Profession, you need to get men to want to do the job because the payee inevitably will go up. [laughter] if you want to explore our nations past, every weekend on cspan3. Next on the civil war, Kristen Pawlak talked about the battle of Wilsons Creek, fought between union and Confederate Forces in southwest missouri in august 1861. She explained that the conflict, while not widely known, is significant because it was the first major battle west of the mississippi river. This talk was a part of a symposium on forgotten battles of the civil war hosted by the emerging civil war blog. Our next speaker will be speaking on the battle of Wilsons Creek. Pawlak. Kristen graduated from Gettysburg College with a bachelor of arts degrees in civil war studies. She has worked for the misery Civil War Museum in st. Louis, the American Battlefield trust, and the Gettysburg College special collections. She currently serves on the board of directors for the marine scholarship foundation. She is working on her first book in the emerging civil war series on the battle of wills and creek. Please join me wilson creek. Please join me in welcoming Kristen Pawlak. [applause] kristen all right. Thank you to all of you. Thank you to emerging civil war. It is such an honor to speak to you all about the battle of Wilsons Creek which was fought in 1861 in a corner of southeastern southwestern home state. The subtitle of this presentation is called this means war the battle of Wilsons Creek. I want to take us back to june 11 of 1861 in to the hotelssouri which is just downtown at one of the Nicest Hotels in the 20th century. Six of the most important early metd early World Leaders there. Aidhave Nathaniel Lyon, his blair, and for the secessionist leaders, you have major clayborn jackson, governor jacksons aide. Peace if to keep the possible. They are there to prevent the outbreak of war in missouri. Last severalwill hours and Brigadier General lion becomes frustrated to the point becomesal lyon frustrated, to the point he looks at the secessionist leaders and has this. Rather than concede to the state of missouri that my government will not bring troops into the state or move troops at its own will into, out of, or through the state, rather than concede to the state of missouri for one single instance the right to dictate to my government in any unimportant, i will see you and you and you and every man and woman and child in the state dead and buried. His means war seriously. ,hats exactly how it was said too. In order for us to understand , we needened that day to go back a little bit, a few right around 1860 21861. Missouri is an american borderland. Is part of a series of the state of missouri. Great take ons a what it was like, but in , weican borderland typically think of it as the transmississippi west. Missourians who are , they actually come from the south. Many are kentuckians, virginians, carolinians. Many are bringing their slaves. We all know the missouri and it also brings maine in as a free state. This is how the stage is set. Juster missouri is not white folk or the enslaved coming into its borders. We have the germans and the irish. Missourians are prounionist. They started to concentrate in single us in the Missouri River valley. To give you a better view of the state in what it looked like, i have this map here. Meanseen, the green shade the european immigrants, their population, where they were concentrated. Higherker the shade, the the percentage that was in slaves. Missouri has 1. 2 million within its borders by 1860. At about 10 of that population are enslaved. O is about 115,000 we all know where for sumter was, but there were a few things with forin missouri sumter, the newly elected governor of missouri, clayborn laiborne jackson has sending rejected volunteers from the state. There was the liberty arsenal in liberty, missouri that is just dubious from kansas city. It gives you an idea the western border of missouri. The liberty arsenal is the itond largest arsenal and had fallen to secessionist in april. To make, the ahead same arsenal that was pictured in the background, this is right around that time. It was quite large. It was one of the largest, if in the largest way 1861 1861 in the south. There are 300,000 arms at the st. Louis arsenal at that time. For missouri and st. Louis to protect this at all costs. To do this, captain Nathaniel Lyon who was in command of company b of the United States infantry regiment, he was stationed at Fort Leavenworth when these civil war officially began, but he was transferred to st. Louis where he would bring about 100 men to guard the arsenal. He does realize the arsenal will take a lot more men than 102 protected, especially knowing that governor jackson he is pictured here again, he has been working with the confederate government, conspiring with them too, in his eyes, bring misery into the confederacy officially enjoin these rebellious states. Militia. Ling for the louis. Outside of st. There in camp jackson. There are about 600 or so. Its hundred to 900. He has got quite a few men with him in this militia. At the same time, they began to. Ongregate governor jackson is awaiting a package to be shipped from baton rouge, louisiana. Arriving in early may are more cannons, including siege guns. Jefferson davis authorized that movement to help governor jackson and the militia captured the st. Louis arsenal, but thats my point to happen because Nathaniel Lyon has been men. To recruit 6000 its not the veterans reserve corps, but the u. S. Reserve corps, a specialized unit founded in st. Louis in 1861. Augustus bush and apple card on heiser are actually part of the in command of the militia is actually this man here, Brigadier General daniel frost. He is the Brigadier General of the militia. Using command. Nathaniel lyon on may 10 will bring his 6000 troops around cam jackson and force is to render. This is what he writes to frost. It is my duty to demand, and i do hereby demand, of you an immediate surrender of your command. Frost has no choice but to surrender. Lyon himself is trying to in prison these militia and prevent them from ever forming up again, but he realizes theres not enough space for several hundred militia to be kept at the st. Louis arsenal. Thatat he decides to do is she was to humiliate them, so he gathers all the militia he captured, marches them through the streets of think lewis. As he does that, a crowd of angry onlookers begins to grow. Another pulled it together. I have an account from someone you probably have heard of. The man had in his hand a small pistol and the ball struck the leg of one of the staff. The regiment staff. There was a moment of confusion and these soldiers began to fire over our heads in the growth. I heard the ball cutting the weeds above our heads and i saw several men and women running in all directions, some of them were wounded. Were killedchild outright. Two or three men were also killed. Were wounded. Hers of course, i could no longer defer action. That was William Tecumseh sherman. Both of them would write about this in their memoirs. This is like a lightning bolt. Ultimately 28 civilians have been killed and 75 wounded. This is not just an event that shook missouri. This was an event that shook the core of the United States and to this event will spiral out of control for the state of missouri. In response to this, missouri is mobilizing for war. Within a matter of days, the state legislature in Jefferson City convenes. They have what is known as the military bill. Ability to give the governor, governor jackson, this unprecedented control over the state militia, these very powerful powers for commanding the military. It also creates this Defense Force known as the Missouri State guard. It also places the former missouri governor and mexicanamerican war hero, Sterling Price, in command. The Missouri State guard is not force. Derate sanctioned it is a state force. When i refer to the state guard, i will call them southerners just because they are not confederate yet. They will later on down the road, a few months after this, and after the battle of Wilsons Creek. Now, the commander who is in command of the department of the west in st. Louis is a gentleman harney. He is not an ardent unionist who is willing to do what ever he can to protect the union. However, he is trying to keep the peace. I think that is really important to remember with him. But because he is not a strong he is quickly replaced by the Lincoln Administration and Nathaniel Lyon will take over that command temporarily until you get john fremont taking command later on. Has the ability to recent troops. He is officially promoted to Brigadier General at this point and he actually raises 11,000 men. That includes reserve guard units and home guard units that will be used to guard rail roads and rivers throughout the campaign. The reminder, june 11 is Hotel Meeting and that was the official declaration of war and this will spiral out of control. This, its a master of two days later, lyon will get his troops mobilize. He is ready to maneuver and start to boost state guards and the proconfederate government. So, this is his strategy beginning june 13. He is looking at two columns. The first column, the column to the north, st. Louis to the capital. Jefferson city, he will take 1700 men with him by steamboat across the Missouri River where he will serve the government. There we go. And franz sigel they will take a column to springfield and the goal is to secure the wire on the telegraph the and the branch to pacific. Those are the main lines of communication. Coming in from leavenworth, kansas is major sturgis. He will have the u. S. Regulars,hich includes infantry artillery, and cavalry. The first and second kansas will join them and they will begin their movement into this eight of missouri. The goal here is to knock out the state guard, as well as the State Government and drives him out of the state. Remember, too, Nathaniel Lyon, he is a connecticut native. He has military experience. He is definitely going to be using the tactics he learned at the academy. So the plan works. Has split his forces into two. He is able to easily get to Jefferson City. Governor jackson will make a request to the rest of the state for 50,000 miseries it guard rendezvous at boonville. Boonville is upriver from Jefferson City and thats exactly where they go. So governors and governor jackson will move up to boonville where he will hopefully, in his eyes, meet up with the rest of the guard. Lyon is able to do that. Lyons troops will engage with a small contingent of state guard, easily driving them from the field. Sigel will take command of this column. Sweeney will remain in st. Louis and secure supplies and supply lines and create a base. So they will be moving from st. Louis to springfield. Lyon is also expecting sturgis to arrive. Will leave boonville a little bit later, july 3. At the same time, after the guards have fled, governor jackson will take a column of men and start moving toward the southwestern area of the state. Safeing price is actually sick. He has diarrhea. He is actually up in lexington until he feels a little bit better and then he is making his way. During this maneuver, those columns are trying to recruit. They are trying to build up the army and utilize this threat of the u. S. Army advancing through the state as a call to arms for many missourians. Arrives in sigel springfield. , the missouriives state guard takes their positions and they will rendezvous in jackson. He gets opportunity and Sterling Price out. He will clash with jacksons column, which will result in the first confederate victory in the campaign. The confederate general in the indian territory has a brigade he will begin to advance into the states. Some historians believe that this is the first confederate invasion of the north. Some may argue differently. I have heard both. This is obviously one of the first. I will say that. This was done after the battle of boonville. The battle of boonville. Chasing governor jackson. You see him holding his belly. He is obviously sick. The third and fourth stages of sturgisaign, lyon and will rendezvous in springfield. Again, they still need a train. This is a very low part of the states. Mccullen has worked with the commander in arkansas. Border. St down the tohas just gotten permission move into missouri if the situation calls for it. At actually, one last thing both of the armies at this point, they are looking for a fight. Nathaniel lyon has departed springfield. He is not entirely sure yet, but mccullochs force has united with frost. Theyve maneuver toward springfield, also knowing that lyon is there. Oath of these armies want to write. Both of these armies want to fight. They have a skirmish while mcculloch will take camp at the wilson creek valley. Thing about wilson creek its wilson creek valley, not wilson creek. I will throw around wilson creek and the battle of will sing creek. Wilson creek. Sterling price they have an interesting relationship, one tension. Ull of a lot of it has to do with the performance of true at boonville. slot of doubts in mcculloch my about whether the state guard can perform. These are green troops. They are armed with squirrel rifles. As they have other weapons that do not fire. Doubt. A lot of so that causes a lot of friction. He also does not believe that price is a competent commander. This is a reminder. The army will settle in wilson creek valley august 6. Mcculloch has full command. Arkansas troops, Missouri State guard, and his brigade on august 4 and that was the result of price pestering him weve got to move. It was mainly he did not believe the State Government was ready to write. So there was that. Things do change in the coming days. Remember, we are not talking very long. The thing is, Nathaniel Lyon is a genius when it comes to intelligence and securing springfield and lines of communication. The strength of his army, all of that. So it has been very difficult for the western army, very difficult for them to get any word of what happened until august 8, two days before the battle. August 8, two women from springfield arrive in the western army camp, alerting isulloch and price that lyon anxious. He is growing nervous. He knows that he is outnumbered. He is actually outnumbered over to the one. He doesnt know this yet, but they also know that he knows he is outnumbered. Its just what degree . Lyon is contemplating falling and that would be a safe route. That is something they are considering area considering. Price, we gotses to move. We need to move. Rice finally gives in. Ok. The orders go in. They attack at dawn the next way. However, thunderstorms begin to roll in, forcing mcculloch to call off the attack. That mainly has to do with the troops not having cartridges. But heres the thing. Calls of thech attack, he actually forget to put out in advance guard. So they have warning. Theres about 12,000 troops. About 10,000 that are able to fight. You can see how these are broken the Missouri State guard underprice. Troops,nsas state Brigadier General nicholas pierce. The army of the west. There is springfield right now. Samsrst brigade is under verges. The second under sam sturgis, and theyd under sigel, are armed little bit better. They are armed mainly with rifles and mexican war era musket. Muskets. Theres a lot of contemplation by lyon and his subordinate whether to attack or retreat your it again, he knows that he is outnumbered. Just not how much. Fremont is in command of the western department. He has been contemplating how he could distribute any new true. He has been mainly sending them to the southeastern corridor. Theres a lot of movement there. Of a confederate invasion. Fremont is occupied with that. Theres also a significant enlistments. Iring majority are scheduled to expire by the end of the month. He knows that. He is crunched for time. Verwhelming numbers he is completely outnumbered. He will not find that mcculloch has united with price until august the ninth when some of his men that are out on recon stumble i believe it was a farm. They stumble in and somebody , we had texash troops up in here. Texas troops . Under mccullochs command. So they do know. That was the confirmation lyon needed to know. I am outnumbered over two to one. A very scary situation. Most important, he believes the army needs to fall back here if they are running low on ammunition. They need to get back, get more men. Lyon is a little hesitant. Is asking do we attack or what after the meeting, thomas when he comes up and has a hearttoheart with him. We need convince him, to attack. It thats exactly what he decides to do. He will attack. Strategyso offers a instead of attacking headon straight to the wilson creek ley, siegel is offering a to divide the army. Typically we think of lee at chancellorsville for dividing your army even when it is outnumbered but you can say as well that happens to hear. Lion will order his man at 5 00 p. M. To support springfield on august the ninth and they begin their movement for the wilson creek valley. They go along the road to the southwest. As they approached the wilson wings, lion, both and siegel they will ranch off of the wire road and they will do a double envelopment attack that is the plan. In the earlyt Morning Hours of august the 10th two rest before they begin their actual attack. Nathaniel lyon will order his army to wake up at 4 00 in the morning to attack. Lyon the storm. He will go at the doubleclick ethic pushes his way south and as he does so, he is beginning to run into some of these troops. Thinking that ok its actually the picket line but it wasnt. These are members of the Missouri State guard who have gone on a foraging expedition to go get more food. As they are doing that, they are running into an entire advancing column of federal troops. The begin to run back, they alert colonel James Hawthorne who is in charge of a cavalry gate in the eighth division. He is alerted to it and he will dispatch one of his regiments under colonel Dewitt Hunter will then approach this column. The goal is that Dewitt Hunter slows them down. He has about 100 men with him and he will move from bloody hell, there is actually a ridge just behind bloody hell that they will take position on. The are trying to slow down thing you lyon. It takes him about an hour at to be able to attack at the press Dewitt Hunters force off of the ridge. Nathaniel lyon is going to continue to move toward bloody hell which is a large plateau with lots of ravines that he sees as a prominent position for his artillery and a line of defense and a good position to further watch his attack. He goes for bloody hell. We will figure out why that name sticks later in the battle. The thing you lyon spots a just to the here north of bloody hell. He is going to send his first infantry regiments along with cotton battery which is the second u. S. Artillery. To forwardd them because it is a very steep ravine. He will send the rest of his column around the bloody hell hopefully to get on top of the actual hell here. He is also going to send one detachment off to the east. Under captain joseph wonder he is in charge of a regular battalion of 300 men. He is also going to take several home guard units area and they are going to cross the creek and their goal is to secure the wire road. The wire road gets them back to springfield so they know they have to control that. The first kansas and first missouri get to a prominent position on bloody hell. The ascii battery hears of that. Battery hears of that. They begin to open fire. Cotton battery is beginning to pull the polaski battery. At this time, place and mcculloch are in a meeting. This is a modern image as i went to the battlefield recently, that is the edward kevin its not the original if a or one that was built by the Edwards Family just not the original. This is were the state guarding him is very at mcculloch will meet with price to figure out their strategy for the next day. At this is a 5 00 in the morning and they dont know, is that they are in an acoustic shadow. You cant hear anything around you. I can attest to this. I was at the edwards property. My dad was just a few hundred feet away and he was shouting to me when i was right there at the spot. I could not hear him at all area and you can imagine what it was like for been mcculloch and Sterling Price. But theyt hear a thing begin to hear reports from various messengers. To give you an idea, this is what Sterling Price will say after his report. I received a message that the enemy were advancing a great force from the direction of springfield. A second messenger came immediately afterwards from general rains to announce the main body was upon him. General mcculloch was with me with these messengers came and left at once for his own headquarters. That explains it pretty well printed Sterling Price then been mcculloch if these reports in. The second messenger that comes, they know this is serious area did the battle has occurred. After this meeting as regimen mcculloch went to his headquarters, his headquarters are on the east side of the creek. Just a plumber is making his move. He is going to cross the creek at the gibson no property. Crossing the creek there and hes going to push self. He has cannon fire coming at him and he sees the alaskan battery firing on bloody hell. Battery firing on bloody hell. At the same time as all this is occurring, mcculloch is back at his headquarters. Plumbers amend, he has about 300 men under his command. Thats over a thousand men. Toy are outnumbered three one. Not a very difficult battle theeen the two but louisiana and arkansas smash into plumber because the corn was at the height of their heads he couldnt see the enemy coming. As this is coming as this is happening, the two boys battery has moved up on what he hell. What he hell. They begin to shell them. Forcing the third louisiana and second arkansas to start scattering. There would be no more fighting on the east side of the creek at that point. Here is a quick visual. This is a modernday photograph of the cornfield at the northern end. I thought i would show you this to give you a visual. We have the regular battalion. This is north here for the self you can see what that would have looked like. That is just before august. This would have shown you what it can look like by this point. Siegel has proposed a double envelopment strategy. Siegel with his second brigade is gorgeous try to attack the southern end of the western army. He does this, he is able to get from springfield to the southern battlefield without being picked up by anyone in the western army. That was an intelligent masterpiece. Detected until his battery started opening up. Siegel is positioned over here on the eastern side of the creek. He positions that are batteries just across the creek here to fire on the southern camps. They are all along the wilson creek and he begins to fire upon them causing them to scattering fleet. He will then move his men across the creek and begin to position what is known as the sharp stubble field. They begin to advance having more andriving away more of the troops and the members of the brigade out. Here is a quick visual of the field. This is about where siegel is moving. This up here would have been the sharp farm. To give you an idea, siegel will start moving through the field into the cornfield of the sharp property. His goal is to secure the wire road. That is a very important line of communication and supply. It is also the whole point of prevent this road is to mcculloch from having any line of retreat. As he is positioned there, mcculloch who is just finished sending over the third louisiana and the second arkansas, but has scattered. They begin to make their way towards these caps. Ben mcculloch would call on the third louisiana again. Just a detachment of third louisiana they were beat of hadley from the cornfield fight. He believed them on the wire road toward siegels position. At this point, siegel has stopped firing his guns. He has completely silenced because he sees troops moving south along the wire road. He thinks those are Nathaniel Lyons troops. He thinks those of the first iowa greyhounds so he halts but until it is too late until he realizes that those are not the iowa greyhounds that is in fact the third louisiana. It is too late. Mcculloch was able to rally about a thousand men in this formation and they easily drive back siegels men. It is a complete routing. Siegel and his second brigade are done. To give you a quick idea of what it was like, a sergeant of the third missouri will take some after the war to reflect on this. He says this. Will driver got eight bullets and lived about an hour. Intortillery horses rushed our columns and we were a big crowd of men, horses, guns and case on all mixed together running to the south. They were done area the entire brigade had been routed. Ofng back toward another and the battlefield, we have a series of multiple attacks on bloody hill. This is from 6 30 until 8 30, lyons is established. He is first going to send out the first candle and first missouri. Those are his first troops he sends out. They are some of his most reliable did they begin to push out and their goal is to open the southern position just south of bloody hill. They want to find out what the strength is like for the state guard. They know the state guard is there its just a matter of where. They begin to get into a skirmish here. While that is happening, the rest of the line will begin to move up. As you can see, he has the infantry and in between the infantry units, he also has artillery such as two boys battery up here, part of cottons battery and another part altogether. Timetate guard at this will also have mcbrides turnion storming trying to the right fight of the federal army off of what he hell it doesnt work area and they are repulsed. To give you an idea, this is right around where the section is. Thats just the one part of the cottons battery on what he hell. The Second Attack begins right around 9 00 and these times i am listing on him on here are relative. Morning, youn the begin the Second Attack. Sterling price will once again try to attack and try to pull off the army of the west right off of bloody hill. About 2800. Has or the firstnsas missouri and the first kansas begins a probe. Nearlyte guard line penetrates the center of the federal line and Living Alliance himself will call of the first iowa to slam up against the southern right flank and he will kansas rally the second to slam into this portion of their line that had almost crumbled. Is bloodyely, this hill what it looks like were the position is. Is callingiel lyons up a second kansas, he had been wounded twice. In the head and the right side. He is discouraged. Andants to rally these men initial this engagement to stillness off. He is able to do it. The second kansas come on my brave boys i will lead you forward. Soon after, he is struck to the heart and he falls off of his horse into the arms of his aid. His last words were london i am going. He dies right there. This is a very romanticized. Mage that was done there is the death marker for Nathaniel Lyon done in 1928. Actually too far forward. He is probably further back on the hill. With Nathaniel Lyon dead, it puts major sam sturgis and command of the army. Just before the third and final attack by the state guard, sam sturgis has a quick they decide if we do not hear from siegel we have to withdraw. Thats the key word, withdraw. For anygis is waiting word from siegel and it has not come. At this point, siegel had been routed. Mcculloch is able to move away from what was going on at the southern end of the battlefield and folks from the northern end consolidating as many of the forces as possible and they slam against the army of the west position on bloody hill. The army of the west is able to hold them back however, they never heard from siegel. With weis convinced need to withdraw and thats what he does. After the guns fall silent, they pull out and they pile out without anybody noticing not even the enemy. The enemy falls back and at that point, they try it again and when they get to the top of bloody hill nobody is there. Unfortunately, they lost Nathaniel Lyons body there on bloody hill so his body was in the southerners hands. This point, sam sturgis has pushed back or has withdrawn back to springfield. Ultimately, there are 2500 casualties around 17 of the armies combined had casualties. The army of the west had a staggering 24 loss. Many of the wounded are being treated at springfield and those on the battlefield are taken by the southerners and the federals to be evacuated from the battlefield gets it back up to st. Louis for further treatment. Many of them are buried at Jefferson Barracks or later at Springfield National cemetery. Is this battle forgotten . Why do we need to remember it . Successful most Union General in 1861. Not over a course of one year but he is the most successful in terms of what he is able to accomplish area its going to force the lincoln and davis administrations to send more troops to missouri and arkansas in response to this battle. Fremont will declare martial law throughout the states including his infamous emancipation order that was rejected by lincoln. To State Governments would be in control of the state of missouri including a legislature that passes the ordinance of secession in late october and early november of 1861. Then there is a union discover meant that is put in at Jefferson City. Secure many of the major lines of communication that will secure lines for the union. Wilsons creek really is a stage setter rather than a definitive battle that when the fight for missouri. To keep in mind also, the southerners will never regain the Initiative Like they had at Wilsons Creek and when they advance north to lexington and took the fortification there at lexington. This would be a very difficult rest of the four years for them. Up, thisre i finish last quote i would like to leave is anth from thomas sneed aide to governor jackson and the chief of staff of Major GeneralSterling Price he says this about lyon. Lyon had not died in vain. Whichh him the rebellion blair had organized and to which he had himself given force and strength had succeeded at last. By wisely planning, by boldly doing, and by bravely dying he had won the fight for missouri. Thank you. [applause] we have time for one or two questions. Is kevin chose to introduce his wife which was a landmine waiting to happen. Any questions . One of the questions i have for to is Wilsons Creek seems be one of those battles that a lot of people have heard of. But itnot be forgotten is a battle we dont know a lot about. You explainhow do that . Thats a great question and its like why do i consider Wilsons Creek to be forgotten . Me isorgotten means to that it is a misunderstood battle. When we think about missouri in the civil war we think about Wilsons Creek and guerrilla warfare. The thing i wanted share with you tonight is how many times do think of wilsons craig lang think of the civil war . We think about that all the time . I would say people remember gettysburg. Wilsons creek will set the stage and people dont necessarily always realize that. Its not hot in the history books. I was flipping through a textbook for my brother and i saw that his history textbook mentioned manassas but there is no mention of Wilsons Creek. 1861 an essential part of and the transmississippi west. Coming up. Sharing with you this story is so important because its another one of the battles that people ought to remember even more than what they do and that you understand more of the context behind it and what it resulted in. Thank you. [applause] learn more about the people and events that shaped the civil war and reconstruction every p. M. On at 6 00 American History tv on cspan3. For 40 years, cspan has been providing america unfiltered coverage of congress, the white court, and Public Policy events from washington, d. C. And around the country so you can make up your own mind created by cable in 1979. Cspan is brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. The civil war, amy taylor talks about her book embattled freedom. Journey through the civil wars slave refugee camp. This was part of the Gettysburg College civil war institutes annual conference. Good morning, everyone. You all can take a seat please. I am peter carmichael. I am a member of the History Department here at Gettysburg College. I am also the director of the civil war institute, and its my pleasure to start off this saturday morning with amy mauro taylor. Amy is an associate professor at the university of kentucky. She did her undergraduate training at duke university, her graduate training at uva, and as i mentioned, she is at kentucky. She only goes to schools where