Transcripts For CSPAN3 Senate Commerce Subcommittee On NASA Exploration 20240714

This hearing is call to order. Welcome. 50 years ago, exactly what each week from today, at approximately 9 30 am, 2 astronauts, sitting atop a rocket the size of a navy destroyer, packing 7. 5 Million Pounds of thrust, took off from Kennedy Space center in florida. Roughly 1 Million People had gathered on the ground to watch this historic event. That included half of the u. S. Congress. These 3 astronauts, as one of the newspapers put it at the time, carried with them the hopes of the world. The u. S. 1969. The year before i was born. The astronauts were now im strong, but, and michael collins. And the mission was apollo 11. Armstrong and aldrin went on to make history a little more than 100 hours later. When with more than one third of the earths the earth watching, word listening live. They became the first humans to ever set foot on the moon. The apollo 11 mission would go on to make history again. A little less than 100 hours after that, as the First Mission not only to put men on the moon, but to bring them home safely as well. Although president kennedy had not lived to see it, the bold goal that he had said 8 years earlier had been met. To steal a line from the flight director of the mission, we have shown that what america will there, america will do. America will dare america will do. Today, we rightfully celebrate the limited occasion that is the upcoming 58th anniversary of apollo 11. As president nixon said in a phone call to Neil Armstrong and buzz while they were still on the moon. Because of what they had done, the heavens had become a part of mans world. Indeed, not only did we succeed in putting men on the moon and returning them safety tours, we have gone on to put robotic rivers on distant planets, celestial observatories in orbit that can literally appear into the innings of the universe. We have established a presence in lower orbit that is still there today. However, while it is tempting to focus only on the historic achievements, that were apollo 11, and some of our Witnesses Today will rightly highlight, the moon landing and the entire Apollo Program for that matter did not happen in a vacuum. It was a result of visionary leadership, National Unity, and oldfashioned american tenacity. The success of apollo 11 and our National Space program was also due in large part to the tireless contribution of countless women who were working on the scenes and whose stories have only recently become household names. One of our Witnesses Today, dr. Christine darden was one of the famed Human Computers of nasa. Without her work and the work of other computers, many of them africanamerican women, we never could have sent astronauts into space, let alone brought them home safely. Unfortunately, at the time, dr. Darden and the other Human Computers contributions were hidden and they remained hidden for far too long, relegated to the background. After that movie Hidden Figures came out, a wonderful movie that i commend to everyone, i introduced legislation to rename the street in front of the nasa headquarters as Hidden Figures way. The d. C. City council intern took up the idea just a few weeks ago. I was proud to join dr. Darden and the family of those other during Human Computers at the dedication of the new street sign in front of the nasa headquarters, so that now, a generation, or a century from now, when a little girl or little boy goes to visit nasa, she or he will say, who were they . Tell me their story. As we look at the space landscape today, we see it is far different from the landscape of 1969. America and the soviet union are no longer the only players in space. The government Space Programs are no longer the only game in town. And our technological abilities, both in terms of our ability to plan missions, and how long these missions are, have changed dramatically. What are the next 50 years what do the next 50 years of Space Exploration look like . And what should we seek to accomplish . We need a bold vision, a vision that sees the commercial space industry driving. I have long said that the first trillion or i believe will be made in space. In 50 years, the first trillionaire will be have been made in space. The art,s program is the twin sister of apollo. This time, when we return to the moon, nasa has committed that we will land the first woman on the moon. The First American astronaut who is a woman. Artemis. On behalf of my 2 young daughters, let me say thank you, it is about time. From there, we will move toward having a more permanent and sustainable presence on the moon. And that, ultimately to mars. Just a couple of years ago, i was proud to arthur the bipartisan nasa authorization act, signed into law in which every member of congress and the house and senate in both parties united to say the objective of space expiration for nasa is to go to the red planet and land on mars and the first boot to set foot on the surface of mars will be that of an american astronaut. The next 50 years have the potential to be even more nonsequential. More than the last. That is why im glad to be engaged with Ranking Member kyrsten sinema, Ranking Member cantwell to lay out a bold visionary agenda for nasa and manned Space Exploration, so that america continues to lead the world in exploring space and exploring the great frontiers above us. With that, i recognize senator sinema. Thank you, german cruz for holding the hearing today. As we approach the thank you chairman cruz. It is important for us to look ahead at new strategies and technologies that will maintain the u. S. Leadership in space, grow the economy, and strengthen our countrys security. Thank you dr. Darden, dr. Dittmar for joining us today. 1961 when president kennedy announced the amount ambitious goal for our country to send americans to the moon, we did not anticipate the lasting impacts the mission would have on our nation. At the time, we did not have capabilities or know what was needed for mission success. Apollo 11 showed us what our country and nasa are capable of. It demonstrated to the world thats the United States is the leader in space and chartered the expiration path we continue on today. The most impressive part is that we developed technologies and prepared for the mission on u. S. Soil. My home state of arizona played a critical role. The Data Collected from the Lowell Observatory in flagstaff, arizona was used to make massive the mans service before the mission. The apollo astronauts often spent time in Northern Arizona preparing for the mission. They hiked the grand canyon to learn about geology and visited Meteor Crater to get an up close look at what they would encounter them in. During a test of the first generation spacesuits at sunset crater, also in arizona, nasa learned the suits were not thick enough to withstand damage from rocks, forcing a redesign. The most significant training was done at a lake outside flagstaff. Scientists of the u. S. Geological survey developed a 500 squarefoot lunar environment, including 47 craters, to test rovers, handles and scientific instruments. s efforts show what we can do as a country when faced with a challenge and be successful and achieving our goals. National political support, robust funding, and innovation meet president kennedys goal a reality on july 20, 1969. As we enter the next phase of space expiration return to the moon, when you to continue to utilize american expertise and ingenuity. We need to work closely with our research universities, like the university of arizona and Arizona State university, that provide leadership and do important work in these areas. I am looking forward to holding a hearing on University Partnerships this year in the subcommittee. The United States has made significant technological advances since 1969. And we have a better idea of what is needed to explore space. We still face many challenges. Our workforce is aging and we have not sent humans to space on a nasa spacecraft in a ditch years. We must evaluate the use of taxpayer dollars to achieve our goals and maintain our leadership in space. Thank you again to all of our witnesses. I very much look forward to your testimony today. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you. I would now like to introduce our distinguished panel of witnesses. The first witnesses mr. Jean krantz, who is a retired nasa flight director and fighter pilot. In 1994, after 37 years of legendary federal service, mr. Krantz retired from nasa. After college, mr. Krantz worked as a flight test engineer for mcdonald aircraft, developing the quilt decoy missile for b52 and be 47 aircraft. In 1960, mr. Krantz joined the Nasa Space Task Group at langley virginia and was assigned the position of assistant like director for project mercury. He assumed flight director duties for all project Gemini Missions and was wrenched chief for Flight Control operations. He was selected as division chief for Flight Control in 1968. He continues his duty duties as a flight director for the apollo 11 Lunar Landing before taking over the leadership of the apollo 13 tiger team. He was discharged from the air force reserves as a captain in 1972. Mr. Krantz has received many awards and honors, including the president ial medal of freedom, which you received from president nixon for the apollo 13 mission. The designation is a distinguished member of the Senior Executive service by president rick in. Mr. Krantz received a bacerra science degree in aeronautical engineering from Parks College up st. Louis university. A bachelor of science degree. Our second witness is dr. Christine darden. It is good to see you again. Dr. Darden spent and seemed ready 7 years at nasa becoming one of the worlds experts on sonic boom minimization and supersonic wing design. During her career, she was appointed as the technical leader of nasas Sonic Boom Group of the Vehicle Integration branch of the High Speed Research program, where she was responsible for developing the Sonic Boom Research Program internally at nasa. In 1999, she was appointed as the director in the per gram Management Office of the aerospace performing center, where she was responsible for Langley Research in air Traffic Management and other aeronautics programs, managed at other nasa centers. Dr. Darden also served as a technical consultant on numerous government and private projects. She is the author of more than 50 publications in the field of high lift, we design, and supersonic flow, flap design, sonic boom prediction, and sonic boom minimization. She earned a bachelor of science degree in Mathematics Education from Hampton Institute , a masters of science degree in applied mathematics, Virginia State college, and a phd in Mechanical Engineering from George Washington diversity. Our third witness is dr. Marilyn dittmar, who is the president and ceo of the coalition for deep space x expiration. A 25 year veteran of the base industry, dr. Dittmar assumed leadership of the coalition in 2015. Prior to joining the coalition from 2012 through 2014, she served as a member of the National Research Council Committee on human spaceflight. Prior to that, she acted as a special advisor to the Nasa Astronaut Office before her appointment as boeing chief scientist for commercial utilization of the agency. Dr. Dittmar coordinated r d managed Flight Operations for the boeing company on the interNational Space station program. Dr. Dittmar is a fellow of the National Research society and an associate fellow of the American Institute for astronautics and aeronautics. Additionally, in june 2018, she was appointed to the Users Advisory Group of the National Space canceled. In october that year, she was appointed by the secretary of the department of transportation to the commercial Space Transportation Advisory Committee of the faa. Our fourth witness is mr. Homer hickman. He is best known for his memoir rocket boys about his West Virginia the building model rockets. The book was subsequently made into the film october sky. Mr. Hickam is a vietnam veteran of the Fourth Infantry Division and a 30 year careers with the Army Missile Command and nasa. He trained astronauts on such missions as space, and the Hubble Space Telescope repair mission. He rounded out his career by negotiating with the russians on how to train crews on the interNational Space station. Besides his career as a writer, mr. Hickam presently as chairman of the board of the u. S. Space and Rocket Center in huntsville, alabama. Mr. Hickam received a bachelor of science degree in Industrial Engineering from virginia tech. Our final witness is mr. Eric stormer, the president of the commercial space flight better ration also known as csf. Cff is the largest trade organization dedicated to promoting the universal spaceflight, pursuing ever higher levels of safety and sharing best practices and expertise throughout the industry. Before working at csf, mr. Stormer served as Vice President of Government Relations at analytical graphics a, agi. Mr. Stormer join agi in 2002. While there, he oversaw all washington operations and represented the commercial off theshelf products and technology to defense, intelligence, civil governments and other sectors in the aerospace industry. For more than 2 decades, mr. Sommer has served as an officer in the United States army and army reserves. Is currently assigned to the pentagon and the office of the deputy chief of staff army logistics. Mr. Sommer earned a master of arts degree in Public Administration from George Mason University and a bachelor of arts degree in Political Science and history from Mount Saint Mary college. Welcome to each of you. Mr. Krantz, you may begin. Would you please turn your mike on . I have a great button. It is now read. Normally, green means go. I have to say i never imagined i would give you technical advice. [ laughter ] i will start over. Confora, acting member senator sinema, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss nasas early and future Human Spaceflight Programs. This is an exciting time for me and nasa and the base industry. As we celebrate one of our nations greatest technological achievements. Lending 2 american astronaut sxren and returning them safely to earth on the apollo 11 mission. I was fortunate to be a part of that team for that endeavor. Going up, i could have never imagined i would serve in such a role. As a young boy, all he wanted to do was flight. On becoming an aviator, i learned and received an appointment to the u. S. Naval academy. Unfortunately, i fields the entrance physical. I believe my dream i believe my dream was gone. Obtained a loan and attended college at st. Louis university and earned a degree in aeronautical engineering and i received an air force rotc commission. After time is a fighter pilot, i elected to reserve status in 1958. I was assigned a Flight Engineer on a 52 program. At completion of the Flight Test Program i applied to nasa. I was selected to to join the group at langley in 1960. B52 program. On the mercury mission, assert on a craft as the assistant flight director. Having never met him before, our initial introduction was short and to the point. He tapped me on the shoulder said i am chriscraft, you work for me. I want you to go down to the cape right some mission rules, when you are ready, give me a call and i will come down and watch. That was 2 weeks on the job. As Space Missions became more challenging and the stakes higher, we grew with an incredibly capable team. We developed a set of values recalled the foundations. He guided our operations for the past 50 years and still of light to our today. For the past several weeks, i have done dozens of interviews for local and national media. A number of reporters have question, should we go back to the moon . Should we go to mars directly and skip the moon . Can we do it again . Why have we not done it already . All good questions. Should be go back to the moon . The answer is simply, yes, no question. There are tremendous opportunities. The Lunar Missions would provide art space industry missions in developing the new capabilities and technologies for spaceflight missions to the moon and beyond. My answer can we do it again and why have we not done it already is much more complex. That is really why i am here today, to offer some perspective based on my experience as a leader of one of the spaceflight teams which accomplish president kennedys 1961 mandate. We landed an american on the moon and return him safely to earth. The 1960s were not dissimilar to what we have today. President kennedy face a confident soviet union and a sabine china in the apples republic of china. We were at the beginning of the vietnam war and the domestic turmoil over civil rights was building. Yet, kennedy pops goal was timely and masterful. Utilizing the challenge of Space Exploration to unify our nation, and demonstrate the technical abilities of the United States. Today, we have the same issues. One critical important element is missing. Candies kennedy pops minute was the impetus. They was a National Unity that assured our success. I believe that today, in our country, unity is necessary for great effort and is lacking in our country, our government, and in the space industry. Resident kennedys mandate was the impetus. We must be willing to provide the resources. We have an agency charted to do the mission. The top level leadership is in place and there is a capable workforce. Each of the segments are philosophically divided on the goal. There is infinitely more technological capability than in the other programs. But there is a lack of focus and prioritization. I believe thats the general support for space and the desire to see our nation continue to explore, but without unity, the Space Exploration per gram will be grounded. To answer the question, what made apollo successful . It was leadership, unity and the team. The mercury and gemini programs provided the knowledge, experience and environment. It developed the teams and the technologies and provided the Training Ground for Time Critical and complex high risk leadership. The 3 elements of the Space Task Force were incredible. They created a unique organizational energy. There was classical aeronautical engineering. They had a team of flight test personnel from canada. We had knowledgeable and energetic young recruits from americas colleges. We had a program of white unity that was focused on a singular objective space and the moon. We had wide unity. As the programs evolved we came facetoface with various challenges and failures. We began to solidify our teams values. Our values were simple discipline, competence, confidence, responsibility, teamworks teamwork. Toughness under the vocabulary, learned the hard way after the apollo fire and the loss of the crew. Toughness meeting we were forever accountable for the actions of what we do. In the case of apollo 1, what we failed to do. The leadership inherited from langley and the groups developed organizations with leadership at all segments at every level. There were individuals capable of of taking actions to make their pieces work. Leaders with confidence in their abilities to send word back up the line that designs, plans and policies needed amendment or reversal. Our Mission One Team and one voice was present in every aspect of our work. From the formation of the space task group, through subsequent programs. The 3 primary elements that contributed to the success of the Apollo Program are well documented. There is a nasa special publication 287, with spacecraft hardware that is reliable. Flight missions extremely well planned and executed. And flight crews superbly trained and skilled. Most pertinent, however, was System Design. It is related to safety. Nasa has 6 decades of manned space fight. It is written numerous papers related to design criteria, materials, tolerance, testing, and many other space System Designs. With gemini and subsequent programs, the safety engineers, design engineers, and my personnel work embedded in the space System Design and change control process from the very beginning of program initiation. This assured timely inputs to the System Design testing and development of the flight procedures and rules and plans. And correct configuration of the Mission Facilities and trainers. It is essential in todays current programs that nasa has the insight necessary to ensure safe and successful design for tests and operations. With the emphasis on concurrent engineering and reinventing nasa , we must ensure that individual responsibility is not forever lost. For all of nasas programs, we must have individuals accountable for design, development and operations. The world has changed dramatically since apollo and the Space Programs since my retirement, but constant essentials for success are unchanged. Leadership, unity, and teamwork. I thank you for the opportunity to testify and they look forward to answering your questions. Thank you, mr. Chris. Dr. Darden. Mr. Chairman, members of the Senate Commerce committee and members of the subcommittee on aviation and space, i am very honored to be present today to participate in your committee hearings. I am here as a child of the space race. On october 5, 1957, i vividly recall the headline about sputnik as it took the newspaper into my high school library. I also vividly remember may 1961 when my inventory halls were filled with screams about the challenge that Resident John kennedy had just issued about landing a man on the moon and safely bringing him back before the end of the decade. Where have you been . It is the response to that challenge with apollo that makes nasa and all of us so very proud. At the time, nasa Langley Research center had existed as that national Advisory Committee for aeronautics, nac eight laboratory for 40 years. And had spent countless hours thinking about how to leverage our aeronautics expertise to address the challenges of space fight. Nasa langley had begun project mercury and trained the 7 mercury astronauts to fly in space. As preparation for apollo, the gemini program, it focused on rendezvous docking, and long term spaceflight. The Apollo Program captured the worlds attention and demonstrated the power of americas vision and technology to inspire great achievement. On july 16, 1969, though it was. Nasa Space Centers that were visible to the public as the saturn 5 set poised for liftoff, many workers from the research centers, like langley, were several years removed from the simulators that they built for training the astronauts. The wind tunnel tests they did. That is where i worked. This tests validated the spacecraft configuration, and determined the reentry system. Apollo was in their heart. Apollo is supported by this country. After 11. 5 years, apollo entered, having spent a record 23. 5 billion. Having placed on the moon and safely returned 12 men and having inspired thousands of young engineers and space enthusiasts like myself. Sadly, after apollo ended, there was a decline in the number of American Students hitting higher degrees in these areas. Where do we go from here . Nasa is now poised to return american astronauts to the lunar surface by 2024. It is part of our broader moon to mars expiration. Are to miss is the expiration approved technologies, capabilities. Artemis. Through it nasa will establish a sustainable human presence on the moon by 2028. Inspiring the aartemis generation. Certainly, one of the necessary needs as we go forward is the development and preparation of a strong and energetic and committed workforce such as we have for mercury, gemini and apollo. A throbbing program will do much to inspire the next generation. A thriving Artemis Program will inspire the next generation. I saw the were being done it nasa result in you are strong walking on and safely returning from the moon. After apollo, i spent 25 years working in supersonic aerodynamics and minimizing the sonic boom. Now retired from nasa, 3 young ladies came to my party and stated that he was because of my sharing my story of how i got to nasa, and what i did at nasa, that inspired them to become engineers at nasa. I have over the past 2 years spoken to thousands of students about following their dreams, about preparing themselves, and persevering. Hoping that they too will be inspired to join the likes of an apollo generation to push the boundaries of knowledge. They will pursue Ground Breaking research to understand how to live and work on another planet. Since retiring from nasa, i have remained an advocate for the agency. I will work in aeronautics and expiration. I wish to thank the many members for your continued support of nasa and for the important work you are doing to pass nasas authorization bill through congress. Nasa really needs an authorization bill that supports our nations plans for the Artemis Program and the overall approach to the moon and mars. In summary, this lunar destination is promoting sustainability, approving ground proving ground for mars, a strategic presence for our nation and a foundation for nothing international and commercial ownerships, while also inspiring the next generation to be prepared for the excitement and working new opportunities. I think you very much. Thank you, dr. Darden. Dr. Dittmar. Confora, Ranking Member senator sinema, members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you for such an extraordinary and distinguished panel on the topic of todays hearing. Trend for, Ranking Member sinema. Nation readiness was the driving force of the effort. Certain capabilities needed to be developed. They included standing up his human Spaceflight Organization capable of developing a super heavy lift vehicle, a crew capsule, ground systems, crew systems, and related equipment. The entire operation concept in the Organization Called Mission Control had to be invented. I will defer to mr. Krantz. The overarching goal however was the geopolitical one. The Apollo Program had the means to achieve it. It evolved over 400,000 americans at the cost of 300 billion for the entire program. Resident kennedys challenge was fulfill between july 16 and july 24, 1969 with eight Lunar Landing on july 20, 50 years ago. With regard to the call today, the primary objective of the Human Spaceflight Program is to a national lands. It remains a geopolitical ends. There is a big difference. No longer any race with the soviets, united u. S. Leadership in space depends on creating a foundation that provides other nations and the space based economy with the suit security and assurance regarding our National Intentions and long term commitment to inspire, inspire, and achieve, in short, to lead human space expiration and the development of space. If we do not do this, rest assured, someone else will. Space remains a strategic competitive domain tween nations. Accordingly, the United States is developing core capabilities to enable i return to deep space. A super heavy launch vehicle, a minor crew vehicle capable of Long Duration missions and groundbased infrastructure needed to support those missions. The sais phone system, the orion crew vehicle, and expiration ground systems, these strategic assets are the foundation on which National Goals and human deep Space Organization will rest for the foreseeable future. Similar to the development of military capabilities, these are a longtime asset. They are strength against economic downturn. They are a message to the global community. The Artemis Program will engage industry and international partners. Seeking to align International Objectives with those of commercial enterprises, and global collaborators and the human expiration a deep space. The Current Administration is focused on report after report showing nasa is asked to do too much with too little. Acceleration must be balanced with management of program risk, mission assurance, and safety. Forward momentum must be matched by Significant National investment above present levels. The administration is proposing 26 billion for the human space expiration program. In addition, administrators estimate it will take 4 million to 6 billion per year to meet timelines. While funding increases are always a political challenge, it is worth noting that the benefits of 10 times that amount in at just the dollars invested in the Apollo Program are evident to all. They form the foundation for the National Effort and the growing entrepreneurial sector. A personal aside i actually have been on crutches the last 2. 5 years as a result of it connective tissue disorder. During the lunch and letting of apollo 11, i was at home after having just got to my fourth surgery. I stand before you without crutches after 2 were years of work in physical therapy using Technology Developed in the Space Program. For me this is deeply personal. Nasa plans to achieve architectural flexibility by constructing the interorbital station known as the gateway a partnership with industry and international partners. Among other things, gateway simplifies the ability to aggregate hardware in the vicinity of the moon with vehicles for transportation of humans back and forth. Longer Surface Missions enabled by gateway make it easier to conduct operations over time. Entrepreneurial firms team with investors and established companies to develop technologies and to Building Infrastructure on the moon. With regard to science, the moon has been called the Rosetta Stone of the solar system, with evidence locked within it that is taught us a great deal about the formation of the moon system. We have export 5 of the surface. There is more to learn. Finally, gateway is the next logical step in developing a command and logistics capability extensible to the moon and beyond to mars. The gateway itself is a prototype. The evolution of Lessons Learned in the last 50 years and a particular from the interNational Space station to create habitable space and systems to support human life and work in deep space. The moon is the important steppingstone. What we learn there will create opportunities and open new discoveries and knowledge that will help us as we look toward mars. The moon is not the end goal. It is the beginning. The next step and enabling migration of technology, heavy industry, and humanity itself off the earth and into the solar system at a scale that is no longer constrained by a single planet. Our original home. Thank you for your time and attention. I look forward to any questions you may have. Thank you dr. Detmer. Mr. Hickam. Good afternoon 10 for and Ranking Member sinema. Youre probably thinking to yourself, what will homer say now . [ laughter ] homer will say now, i believe most formally that our destiny lies at the moon. We need to go back to the moon, we need to put an anchor there, and from that anchor develop the moon commercially and scientifically. One of the stories left out of the movie october skys that was based on rocket boys, was the fact i met senator john f. Kennedy when he was running for residents in the West Virginia primary that he had to win. Since i was a rocket boy headed to the National Science fair, he asked me what we should do in space. I answered, senator kennedy, i looked around at all the coal miners in the crowd. I think we should go to the moon and just mine the blamed thing. All the coal miners laughed and cheered. He said, elect me president , and maybe we will. Most recently, one of my books, called back to the moon, Vice President pence told me that that is one of his favorite books. We talked at length and extensively about that. The next thing he knew, he was in Huntsville Alabama at space camp saying we are going back to the moon by 2024. I am in a unique position of being able to take credit for both the apollo [ laughter ] and the 24 artemis Space Program. I really do advocate going back to the moon and there is a lot of work to do there. There are decades of work yet to be done. I was in a hospital ward at fort Lewis Washington with fellow veterans of the Fourth Infantry Division. We watch the apollo land. At that point, even though my mind had been occupied a great deal by vietnam and all of that struggle, i realized i really wanted to work for nasa. I was going to make that happen. It took me a while. 1981 when the shuttle started to fly, i got to work for nasa. I loved it. I woke up every morning and said to myself, oh my goodness, this is great. I get to go work for nasa today. It is a tremendous agency. I loved it. Here we are. What are we going to do . Mark twain once said, god looks after fools, drunks and the United States of america. [ laughter ] thats comment was never were apt than the way our Space Program has evolved. Modern american industry is now moving toward in space at in astonishing ways. Space x and blue origin are a couple of those companies coming up. There able to come up with new designs and be more timely and create much less expensive ways to get into space. They are beating out the heavily subsidized Space Programs around the world, like china. We have every right to be proud of that. We are able to do that because of parallel forces including modern Computer Systems derived from the internet, any fracturing techniques, and along other parallel lines, we see a dim on for clean and Abundant Energy and awareness that the earth is in danger of being permanently polluted. And the gradual development of a philosophy that puts mankind in context of the universe. As all engineers know, parallel lines never intersect until they do. These parallel lines that i just mentioned intersect primarily at one place, our moon. The small planet that circles us, our eighth continent formed millennia ago. At this moment, given to us by the benevolent hand of creation, all the elements needed to go back to the moon and set up shop and come to us so was utilized its mineral wealth, and discover all that is there. This includes, by the way, the possibility of evidence of life. We have not looked at a single water molecule from space. We will find a lot of water ice on the moon and in there, there might be evidence of life. The earth and luna have spared shared that for millions of years. It did not work out for the dinosaurs. It may work out for us. In summary, i applaud the essentials of the trendy forney for program to take us to the moon. I say so with this proviso, that what we do on luna must make sense to the american people, economically and philosophically and should be designed in such a way that it may cost the peoples money to place an anchor there, but not forever, in order to sustain our presence. The riches on the moon, rare metals, titanium, helium 3, and other minerals, should be gathered to boost our economies and the put money in the pockets of all americans. Our citizenship should be assured that a base on the moon will make this country stronger and safer. I have to say, i do not really much care who the next professional astronaut on the moon is. What i care about, who the next american plumber, electrician, his construction worker, and bluecollar worker is on the moon. When that happens, we know we are finally a spacefaring nation. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Hickam. When you invoke the twain quote about fools and drunks, i assume most people at home just assumed you were talking about the United States congress. [ laughter ] mr. Stallmer. I have a tough act to follow. Homer was present to inspire the Apollo Program i was not born before apollo 11. You raise the bar quite a bit. Confora, Ranking Member sinema, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for inviting the commercial Spaceflight Federation today to discuss how Rapid Advances by u. S. Commercial space industry help nasa owner the apollo legacy by letting humanity into the solar system farther and faster. In the past 2 years, nasa has crystallizing a vicious agenda ambitious agenda to establish a longterm presence on the surface of the moon and send humans to mars. These goals are all linked together. Collectively, they will enable the expansion of our civilization in the solar system. It is the breadth of his vision, of space as a frontier for all, that makes the recent emergence of the strong u. S. Commercial spaceflight industry so uniquely valuable. It did not just happen overnight. For 2 decades, nasa has fostered the development and increasing success of this industry, sharing technologies and expertise, coinvesting in private innovation and using its purchasing power to serve as an initial customer. The steps have enabled the companys to develop, own, and operate their own human spaceflight hardware to serve the public needs, as well as the private sector markets. These efforts were established in nasas mandate, to seek and encourage, to the maximum extent possible, the fullest commercial use of space, as well as the Bipartisan Legislation and administrative policies under both democratic and republican president. Over just the past 2 years, republican president s. Space directors one is, 2 and 3, have strengthened the partnership between government and industry and remove barriers to industry growth. Under your leadership, this committee has worked to facilitate Industries Development via the space frontier act. We thank you. At the start of the space age, the United States established leadership in space with governmentfunded and lead exploration projects. When president kennedy propose sending an american to the moon, there were no alternatives to the all government strategy. Today, 5 decades after apollo, the u. S. Is enjoying a renaissance in space, with commercial Space Enterprises laying a. The details are in my written testimony. Playing a leading role. The u. S. Leapt forward in 2018 and every commercial space sector, with more launches, more spacecraft pursuing both old and new space applications, benefiting more and more stakeholders here on earth. Today, as we seek to further develop orbit, plays the enduring american presence on the moon, and said not just 2, but many brave pioneers to mars, policymakers like yourself have newer, more affordable, and sustainable options than just repeating apollo. The ingredients of a successful strategy have proven themselves over and over in recent years. Future leo infrastructure, every operational element of returning to the moon, and most of any affordable mars architecture should be purchased commercially or developed via partnerships. For example, allowing the private sector to develop its own solution for the lunar way power propulsion element, nasa was able to generate a fixed price bid that was more than 200 million less than the closest competitor. While science is appropriately a government led activity. The engineering and infrastructure that per support it can be provided commercially. Leading is chosen governments are provided by government stewardship. Nasa should specify clear high level outcome based requirements. It should allow entrepreneurs to innovate and create affordable and basic capabilities to meet essentially all the operational needs. Nasa must pay for results. All development programs. And the most as a tear technical challenges. Whenever possible, nasa should award multiple competitively chosen funded space act agreements, commercial partners willing to put up private cannibal at their own risk. That leverage, plus ongoing competition will replace any need for the costly micromanagement and bureaucracy of typical firebase contracts. Competition allows for greater diversity and technical approaches and much lower strategic per gram risk. None of this will be easy. Commercializing low earth orbit will be difficult. Human travel to the moon is hard. Sustaining it will be harder. Mars will be harder still. With an even greater reward as we explore the different planet and its moons. American industry is ready to help nasa chart an affordable and sustainable into the challenging future. This month, it is natural to venerate the past. We should also be proud of the greatest things we are achieving today. What we can do together governm people and enterprises. Chairman cruz, Ranking Member sinema, thank you for your attention. I look forward to your questions. Thank you mr. Stallmer. Thank you to east of the witnesses. As we sit here today reflecting back on the last 50 years, and the journey that america has traveled and space expiration since the giant leap for mankind. Is also appropriate for us to not just look backwards but to look forwards. And to ask, one of the next 50 years . In the year 2069, perhaps our kids, our grandkids, participating in another hearing, working the 100year anniversary of man landing on the moon. My first question i want to ask the panel is, in the next 50 years, what should we hope to accomplish in space . What should our objectives be . What should we be looking forward to. . I think what is paramount as it over the past 50 years we could have and should have done a lot more. As young people, we look at the apollo era 50 years ago with the gosh, we landed a man on the moon in 1985. What are we going to do . 20 years later, what could we be doing. What have we done . We havent returned back to the moon, humans. I think we really need to accelerate and not think as much the next 50 years but maybe the next 20 years what we can do. I think we need to look at setting up a base on the moon. What a way that can provide and the outlook of the future vision for mars. I dont think we should focus so far, and 50 years. I think should focus on the next 25 years a lot of these people behind me are comingof age in engineers that they will have the opportunity to help promote the global space marketing right now is a 360 billion industry. We have to look at one of those commercial opportunities going to be available in space. That is what is excites me. I think from my standpoint, we had an excellent plan that was probably the most widely distributed plan, academia, right on down the line. It was called pioneering the space frontier. I think the key thing we have to do is establish a plan and stick with us. During the space frontier, the gateway was discussed but never showed up in any of the subsequent plans. The question is, theres good work out there. What we have to do, i think really, this administration should be able to fit into the artemis plans. Take a look at those plans that have been written in c what parts still are viable, what parts fit together because you are talking about a direction well beyond the moon. You are talking about a direction for the future. This plan was really, the space frontier was a 50year plan i believe. In your testimony, you stated you dont see the same National Unity that we saw in the 1960s that led to the script is full Apollo Program. Can you elaborate on that and what we need to do to achieve that unity once again . I could talk for hours on this. I finished writing a book. I dont know if it will get published. Because i have addressed my perspective of the agency since the time i joined back in 62 actually. The first four decades. I was influential from my standpoint. I was trying to figure out why i was director of Mission Operations for a while and why we got such confusing change of plans, directions, right on down the line. The oral history describe the challenger as a time worse than chaos. He was one of the directors. He had been up to headquarters. That was is part of the oral history. It clearly did the same thing. He talked about rough seas, staying the course. It is a question, i go back into the leadership focus that we need. Whats in the agency, but it starts at the very top. This is what we are going to do. What i want you to do is give me a set of plans for an objective. I will work with you to pick the people. But we need to find leadership. We are not to go to the government. When i was growing up, in space, we had competitive industries. Highly incredible aircraft and aerospace industry. We were able to get people from mcdonnell aircraft, john yardley , to come down and show us how to start a program and get it started. He was teaching us the business of program management. Dale myers did the same thing. Malcolm telecom. They were places where he learned the business from the professionals of the business. So i think the key thing is, the future is there. A lot of the plans are there. We have to establish which plan we are going to subscribe to and get on with it and then find the leaders. Final question. In your judgment, what are the benefits to americans of returning to the moon and establishing a sustainable habitat on the moon . Can you address this . Yes. I was raised in a little town called wood, West Virginia. In places like that, in the early 20th century, it basically fueled the American Economy and really the civilization of this country. What would i like to see in 50 years . I would like to see coalwood on the moon. I would like to see families raised on the moon. I would like to see bluecollar workers, minors, getting money in their pockets and creating a spacebased economy. How can we make that happen . When mr. Carter who built caolwood went in there, he went in on a mule. He got off on a road that took them into coalwood, and there he sunk the shaft and brought up about 1 million tons of coal. It is the governments responsibility in my opinion to do very much the same on the moon. We need to put an anchor on the moon, a place where people can go, companies can go, countries can go. And from there, they can branch out and develop coalwood on the moon it basically cause a real space economy to develop. I am looking forward to seeing the space so that we can fit a mule into. [ laughter ] me, too. Thank you, mr. Chairman. My first question is from both of you worked at nasa leading up to entering the Apollo Missions and can offer a unique perspective on how nasa achieved its ambitious goal in the 1960s. What lessons do you believe nasa is no current leadership and workforce can learn from your experiences at nasa during the Apollo Missions as we prepare to return to the moon . When i went to nasa, they were two years away from walking on the moon. I want in during 1967. I think his comments about the leadership, the commitment, and the background that they had working with the other programs , projects e and gemini, i think all those were factors, how these persons pulled together and were committed to making that a successful program. A successful project. For my point, i think it was a mutual sharing of knowledge. When i first got into nasa, i didnt know anything about rocket space. I could walk around the spacecraft. I could talk to the booster people. I can go over to the safety people. There was so much to do and so much to learn that literally everybody spent the entire day telling everybody what they learned and vice versa. We have to reestablish this passion, the energy, the imagination in our organizations. I think this starts at the top in leadership. I think somewhere along the line or leadership values have sort of been subtly changed. It might be generational. To a great extent. I call it the apollo generation. I call it the sons and daughters of the apollo generation. We have to reconstitute what our nation is and what it stands for and what we expect from our people. What are the expectations we have for all employees in nasa, federal government, right on down the line . Mission control after the apollo 1 fireworks disaster, many of us lived through that 18 seconds, we sat down and wrote down the searing impressions we had in such a fashion that we would never go through this again. We call it the foundation. Its on the internet. I get requests for this every day. I go into fortune 500 companies and see on the wall. Angry, passionate, accept responsibility for the apollo 1 fire. The crew could have called it off. I couldve called it off. Nobody said stop. Its not right. So it is a question we have to redefine expectations that we have for ourselves, our organization, our people, and our leadership. I think it is there. What weve got to do is put it into words. We need to establish shared values that we are all working through. Thank you. The 2018 assessment a major project that nasa pointed out that more than half of nasa of the work is over the age of 50, and 21 about thats workforce is already eligible for retirement. Workforce challenges exist beyond nasa. Since the Settle Program ended in 2011, many of the commercial manufacturers and suppliers who had for decades supported Nasa Missions were led to close up shop, and many of the skilled employees that works to support nasa programs went and found work elsewhere. My next question is for homer hickam and mr. Stallmer, as the United States prepares again to send americans into space and return to the moon, do you believe the current workforce at nasa and his commercial partners is sufficient to support a long term series of American Space leadership . In my written testimony, i did addresses to some extent. Let me recap briefly, there have been several studies that looked at when people first become interested in going into aerospace. About 71 of them become interested when they are in grade school. The pressure you are describing with regard to people continuing to stay in the workforce longer does make it difficult for younger people to enter. At the same time, however, there are terrestrial based activities, i. T. , artificial intelligence, a number of those. Those hightech firms have been attracting for some time some of the best and brightest in the country. The situation we are facing is, we have an aging workforce. We do have positions opening up, but a lot of those positions are being competed for by other industries that are very attractive. As the country, i think it is very important that we focus on making sure that we continue to provide Educational Opportunities that that education is topnotch. The United States remains in the upper third by every measure ive seen in the last 10 years in regard to stem education. It is better than the lower third, but it is not where we should be. I think a National Focus making sure that our folks are actually prepared to go into this war, continuing development of jobs both through National Programs and through commercial development. I think it is very important that we open up opportunities for people to come into them. At the same is true for science. We underfund science. That has been noted for the last 20 years since the augustine rising im getting older. I think for quite some time weve had a lot of indications that we really need to remain focused on this. I do think aerospace and defense continue to inspire. The sooner we get back to the moon to start doing things to that end, we will be pulling things into this industry. We need to make sure they have the basis to come and work. Diversity also. That is another problem. In the last 20 or 30 years, the face of the workforce has not changed very much. People of worked, but it is the same as it was 40 years ago. We know a more Diverse Workforce is a more competitive work force. It is a tough nut to crack, but it is one we need to keep working on. I think that is a great question. I see a little differently. Icing nasa is really one of the marquee government agencies. I just traveled to europe. Everywhere you are going, people are wearing nasa logo t shirts. Nasa is a branch. It is an inspirational brand. I understand the aging workforce issues. I see it differently from the commercial companies i recommend, like spacek and virgin galactic. They cant hire enough people. There is a line out the door for people who want to work for these type of companies, these innovative, cuttingedge companies that are really pushing the envelope in a fantastic way thats really moving the needle for our industries. We also recommend universities. There are universities in arizona that we represent. Arizona State University we will be having our next board meeting. You have a out there. The programs they have, the innovative programs they have are fantastic. They are really preparing for the students well to go into the workforce. I caution myself to tread lightly on this next issue. There is an immigration problem that we have, or maybe a visa problem. Where the most Generous Company in the world. We educate people from all over the world, and we give them one of the finest educations, advanced educations, doctorates in airspace. We generous, we give them a diploma and a ticket home. Those are the people we want to keep, some of the best and brightest, instead of sending the back to china and india. Lets keep those people. They can help the workforce. As marylin said, the diversity of the work force, i think we are making efforts. Im not going to turn around and look. I know this week theres a program called the Brooke Owens Fellowship Program that gets 36 young women from across the country. Is there anyone from the program behind us . I think theres some here. They are all coming into town. There were internships all across the country. I think we are doing a better job of inspiring young women to go into the field of math and science. We are not there yet. Think the effort is being made. A seat a lot of companies i work with trying to advance that. Can i just add, the chairman of the board, that includes space camp and space academy. I would like to add that we are kind of a shadow space Workforce Program down there. We trained hundreds of thousands of young people, including 11 astronauts, all women, by the way. So far. That program down there is completely self funded. They are doing a remarkable job of getting young men and women interested in stem. Thank you. It is great to be here. To listen in to see my good friend homer hickam here. You would be surprised that West Virginia has a great history of space. We do have chuck yeager it was quite a wild one, and he is still around. We also had john mcbride and our mathematician Katherine Johnson and homer as well. I was just have the honor of dedicating, renaming the nasa center in fairmont, West Virginia in honor of Katherine Johnson. Ive heard some very much concerned today about the next generation. Im going to tell you, we had about 250300 people there. By far the greatest majority were younger people that were so excited to see and of course it is a crosssection of the media and the book. To reckon of her and her great accomplishments of her lifetime. Riley cook was there because we were not able to get you to come. Roy was waiting for you. He is doing well. He was another rocket boy. The other thing we learned on the artemis, there is a lot of discussion about the artemis project because he had been a straight over there and did a great job to inform everybody. People dont know about this. This is a problem i think. Maybe we are not tuned into it, but i had never heard of artemis until i walked into that dedication later today. You talked about the sustainability of the mission and how we are going to have a longterm presence in and around the moon. I said of course we are because it is going to be the first one where a woman is going to go to the moon. We will sustain it for you guys. Dont worry about that. Also give on yvonne cagle was there. She expressed her desire to go to mars. I was like are you kidding me . Mars . Im having a hard enough problem going from West Virginia to washington. I said why do you want to go to mars . She says i want to see what effect it has on my body. She is a position. She is curious about the science it would have on her own body and is willing to do this for her but also for the country and for the advancement of science. In the back of the room there were robotics teams. There were about 15 of them from high school and middle school. It was interesting because in the robotics team, they all had mentors who were either a parent or somebody who did Something Else and it is in their free time once or twice a week and during the competitive times more than that. And i thought, think about you, homer, and i think about your book and the emphasis you had on your teachers in coalwood. And i thought why are we not incorporated more of this into the regular curriculum of our schools so that the teachers are there. Mentors are great, but they are volunteers. They have other jobs and family responsibilities. I would like to ask you, homer, if you could talk about the influence of your teacher and mentors on you and your investment in science and how you see that now in the context of what we want to do in the future. Thank you, senator. Of course, one of the major elements that i wrote about in rocket boys with our teachers. Especially one teacher, our ms. Riley who was our science teacher. She so influenced us. She brought us a book called principles of guided missile design. We were trying to figure out how to build rockets. I later saw that book in a phd program for rocket science. It required a working knowledge of calculus and differential equations. I personally was having trouble with algebra at the time. Ms. Riley says all i have done is give you a bit. You have to have the courage to learn whats inside of it. She and other inspiring teachers were pretty amazing. They raised a generation of coal miners kids who went out and did some pretty great things. I would have to say. Not me especially, but we have captains of industry that came out of their, out of that era before the coal industry ran into problems. Now i see, the way i look at it now and try to support that, again, is that space and Rocket Center, space camp, and space academy, honeywell and other Aerospace Companies send it pay for teachers to come to space camp. I make a special room on my calendar to go out and talk to those teachers when they come in. My goodness, they are so enthusiastic about the Space Program. The neat thing about a teacher, yeah, we can teach a young person at space camp and space academy, and they will have all this knowledge, but if you teach a teacher, my goodness, you think of the hundreds and thousands of students that they then are able to pass this knowledge along and the enthusiasm for the Space Program. We must never forget our teachers. God bless them all. Thanks. Thank you. Senator gardner. Thank you, thank you for hosting this hearing. This is a pretty incredible panel for a kid who grew up on the Eastern Plains of colorado and who wanted to be an astronaut. I failed miserably at that. But i will never forget the letters that i wrote to nasa in the pictures i got back from nasa. Theres a reason people wrote to ask about you and made movies about you. You are featured in our culture and our ideas and society. Because of the impact you have had on kids like me. Turnaround. Look at the young people in this room. Please, turnaround. Razor hand if you have been inspired by the work that anyone of these have done. Please raise your hand if you want to lead better lives because of the people on this panel . This is what its about. You didnt just change the 1960s. You changed the world. With an impact that will last forever. Mr. Hickam, all i have done is give you a bit. You have to have the courage to find out whats inside it. Accommodate your teacher made it so powerful. Thank you for being here. Thank you for the work you have done. I hope that as we look at things like the rising above the gathering storm in the american competes bill and American Innovation and competitiveness act, the work we will continue to do to rise above the storm that often is washington will make every single one of the people that raised their hands in this auditorium, this committee room, proud of the policies this congress pursuit in this country pursues because the day that somebody else land on mars and not the United States, the day that somebody else gets the next better rifle, the next better internet, the next better algorithm, is the day those jobs, those ideas, those teachers go somewhere else. The power of that innovation, the power of that idea, that thought is no longer here. We have to maintain that incredible power that is the United States. Not military prowess. But the power of the people sitting before this committee. Whats in your head . The knowledge that you have that you have given to this country. Thank you for the work that you continue to do to inspire, to dream, to hope, to aspire, to create because you have made this country a great place. Thanks. Thats all i have. Thank you, senator gardner. Thank you for pointing out all the young people here and all of us who are inspired. Dr. Darden, i wanted to ask a followup question because i mentioned in my opening, you and i visited a couple of weeks ago at the dedication of the new street sign in front of the nasa headquarters, Hidden Figures way. Now nasa headquarters is on a street named after you and named of your colleagues and fellow pioneers. As you and i discussed then, i am particularly inspired because like you, my mom was a mathematician who became a Computer Programmer in the 1950s and 1960s, and indeed, at the smithsonian, helped work on computing the orbits of sputnik. When i went to see the movie Hidden Figures, i took my mom and my wife and both my daughters. Afterwards, i was talking with my girls and telling them that meaning, their grandmother, had been doing much the same as you were doing and your colleagues. I was commenting about my mom. I asked my mother, how accurate was the movie in terms of what it was like to be a woman and a mathematician in the 1960s, or in her case starting in the 1950s. Her reaction when she thought was quite accurate. I said one of the harder things to be listening to it was seeing people called computers. We think of a computer is a hunk of metal on a desk, not a human being who is computing. My mother began laughing, she said when she came out of bryce in 1956 and went to work at shell, our first job title was computer. I would just ask you, dr. Darden, if you can tell this committee what it was like to be a human computer, to be helping drive incredible success of nasa all these years . We worked with great people. I was say to you, and its a concession. I did not like being called a computer. [ laughter ] but the support work that we did, our program when i went there, the support work that we did with the engineers and everything was very great. I think that what really inspired me is to know what the work that i was doing, the equations i work with, what they were doing to the real world. How they were evaluating the wind tunnels such that when we used the data to fly, everything was correct. That really inspired me. But i work with wonderful people. Thats when and i went there as a data analysis. Soon after the Apollo Program at it, i began asking to be switched to an engineer. I switched to the engineer at about a year after supersonic flight across the continent of the United States have been banned by law. The sst program have been canceled. That became my life after that. I kind of dripped and lived with it for 20 years, and still hoping that the airplane that Lockheed Martin builds will be able to have us get rid of that law, that we can have a supersonic flight in this country. It was great, certainly, when apollo was going up and everything. It was just fantastic to see these things happening in our lives. In my vision for the space in a few years is that we can actually start operating in space but we operate the airplanes on earth. So i actually dream of that kind of mobility within space. I look forward to that. Mr. Stallmer, in your testimony, you mentioned that quote, since 2000, investors have supported 375 private Space Companies with nearly 19 billion in private capital. Like you, i think that is a wonderful development. I think that is key to expanding into space at the level we need to. My question for you and feel free to chime in if you have thoughts, what should we be doing to turn that 19 billion, to increase it tenfold and then 100 fold to get the resources invested that will be needed to go to the moon and habitat and go to mars and go to europa and explore space. I think its critical for investors to see that the government is a partner, not an adversary. I wouldnt say that delivery deliberately trying to impede what we are doing. But when you have it partnership, that stability of working with these various government agencies, it provides a sense of assurance i think for other investors. There are a lot of investors out there, not just in the u. S. , but around the world. Of that 19 billion, over 4. 3 billion of that came from last year alone. 71 unique investors that have invested in Space Companies in the last two years alone. Theres money out there. They want to see the stability of the government. I think of what the senate has done, your committee, the bipartisanship is your committee working together has been a real beacon for many to see. I think the president s enthusiasm on the Space Program with the creation of the National Space council, the ag, which homework, mary lynn and i are on. I think that is sending a great message to investors. And the Regulatory Environment. I think this was highlighted in the space frontier act. How do we streamline this Regulatory Environment to make it more accessible and streamlined to access space . A lot of the rules and regulations that we are under under the current regime go back to the 80s when there wasnt a commercial space industry at all. It was all government space. How do we adapt to that . I think your committee has done a fantastic job in trying to address these issues. I thank you both for that. Thank you. I agree with everything eric said. In my testimony, i made some references to essentially how we go forward with government acquisition processes make a lot of sense when you have programs that take a long time. They have a heavy rnt requirement. Accountability is also very important and should not be lost. I think also the nation needs to have a conversation with itself about, what are the goals with regards of developing an ultra stick economy or however it is you want to talk about it. Right now that has been left with nasa because it is the space agency. I think theres reasonable questions to be asked. Nasa is not an Economic Development industry. Is a space agency. It has recently rolled out some commercial Development Ideas on july 7. That long in nasas hands . Should we be talking to the department of commerce . This is really significant. We are talking about doing Economic Development off the earth. Let that sink in. We are not so hot at it down here. It could take 20 years. We dont have the sort of barriers that we have. I think there needs to be a serious conversation probably perhaps in congress and other places about how do we really go about doing that . How much investment do we want to make . And what kind of investment . Do we want to talk about governmentbacked loans . There are lots of means to talk about Economic Development. Thank you very much. Let me thank each of the witnesses for being very helpful and productive testimony. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your careers and lifetime that has inspired so many young girls and young boys. The hearing record will remain open for two weeks. Closing on july 23. During that time, senators are asked to submit any questions for the record. Upon receipt, the witnesses are requested to submit the written answers to the committee as soon as possible. That, the hearing is adjourned. Federal reserve chairman Jerome Powell will testify before the House Committee on Monetary Policy in the state of the u. S. Economy live wednesday at 10 am eastern and live at 2 30 pm the Health Subcommittee hearing on the treatment of immigrant children at the u. S. Mexico border. Witnesses include an Asylum Seeker from guatemala and live on thursday morning at 9 30 am eastern, the senate on Services Committee will consider the nomination for joint chiefs of staff. Watch all three hearings live on cspan 3, listen with the free cspan radio app. The house will be in order. For 40 years cspan has been providing america unfiltered coverage of the white house, the supreme court, and Public Policy from washington, dc and around the country so you can make up your own mind. Created by cable in 1979, c span is brought to you by your local cable or satellite providers. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. This is bill hoagland of the by paulson part of the center to talk to you about the effect of debt on the federal budget in the next many