Morning, everyone. The committee will come to order. Were here to examine the deferred maintenance needs of the public Land Management agencies. This is a topic i care about. I know each of you certainly, the folks on this committee, have expressed concern. Not just coming into this hearing today, but, really, over the years. When we consider deferred maintenance, we most commonly think of the 12 billion maintenance backlog accrued by the National Park service. We consider that here in the committee at great length and it rightfully continues to attract a great deal of national attention. But somehow and sometimes overlooked in this conversation are the deferred maintenance needs of the other federal Land Management agencies, including the Forest Service, the bureau of Land Management and fish and Wildlife Service. Combined with the park service, these four agencies face a deferred maintenance backlog totalling 19. 4 billion. Thats worthy of repeating. Within these four agencies that govern our public lands, almost 20 billion in deferred maintenance backlog. This is an overwhelming amount that covers everything from direct Visitor Experiences to projects that will perhaps never be noticed by the average family. Regardless of the agency were talking about, deferred maintenance needs are very real. Families visiting the grand canyon National Park should not be greeted by locked bathrooms and campers should not be left without access to shower and laundry facilities, as was the case for ten days when the sole water line serving the canyon burst last month. This is a water line thats had over 80 separate breaks since 2010. So its not like we didnt see this one coming. For us in alaska, one that hits close to home, is in denahli National Park where earlier this summer, we had a Service Truck that slid off the gravel back field park road. Weve heard a lot about polychrome pass. Fortunately, the driver wasnt injured there but were looking at a practical reality with the landslides and the slumping or slippage that is going to require if not a significant overhaul, a complete rerouting of that road at incredible expense. And while recreation is a major driver of this discussion, deferred maintenance impacts wildlife, conservation and Development Opportunities as well. Blm has identified 57 miles of roads in Eastern Oregon in need of repair. These roads support timber operations, they provide a way of life for wildlife managers to access the heart of chinook salmon spawning areas. In colorado, a project to remove and replant trees that have been killed by spruce beetle on 1100 acres of fireprone land has stalled indefinitely because of the poor Road Conditions in the Rio Grande National forest. In many cases, roads, bridges, waste Water Systems and other federal assets are intertwined with the needs of local communities. Counties and boroughs have an obligation to ensure the safety of their citizens and vitality of their local economy. And that means the infrastructure they share with their federal neighbor, including the roads used by First Responders have to be well maintained, or at least maintained. As part of the conversation today well discuss the need to develop meaningful, creative and fiscally sound solutions to ensure the longterm maintenance of our expensive public lands infrastructure. Well consider the need for federal agencies to prioritize routine maintenance to prevent projects from becoming backlogged in the first place. And well also discuss the role of philanthropic donations, Public Private partnerships and intergovernmental agreements that are in place today. So im pleased to be able to welcome our witnesses to the committee to help us advance this important discussion. Weve got representatives from the department of interior, the Forest Service, as well as the recreation industry. Accounting government and an advocate for public land stewardship. It really represents the breadth of stakeholders who are involved in this issue. I know all of you are looking to congress to say, okay, what are we going to do . How we are going to deal with this . I appreciate you being here. Ill turn to my Ranking Member, senator manchin, and then move to the witnesses. Thank you for scheduling this important hearing and thank you for being here. With the maintenance needs facing our federal Land Management agencies, its overwhelming. This committee has spent a lot of time over the last few years reviewing proposals to address the National Park services almost 12 billion backlog of deferred maintenance programmings. Our National Parks are one of the countrys greatest ideas and falls on us to make sure were laying the groundwork for the next 100 years. Well also discuss the deferred maintenance backlog of forist service and other Land Management agencies in need of close examination. Taken together, combined backlog of the deferred maintenance needs has totaled more than 19 billion. And thats billion with a b. So this is a serious funding problem. It is clear it cannot be addressed solely through regular appropriations process. Even though West Virginia may not have the same amount of federal land as some of the western states, deferred maintenance is challenging my little state of West Virginia. And my state alone, the Park Services deferred maintenance of nearly 60 million. And u. S. Fish and Wildlife Service has funding backlog of almost 7 million. Thats over 100 million of federal deferred maintenance needs in a state of about 1. 8 Million People. Addressing the maintenance backlog will allow the agencies to fulfill their mission to protecting nationally significant treasures and provide access to people that use the lands for hunting, fishing, shooting, hiking and all types of recreation. National park system areas draw over 318 million visitors each year and generate over 40 billion in annual economic output. National forest draw an additional 149 million visitors each yoor and generate over 11 billion in economic output. A lot of this money goes into Rural Communities that have few of the resources of income because of the remoteness of their areas. Improving the visitors experience means more local jobs and a stronger economy in rural america. I hope we can use todays hearing to identify options and lay the groundwork to address the deferred maintenance needs before us. I want to make sure the agencies have plans in place that will not only identify the highest priority projects but also want to make sure the agencies have longterm maintenance funding in place so we dont end up right back where we started. When i was governor, i used to have everybody come to me. And they always told me they needed money for this, this and this. But yet, any money they got, theyd use for a new project or new buildings. Never took care of what they had. So i stopped all the money. You dont need another penny until you take care of what you got. They never built it in their budget. Maintenance funding was never built in the building. Everything but maintenance funding was built in the budget. Were going to find out today whats going on and how to best address this. In my view, basically, the key to establishing reliable revenue source. I understand the federal government has a different way of approaching how we do bonding. In states we would bond out. Dedicated revenue, wed bond it out and fix the problem and make sure it didnt happen again. The federal government has it different because we cant, and appropriations obviously, cant obligate future senators to commitments of how the monies will be spent. So several years ago, the National Park service estimated it would take 700 million each yoor just to keep the maintenance problem from getting worse. I dont know what the estimate is for the other agencies but it would take more than that. In addition, the longer we drag our feet, the worse it gets. Our best chance of getting something to try to pass to restore our parks act. Thats from senators partman, alexander, warner and king. Im one of the cosponsors. Most of vus suppous have suppor. It would provide 5 billion over fuf years to address the National Park funding needs. The house companion includes funding for other agencies in addition to the park service and we can explore those in more detail today. Congress for the first time ever, the committee reported mandatory funding bills for National Park deferred maintenance and we reported legislation to provide mandatory funding for the land and Water Conservation fund. I know we have a hearing scheduled for next week, and i thank the chairman very much for that. But i think the best path forward is to find a way to address both the maintenance and funding issues while preserving and oversight of these funds. I understand that passing bills will be a challenge but theres a broad bipartisan support for both the deferred maintenance and lwc funding. It would have a lasting benefit to many of our nations most treasured lands. Well help improve Public Access to these areas and enhance the importance of our federal lands. I look forward to working with my colleagues to find a way to get these bills signed into law. I look forward to hearing from each of you. Thank you, senator manchin. Were joined this morning by mr. Scott cameron who is the Principal Deputy assistant secretary of policy, management and budget at the department of interior. We welcome you. Ms. Lenise lago is the associate chief at the Forest Service. Welcome to the committee. Liz archuleta is the supervisor for Coconino County in arizona on the board of supervisors. We thank you for making the trip back. Mr. Dan puskar is the president and ceo of the Public Lands Alliance. Thank you for what you do. And ms. Jessica wahle is the executive director for the Outdoor Recreation roundtable. We welcome each of you. Wed ask that you try to keep your comments this morning to about five minutes. Your full statements will be incorporated as part of the record. Once you have each given your statement, well have an opportunity to pose our questions and engage in some back and forth. Mr. Cameron, if youd like to lead off. Chairman murkowski, Ranking Member manchin, members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the department of interiors infrastructure, including deferred maintenance. The department of the interior manages infrastructure portfolio with the replacement value of about 300 billion with a b dollars. Ranging from large dams and canals in the west to National Landmarks like the statue of liberty and the Washington Monument on the east coast. Roads, bridges, trails, Water Systems, laboratories, employee housing, Visitors Centers and schools campgrounds and drinking fountains are part of this critical but often unnoticed portfolio of assets. In total, interior is responsible for 43,000 buildings, nearly 100,000 miles of road and 77,000 structures. Interior manages approximately 20 of all land in the United States and operates in 2,400 loe locations across the country. Interior lands and facilities serve nearly 5 million visitors annually, provide schooling for approximately 47,000 indian children and provide critical access for the public to hike, boat, hunt, fish and enjoy numerous other outdoor activities. Interiors facilities directly contribute to our bureaus ability to fulfill our varied missions. After years of increased visitation and use, our aging facilities and other vital structures are in urgent need of repair. Investment in interiors infrastructure also benefits local economies. In fy 2017, activities on lands in total were associated with about 165 billion in value added to the u. S. Economy. Almost 300 billion in economic output and supported almost 2 million jobs. Aging infrastructure impacts our ability to serve the public at interior. Many of these assets are deteriorating with older assets becoming increasingly more expensive to repair and maintain in good condition. At the end of fy 2018, the departments total deferred maintenance backlog was 16. 4 billion. The maintenance of these assets and the preservation of the publics access to our National Parks, wildlife refuges, Indian Schools and federal lands more generally is a federal responsibility. Reducing interiors infrastructure deferred maintenance backlog, along with modernization of our facilities of the top priority under this administration. Just last week, secretary bernhart and the Vice President were at yellowstone National Park working with our employees to repair some of the infrastructure at the park to draw attention to this important issue. All facilities and equipment naturally degrade over time as senator manchin observed. Ident deficiencies and are being corrected, other deficiencies show themselves and existing deficiencies get worse unless they are addressed in a timely manner. Construction, maintenance, and repairs completed on a Real Property asset cannot reflect a oneanddone mindset, nor is it wise or Cost Effective to build or repair an asset and let it run to failure. According to a National Academy of sciences study, private industry standards suggest that an amount equal to 2 to 4 of the replacement value of construction assets be invested in maintenance each year. In contrast, currently interior is able to invest less than one half of 1 each year. Accompanying the president s 2020 budget for interior is the reproposal of the Public Lands Infrastructure Fund that it was alluded to earlier. It would generate up to 6. 5 billion over five years for a deferred maintenance need for the departments of the interior and agriculture. This investment would significantly improve the publics experience at many of americas most visible, visited, and treasured places. We are delighted that the senate has before it, before this committee, legislation to deal with the parks. We understand that there is companion or related legislation on the house side that may be going to markup as early as tomorrow. And we eagerly look forward to working with the congress to enact this legislation. Id also point out that a significant portion of our assets are actually funded through the department of transportation, federal highways, administration, and weve got a great working relationship with the department of transportation on that. I look forward to answering questions from the committee and thank you so much for your attention to this vital issue. Thank you. Ms. Lago, welcome. Thank you, mmadam chairman a members of the community. Thank you for inviting me to share the position on agricultural within the department of agriculture and Forest Service. I want acknowledge how it is to roads, trails, bridges, Visitors Centers used by the public or offices, air tanker bases, employee housing, water, wasteWater Systems used by employees, theyre all part of the infrastructure thats the physical link between americans and their public lands. People depend on a safe Forest Service road network to get to schools, stores, hospitals, and homes. The roads system is critical to carrying out active management to improve forest conditions. Perhaps most critically, forest infrastructure provides Fire Protection for communities. Firefighters and Emergency Responders used forest infrastructure to access forest lands for firefighting operations, to protect communities, evacuate families from areas at risk, and to rescue individuals from danger. Id like to also highlight the economic benefits communities derive from Forest Service infrastructure. The Forest Service provides the most diverse recreation opportunities in the nation across worldclass landscapes that attract over 149 million visitors annually. Both directly and indirectly National Forest visitor spending contributes over 10 billion to the u. S. Economy every year while supporting about 143,000 jobs, mostly in gateway and Rural Communities. Outdoor recreation and tourism are the singlegreatest source of jobs on the National Forest system and the single greatest stimulus for local economies. A specific interest here is deferred maintenance. In my written testimony it includes tables listing sharious assets the Forest Service owns and maintains and the deferred maintenance associated with them. Im not going to cite all that here, but just to roughly identify the portfolio were talking about, the Forest Service maintains 370,000 miles of road, including 6,000 bridges. We have 158,000 miles of trails, including over 7,000 trail bridges. We have almost 40,000 buildings, including administrative buildin buildings, research buildings, fire operations, employee housing, and importantly 17,000 toilet structures. I think you know deferred maintenance is scheduled maintenance that doesnt get done. This has a dollar value and accumulates over time. As a result of deferred maintenance, the state of the Forest Services infrastructure has fallen far behind whats necessary to meet the needs of our forests and forest users. Today the Forest Service has a deferred maintenance backlog of more than 5. 2 billion. Our Capital Improvement budget has not kept up with needed maintenance. The president s budget for fiscal year 2020 includes a Public Lands Infrastructure Fund that allocates moneys for deferred maintenance on the National Forest system. Another forest Funding Source for Forest Service infrastructure comes from the federal highway administrations federal Lands Transportation Program or fltp. Interestingly while our Forest Service has more miles of publicly accessible road and four times as many bridges as any other federal Land Management agency, the agency only receives about 5 of funding for this program. So in addition to funding, the agency is doing its part to reduce deferred maintenance by other means. Were taking bold steps to streamline our Environmental Review processes and speed up important work that could protect communities, livelihoods, and resources. The revised nepa rules will make it easier to maintain and repair the infrastructure people need to use and enjoy their public lands, those roads, trails, campgrounds, and other facilities. We have continued to use a Conveyance Authority provided by congress to sell facilities that are no longer needed and use the proceeds to address other infrastructure needs. The leasing authority, we just received from the 2018 farm bill, will also be helpful. Travel management which requires us to look at our Transportation System and identify roads and trails most needed for access and develop a plan for those that are not as needed is another strategy to reduce deferred maintenance. And the federal lands recreation enhancement act, has enabled us to keep up with needed maintenance at heavily used developed recreation sites across the country. So funding, innovations, efficiencies, and partners are all key to taking care of these important assets. Managing healthy infrastructure is an important part of our job. It supports our ability to care out our mission. Im very grateful to you for having the Forest Service in this conversation today. I look forward to telling our story. Thank you. Thank you so much, ms. Lago. Ms. Archaluta, welcome. Thanks, Ranking Members and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for holding todays hearing to examine deferred needs on our public lands and potential solutions. My name is elizabeth archaluta, cosupervisor appearing in that role and behalf of the National Association of counties, naco, and the nations 3,069 counties. Cocomino counties is a Proud Community to one of the most important places in our public lands system including grand canyon National Park, glen Canyon National recreation area, and the National Forest. Our county is the second largest by area in the lower 48 states, spanning an area of over 18,000 square miles and has a population of roughly 140,000 residents. We understand the need to ensure the public has access to federal public lands. Our livelihood as a community depends on it. I hope cocimios story will help drive solutions to bring deferred maintenance back down to sustainable levels within federal agencies. 62 of counties nationwide contain federal land. A federal and federal policies pertaining to these lands have a direct impact on the quality of life and economic wellbeing of our local communities, especially in gateway communities that host millions of visitors each year. However, the deteriorating state of the infrastructure on federal lands has caused significant alarm. When these Access Points fall into disrepair it can impact the health and welfare of residents and visitors. It is imperative congress act to reduce this burden on our Natural Resources and people. In our county, the grand canyon, last year alone hosted 6. 3 million visitors who spent 947 million. That spending support 13,000 jobs in the county, providing a 1. 2 billion Economic Impact to our region. Within the county, the National Parks Service Estimates approximately 330 million of deferred maintenance at the grand canyon alone, and 32 million at glen canyon. In the grand canyon, the most pressing need is the replacement of the transcanyon Water Pipeline. The water delivery line from the north to the south rim. This pipeline was constructed in 1965 and was expected to last 40 years. The pipeline serves as the lone source of Potable Water and breaks down often. While the park has a plan to replace the pipeline, it is long past its prime and has taken far too long to secure the resources. This project alone will cost somewhere near 1 00 million an will take 3. 5 years to complete. Also at the grand canyon, theres a significant issue with housing and congestion due to the inadequate investment in facilities. Lodges and facilities are not up to date for todays tourism demands, nor is there adequate employee housing. There is vehicle congestion due to roadways not being adequate for the influx of visitors. Federal public lands in arizona face a significant backlog of road and trail repairs. Nearly half of the deferred maintenance backlog within the state is due to poorly maintained roads and trails. The their limits the ability of this limits the ability of campers, hikers to enjoy the lands. Snowball road is a paved road leading to the snowball mount resort and is used for tens of thousands of skiers and other tourists year round. The road is the main connection to one of our busiest tourist areas and was last paved in 1990. The annual maintenance funds do not cover any Major Repairs or future paving. 9 million is needed for this reconstruction. We have a long history of partnering with our federal agencies. For almost a century, have maintained lake mary road, a 48mile u. S. Forest service road that serves 2,100 vehicles today. 70 of which are for recreational purposes. We worked with the u. S. Department of transportation to secure 9 million from the essential federal lands highway addition to pulverize, grade, and repave 17 miles of road. Through our resource advisory economies or raecs we have partnered to improve trails and roads offing views of our natural landscapes. County supported the adjustments congress made to racs and the requirement to the farm bill which made it easier for small Population Counties to form a rac and form restoration work in the forests. Counties are excited that Congress Expanded the Good Neighbor authority so we can have greater opportunities to work with our federal partners on Forest Health and access issues including road construction. Chairman murkowski, ranking mnuchin, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to share coco in this nos story. Our federal lands serve as a testimony to the commitment to forestation. Counties urge congress to enact legislation to tackle the deferred maintenance backlog so that we can continue to lead the world in providing an Outdoor Recreation experience that is second to none and to ensure a robust economy for counties. Thank you. Ms. Archuletta, thank you so much. Mr. Pescar . Chairman, Ranking Member, members of the committee, thanks for inviting me to be with you today. The mission of the Public Lands Alliance is to connect, strengthen, and represent the nonprofit partners of americas public lands. They are operational partners of parks, forests, refuges, conservation lands, enhancing the Visitor Experience and contributing more than 250 million annually to their stewardship. On americas public lands, it is impossible to separate infrastructure from the work of nonprofit partners. Whether operating a Residential Learning Center or retail store, partners rely on that infrastructure. Chairman mentioned polychrome pass. Wonderful organizations like Denali Education Center rely on access to the heart of the park if they can conduct their amazing discovery camps and backcountry adventures for youth. Groups like at the same time, nonprofit organizations have long helped reduce deferred maintenance on public lands. The atlation trail con sense see enlists almost 6,000 volunteers to steward that 2,200 miles of mps Forest Service and private land corridor. The friends of Ottawa National wildlife refuge in ohio recently helped fund three parking lots for hunting access and aided in opening three fishing and kayak Access Points, but the refuge needs to have the waters of lake erie maintained andin responsib ways, its going to take the federal government to help them do. It im honored to share the stories and recommendations of these incredible partners and ask you to consider three recommendations. First, establish a dedicated, reliable, sizable Funding Source for the National Parks service, yes, but also the usda Forest Service. Fish and Wildlife Service, bureau of Land Management, that reduces the existing federal public lands maintenance backlog by at least 50 . A major investment is needed. Philanthropy wants to help. Recreation fees will absolutely help, and there are ways to improve both. But a major investment is needed. We comment the committee, especially senators alexander, king, portman, and warner for your leadership on s500, ropa, we strongly support it. Yet all management agencies face the challenges to Resource Management and the imperative to be accessible to all visitors. Visitors are rarely concerned which agency is managing the lands that they access, but they do want the lands and infrastructure maintained properly. We hope you can address that. Our second recommendation, incentivize philanthropy and nonprofit support for critical deferred maintenance. Philanthropy may not be able to solve every problem, but meaningful gifts can be inspired by leveraging federal funds. The centennial challenge and the National Parks Service Points away. We have seen tremendous work at acadia, at great smoky mountains, weve seen it at Harpers Ferry park association, able to raise major grants as part of the centennial challenge to restore a civil warera home. Trails, recreation areas, historic structures, philanthropy will help with these even if they wont help with your sewage system. Unfortunately, the current version of ropa does not offer similar leverage or incentives that things like the centennial challenge do. That seems to be an opportunity. As the Committee Considers ropa again this year we urge you to authorize a onetoone matching opportunity for federal moneys similar to the challenge. But with two caveats. First, matching donations should only be used for those projects truly deemed the most critical by our Land Management agencies. We need to make sure that that is where the big pot of money you might provide goes. And second, projects funded with matching donations, again at at least 50 , need to be taken care of quickly. We need to respect what donors are bringing to the process. It will be the only way to inspire future gifts. We hope by opening the kind of opportunity that this challenge has provided to the National Parks service we might also stimulate that interest in philanthropy at to a greater degree in some of our other public lands. The third recommendation, expand the authority and capacity of Land Management agencies to partner with nonprofit partners. Do more with conservation corps. Theyre fabulous. Think about your hiring authority so we get the right people in place to do all the work were talking about. But currently, i must note, federal law prohibits if you bring some private dollars and federal dollars to the same construction project, the only way you can do it on a federal land is if the federal government goes through all of its contracting, all of the everything related to it, and we know that can be a problem especially when hiring is tough. We urge you to address that loophole and see if a nonprofit is willing to put up more than 50 of the funds for a construction project and has the sophistication to handle it, as many do. Maybe they can take the lead. In conclusion, i thank you for your commitment to dramatically reduce deferred maintenance on public lands, for making that substantial federal effort, and for working with us to find better ways to include nonprofits in the process. Thank you so much. Thank you. I really appreciate that perspective. Ms. Wall, welcome. Dear chairman murkowski, Ranking Member mnuchin, and members of the committee, this hearing represents an extraordinary bipartisan opportunity to explore how we can improve Recreation Infrastructure essential to outdoor pursuits on our public lands and waters. We thank you for your leadership on this issue. Were the Largest Coalition of the reaction trade associations representing over 50,000 businesses and covering the full breadth of Outdoor Recreation activities. Together our industry accounts for 2. 2 of the u. S. Gdp, contributing 734 billion in economic output. Increasing visitation and a growing deferred maintenance backlog negatively impact only the recreation industry but the visitors, jobs, and communities who rely on it. More than one billion of the backlog in our National Parks is attributed to recreation assets such as campgrounds, marinas, and trails. While the National Parks hold the largest share of the overall backlog, all Land Managements face needs that jeopardize outside access and enjoyment. This calls for a National Commitment to the gray, green, and blue infrastructure on our public lands and waters. We commend the sponsors of the bipartisan restore our parks act, some who are here today, for offering a solution to this growing problem. We also urge adequate appropriations for Agency Maintenance budgets and programs like the land and Water Conservation fund. We recognize recent increased appropriations to these accounts which we very much appreciate. And it is critical that appropriations continue to trentrend in this direction much there is not enough to address the backlog thats accrued over decades. When visitors participate in Outdoor Recreation, they spend money on vehicles, gear, food, lodging, and more. Contributing 65 billion in annual tax revenue to federal coffers. Additionally, much of americas Recreation Infrastructure is associated with Revenue Streams such as licenses, entrance, activity and permit fees, and excise and fuel taxes. We should work to harness the full potential of these private contributions paired with public dollars. We also support policies that effectively prioritize resources and facilitate Public Private partnerships to help ease the maintenance backlog and enhance the Visitor Experience. I will briefly outline five such ideas that do not require new federal funding. One, recognize high use in Revenue Generating assets in the maintenance allocations. So when sites such as marinas and campgrounds are in disrepair, the government is losing important Revenue Streams that could alleviate the backlog at these sites and in adjacent areas. Land management agencies should harness the fee potential of these popular sites by identifying assets that attract visitation and fee revenue. Additionally, agencies should prioritize potential recreationrelated closures provided opportunities for partners to step up and continue access to these sites. Two, we should ensure appropriate funding for the recreation trails program. Funded by a tax, rtp develops and maintains motorized and n nonmotorized trails. Its 85 million annually, a quarter of the 270 million that users way every year. If the majority of fuel taxes paid by users went directly into this program, millions more would be available to further leverage the nonfederal match dollars and support hundreds of miles of new and existing trails. Three, promote conservation, Service Corps to rebuild our nations infrastructure. We encourage you to take into account the significant leveraging opportunity of conservation corps. These Cost Effective p3s are part of the deferred maintenance solution. By partnering, agencies can do more with limited budgets while developing the next generation of conservation stewards and an infrastructure workforce. Four, elevate successful models of innovation and Public Private partnerships. P3s can help tackle the 78 million in campground deferred maintenance in our National Parks alone and the maintenance backlog in our parks, marinas, and other sites. Additional fee categories can be used at improved camp sites for wifi access, r. V. Hookups, and rentals of cabins, yurts, equipment and more. Five, fully implement current authorities like the conservation finance models that have supported Mountain Biking trails in the National Forest and the new farm bill authorities that connect Outdoor Recreation to rural economies and Forest Restoration projects. As congress tackles our nations infrastructure challenges, we stand ready to partner with you and incorporate a recreation title in any infrastructure measure thats moving forward. And in furthering todays discussion, strategies that will preserve sustainable recreation for future generations. We look forward to working with you to support the places americans cherish while improving the health and vibrancy of our communities and economy. Thank you. Thank you, ms. Wall. I appreciate all of you for the constructive proposals youve outlined. Kind of putting it in context here. Just you think about you think about the road piece of the maintenance matters, you mentioned, mr. Cameron, 100,000 miles of road within interiors, jurisdiction. I think you mentioned, ms. Lago, that within Forest Service, 370,000 miles of road. Just think about what it takes to maintain those roads on a daily basis. And so it just sucks up so much of this this maintenance budget. That something that i think we need to look keenly at. I want to start my questions with you, ms. Lago. Unlike what we have in the department of interior, Forest Service doesnt appear to have a a comprehensive, longer term strategy for prioritizing and addressing the deferred maintenance. Back in 2017, the usda office of Inspector General recommended the Forest Service develop an integrated strategy in the report language in f. Y. 18 appropriations bill we directed you to develop that strategy. And the agency said it was going to submit a comprehensive Capital Improvement plan in spring of 19. We havent seen the plan yet. Can you tell me what the status of that plan is and what the criteria will be for prioritizing projects that are contained within that deferred Maintenance Plan . Sure, thank you, madam chairman. So as you described, we have completed a draft, comprehensive Capital Improvement plan. And ill talk about maybe three stages of it. The first component for the Capital Improvement plan is our assessments of our various assets. So noting that the roads system is vast, we dont sample all we dont inventory all the roads on an annual basis, rather we characterize the condition of roads using a statistical sample basis. So to get some idea of baseline conditions for roads and to prioritize the roads system. For facilities, we have a fiveyear rolling assessment of Facility Conditions for dams, its two years excuse me, for bridges, its two years, and for dams were working at getting our inventory in a fiveyear cycle of assessment. So based on that assessment, the second phase is using a model, the criteria for prioritizing is, first of all, access to improving forest condition projects. The second is recreation and Public Access. The third is a facility or a site being an economic driver. Fire operations is a fourth. So those the conditions plus the priorities drive a model that help us prioritize projects and then i said there were three components. The third component is some local reflection about projects, you know, from the local regional managers perspective. Let me ask, ms. Lago, because i want to get mr. Cameron on this, too. It doesnt sound like are you ready with your plan. We are circulating it among the leadership to get their feedback and expect to deliver it up here shortly. Well, i would i would appreciate any level of urgency that you can assign to it. Were trying to highlight where we are with this backlog. And so one of the things that we know is we are really in bad shape when it comes to the deferred maintenance. So id like to think that were not spending so much time trying to figure out whether or not we have a problem, we have a problem, but whats our plan, whats our prioritization. We know we dont have all the money that we want. But we do need to get moving. Let me turn to you, mr. Cram mr. Cameron quickly. This relates to fish and Wildlife Service. As we look at the budget justifications that are provided to congress, fish and wildlife has actually been able to reduce its deferred maintenance from approximately 3 billion in f. Y. 09 to 1. 3 billion in fiscal year 18. So of the four Land Management agencies, they were the only one to be able to reduce their deferred maintenance, they actually cut it by more than 50 . I guess im trying to figure out what are they doing right that the other agencies are not are not able to adopt. Can you give us some ideas as to what theyve been able to implement that we might be able to replicate elsewhere . One thing i can say, chairman murkowski, is in the president s budget request for the fish and wildlife, the National Wildlife refuge system, and the National Fish hatchery system, weve prioritized trying to protect those assets. But still the challenge is enormous compared to the resources that are available. Id be delighted for the record to provide you how the fish and Wildlife Service has prioritized this and approached it, though. I would appreciate that. I think it would be instructive to everyone, whether its what Forest Service is doing with their plans or elsewhere. Were looking for best practices. If somebodys doing something right we want to recognize that. Let me turn to senator mnuchin. Manchin. Thank you so much. Youre up. I enjoyed all of yalls presentation. Ms. Wall, youre coming at it from the private sector, but basically you had recommendations of how we could start curing some of this, and i really appreciate that. I would come back to mr. Cameron and mr. Lago, basically coming from the governments point of view. On some of the things that ms. Wall talked about, is that not doable . Why would you all not be taking some of that Public Private . I dont i just dont think we can print enough money to take care of the problems. And the public is not going to stand for us just throwing money at something that we never cure the problem. And i think it comes back to you from the standpoints of public lands availability, people that will pay or will they pay something, or should we not have a kind of a combination of some thats open ended to where they can just enjoy the beauty of what we have, but if they want to enjoy some of the privileges and entrees, if you will, then theyre willing to pay reasonable. This has to be worked out some way. If it takes legislation, i was talking, i think chairman murkowski and myself are in a bipartisan way would find a way to work with all of you. Ms. Archuleta, youre in the thick of it there. I know and ive been there, so beautiful. But on that then youre going to say does that put pressure from a political standpoint locally, does that put pressure on us. And can we withstand that because we have something to show for it. I would go to you two first, mr. Cameron, mr. Lago. The things that were recommended, she had five specific points. I dont know if you all heard them, if you want me to repeat them or she can repeat some of them. Theyre pretty straightforward. Its basically Public Private. I think that would sell well with all of our colleagues. So mr. Cameron, if you want to comment on that. Yes, thank you, senator. I think Public Private partnerships are certainly a valuable way to move ahead. I would point out that there are some models the committee might want to look at as senator heinrich and senator mcsally and garner know, the bureau of reclamation, for instance, has situations where local irrigation districts manage the infrastructure on reclamation projects. That might be a model that we might be able to think about in this context. I think one of the the simplest thing, and i dont mean to interrupt, but our time will be running short. Recognizing how use of revenuegenerating areas is pretty simple. What has the highest activity. What is the reasonable fee to try to keep that repairable if you will . Have those boon een have youe inventory . Ms. Lago . Yes, sir, our scheme includes, a, revenue generation, or the economic importance of the asset in question. But also the opportunity for partnerships for that asset. Ms. Wall mentioned the wayne National Forest and their conservation finance project for a Mountain Biking trail. Your question was how do we get more of these. That particular tool is new, and you know, folks arent as skilled or not as familiar with how to go about attracting that capital. But its definitely again, i hate to interrupt you but i can tell you this, you have states doing very, very innovative, creative things. Have you been partnering up or looking at the states that have been most successful . Have you used some of those as your models, ms. Wall . Do you use some of the states as your models . Yes. Give an example we do escondido shooting in West Virginia skeet shooting in West Virginia at the state parks. People wanted activity. Its been wonderful. We put the magic carpet rides in for the tubing and all this because people wanted to use it. But they pay for it. And theyre not theyre not griping. I mean, they love a good facility. Right. And im just thinking were behind the curve because the mentality is dont worry, weve got a Printing Press here, and well make more money. I just somehow weve got to get you all partnering up with the ones that have been successful. Ms. Archuleta, if you can speak from the standpoints of a local boots on the ground, putting your face and your ability on the public the public trust if you will. Absolutely. What do you think you can do . Well, yes, sir, i do want to address it one way. I do want to talk about the local economy and the recreation economy and what how that affects counties. Wee an example in cocomino county where we completed a comprehensive study that looked at the impacts of the infrastructure on the north rim of the grand canyon and its effect on our tourism economy. The north rim is only open may 15th to aoctober 15th. We found that is due to the fact that pipes may freeze during colder climates. We did a study. What if it was open two weeks before that and two weeks after that. Those four weeks. What would it do to the economy in the county . We found that if we were open for four more weeks, it would generate 14 million during just that fourweek operating season. So imagine what could be obtained if we appropriately added infrastructure to keep the north rim operating year round. When i go to the north rim, do i pay for that . Yes, you do. Im paying coming in you do. I know i did before. I didnt know yes, both the north and the south. Thats a specific fee for each one . Correct. Not just one fee covers all . Well, it depends which entrance you go in. It covers all. But the north rim is only open, you know, shorter period of time. And so what were saying is that people want to go to north rim because, of course, the vistas different, the experience is different. And its only open a shorter period of time. Has the fees been adjusted . Fees have been adjusted throughout the route people arent complaining about fees . You do not get feedback on the fees . No, but they want a quality experience when they go. They complain when we have to bring in portopotties, stagetwo conservation of water, when youre using paper plates and plastic forks because we dont have water because the pipeline is broken to wash dishes. When, you know, the lodges are subpar, people complain about that. The other thing is we find ourselves where people are unprepared to have a tourism experience that is in a very rough terrain. We have people going on flipflops to hike down the grand canyon. And so search and rescue is called in, and counties are the ones that bear that burden. Were, you know, in charge of search and rescue. So we go and we can legislate i dont think we can legislate for ignorance. Thank you. Well, i agree. Thank you. Thank you. Its senators danes whos next. Thank you, senator. I think of our National Parks as the department of first impressions. They are truly a part of what set america apart from the rest of the world. And i get to chair the National Parks subcommittee, a great honor. Ive made finding a solution to our growing maintenance backlog a top priority of mine. And thankfully we have an administration thats also prioritizing this issue. In fact, just last week of all the places that Vice President pence could be, last week, last thursday, he was in yellowstone National Park along with interior secretary bernhart to bring attention to this growing backlog. Id like to thank them both for coming to yellowstone. The Parks Service estimated that montana alone has a 326 million maintenance backlog with glacier National Park totaling 131 million, and yellowstone National Park, which we share with wyoming, i think the senator from wyoming would say its more than a share, they have most of it actually in wyoming, that backlog is growing close to 600 million. And in conversations ive had, i wouldnt be surprised if that number goes up even higher. If left unchecked there will be impacts on our outdoor economy. There will be impacts to our gateway communities like gardener, cook city, and others. Thankfully congress is working together in taking action again with this bipartisan restore our parks act. Im grateful the ranking on the subcommittee, angus king, and i and rest of the committee are working in a truly a bipartisan fashion to put legislation forward that would bring a solution to this problem. I hope we can pass this out of committee soon and ultimately send this to president trumps desk. Its going to take more than just money to fix this issue. Mr. Cameron, Yellowstone Park just finished the rehabilitation of the canyon overlooks and trails which helps facilitate more access to this incredibly beautiful area. There are many more projects in montana that increase Public Access and want yellowstone to improve the safety of employee housing. Question is, how does the National Parks service prioritize these projects . Is it random . Do you have a system in place that prioritizes safety and access projects like the ones in montana over others . Senator danes, thank you for that question. I know secretary bernhart was delighted to bring the Vice President out to yellowstone last week. And youre right, the scale of the problem is enormous. Not just in montana, wyoming, but nationwide, as senators and the committee have observed. The Parks Service has a long established priority system with multiple complex variables to set priorities. Theyve been following this process for quite a long time. Public health and safety, Employee Health and safety, and visitor access are all the priorities. Id be happy to, you know, submit for the record a detailed description of the Parks Services rather complex and well thoughtout ranking process. That would be helpful, thank you. How do we facilitate more partnerships with federal agencies, for example like the dot, or private groups like the montana conservation corps to address the maintenance backlog in the parks . Volunteer organizations, nonprofit organizations, state and local government partners are really important contributors to to the challenge. I suspect that, you know, there are some taxrelated bonding issues that might get in the way of Public Private partnerships in terms of private sector financing. There are potentially challenges with who manages the construction contract as was mentioned earlier. Whether the federal Acquisition Regulation applies. Those are things that could be explored to make Public Private partnerships more effective and more common. As i mentioned a couple of minutes ago before you were able to join the hearing, the bureau of reclamation has an interesting model where local water districts manage most of the infrastructure on reclamation projects. And perhaps thats a model that we might want to explore. The commission of reclamation would not want me to miss the opportunity to point out that she has an infrastructure issue in the bureau of reclamation, as well. Thats another topic. Thank you. Speaking of maintenance backlog, i want to talk about the Forest Service. The Forest Service also has a growing backlog. In fact, montana has the secondlargest share with 459 million in deferred maintenance. This can have a major impact on montanas outdoor economy, estimated to be around 7 billion annually. Our Recreation Community is facing trail closures in forest plans across the state for bureaucratic and litigation issues and is adding insult to injury when the Forest Service closes trails because they arent able to maintain them. Ms. Lago, ive heard concerns from private as well as public groups that are willing and able to provide trail maintenance and other services that the red tape and bureaucratic process can be burdensome and they disincentivize these partnerships. What is the administration doing to streamline the process, to ensure that these groups and these coalitions can volunteer to help address this backlog . Thank you, senator danes. Youre right. Volunteers and conservation organizations are very important to help us keep up with needed maintenance. Last year we had over 1,900 ftes, thats fulltime equivalents, volunteering in the Trail Program alone. We just couldnt do it without them. In the past year, weve worked at streamlining and improving our agreements process. So for us to Work Together with somebody that wants to do project work, we need some kind of instrument, agreement. And weve had inadequate and inconsistent training across the agency for people who knew what type of instrument to use. Thats some of the red tape folks telling you about. But we have added capacity in our agreements staff, streamlined training and made it available on line. So were working hard to meet people where they are, who want to help us do those maintenance projects. Thank you. Thank you, senator. Senator heinrich . First, i want to thank the chair and the ranking fmember fr holding this hearing and particularly including the bureau of Land Management, the fish and wildlife significant, and the National Parks. I think a lot of people are aware of the parks backlog. The vast majority of Outdoor Recreation and Economic Activity in many of the western states actually happens on nonpark Service Public lands. I want to touch on what senator danes raised for just a moment because one of the biggest problems in terms of limiting volunteers and activities that can really help leverage what the agencies can do is the lack of staff that are actually assigned to help volunteer groups and private organizations do that work. You know, today Outdoor Recreation is the singlelargest driver of activity on our public lands. But our assignment of staff is stuck decades in the past. Weve seen this in many places in new mexico where there is real willingness to get on the ground and do something. But theres no one assigned at the staff level to facilitate that. Mr. Cameron and miss lago, what are the Forest Service and the department of interior doing to change that . Senator, i appreciate that question. If we can identify specific instances, we would be dliefted to be delighted to look at those individually across the board. The secretary made it clear that hes interested in promoting a partnership with nonprofits and state and local governments. And where, you know, were eager to perhaps more effectively communicate that message and that the need to actively engage with volunteer groups. Volunteers provide roughly 10,000 fte worth of i realize that. What im suggesting is that we look at the number of people who are assigned to traditional activities, whether that be grazing permits, forest management, oil and gas permits, and compare that with how many were actually assigned to facilitate permits and also Public Private partnerships to help facilitate some of this. Ms. Lago . Sir, id just i want to completely agree that as people who want to partner with us have gone up and up and up, the staff available for those programs has gone down. Part of the reason for that is over the last ten years, you know, we get our budget in program funding. Fire is a program, recreation is a program, grazing is a program. And as we have had to devote more of our budget to firefighting, the budgets in those other programs have decreased. I think with the fire funding fix were going to be yeah. Thats exactly where you should be going. We have actually, you know this committee worked very hard to fix the fire borrowing situation. As an agency, you need to take advantage of that. Agreed. To be able to fund those positions. Ms. Lago, can the Forest Service continue to maintain the system that you have today . No, i think the answer is no. Not 370,000 miles of road. We dont open all of the roads system to passenger travel, only about 18 is open. Right. About 30 is what we call put to bed. Its blocked off and not accessible, but we keep it because we can potentially need to open it for firefighting or some kind of emergency access. But no. We dont. Which is why travel management is so important, as you try to address these infrastructure needs. Ms. Wall, i want to ask you, has your organization ever done analyses to figure out how much additional annual economic output or Economic Activity would be leveraged if our public lands were fully capitalized . If the campgrounds were all open. If the trails that are on the maps today were open, if the basic infrastructure, the bathrooms in yellowstone and the things that we hear about, if all of that was fully capitalized, what would do we have any idea what that would mean for additional Economic Activity . Thank you. We certainly dont have an idea of what the total of that would be. We have great anecdotes and stories of just a campground that the Tennessee Valley authority partnered with p3. It was closed. No revenue, no Economic Activity in the local community. This p3 partnership opened the campground. Its at full capacity every day its open in the year. Not only is, you know, the economy and this Rural Community benefiting, but certainly the Forest Service and the Tennessee Valley authority because theyre getting money from this contract. So we have examples of that all across the board. It would be great to see, you know, the full breadth of that. And i suspect that story could be replicated time and time again in state after state after state. Im out of time. I want to point out the fact that the north american model of Wildlife Conservation is the envy of the world because for the better part of a century, hunters and anglers have put their money where their mouth is. They stepped up, and they taxed themselves to say if we dont do this were not going to have a sustainable resource. And i think we we might owe it to ourselves to start having that conversation around Outdoor Recreation, as well. Ill join you in that conversation, senator. Senator lee . Thank you, mad am chair. There are a lot of things the federal government does, a lot of them are unpopular. Of the most unpopular parts of the federal government, you probably have the irs, even more unpopular, congress, whose Approval Rating seems to hover these days between 9 and 11 , making it less popular than fidel castro in america. It depends on whether they poll immediate family. Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. It could be worse. Yeah. Might even be worse in some of those polls. But one of the few things the federal government does that is popular exists in the National Parks service. People love their National Parks. They want to be able to use them, they dont want to see them threatened. So many are concerned, particularly in states like mine where we have a lot of National Parks that are national treasures. People are concerned when they hear about the maintenance backlog and the fact that 62 of the public lands backlog can be found within the National Parks service. Thats of concern to them. Well start with you, mr. Cameron. Would would you agree that under certain conditions the Public Interest might be better served by finding ways to fund the backlog and to make sure that we maintain adequately our National Parks . Would you agree with that as a general statement . I certainly would, senator lee. I think we need to look at any and all options and seriously consider them. Would you agree with me that there are some lands that have been identified as suitable for disposal by the federal government . Yeah, yes, senator. General Services Administration runs an annual process to try and identify those. Do you have any sense as to what kind of revenue could be generated if that land were disposed of . Not off the top of my head. I think the estimates are probably in the single billions of dollars. But i dont know the latest estimate from gsa. Okay. That is a large sum of money certainly. Do you know how often the blm evaluates its lands for their suitability for disposal . Blm has a regular planning process on districtbydistrict basis on the cycle. Memory serves me correctly, i believe its a fiveyear cycle. Okay. Do you have any idea approximately how many acres of land have been deemed suitable for disposal . No, i do not. But im happy to provide that for the record. Okay. Would you agree that under certain circumstances it might make sense to sell some of that land in order to be able to keep up with the maintenance backlog in order to overcome it . So the general Services Administration has a process in place for divesting of federal lands and federal assets. And the tail end of the process, it can be sold, yes. Ms. Lago, how about you do you know how many acres of land approximately the Forest Service has identified as suitable for disposal . I dont believe we have authority for disposing of land. We have authority to convey facilities in the land associated with it. But we dont tip kathie lypical of land. We use it for land exchanges where were trying to block up ownership or or obtain some critical Wildlife Habitat or connectivity or Something Like that. Youre saying theres no regular evaluation of Forest Service land to consider whether all of it needs to be under federal ownership. Thats right. Okay. Mr. Cameron, back to you for a minute. Across all the federal Land Management agencies, compliance with federal regulation contributes to the massive maintenance backlog, the very same backlog that were here to discuss today. What when your agency estimates the cost of a project, do you separate the costs of Regulatory Compliance from the rest of the costs of construction . Senator, i dont believe we do that. We take for granted that we have to comply with the federal Acquisition Regulation. We take for granted that we have to comply with davisbacon act where it applies, for instance, and various other constraints. Id point out that the National Historic preservation act can sometimes produce some challenges. If we need to try to reproduce concrete the way it was made in the 1720s, that can be a lot more expensive than the way its made now. Ive heard. You cant just get that at the home depot. Would there be a way of calculating that that breakdown . Either on the seems to me that it would be helpful if you could calculate that cost either on an individual project level or or anin addition to that having it on the maintenance backlog level, as well so that we can figure out what percentage of the maintenance backlog generally is attributable to Regulatory Compliance and what percentage of the cost on any particular project is attributesable to the same . Senator, i know weve done some thinking along those lines. What id like to do is respond for the record to try to give you a more accurate and complete answer about how we might approach that. Okay. I see my time has expired. Thank you. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, senator lee. Senator king . Madam chair, i want to thank you and the Ranking Member for this hearing on this really important project. Im sitting here thinking about politics and partisanship. This is probably the most conservative bill before the congress in every sense of the word. Conservative because were literally conserving. Were protecting something that has been handed to us by our forefathers and mothers and predecessors. But its also conservative because its all about paying down debt. It hasnt been mentioned so far today, but deferred maintenance is dead. Just like its dead on the dead on the balance sheet. Once its looked at that way it eases, it seems, some concerns that have been expressed about this bill. Were not adding to debt, were actually diminishing our National Debt because these problems will have to be taken care of someday. And when they are, it will be more expensive. So theres interest on the debt. So i think thats why this is so important, and im so glad to see that theres bipartisan support for these various bills. Number two, one of the reasons this is urgent for me is, i did a little calculation. I looked at the top ten national visited National Parks. Most visited National Parks. The top ten. And their acreage. And its an interesting calculation of visitors per acre. And that is a proxy for pressure on the park. And it really interesting. Great smoky mountains, most visited National Park in the country, which was surprising to me because a factor of two, 21 people per acre. 21 visitors per acre. Zion, 29. More typically, yosemite 5. 3. Yellowstone, 1. 8. Acadia in maine, 74 people per acre. In some cases, ten or 20 times the visitation. So thats why this is an urgent problem for me because our park is being loved to death. Its an absolutely wonderful place. And thats why all those people go there. 3. 5 Million People a year to one park in one state that has a population of 1. 3 million. So almost three times the population of maine goes to acadia National Park every year. So this is an urgent priority, both in terms of our responsibility to our predecessors but also our responsibility to the people of america that enjoy these wonderful places. This has been a great hearing because i its been exactly what a hearings supposed to do. Good ideas. I love the matching idea. Im a original cosponsor, as you know, of the restore our parks act. We have a program in maine called the landford maines future program, goes back to the 80s. And the first bond issue was 35 million. We spent 30 million or 28 million buying the fee on just putting in dollars and buying it. The next seven preserved more land than the first 30 because we finally figured out about matching and conservation easement and other things than simply buying the fee. I think matching is a terrific idea. There is, as youve testified, a Philanthropic Community thats very interested in this. And we can basically make our money go further. And i think thats a very important concept. Public private partnerships, again, make our money go further. Volunteers, people that want to spend a summer in the National Park, give them free accommodations in exchange for working five hours a day on trails. I mean, theres theres no end of opportunities here. And miss wall, i like your idea about fix the fee generating places first. If youve got places that are generating fees and theyre not operating, fix those first because then youll get some additional revenue. So far, if you can find a question, youre welcome to it. I havent got tonight a question yet. But but your testimony has been so helpful and succinct. And i do believe that we have to talk broadly about the Forest Service and bureau of public lands. But i dont want to lose the focus on the National Parks. I dont want the best to be the enemy of the good. Weve got a solid bill with a lot of support in both the house and the senate from the administration. And i understand madam chair were looking forward to a possible markup on the are store or parks mission in the future. Thats an indefinite term. Indefinite to get a nod from you. I appreciate that. But i just i think what were talking about here today is so important to the american people. And mr. Pusker, perhaps you can touch on the idea of matching and other ways to make our money go further. Well, i think especially when we talk about acadia, a park founded on private citizens coming together to give of their lands, even create this in the first place. It helps when one of the private citizens names is rockefeller. But we wont go into that. Youre absolutely right. But a lot of them arent named that. The number of people supporting the friends of acadia these days is affidavit unanymously cal. And its astronomical and its not just the rockefellers. God love them. Thank god they were here when they were. Its the folks who want to say, hey, i want to be here, i want to give my entrance fee money, but then i want to do a little bit more. Im going to become a member of the friends of acadia. The opportunity for matching, i do think it is absolutely essential. We know that there is a philanthropic component to being interested in our public lands writ large. We know this. But incentivizing it, especially when the challenge is so big and when we know we have a model that already works seems to be a no brainer for ensuring we move forward productively, not just for the Parks Service, but its certainly been a dream of mine. Wouldnt it be amazing if we took advantage of the amazing challenge costshare authorities that u. S. Forest service, blm, fish and Wildlife Services already have . And provide more dedicated opportunities with that kind of framing like weve done with the centennial challenge. I intend to look into adding language to the restore our park act, additional authority. If you have thoughts, any of you have thoughts we ambassador love wed lo work with you on that. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you. On friday i took the opportunity to take my young interns, there were 12 of us, and we went over to Theodore Roosevelt island. It was a day of service with the Parks Service. And we spent about, i dont know, four hours cleaning up the island there. They wouldnt trust us with any chainsaws, but we did have rakes and wheel barrows. It was a reminder of the volunteer effort. At the same time i looked at the volunteers who had come fror tht one day. Thats a pretty small Little Island and recognizing the level of visitorship that it receives, and you almost feel like you just cant make a difference because the need is so great and there is so few of you. But if you take that approach, we are never going to get anywhere. But it is a reminder of the great partnerships that are out there that exist. We just need to replicate them about another 363 days out of the year. So how we work to do that is going to be important. Lets go to senator mcsally. Thank you, madam chair. Thanks to our panelists. Welcome supervisor archuleta. Proud that you are representing arizona in this conversation. We are so proud that we have the grand canyon in our state, which is this amazing treasure that brings people from all over the world. I was actually up there for the Easter Sunrise Service this year with my mom and it ended up being a bucket list type of event. So we know the importance that these treasures have not just so people experience places like the grand canyon, but its for eco tourism and our communities. You know as a Gateway Community how important that is. Can you elaborate on the importance of the pipeline project . Getting completed as soon as possible, and the implications, should it not be completed, because of whats again, what draws people from all over the world to the grand canyon the impact that would have not just on the park, but also on local communities in our state. Well, thank you very much, senator mcsally. Thank you for the questions. So what we find is the pipeline continuously breaks because of rock falls, and when it breaks it creates a tremendous burden on the visitor and also on the park. And so when people are coming to the grand canyon and people see it as the crown jewel of parks and they want tlo have this vence and then they need to use portable restroom facilities. They are eating from paper plates because the restaurants cannot use the water to wash dishes. The Park Services constantly are scrambling to figure out how can they haul water to the park when the pipeline breaks. And so now they just anticipate it. Right now they are going to level two water restrictions. They are making arrangements for water to be hauled, stored in tanks because they anticipate the pipeline is going to break. So when you have this and people begin to hear about it, visitors, not only is the experience diminished, but people question do we really want to go to the grand canyon National Park. This is a tremendous burden for the economy because we depend on tourists for our economy. As a Gateway Community, flagstaff, williams, all of the surrounding communities that struggle then creates a burden for the counties and for our economy. I had mentioned just about the north rim, and if that was open for four weeks longer, it would mean a 14 million impact to our economy. Additional money coming in. So when you look at our communities, the grand canyon National Park is the lifeblood for our community. We need to make sure that that Water Pipeline is taken care of. It was supposed last 40 years, and it was built in the 1960s. And here it is 2019. So its one of those situations where it needed to happen yesterday. Exactly. And you mentioned in your testimony and the importance of the partnership between local communities and the federal government. I have climbed or hiked mt. Elden many times. Very familiar with lake mary road. How important is it to have local stakeholders like the counties and cities involved and working with the federal government related to these maintenance issues because we are all into this in this toget. I spoke with lake murray road. We are looking to do that with Stoneman Lake road and park insville voed. So were hoping to replicate some kind of connecter. We maintain, of course, school routes on Forest Service property. We have an agreement with the Forest Service to maintain some of the forest roads. And also in talking about the Forest Service, i mean, one of the main infrastructure in our federal forests is our trees. When we are looking to we are looking to make sure that we have forest rest trags aoration health. Kokono county is helping with that. You recently introduced legislation. But we need help from all of the federal government to tet getaway this project underway. We think about our resources in terms of the trees as something that is infrastructure and we need to make sure that we have Forest Health and forest thinning. Thank you. Im running close on time. A different topic on fossil creek. The importance of the 6 million that are needed to repair Forest Service road 708 to get access to fossil creek. I am not sure if you are familiar. There was a meeting scheduled for 60 days that was supposed to happen last week on this topic and it was canceled abruptly. And so a lot of folks are pretty unhappy about that. Can we get your commitment we are going to get that meeting rescheduled immediately . Yes, senator. I am so sorry for that. I will make sure it gets rescheduled immediately. Thank you. I yield back. Miss archuleta, i think you said that deferred maintenance is basically scheduled maintenance that we havent gotten to yet. It hasnt gotten done yet. I wouldnt to have a discussion about investments in cyclic maintenance. This is effectively what were trying to do to avoid the deferred maintenance. Its like a doctor telling you to eat right and you need to get exercise. Of course, this is what we need to do. When we dont do it, then we play catch up on the health end. But id ask you, mr. Cameron, how do we find this balance between the deferred maintenance, which is substantial, and what we have to do to maintain just good health here within our public lands is cyclic maintenance, and as you discuss that walk me through how these decisions are made in terms of whether or not a matter, an issue, a project is part of the cyclic or the deferred. And ill give you my example here. I mentioned paulie chrome pass out in denali. We know that the fix here is going to be extraordinarily costly. Its not going to be easy. In the interim, we have been patching the road together using cyclic funds. So you have got certain areas of the denali park road that are included in the deferred maintenance budget, but paulie chrome pass area is not. So who makes those decisions . How do we make this determination what is deferred and what is in that ongoing scheduled cyclical maintenance . Senator, it varies from borough to borough. At a high level our Land Management burroughs have a process for prioritizing their maintenance budgets. Who has the authority for that . Is it the land managers job . Each park superintendent or refuge manager has the best information about whats happening on their particular properties, and our bureaus have a tool called maximo that mathematically creates a Facility Condition index that gives you information about how much it would cost to replace a particular asset versus the cost of investing in maintenance. So we have each bureau at the National Level has a prioritization process. At the field level its fed up to the national process. And at least in the Parks Service we try to budget Major Investments at the National Level. One exception would be so, for instance, would polychrome pass be viewed as a major investment because of the cost . I would have to look into that. I dont want to mislead you, chairman. I dont know off the top of my head where polychrome pass im wondering, it sounds like with the mat tricks, if it is really expensive we dont want to use cyclical funds for that. We are going to put it in the deferred maintenance category. Then it gets worse and more expensive. So how do we ever achieve this balance . Obviously, we are not in balance yet. How do we get there . I mean, there has been some good ideas most certainly with the Public Private partnerships, more that can be done outside of appropriated funds, fwu seems to but it seems to me that this prioritization issue is something we have not been able to wrap our hands around. Chairman murkowski, we try to emphasizeub