Transcripts For CSPAN3 House Veterans Affairs Hearing On Whistleblowers 20240714

The hearing will come to order. Without objection the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. Today is the third panel of the oversight investigation subcommittee hearing spielgtsed learning from v. A. Whistleblowers. On june 25th, the subcommittee began this hearing to discuss the importance of va whistle bloergs we heard testimony from people inside the va raising Major Concerns questions and kwerns critical problems affecting the health and well being of veterans. These witnesses were willing to below the whistle even when at risk their livelihood and careers. Unfortunately we learned the va continuing to struggle with the culture of retaliation against whistleblowers. In too many instances leadership and supervisor turned a blind eye in those in v. A. Worker frs pointed out sowers problems or pointing out bad actors ace abuseding positions or broken laws. Even worse the whistleblowers are target of active retaliation one striking example dpram dr. Catherine mitchells testimony. In 2014 she was one of a group of people working at the Phoenix Medical Center that oz expose the secret waiting list of veterans in need of medical care. Instead of addressing the issue the leadership actively worked to hide the exorbitant wait times. And it turned out such practices occurred at v. A. Facilities nationwide. The coverup was extensive and deliberate. And the health and well being of veterans was put at risk. Congress responded to the allegations with hearings that confirmed the whistleblowers revelations of long and active difficult wait times for appointments. Of course the v. A. Has a lot of work to do so ends veterans get access to health care in a timely and transparent manner. And in fact the committee on Veterans Affairs will hold a hearing on this topic tomorrow. The phoenix v. A. Employees raised incredibly important concerns regarding Veterans Health care. Instead of being thanked for raising the issues theyve experienced retaliation. Their jobs were threatened and they faced a hostile work environment. Unfortunately the experience is not uncommon. Our two other witnesses during the june hearing also testified about retaliation they were experiencesing all while continuing to work at the v. A. And they sought protection as whistleblowers. The june witnesses described many short comings within the v. A. For protecting the rights of whistleblowers each of the three individuals who testified described ongoing retaliation that they were experiencing despite current laws and institutions designed for their protection as they try to speak truth to power. For example, dr. Mitchell testified that retaliation is ongoing even after she secured a Settlement Agreement with the v. A. To continue her work severing veterans. Clearly the v. A. Must do better. Make no mistake. The these are people trying to do the best they can for veterans. And we should be committed to their protection. At the gipg of the june 25th hearing Ranking Member bergman requested we invite members of the v. Ammanen and other Government Agencies to testify. I griep that the Government Agency perspective is essential. In fact, the subcommittee will hold an additional hearing with government witnesses in september. Its been two years since congress and v. A. Established the office of accountability and whistleblower protection. Our september hearing will focus on the results of an inspectors general investigation of this particular office. Todays panel is an early opportunity to marry from v. A. Office of accountability and whistleblower protection. In addition the top officials from the office of Inspector General, office of special counsel and the merit system protection board are present. Each representing a key Agency Charged with protecting whistleblowers. Ive also of the invited two of the whistleblower advocates appearing on the june 25th panel to ensure a strong and important dialogue with todays government officials. As ive said before and it needs to be repeated, whistleblowers are an important source of information and should not be ignored. Their rights must be protected so that future whistle bloergs relief confidence the stories are heard and confidence the investigations without reprisal. I look forward to the testimony of the witnesses, with that id like to recognize Ranking Member bergman for opening remarks for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I appreciate your holding the hearing open to allow us to receive testimony from government witnesses who administer the whistleblower programs. Scheduling a hearing in quickly is difficult and i appreciate you following through on your commitment to hold this hearing as soon as possible. The first Witness Panel recounted case specific complaints but we had littles discussion about the whistleblower process. The discussion bounced back and forth between complaints with vas office of accountability and whistleblower protection or o owe aowp opinion the office of special counselor osc on the v. A. Inspector rm general. Witnesses raised concerns that the current lack of merit Systems Protection Board members clouded its operations. It is critical that we understand the division loh division of labor in the whistleblower protectionsome if we are going to diagnose the problems and craft airport slugs let me give you my analogy from my pilot background. There are four forcing afgting an abilitys to fly. Thrust, weight, drag and lift. When the problem arises that pilot mustwatch understand the force accretaed because the response differs depending on the nature of the. The whistleblower process is no different. The remedy for disclosure problem may be vastly different than a retaliation problem. I want to make sure that we have the right framework and identify the airport accountable parties to address whistleblower concerns. Behind me is a diagram of what i understand to be the whistleblower reporting process for v. A. Employees. When we discuss whistleblowers we must distinguish between disclosures and retaliation. Because when an employee is alleging what an employee is alleging and where they go for help depends on whether they are making a disclosure or a retaliation claim. A disclosure is the initial blowing of the whistle. It is when an employee brings the attention to the 6 oh oh hammer secret wait lists or potential criminal activity. Retaliation on the other hand is what happens after a Whistleblower Makes a disclosure and experiences an adverse impact on work or career because of the disclosure. Retaliation may occur when management proposes to remove the economy or move them to an isolated Office Without heat or airconditioning. It might manifest in the form of multiple investigations or a threat. A whistleblower can make a disclosure to their supervisor, oawp, the vaig or the osc. In fact a whistleblower may make the same disclosure to all offices, and it is unclear what type of communication exists between the parallel routes for investigation. Similarly a whistleblower may raise ray ea retaliation kpant if he aowp or vag or osc thp they can raise claims in multiple forums and could lead to multiple investigations. Mr. Debt barn described the process of seeking whistleblower assistance as confounding. And the other witnesses echoed that sentiment in marine we employ the kis stifrm. Keep it simple. But this runs afoul of the principle. This is another example of bureaucracy 101, a government problematic program with government officeance diffused responsibility which together create confusion and look lack of accountability our witnesses are undoubtedly the experts at what works and what needs to be improved in the whistleblower protection system. Land i would like each much you to explain your offices role as it relates to disclosure or retaliation. A demon grieve sins the lack of communication between the investigating officer and the whistleblower following disclosure or retaliation complaint. I would like the witness foss explain what an employee should expect from the investigator in your office. What barriers exist to timely and author o communication and what steps you are taking to improve the communication. Mr. Chairman, before i yield, i want to reiterate that whistleblowers a Invaluable Service to our country. They must belief gnat whistle blowing systems take in re concerns seriously and investigates their complaints appropriately and efficiently. Most importantly, whistleblowers must feel safe to make a disclosure. Ephesus evident that the witnesses on the first panel do not have faith in the system but i was surprised to learn in the written testimony submitted for today that in fa 2018 the v. A. Ig received 35,000 hotline complaints that whistleblowers contacted oawp, 1965 times and that osc received roughly 2,100 v. A. Related disclosure and retaliation complaints. In data suggest nas many employees are not afraid to raise concerns. But in is not cause to celebrate just yet. Because as the pryor testimony made clear, problems remain and there is a lack of faith by many in the system. I hope thap with the multifacetted understanding of the process we can identify the root causes of the problems and make a whistleblower system that works better for everyone. And, again, mr. Chairman, i appreciate your reconvening the important hearing and i yield back. Well, thank you Ranking Member bergman. En a i very much appreciate your recommendation to hold this session today. And appearing before us today are four witnesses selected by Ranking Member bergman to offer testimony. And id like to recognize them first starting with dr. Tamara bonzanto, the from the office of witness protection. You have five minutes for your testimony. Chairman, pappas Ranking Member bergman appear and members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to testify today regarding whistleblower protection at the department of Veterans Affairs. Protecting whitley blowers from retaliation is a priority for the v. A. And the office of accountability. To protect whistleblowers oawp directly investigates all whistleblower retaliation allegations made by employees and applicants for employment by v. Chl a vfrzing mitigating the possibility that whistleblowers may face retaliation for making a lawful dloeds. Since my confirmation as the first assist secretary oawp has engaged if with other federal agencies including the office of special counsel, the Department Much the o defense, department of justice, the department of labor and the department of Homeland Security to obtain best practices to investigate disclosures and protect whistleblowers. Oawp also developed a process to regularly update whistleblowers who make a disclosure to oawp about the status of their investigation into the allegations. The secretary and i recognized the need for improvements to whistleblower protection within the v. A. O. Awp is actively working to implement several initiative. And i appreciate the opportunity to address a few. We are working on standardized investigator training to ensure that all our investigators under the law including whistleblower protections and can apply it in the investigations consistently. We are finalizing written policy and how oawp investigates the disclosures it receives. The policies undergoing concurens within v. Many a a. And anticipate it will be issued before october 21st 2019. We are also engaged and collaborating with v. A. s office of Inspector General and osc to timize training for all v. A. Employees as required by the accountability act. The training addresses methods for making a disclosure, prohibitions against taking action against an employee for making a lawful disclosure and penalties for whistleblower retaliation. The training should be available later in the fall. In addition to kinnously improve the protection shall oawp is actively working on complies complying with other requirements of our thorsoning statute. Including standing up a division to fulfill our requirement to record, track, review and confirm v. Chl as implementation of recommendations from audits and investigations conducted by the kwoft accountability office, the office of inspector gentle wsh v. Chl a office of skmeld inspector and the off of special counsel. Since my appointment ive met with several swernl and external stakes hoerlds including the hr stf, Veterans Service organizations, a nonprofit such as whistleblowers of america. I valued input i received and look forward to kinning to discuss ways to improve whistleblower protection with all stake hoerlds. As a veterans, registered nurse former investigator on the subcommittee and now assist secretary for oawp i understand that whistleblowers have a Critical Role in stopping misconduct within the organization. The secretary and i value all v. Chl a employees and whistleblowers and their commitment to improving care and services for our veterans. I want v. A. To be place where an employee can trust thattis or her management will take allegations of retaliation or wrongdoing seriously. Encourage staff to raise concerns and not retaliate retaliate against staff raising the concerns. Mr. Chairman, we look forward to working with this committee and our internal and external stake hoerlds to identify opportunities to and best practices to enhance v. Chl as ability to protect whistleblowers. This concludes my testimony and im prepared to respond to any questions you may have. Thank you very much dr. Bonzanto. Id like to recognize the inspector jeshl general at the department of Veterans Affairs mr. Mike mistle. Ranking member bergen chairman pappas, members of the subcommittee. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss the importance of whistleblowers to the office of Inspector General. We treat all complaintants as whistleblowers. That is, we provide the same protections, respond with respect, carefully evaluate their concerns and safe guard confidentiallety. The oig relies heavily on allegations investigations and complaints from v. A. Employees, veterans and families, congress and the public when deciding where to focused our resources. There are countless examples of how whielt blowers and other complaintants have driven change, not only for the matter under review but frequently at the systems level threw changes in policies, practices and personnel. An individuals decision to bring allegations forward should not have to be weighed against possible adverse actions. The whistleblower protection act prohibits reprisal against public employees, former impose or applicants for employment for reporting a violation of law, rule or regulation. That prohibition extends to reports of gross mismanagement and waste of funds, abuse of authority, or a substantial and specific danger to Public Health or safety. The oig operates a hotline staffed by a dedicated team to receive whistleblower complaints and other information. Or hotline received over 35,000 contacts in fiscal year 18 and over 15,000 contacts for the First Six Months of fiscal year is 19. Ever contact is reviewed and processed and acknowledged by an analyst upon receive. We receive information via telephone, faks owe fax, web submission form on the website. In addition there are posters on in the v. A. Facilities how to contact the oig. As a result of our site visits and other engagements with stake hoerlds oig staff may be contacted by individuals directly with information or allegations of wrong doing. The oig interacts with other oversight entities to ensure all available resources and protections are trabl to complaintants. There are many agency nas complaintants can go to for redress. The oig website including frequently asked questions, relate theed to hotline inquiries, that outline the types of complaints addressed by the oig and other offices. It also provides Contact Information for those entities. This information is further provided to individuals who call or write the oig hotline. Although the oig advises individuals contacting our hotline how to reach many agencies with the authority to provide relief, we have formalize z the exchange of information, particularly for allegations of of retaliation. The oig directs the complaintants to the v. A. Office of accountability appear whistleblower protection and to the office of special counsel. As par of our continuous efforts to improve our responses and further our relationship with whistleblowers, i will be delivering the keynote address at the annual hotline worldwide outreach conference which honors whistleblowers on National Whistleblower Appreciation Day this july 30th. In conference sponsored by the department of defense oig analyzes best practices, discusses Lessons Learned and provides examples of challenges facing the hotline oversight community. In addition, we recognize that some v. A. Employees and contractors may be confused about when it is appropriate to contact the oig about fraud, waste and aabuse in v. A. Programs and operations. To that end we have requested that v. Chl a share with all employees an email on National Whistleblower Appreciation Dayna has information on how and when to contact the oig pmt we are also working with v. A. To for more formal training on the oig and the various avenues for redress available to those with complaints. The oig values whistleblowers and the information they provide as we explore areas for potential oversight of v. A. It is incumbent upon v. A. Stake hoerlds to protect whistleblowers from retaliation and foster of an environment where no one fears the consequences of reporting room for improvement. I have encourage all whistleblowers to contact us with concern and we will treat them with respect, dignity and in confidence to the greatest extent possible. Mr. Chairman this concludes my statement. And i would be happy to any questions that you or other members of the subcommittee may have. Thank you, mr. Mistle. Ill recognize our third witness mr. Henry concerner, the special counsel. And mr. Kerner you are recognized are for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Good evening, chairman pappas, Ranking Member bergman members of the committee. Osc is deeply committed to veterans and im honored to be here to discuss the way the osc can assist the v. A. In providing best possible to veterans. Whistleblowers are vital to ensuring problems within an organization are identified and fixed. Oscs probation contribution to the process twofold. First osc provides a safe channel for v. A. Employees ob applicants for employment and former employees to make disclosures of wrongdoing. And osc has authority to demand a full investigation of any tloezs warranting one. Second, osc works to ensure that v. A. Whistleblowers do not take retaliation. We seek rect corrective and disciplinary action where we establish retaliation appear and we work with leader strp to train impose on prohibited Personnel Practices. We are committed to helping the v. A. By ensuring the patriot iks employees who tweeted their professional lives to serving veterans some veterans themselves can do jobs without fear of reprice epricele. Like you i watched with significant concern as with brave whistleblowers came forward at the hearing last month to describe tordeals at te hands of management. I submit add longer state your name laying out processes and procedures in detail at osc. But thought i would focus the brief rorl flrks to scribe zroot efforts i have undertaken in protecting whistleblowers. The our commitment to kmilt bloergs is evidenced through leadership and process enhancements. I met with the leadership of the v. A. As soon as i became the head of oscp first with secretary shulkin in november 2017 and later with secretary wilkie in august 2018, a short time after his confirmation. Ivyl also had several discussion was the general counsel and now acting deputy secretary mr. Jim bern, a osc alum news and dr. Bonzanto as oawp. And also met mr. Mistle. I explained my fierce commitment to supporting whistleblowers and reporting epreventing retaliation and i found each of the leaders supportive. While its clear that more needs to be done to stems whistleblowers reprisals at the v. A. , i take the leaders at their word and count on them to assist by improving the culture at their department. Spernlly, the corner stone of my leadership at osc involves wla call old style Customer Service. Providing whistleblowers Accurate Information as quickly as possible, even or perhaps especially if it turns out we are unable to assist them. I am keenly aware of the criticism that osc can take too long to process cases which is why one of my first managerial zipgsss to casey creation of a efficiency working group. Following the recommendations i reorpgd osc by merging two units into one. As a result of the new internal processes osc has been much more efficient at assigning cases to earn tos and closing cases where osc may not have jurisdiction. Opt osc staff attorneys have forwarded me emails from complaintants grateful to have received introductory email within the first week of filing with us. Of course we still face a nearly 2,600 case backlog and it will come as no surprise to learn we need more funding to be able to reduce the backlog and provide faster processing times to whistleblowers. But despite the backlog we strive to be as responsive as possible. Osc is part of a mosaic of whistleblowers Resources Available to v. A. Impose. Including the office of accountability in whistleblower protection. Oawp and mspb. As an independent agency osc delivers benefits that only can we provide. Part of that advantage lies in the world of disclosuring wrongdoing. Where the whistleblower is afforded the opportunity the to directly participate in the investigation of the allegations by provide comments to osc. And those comments and the report itself are then made public. This is a feature unique to osc and whistleblower comments are crucial to my final evaluation of sufficiency and reasonableness of the agency investigation. On the retaliation side, osc offers unique Enforcement Authority with our ability to litigate actions before the mspb taking the decision of whether to correct the retaliation out of the hands of agency management. The specific features allow osc to stand out in the field of whistleblower related entities. Thank you for holding the hearings. Process i look forward to answering your questions. Thank you, mr. Kerner. Next id like to recognize our fourth witness, mr. Tristan leavitt. The most senior official serving the board as acting chief executive and Administrative Officer. Mr. Leavitt you are recognized for five months. Good evening, chairman and Ranking Member and members of the subcommittee. Im the general counsel of merit systems protectioned about board because there are no Senate Confirmed members im the Administrative Officer of the agency as the chairman said. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. As requested my testimony will focus broughtly on the process by which whistleblower cases are brought before the mspb and jude indicated. In year happens to mark the 40th anniversary of mspb Opening Doors allege following the Civil Service reform act. It opened with a series of findings stating it is the policy of the United States that merit system pribl principles should be expressly stated to furnish guidance to federal attentions and prohibited Personnel Practices should be statutorily defined to enable federal employees to avoid conduct under mining the principles and the integrities of the merit system. Civil Service Reform act recognized the value of whistleblowers. The ninth mayor ut snm states employees should be protected against reprisal for lawful scloes. The mspb was established to fill an jude kaer to role filled by the Civil Service existing. Its to provide a fair and opportunity to develop a record on the issue and hear the matters appealed based on evidence submitted and in accordance with statutes and case law. As someone previously receiving many allegations of executive branch whistleblower retaliation working on capitol hill i recognize that this mission as established by congress is critical in helping distinguish which reprisal claims are meritorious. The prohibited Personnel Practices related to retaliation prohibited reprice albased on different types of protected activity under the sttd in order to receive corrective axe in a whistleblower retaliation claim, the appellate must demonstrate he made a disclosure, the agency threatened or took a action against him or her and the protected disclosureses was a cribbing factor in the personal action even after a finding that a disclosure was a contributing inferno sfoeks protection is not granded if the agency demonstrate it would have taken the same action in the absence of disclosure. If they believe a personnel practice like whistleblower occurred outside of cases brought by osc. Mspb hears two types of whistleblower cases. The first case is aloud otherwise appealable action. This involves an adverse personnel action directly appealable to the board. Such as removal reduction in grade or pay or suspension of more than 14 days. In such appeal both the appealable matter and the claim of reprisal for whistleblower will be reviewed by the mspb. The claim of whistleblower retaliation is termed aed firmt defense if the agency proves it met the evidence he had shear standard for taking the action the appellant may attempt to plof the agency nevertheless took the action in reprisal. The second type of whistleblower cases is the cases in which the individual filed a complaint but osc lass not sought corrective action. This is a individual right of action or ira appeal most surround axes not directly paeflable to the direct. For example a suspension under 14 days or reassignment with no reduction in pay or grade. In such circumstances the appellant to required to exhaust the administrative remedy. In an ira appeal the will goord are not decide the personalle action other than the connection with the claim of reprice al. In both types of cases an administrative judge may grant the stay of action add issue. Is similarly osc may request any member chl board order a stay. Near needless to say in authority has been complicated by the lack of any current sitting board members. That said, despite the lack of a board kwour up since january 2017, the 60 or so administrative judges at mspb process continue to hear cases of the 5447 cases administrative judges decided in fa 2018 approximately one fichgt from from a. Chl ray vees. They have decided claims in the past three fickle years and the same number in fy 2019 in closing one general trend i do want to note not specific to the v. A. The increasing complexity of the complaints and the adjudication. It is nngdsingly rare to see a case in which the paleant made a sim disclosure in retaliation for which the agency just took one personnel action. As osc can atester the typical case often involves multiple ails of alleged whistle bloerg and several retaliatory personnel actions because multitest part for jurisdiction and proof of the claims must be applied to each protected disclosure, whistleblower appeals are often difficult and time consuming to hear and decide. Nevertheless, i believe the mspb understanding that its counted on to be the front line for the issues. And wants to give full appear fair consideration to each appeal in replying the law. Thank you for the opportunity to. Thank you, we have two additional witnesses on the pannell mr. Tom devine, the legal direct director of the Government Accountability probabilities and miss jas lynn garrick the founders of whistleblowers of testimony they both offered testimony at our june 25th session on the earlier panel and brought them back to allow a more full discussion today. But since they already gave testimony at that time they wont give additional testimony today. With that i want to thank each witness for in re testimony well begin the questions portion of in hearing. And ill begin by recognizing myself for five minutes of questioning dr. Bonzanto if i could start with you, i appreciate your comments here today. And i think it was made very clear to us by some of the witnesses we heard from earlier by folks who have reached out to my office that we have a culture problem at the v. Chl a. And i believe you recognize this during the nomination process. After our hearing last month we heard from whistleblowers about retaliation thats ongoing and its clear to me that there still needs to be culture change underway at the v. A. Our six months into your job i wonder how you assess the transition you said needed to happen and will you address that moving forward. Sir, thank you so much for the question. And im i do have to say coming from the subcommittee as an investigator and now on the other side there is definitely a change in the culture where there is more support from leadership about engaging staff and having conversations regarding retaliation or regarding the importance of engaging staff in addressing concern. For the first six month ive been there ive seen secretary wilkie lead this in conversation with leadership, the importance of Customer Service, importance of engaging we engage our veterans and listen to veterans but also engaging the staff and listening and the sbrernl Customer Service breaking the silos and conversations across the administration to improve the Staff Engagement. I think thats a positive thing. I do have to say when i came onboard, too, the partnership for Public Services which assesses best places to work in federal government from 2017 to 2018 v. A. Moved from the bottom third best places to work in government to the top third. And i think thats a positive sign from 2017 to 2018. I think thats a good dishneau dsh thats a good sign we are heading in the right direction. Now, there is room for improvement. And i admit to that. And i think the office of accountability is part of that changing skurlt skurlt as engaging with stakeholders to improve our processes. Thank you for that. Im wondering if i could ask the other other government witnesses here the same question. How would you assess the culture at the v. A. In terms of hospitable to when whistleblowers . And what needs to be done . What steps need to be taken by v. A. To ensure that whistleblowers are listened to, that theyre protected . Sure, ill take a stab at that. I think its very important that it obviously starts at the top. We need good leadership. When you have good leadership with people as i indicated i met with dr. Bonzanto, i also met with the gc and of course the secretary. And i have their commitment that they are ner committed to trying to make to improve the culture. So i take them at their word. We at osc have extensive relationship with the v. Many a. The v. A. Has the most cases with us. We have a lot of communication with them. Starts at the head. But my team meets we have monthly meetings with them. We also have bi monthly meeting on the 714 process, involving discipline. But in addition to leadership you also have to have education. You have to have people know what the whistleblower laws are. Obviously once you have the commitment to then abide by the laws and then finally you need accountability. You have to have discipline and accountability. This is where osc comes in to try to assist with the culture change at the v. A. It certainly takes time to change culture. I think the culture was in place for a number of years. A little more than a year ago we were dealing with the office of accountability and whistleblower protection by fighting with them about access to documents. So certainly we have come a long way from that time. I think with dr. Bonzantos leadership they are headed in the right direction. Its going to take time. And with whistleblowers they have to prove to them that its a place they feel comfortable coming toward and there will not be adverse actions against them i would add along with ig mitt montanale it does take time. In the way culture abcab nebulous to dp. There are a lot of layers in the v. A. My experience on the hill when you had a problem of culture at the place it took a long time, sustained effort, along with just commitment from individuals but to help people have the confidence that things can work out for the best. Well, thank you. And dr. Bonzanto, you need o you know, im specifically concerned about whistleblower protection. Thats a charge of your office. I understand that new pl policies are under way. And youve arudded to those. I want to get a higher degree of confidence today that the steps are underway to improve the protections of the individuals so valuable to the process. Could you highlight the steps again for us to make sure that were going to have greater confidence coming out of the hearing that things are headed in the right direction. Of course, sir. I have to say one of the things i was listening through to hearings and also engaging with stake hoerlds were some of the things that ive learned in our process appear meeting with other departments within the executive branch is to improve anonymity and communication was whistleblowers, right. So they understand where they are in the process. That Customer Service like mr. Kerner said its a soft still. Understand that there might be a fear of retaliation. And giving thimm confidence in the system and understanding they are putting their jobs on the line coming forward. Thats something that we are working on improving internal to oawp. The other thing is empathy. Empathizing with whistleblowers and understanding their perspective. Thats something those skills have to be developed with my staff. Im working on that. As i work on roehling out the policies its also improving training for the staff, to understand the importance of this. And engaging with leadership throughout the v. A. And taking in from the top, you know, working with the secretary to improve communications and the importance of Staff Engagementment is where we are at. You have my commitment to that. Thats something i will continue to have the conversations about, im sure. Thank you, i appreciate your response. Im not satisfied with where things stand today. But i look forward to kinning to work with you on this. And certainly others have questions as with well. With that id like to tehran turn it over to the rank willing member general burger bergman for five minutes of questioning. Thank you, mr. Chairman. As we put up our chart on the front end it it does violate the k. I. S. Principle a bit from the confusing the most important people i think to understand that how it works are the people who would be your whistleblowers. Whether they understand they may not understand on the front end how protected they are. But if they have confidence and they can see how the system is designed to work for them initially, that will give build their confidence to come forward. So having said that, communications being key, now this is dr. Bonzanto and mr. Mistle and mr. Kerner, id like a Quick Response from each on the following. One of the major grievances we hear is that whistleblowers believe that organizations investigating their disclosures do not communicate inter interoffice if you will, effectively. What level of communication should a whistleblower expect from your offices . And what barriers exist to meeting the whistleblowers expectations today with respect to that communication . Sir, i can tell you a barrier that exists in my office is that i cant disclose who the individuals are to the oig or the osc without their permission. If they choose not to that makes it difficult tp if they reported that they shared information with any of the entities that thats complicatesed. We might be investigating the same thing without knowing. Okay. When a complaintants contacts our office, their contact is acknowledged, if they do it through a web submission, fax, porn a phone call we send out an acknowledgement that we got it. We also then and if the case is accepted we let them know the case has been accepted. At that point forward, until were done, due to confidentiality and other reasons its difficult to give an update on where we are. But when the case is closed meaning either we dont have allegations or we have findings we will publish a report. And the complainant will then be able to see the results of their complaint. Okay. So when i talked about the Customer Service at osc what we are talking about is three pillars. One is we want to give Accurate Information in a timely manner in a polite way. Its really important that we provide that Customer Service to people. So when we get contacted we try to get to people as soon as possible. So we have undered the statute, for example, what youve described as the retags section we have 15 days to get back to people that file with us. We to do it under five days to make sure that we get back to them right away. We tell them we have their case. They have an assigned investigator or attorney who they can contact. To make sure that they are heard, that we get to their cases with some dispatch and that we handle the cases in a timely manner. When you ask about barriers, we have not insufficient staff for the cases we have. We have 6,000 new filings every year and a small office of over about 140 fulltime employees including some in field offices. The barrier is we try to get the cases as soon as possible. But sometimes we just have a lag and a backlog that takes a while to get to. Okay. Thank you. Dr. Bonzanto, oawp seems to perform functions that are similar to those of oig and osc. To what extent can oawp create a synergy among the organizations in order to best address the whistleblower cases that arise . Sir, one of the things thats different with the oawp is that we are within the department all report directly to the secretary. Part of the law requires us to review review, receive, track and confirm implementation of recommendations from the investigative entities. Thats something thats unique. Its also within the department we have one area where we are receiving disclosures. Its getting the data where we can have the whistleblower disclosures, recommendations from the ia, osc, gao and office of skmeld inspector pulling the data together to identify opportunities for improvement within the department. And thats something thats very unique in what we are doing in oawp. And i think thats different than what the other entities do. They give their recommends but in v. A. We have the responsibility of ensuring the recommendation are implemented. Thank you. And mr. Chairman, i yield back. Thank you. I now would like to recognize miss rice for five minutes of questioning. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Dr. Bonzanto, although the v. A. Has procedures for investigating whistleblower complaints, these procedures have allowed the Program Office of facility where a whistleblower reported misconduct to conduct the investigation. So gao even found ininstances in which managers investigated themselves for misconduct. How do you plan on addressing this issue Going Forward to ensure independence in the report in the investigation and that things are done in an unbiased way . That for oawp we investigate all allegations related to retaliation. We also investigate allegations into Senior Leadership poor performance and management. We do have the authority splar to se so refer cases back to the administration. Part of the improving the processes internal is we are working on a questionnaire to basically triage the cases to ensure we are not referring cases back to the Program Office where a manager who is involved in the case is going to be part of that investigation. So its improving my internal training for my staff and also creating these testimony plates where they can have a standard collect ch checklist of questions to improve anonymity and improve communications ensure people involved in the ails are not part of the investigations. I mean thats good because i know we heard before about a level of frustration on the part of whistleblowers that their its hard to have an unbuys aed approach when the person heading the investigation is involved. Right. So one of the other what we heard and it was really disturbing in the last hearing how actions taken by the v. A. Against whistleblowers follow them for the rest of their careers. And impact in re future Employment Opportunities if they were to leave. But it doesnt seem to be the case for the more senior level employees who retaliate against them. So one issue that i would be interested to hear yours and anyone elses feedback on that i think speaks to addressing the cultural issue and Holding Senior level employees accountability is how relevant information or documentation on instances of whistleblower retaliation or substantiated misconduct is shared across the v. Chl a v. A. And Leadership Levels opinion a if a senior employee had been implicated in a whistleblower disclosure but no action taken against them for misconduct, is this type of information shared across the v. A. And if not, do you think it should be . Are you to clarify you are speaking about if an individual there is a claim against retaliation to substantiate if there is a recommendation regarding that we have to report back. If the recommendation coming out for disciplinary action regarding recommends retaliation is not followed we actually have to share that information back. I report directly to the secretary. So leadership is aware if that doesnt happen. I mean, it just seems that there is there are more negative there is a much more much greater negative impact on the whistleblowers oh obviously than the people retaliating against them. Right. It doesnt seem to be that much accountability at the higher levels in the v. A. For actions they may take against a whistleblower versus the sometimes careerending impact it has on the whistleblowers themselves. So how do you how can we make that a more consistent across the board i mean, the whole culture of the v. Chl a starts at the top and if people in higher positions are not held accountability when whistleblowers are actually having a much larger impact, professional and personal impact how do we address that inconsistenty there. Part of our office when we talk about disciplinary action is to talk track those. Thats part of the Data Analysis we have to do. Well be able to identify the areas where a leader is refusing to take action against someone who is claiming who has an dib a substantiated allegation. So can you . Something you are just starting to try to get ofgs information on. Right this is something ive been in the office six months. This is important and critical and the skmt also said we want to know where these data points are. How are you going going about compiling that information . Its through recommendations for disciplinary action. When we give a action for disciplinary action if the actions are not taken thats something we track within the office. Youll obviously be sharing those results with us too. Yes, yes. Okay thank you very much. Thank you, mr. Chairman i yield back. Thank you,ite id like to recognize mr. Bost for five minutes. Thank you. Dr. Bonzanto we had issues in my district. And of the olgd whistleblower retaliation. One of the main concerns is the staff has heard about andwas communicated several times is individual va employees. Its the communication between your office and individual employees. In your opinion what is a reasonable expectation of time from your office to disclosure and retaliation complaints . Obviously not everything reported is going to be have the evidence to back it up in the initial claim. When this happens and a claim cannot be confirmed does your office at the va employee who sent this disclosure are retaliation know . So that they know the actions are being taken . That something we are working internally to improve. They are at five days for something, so thats the goal we strive to get to. I would say my expectation is that each employee has within seven working days that we give a response that we received your allegation. One of the things we are working on his understanding where in that journey from blowing the whistle to getting to the investigative phase and looking at those touch points. We have communicating to my staff and the importance of the whistleblower and being investigated in the process. One thing i want to recognize is that a lot of times employee want to know whether or not disciplinary action was taken. Employees have a right to privacy and thats something we informed them how to go about getting information regarding the case but as an entity we dont disclose to a with the whistleblower whether or not disciplinary action was taken against what they alleged. They are both employees therefore they both okay. They both have the right to privacy and due process. For all the government witnesses, the next question i have, sometime during the process is obviously whenever they want anonymous to you, sometime they want anonymity, that doesnt happen. Sometimes who had the whistle blown on them finds out who it was that did that. How do you handle those situations . For ms pp we dont conduct investigations in the way that the other agencies do so the agency will now. Week work we work hard to make sure it doesnt happen but sometimes if its an office that has a small number of people, it sometimes is fairly obvious. We always balance the individuals right to privacy when they do report it to us with a need to go further. We may talk to the individual as well who provided us the information and explain to that person that for us to go forward these are the steps we are going to have to take just to make sure the person is aware of it. But, we try very hard to protect the confidentiality of anyone that comes to us who asks to remain confidential and i believe we do accomplish that. We dont disclose the identities of the person making the claim unless they want us to. If theres a need for them, for example by getting a stay of personal action against them, sometimes they will volunteer. For the most part we protect peoples identities pick and we are also committed. If you choose to remain anonymous its very difficult to ask questions regarding retaliation if you are choosing to remain anonymous. But, we do not expose employees information unless they choose to pick one last question because we have less than a minute here. Individual employees understand the process of bringing retaliation a complaint, or do the employees think that every office can handle them . Do they know the process . He was very clear about the process which is a nonofficer we understood very clearly. Do you think these employees under this process now understand how to truly file claims . Im not confident thats happening. With that being said, oawp is working with the osc to develop training with regard to whistleblower cases like whistleblowing reporting when you want to make a disclosure. I dont think they do. Thats why i frequently ask employees what do they know about the oig . Where would they go for a complaint . Its all levels. Some of the more senior people dont really understand the relationship between oawp, osc, oig. Thats why we feel strongly that the va ought to put out a training that weve prepared on when to come to the oig, went to come to some of the other avenues, and we hope that training gets implemented. We work very hard to get whistleblowers to know about us. We tried to me is raise the profile and do press releases. We also count on the va to notify them. Let them know that this exists as a , we also do mandatory trainings for supervisors and others about personal practices. We are hoping that employees do know about osc and we have press releases and other ways to make ourselves known, we get a lot of cases from the va so we think a lot of them know about us. I apologize for going over time. I yield back. You are recognized for five minutes. I want to follow up with what you are saying about these trainings. I feel like we can do this in a deliberative and quantitative manner. First of all, you mentioned there are trainings that you hope could be happening . Am i correct in saying that . Correct. Who is saying no to you . No one has said no. We are working to the process. Its a long process. Weve put together a Training Program. The va has a pretty expensive Training Program for a lot of different areas including maintaining confidentiality of documents, protected information, etc. No one is saying no . What is the timeline . We are hoping its sooner than later but its been months in the work and we keep saying another step needs to happen. Another step needs to happen. Do you feel that it could go faster . Absolutely. Could we need to talk to . Senior leadership at the va. Can you give us a name . Secretary wilkie . So we should talk and to urge training to go faster so people understand who to go to and when to go to them . Thats correct. You can count that we will do that. What about staffing . Whether its oig or any of the other offices you represent, its the secondlargest department. Hundreds of thousands of employees. Do you feel that you are adequately staffed to both respond to whistleblowers as well as protect them thereafter . Currently currently i am adequately staffed. I dont think we are adequately staffed for what requirements obligations and responsibilities are. As the va has grown in tremendous size over the last 5 to 10 years our office for a long time remained relatively flat. We appreciate the increases congress has recently given us and we are getting to a better level but we dont believe we are adequate. What do you think you do need in order to adequately fulfill the expectations that we all associate with the oig or responsibilities . The house has appropriated 222 million for us which would be an increase from the previous. We want to grow in a measured, controlled way. We think that would be adequate but we hope this would be a series of increases Going Forward. As i alluded to a couple of times, weve had a tremendous growth in cases and weve had a significant backlog pick 2600 case backlog and how long will it take you to get through that . It depends on the staffing level. If your staffing level is maintained. We get about 6000 new cases and resolve 6000 new cases but have a backlog of 2600 every year. You are telling us thats a relatively sixmonth backlog . Thats right. Walked me through then, from an individuals perspective, whistleblower comes forth, it becomes a part of the backlog, six months . I dont know if it takes six months because not all cases are the same. Some are more fact specific. Backlog, that is six months. What are some of the consequences that weve seen . We dont just get to someones case which means you may have a very meritorious case, and by the time our examiner gets to that, weeks or months have gone by and frustration can you give us an exhibit specific example . Whats happen were there has been a consequence after the backlog . It would be that it whistleblower had a case sitting with us and we dont get to it for a while. I saw you had testimony at the last hearing where one of the witnesses talked about how a case took a couple of years. Why does this take a couple of years . It takes a couple of years sometimes because of discovery but sometimes they are changes in staffing or people dont get to what do you need to address this backlog . More staffing. How many more . We are at 28 million which is 1,000,000 1 2 more than we have now. That would be a lot of help. Misread a wagon missed for a minute. 35,000 hotline contacts in fiscal year 2018. What percentage are investigated . How your office decides whether a complaint merits further investigation, or should this be disclosed without action . Of the 35,000 contacts as i testified, we analyzed and evaluated each one of those. The number that turned into with the investigation is a relatively small percentage. Again, its a resource issue. We take the matters that we believe are the most significant, most impactful, have the greatest risk to veterans or tax dollars. We can only take a relatively small number. A number of the other cases we may refer to va and ask them to take a look at it and report back to us or just refer to them. Or the others we may send to another agency such as ofc which is more capable of handling it if its a retaliation case since mr. Office has more authority over what attali retaliation we do. Mr. Turner, of approximately 2300 va cases how many were disclosure cases and what percentage of disclosure cases did osc close without investigation . How does osc determine whether a disclosure warrants further investigation . What happens is in terms of determination we have to meet a legal standard. Thats call substantial likelihood. So when we are on a case we have 45 days by statute to make a substantial or likely determination. If it does rise in the opinion to the stander, then we refer to the agency and they find the investigation. We dont actually do the investigation. If it reaches that level then we close that case. I think in terms of the last cases one second. We have approximately 2100 va cases. The disclosure cases at va were 431 and i dont have its about 39 . I dont have the exact number of how many we closed but weve most certainly dealt with they were close without investigation . If they do not rise to the level of a substantial likelihood those will be closed. We have 431 and then we had 642 va disclosure cases. They will definitely be addressed at this point within the statutory requirement. Thank you. I yields back the balance of my time. Id like to recognize mr. Cisneros. You said that the va definitely needed a culture change and that needed to happen at the top. How is it that the change, the secretary is dedicated to this. How are we getting that down to the va facility so that they know that a culture change is happening . How is your Office Making sure that supervisors know that retaliation against whistleblowers is no longer going to be tolerated . This is something when we speak about internal Customer Service, we will give you an example that we are doing, the secretary has town halls with employees so he is leading from the top and promoting the importance of Staff Engagement so something even internal having calls with my staff and having all hands calls with my staff. Thats an example of what we are doing to promote the importance of Staff Engagement and listening to employees. Hes talking to your staff. Hes taking leadership and im also doing that as an example of what we are doing. The other part is the training we are developing regarding retaliation and why it shouldnt be happening, what our offices are doing to protect whistleblowers. Is this training for supervisors or every employee . What specifically are redoing are we doing to let supervisors know that this treatment is no longer going to be tolerated . Is there anything being done specifically for them are they getting the same that everyone else is getting . All employees have the same training but supervisors investigate retaliation. Thats what we are charged to do and i get that but how are we changing the culture . I get that you are putting this out to employees and that its okay to report the whistleblowers but how are we letting supervisors know that this isnt going to be tolerated anymore . That the way that used to be done is going to change . What is being done differently to address supervisors that they need to change the way they are doing business the way business has been done in the past . Thats through training and promoting the offices we have here. You are saying the training is for everybody so its probably a general training given to all employees. Is there a specific training dedicated to supervisors to let them know that when you are a supervisor, like just last week i had to go to a training that was meant for members of congress and now i train my staff. It wasnt all members everyone who is employed by the house. What are we doing specifically for supervisors to let them know that business is changing, the way the business used to be done. I could take the exact training happening for the supervisors regarding retaliation. We have employee training for every employee but specifically for supervisors you are chomping at the bit there. In 2017 a law was passed that requires retaliation whistleblowing training for all supervisors. We do that on an annual basis. Is it effective . Its a very good Training Program. I recently took it so i can personally say that i found it very helpful. If i could answer some of this i was going to let you, mr. Devine, and miss garrett i wanted to give you a chance right . I know it has been six months but i would love to hear your thoughts from those you represent. What you are really asking is about accountability. When we talk about training weve talked about training for years and years. That is a paper tiger answer and its so infuriating because there is no fear training. There has been whistleblower training. Mr. Devine does a lot of training online. Theres lots of training. The fact that we can show from so many of the people who contact us that they never get responses to emails. There is no policy in place that explains any of this. The va put out a 14 page report with a pneumonic instead of a policy statement. That is so unprofessional. Im at a loss for words. The fact that we dont have a good Bargaining Agreement with the union, we dont have a Mentor Program that we started that got disbanded. There are a lot of things that the va was doing and could be doing. We tried to get regular accountability meetings, scheduled quarterly meetings to go over disclosure issues. But the fact that not a single manager who has wasted government money has but veterans and their care at risk has not been held accountable, that should be something the committee should be furious about. We certainly welcome the cause for improved culture and the appointment. The Whistleblower Community pledges full support for her. Better attitudes at the top, and substitute for results. The results arent Getting Better from our experience. Before the hearing last month, a day before one of the key witnesses was fired by the va. Thats intended to send a message. They been working with office of special counsel mediation attorneys trying to resolve six whistleblower cases and despite the efforts by the office of special counsel, the va has not been willing to resolve any of those cases in a civilized manner. Any issue that is a good weathervane for whether or not this is making it into reality, five years ago that scandal broke and it horrified the nation. The va promised to do much, much better. All three whistleblowers were disclosing ongoing problems with secret waiting list. Three that i talked about our on secret waiting lists. Its not going away and its not surprising why its not going away. They had a various corrective Action Program that was doing outstanding work and efforts to correct the problem of secret waiting rooms. That was canceled and replaced with a contractor buddy system and if you look at the transition which happen within the last two years, its impossible to be optimistic. I apologize. We are a little bit over but a couple of us will ask additional questions and we will allow you to expand upon that a bit. Id like to recognize mr. Peterson for five minutes. Maybe we will pick up there. Mr. Devine, we were asking government witnesses to gauge a little bit the culture change that needs to happen and the steps that theyve outlined. You are not satisfied with that. Will you continue to offer any more comments . Its the secret waiting list issue thats just eating at us. The va had a very effective unit. It was going in and cleaning up this mess. However, it was replace and the commission of care applauded their work recommended giving them more resources so they could better pursue their mandate. The va responded to that recommendation by canceling the work of the the erc which laid off career employees. Seasoned veteran professionals and replacing them with an outside contractor under the sleaziest of conditions. The contractor had access to inside budget information in order to customize their proposal. Instituted without prior congressional authorization and required by law. The contractors were benefiting from federal spending for a study on how to replace federal employees with contractors which is illegal. The Actual Contractors were violating acquisition regulations and what has happened with this . Instead of having handson work at the hospitals its a paperwork review where medical centers certify themselves on an honors system to the outside contractors. Theyve canceled the site visits. Theyve stopped making progress and the cost has increased to 150 million. Weve replaced effective corrective action with a buddy system scam mr. Chairman. That doesnt leave me feeling very encouraged about the progress of the veterans administration. We have the wrongdoers investigating themselves. We have government money that doesnt get happily spent and the oig, one of the reports that i site all the time is 11. 7 million that went to caliber while orourke was the head of the. Theres no resolve. Money does not get called back. None of the people responsible for that contract, there was no accountability for that. They recommended more training. Thats why i get so frustrated. And then we have caps on arbitration. Why are they at 5000 . Who will go through that process when that is the resolve . We have employees experiencing cyber bullying. There is no one at the va that will investigate threats. Threats of stocking and physical harm. The oig doesnt do it. The va police dont do it. Who does it . Theres no accountability for that kind of cyber stalking. And then, why do these things take years . I filed an oig complaint with waste and suicide prevention. This is something thats the number one priority but has been open since 2016 while veterans are dying by suicide. Why arent we asking so that 6 million was not spent . What happened to unspent money . Who is being accountable for that . I appreciate your perspective. I want to get one more question and before my time is up and i defer to general bergman. I want to go back to you because in the report at your Office Issued most recently theres a section called on the horizon and eager to learn more about what is just over the horizon for the agency . Included are some fundamental steps issuing a policy on disclosures and investigations, communicating with whistleblowers, developing standardized training, developing specialized investigatory teams including those trained in retaliation matters. There are very specific timelines and i heard you mention a day earlier with respect to the Training Program. Im interested in learning more about the specifics of these things. The timelines for these. So that we can follow the progress and look to hold your agency accountable in the future. Can you provide any of those for us or follow up with those details . I can speak for the timeline as the policy is rolling out. We expect by the first to have directives involving investigations. Thats for the rest of the requirements by the end of the calendar year. I expect to have all of these implemented and hopefully we can start measuring progress to give you some type of idea of where we are by the end of this calendar year. That is vital. I appreciate that. We need to know that information. General bergman id like to turn it over to you for final questions. Inc. You mr. Chairman. I want to set the record straight and make sure i understand. Mr. Devine just said that was fired the day before the last hearing. I sent a letter asking to review under the hold procedures and was advised she was put on a hold. Do you have the ability to confirm where we are on that . If you can take it for the record i will take that for the record. I want to make sure we understand where we are in the process. Places placing hold on actions and thats something we have to protect whistleblowers. And a chance you might know that . I believe we have a hold on it. Lets just double check. All of this is recorded. I checked with the person who does this and she informs me we do have a hold. Anyway my question is mr. Carter, when we talk about Training Programs and getting people up to speed, what is the 23 02c Certification Program . Has va completed that certification and what does certification convey . They are currently in the process of recertifying. They been previously recertified we are recertifying them now. Its a program where osc has taken on the responsibility to voluntarily have a knack of role by teaching and educating supervisors and making sure everyone complies with retaliation and other legal requirements. Specifically we ask as a certifying entity for agencies and as part of the role we work closely to ensure we are meeting all of the outlines to protect whistleblowers and other federal employees. The 170 agencies, for a lot of them we dont actually do the training but provide a lot of the slides and materials and then certifier when they come back and comply with Training Programs. Highyield back. To any members have any additional questions before we close . Seeing none i want to re highlight a couple of points here. First these issues are taken seriously and we will continue to track disclosures. Lets be clear. Whistleblowers are performing a public service, very critical resource and need to be protected. The atty. Gen. Will be issuing a report about whistleblower protection and the september hearing will focus on that review. We are also waiting for information from the Office Accountability and as ive asked for today we are pretty much interested in further details for further policies procedures and timelines of how we can best truck that progress moving forward. Thankfully the testimony i think further hearings are warranted to ensure that things are moving in the right direction but i remain concerned after a hearing at the end of june where we had three witnesses describe some harrowing circumstances that unfolded over many years, individuals who stepped forward trying to do the right thing. We have more work to do and we look forward to talking with you all. I want to express my appreciation for each of those who appeared before us today for offering testimony. We heard a lot of important thoughts from government witnesses and from whistleblower advocates. We thank you for being a part of this today. There wasnt always agreements but the dialogue must continue. Ultimately we are working toward the same goal and that is ensuring the va serves our veterans the best they can. We understand the process can be improved and whistleblowers are part of that process. I look forward to working with all of you. You have an important job ahead of you and as you move ahead make sure that things are headed in the right direction, we stand ready to work with you every step of the way. And turn it improve services for veterans and with that i would like to turn it over to Ranking Member bergman. Thank you mr. Chairman. Very briefly to echo what the chairman said, we all have a responsibility to protect whistleblowers to create a culture in which everyone is held accountable. We will do our part as the elected oversight part of this and we are counting on all of you to do the same so thank you very much for holding this. I really appreciated. We will have five legislative days to include any extraneous material. The subcommittee stands of germ stands adjourned. I was on an airstrip in the remote jungles of guyana having just concluded a convert congressional tour with congressman ryan and we were ambushed on an airstrip. And shot. Was shot 45 times and died on that are airship. I was shot five times on the right side of my body. Sunday night, California Democratic congresswoman jackie spear talks about her memoir undaunted, surviving jonestown, summoning courage and fighting back. When people say was a mass suicide it was not. They were forced to drink this toxic brew by jones and he had many of his guards surrounding the pavilion im sure, to make sure people did as he was told. Sunday night on q and a. Next a portion of a daylong conference on reducing injury risk. This looked at best practices focusing on Emergency Action plans, concussions, and physical and mental wellbeing