacity building. If we can do that, we can generate good confidence and good results working together between mexico and the United States. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Well, thank you, ambassador wayne. Let me start with a round of questions. Then ill turn to senator feinstein. Let me just ask you about the last comments you made, ambassador wayne, about cabinetlevel individual. Are you talking about a president ial envoy of some kind that would be focused on mexico and Central America and the region, or did i misunderstand you . Well, i know its similar to the idea you put forward. I was thinking mainly in the u. S. Mexico context, that you need a senior enough level group to get the attention of all the various agencies in both governments that work on this, to have the direct ties to the president and then to start agreeing on an action agenda and making sure it happens. That could also be part of a broader regional effort because as has been so clearly laid out in this hearing, in this discussion, the connections to Central America, to colombia, to the other countries are there, theyre active, and we need to address them. The key, however, is a multiagency ability to coordinate to act together not only internally, but with our partner countries. Well, id note with some dismay that we have not had an ambassador to mexico for a couple of years now, which is shocking to me. I know the embassy in mexico city is one of the largest in the world, and given the significance of the issues that were talking about here, much of which would be handled within the context of the embassy and our ambassador there, my hope is that the Foreign Relations committee im not sure where the nominee for the next ambassador is. I hope it youre not volunteering . I hope it gets processed through the Foreign Relations committee so we can rectify that omission. Mr. Noriega, let me ask you. You mentioned the 10 billion, i believe, that we spent on plan colombia. When i look at the amount of money that we have dedicated to Central America and to mexico in the merita initiative, it really seems pretty meager by comparison. Now, im the last person to suggest its only a question of more money. We obviously need a plan. We need accountability. We need metrics to measure the efficacy of it. But it strikes me that we have not responded in the sort of emphatic and significant way to the challenges we face in Central America and mexico like we did on plan colombia. Is that fair . Yes. Mr. Chairman, i believe that there is a need for a comprehensive strategy approach. We tend to deal with these countries first off, we break off the northern triangle, which is the source of immigration. But we need to deal with them as sort of an economic area, as we did ten years ago when we passed the Free Trade Agreement with Central America. But we need to engage the individual governments as well, and in certain cases we dont have leadership that weve had confidence in or even good relationships with. That was certainly a difference with the president s of colombia. But we have a strategy essentially that the Interamerican Development bank developed for the Economic Development of Central America that i think is a fundamentally sound approach. But we also need to have the overlay of security assistance, and we have very problematical relationships with guatemala, with honduras, with el salvador, with nicaragua, where that doesnt come into play. Weve put a substantial amount of money in mexico, 2. 3 billion since the merita initiative about eight or nine years ago, but part of that is what are the partners willing to accept in terms of assistance . With a lot of what we put into plan colombia was security assistance, which certainly the mexicans up to now would be less inclined to take. So i certainly respect the idea of dealing with these countries as a unit, with Central America and with mexico as a partner, which is willing to put in resources as well, and that, i think, is a wise approach. We have to address that problem in terms of illegal immigration as well as International Narcotics problem. The problem we have are weak states that are literally outgunned by the narco traffickers. And unless we approach the security issues, unless we deal with the narco state in venezuela, for example, were really not going to get the kind of traction we need. Thank you. Senator feinstein. Im really depressed by this because ive been to colombia. Ive seen, you know, the 10 billion injection. Ive seen some good government. I was there when i was a mayor. I was there later. I see venezuela crumbling, and i dont know whether its drugs or its corrupt leadership, but its got to be one of the two of them because i thought if any country would make it, it would be colombia. And now venezuela is the next thing to a narco state next door. I dont know what to think or what to do, and more and more as i watch these things, i tend to blame them on leaders. Am i wrong . I dont think youre wrong, senator feinstein, and its its very troubling that we had a partner in colombia, santos, who made an earnest effort to make peace with the narco guerrillas. A lot of people warned him this was a mistake, that you cant reach a political agreement with essentially a criminal organization. And all along the way and during the course of those negotiations, they made unilateral concessions to the guerrillas, starting with the ending of aerial spraying, fumigation of illicit crops. I have a friend in the state department who said in point of fact, santos government sort of went along with the u. N. Criticizing the use of that fumigation because he wanted to hand the guerrillas essentially something they were insisting upon, which is no more aerial fumigation. We also pulled back in terms of Security Operations in the guerrilla areas and in the territory where they moved, produces, and then transited the illicit crops. We also gave up a lot on extradition of narco kingpins, and now this is a problem bedeviling colombia today. So i believe he made a serious mistake, but we were with him as a partner every step of the way because we supported the idea of a peace process. I think we should have been more arbiter. Harder nosed. More of an umpire and less of a cheerleader in that process. Then one final comment. We will not get any traction with colombia if we dont deal with the venezuela problem. Much of the fark, which was supposed to be demobilized by the peace process, have now relocated into venezuela. They operate with other guerrilla organizations Trafficking Cocaine and in gold and that are a threat to colombias security. They operate with absolute impunity, in point of fact, in partnership with the Venezuelan Regime. Were not going to this administration has dug in hard on venezuela but seems to have run out of ideas and energy. We cannot give this up. Well, let me ask you. We spent 10 billion there. How can it end this way . I was there when everything was moving up, and now and it seems to be just the leaders that are corrupted, and i guess corrupted by money, and the state falls, or it goes into a narco state, which is what i guess venezuela is doing now. Id like also rand and ambassador wayne to speak. Sorry about calling you by your first name. I did that before you had gray hair, so i figured its okay. I think your hypothesis bears merit here. I dont think its one or the other, corruption or leadership. I think its a combination of both. I agree with rogers point about some of the decisions that president santos made in order to get the Peace Agreement. He was also very much committed to the notion that if he could solve the security problem this is his interpretation. If he could solve the security problem with respect to the farc, he would gain traction to deal better with the narcotics problem. That didnt work out exactly the way that he thought, but he didnt stay in office long enough to even have a serious chance to implement his ideas. And as this hearing has said time and time again, this is not a shortterm problem. This is a longterm problem. The basic precepts of plan colombia, i think, still stand merit today, and where it failed in the long term is that the agreement to do alternative forms of Economic Activity agriculture, alternative development more generally never, ever were implemented in a serious enough way, in an area of the country that has been distant from the capital and distant from the elites in the country from time immemorial. So its also, in my view, leadership and a conscious, continuous implementation effort to deal with these problems altogether. Law enforcement alone is essential, but Law Enforcement is not, in and of itself, sufficient to deal with this problem. There has to be a broader, overall effort. Youve talked today about the organization of the u. S. Government and whether or not its a whole of government effort. It has almost never been a whole of government effort. The only institution in the government whose entire mission is drugs is dea. Even in the state department, for the money that has flowed through to inl in terms of that, it is still not the central issue within the state department. Im not saying it should be, but lets be candid here. Unless the people who are implementing understand that this is a critical issue to the leadership, going to your point, senator feinstein, about leaders, its not going to be the same kind of priority issue, and people are not going to move out of the way in order to get things done in that particular area. Thank you. Thank you. Could we hear from mr. Wayne . Certainly. I think that what were seeing is its a com bination of political will and Institutional Capacity that really do make a difference. If you have a longterm strategy and a longterm commitment from partners like the United States, you can help build that Solid Foundation of strong institutions that will allow you to go through the ups and downs of elections and changes of government. And youre seeing that in colombia with the new president drawing on the institutions that were there and help strengthened, with our assistance as well as their own internal work. But it really does need to be in both all countries that whole of government approach that rand was talking about and a longterm strategy. And if you look at Central America, you can see the ups and downs even of our commitment to that region, which has a lot of effects, especially in a place with weak institutions as we know the Northern Tier has. Thank you. Thank you. Ive been advised we have a little bit of a reprieve, so were not we dont turn into pumpkins at 4 00. So weith that, ill turn to senator perdue for any questions he might have. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you to the witnesses for being here and for all your experience in this area. Ambassador noriega, in mexico, we asked our prior witness, the secretary of state, about the cartel situation in mexico. And youve been fairly critical of president obrador and this new administration as theyve been getting their feet on the ground. In your view, how will the merita initiative and other bilateral be affected by the change in this administration. And the second part of the question is how should we approach the cartel impact and influence in Central America and in mexico . Well, senator, Lopez Obrador is a populist. He comes from the left in his country. But i will say that since he became president , hes sought to sought positive, constructive relationships with the United States. So i think that hes prepared to engage in a serious way. Up to now, i think because of, you know, some bureaucratic challenges and changes in leadership and, yes, some corruption that he found in some of the agencies affected, theyve kind of dropped the ball on some of the antidrug efforts and certainly on the measurements in terms of seizures and that sort of thing. The statistics i mentioned. Thats absolutely unsustainable. If mexico loses ground to these extraordinarily powerful criminal entities, theyre going to those entities will continue to have their way, and it will get worse anywhere in mexican territory. And theyre becoming more sophisticated. You have mexican cartels now moving into colombia and taking up rolling up even more of the cocaine production chain so that they can generate even greater profits. Theyre not going to go away. Lopez obrador has talked about amnesty for these folks. Hes talked about legalizing crops as a means of reducing violence and the number of deaths, and thats clearly a priority of the mexican people as well. But its a mistaken approach, and i think we need to engage them in a serious way and hold them accountable because in certain respects, thats even more important than the immigration challenge that were facing. Are you hopeful that his move with the National Guard to help combat crime has that had any impact so far, or do you anticipate it might . Well, ambassador wayne may have more information on this, but frankly the National Guard, up until fairly recently, was a figment of Lopez Obradors imagination. He had a sixmonth transition. He talked about these sorts of things, obviously wasnt able to execute them until he became president. But i would be surprised if much of this vaunted Organization Even exists. Its certainly a good thing that they commit to putting resources, and hell have to do that in certain ways, but it remains to be seen ambassador wayne, would you like to comment on that . Thank you very much. A couple of things. One, in my long written testimony, i have a whole section on the merita initiative and then specific recommended areas for cooperation to take this forward, which id be happy to talk about separately in more detail. On the National Guard, they are still building that. What theyve taken is the federal police, the police from the army and the police from the navy as the core. They now need to hire, train the rest of that group to get up to 140,000. So theres a core that have experience. They dont have that much experience working together, so theres a lot of work to do. Theyve laid out a plan to deploy this group all over the country. They divide the country into about 250 different districts, and theyre going to send some of them everywhere. So this is going to be something in progress. Its going to take work, and it is something where i think the United States can be supportive if theyre open to that because theyre going to need to learn how to be this combined Political Police group and to work with prosecutors and to work with local officials, and we can offer them technical training, Technical Assistance to do that. But it is an institution in creation right now. Theres no doubt about that. Its also true that the new government was really preoccupied with learning how to govern and initiate all of its initial reforms. Just as weve seen in migration, theyve been learning along the way, and theyre now making some more serious commitments there. I think now is indeed the time to engage them and move forward in this Public Security crossborder crime, counternarcotics area to start getting serious about a concrete action agenda that we can both undertake. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator whitehouse. Thank you. There is a part of the International Criminal economy that we can do something about. One of the things that people have observed over and over again is whether youre a narco criminal, whether youre a klepto criminal, whatever your criminal activity is, once you have made your pile, you seek rule of law protections. You steal your money in the criminal kleptocratic parts of the world. But when youve got your pile, you want to bring it to rule of law country so that you can protect your illgotten gains. Weve seen that in the panama papers. Weve seen that in the paradise papers, our treasure and fincen officials are boiling hot about this concern, and theres widespread irritation about this through the american Law Enforcement community because the United States, as a matter of policy, aids and abets those criminals in hiding and laundering their illgotten gains. And we do so by allowing Shell Corporations to persist without disclosing who the real owner is. And i think each of the organizations that you are affiliated with has pushed into that a little bit and tried to be helpful. I appreciate very much that our banking community, our Law Enforcement community, and the department of treasury are all very forwardleaning on this subject. But we still need to make more progress. If we could take away sanctuary in the United States for assets of the corrupt officials and the narcos themselves, would that not make some difference in this fight . It wouldnt put an end to it. I know its just a piece of the puzzle. But isnt this something we should do a better job of . Sir, we have tried that to some extent. Youre right in that regard. The Shell Corporations is not something weve tried to do. Previous administration did allow the Treasury Department to sanction drug traffickers and Drug Trafficking organizations to the extent that they could identify where their money is. I think the notion of banking transparency with respect to that or with respect to corporations i dont know the extent to which we can administer or i should say create that program which would have an extra territorial aspect to it. It wouldnt have to be extraterritorial. The United States is actually becoming the repository right. For an enormous amount of this money in states that are subject to our laws. And that certainly would help. I was actually thinking more about the caymans and no, the u. S. Being a shelter. Mr. Noriega . For example, the Venezuelan Regime has laundered excuse me looted about 350 billion in oil revenue. That money is in dollardenominated accounts all over the world and in european accounts and euro accounts. Its just the hard work of investigations and using intelligence and Law Enforcement organizations to go after them. And you have a lot of work put in on Southern District of new york, Southern District of florida, houston. Although one piece of the work, an element that would make the work a lot easier, would be a requirement that a Shell Corporation disclose who its true Beneficial Owner is, which is what treasury is pushing for. Mmhmm. Then its a very simple ask from Law Enforcement as opposed to an arduous and often impossible task. Yeah, certainly i would defer to you on that. But i will say that ofec, the dea, need more they have resources and Legal Authority but they need more bodies to do this. My time is running out, so id like to ask this before we close. Senator, i agree completely, we need to move forward in more transparency and Beneficial Ownership, that will be in addition to fighting corruption and all sorts of illicit money flows. We can join a number of other leading countries and set bass practices but we can make a big difference but it can make it big difference, and were not talking about making this available to everyone but having access to officials when theres a reason to track the money, that would help. Thank you german. Thank you, let me ask my staff to hold up a chart that we have here. , the other one please. We talked here little bit today, secretary pompeo when you about what might congress to about working with the administration to come up with a comprehensive strategy . Obviously upland one that we could explain to the American People will that deserves the investment of their hardearned dollars in order to allow metrics to measure success. Let me ask you about the elements here, this chart suggests that a comprehensive strategy must address narcotic supply and demand and criminal organizations and improve security coop ration with International Partners and invest in Economic Security. May i ask each of you whether you think that encompasses the elements of an appropriate plan or are there other things you might suggest or do you disagree with any of these . I dont disagree at all, the only thing that comes to mind that may not be within the orbit of the four items is corruption. You have to look at corruption as well. And, create the basis for dealing with corruption. On an international basis. Fair enough. I think you folks basically took us to school today about interagency coordination and it something i think that we need to have the whole of government approach with agencies working together as well as partners overseas. Thank you. I think you hit all the areas there but i would put under the improving Security Cooperation, building their capacity at the same time or else the cooperation will not mean as much but if we could Work Together to strengthen the capacity to work with us that would be very helpful. Thank you for the answers to the questions. I remain somewhat of us got sick on the ability to build other nations. Weve seen our challenges around the world when weve attempted to do that and certainly, again we can work with those countries and with the leadership of those countries, hopefully deal with the corruption issue so we have reliable partners to work with but to help them help them selves. But, as somebody pointed out, we cannot wanted for them worse than they wanted for them because obviously, we cant impose this on any of these countries anywhere in the world, literally. But, im grateful to each of you for your participation today and invite you to continue the conversation as we work through this and we intend to work with the secretary of state and other members of the administration to try to come up with some government of rozas we touched on here a number of times because i think this is an area that we sent we have not dedicated enough of our time and attention to or the resources we need in order to make a difference here i think part of what we are seeing on the southern border and migration front, what we are seeing on the drugs and overdose front here in america, cries out for the best effort so we look forward to continuing the conversation and thank you for your participation today. The hearing is now adjourned. The house beginning work on fiscal year 2020 spending joined by jennifer who covers a probe relations and budget for roll call. The first up i