Transcripts For CSPAN3 Hearing On College Athlete Compensation 20240713

Have the chairman with us this morning, and i expect senator blumenthal to join us momentarily. As chairman of this subcommittee with jurisdiction over amateur athletics i welcome all of you to todays hearing entitled name, image, likeness, the state of intercollegiate compensation. The expectation or hope is that we might limit ourselves to that kuip of conversation but i have no control over my colleagues or what the witnesses may say that may take us broader in scope. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses. Im appreciative of all of them being here but especially the chancellor of my alma mater the university of kansas, the president of the collegiate Athletic Association and two former student athletes. In my home state we have a rich history of College Athletics. The womens soccer team won their first title last year. In my hometown of Manhattan College football at kansas staet university and a legacy continued by the current coach and Athletic Director gene taylor and who can forget the run at the ncaa in 2013. In addition to kansas city in addition, kansas city was the headquarters for the ncaa before moving to indianapolis. Senator young is not here but i would remind the ncaa we would welcome them back to kansas city at any time. While division i schools often come to mind in my view we cannot lose sight over the 1,000 colleges and universities across three divisions included in the ncaa. In kansas we have Impressive Division ii at pitt state who won four dii titles in 2011 and newman and washburn. I hope that in this conversation that those schools and their athletes are not forgotten. There are nearly 500,000 student athletes that compete in 24 different sports. The ncaas considerable financial restrictions tied to eligibility has gained heated debate in recent years. How student athletes are restricted from profiting from their name, image or likeness to supplement scholarships and related benefits they receive. These debates have resulted in state legislatures taking their own actions. In california the fair pay to play act was signed into law last september and will prohibit california universities from preventing them using their name and likeness. Coming into effect in 2023 the law will allow student athletes to hire agents and other representation. Following suit legislation has been introduced in over 20 other states with more expected to follow raising the concerns of organizations and to function within a system of differing state laws. The ncaa began to take steps to address the debate over profiting from their name, image and likeness to potential modification that is allow a clear demarcation between professional and amateur athletics and still aligned with the general student body. The working group is expected to issue recommendations with new rules implemented in 2021. Understanding how state and name, image and likeness would affect the athletic system is critical in shaping congressefforts on this issue. Some of the complexities are third party agents, current definition of amateurism and allowable incentives. As we will hear today College Athletes excuse me, College Athletics teaches young men and women many values and skills but the most important aspect is that they are first a student athlete athlete. They have higher Graduation Rates than nonathletes which is significant because less than 2 go on to become professional athletes. It is important that actions by congress do not hurt student athletes. Joining us today to provide different perspectives is the commissioner of the big 12 conference, dr. Mark emerit, president of the Athletic Association, dr. Douglas jerrod, chancellor of the university of kansas, the executive director of the Players Association and former ucla student athlete and mr. Spencer chair of the ncaa Student Athlete Advisory Committee and former university of new mexico track student athlete. Were honored to be joined by football student athlete and representing the 16th district of ohio, anthony gonzalez. The advocacy for this issue is highly valued by the subcommittee. I thank him for his willingness to join us today and present an Opening Statement. With the conclusion of my Opening Statement i turn to the Ranking Member senator blumenthal for his. Thank you so much, chairman moran. I want to express my special appreciation to you and to chairman wicker who is with us as well as to Ranking Member cantwell for addressing an issue that i think will grow in importance already as preoccupied the minds and hearts of many who are interested in College Athletics and the future of the great individuals who participate in College Sports and we are now holding the senates first ever hearing on compensating College Athletes. Thanks for advancing a number of very promising ideas which i hope we will take into account in our work. We have a highly significant opportunity today to better understand how we can protect College Athletes while promoting intercollegiate sports. Our College Athletes fuel the 14 billion industry that literally makes money for countless companies and agents and almost nothing for the athletes themselves. They should receive equitable compensation for their hard work and the value that they create. College athletes are being taken advantage of by a Financial Model allowing to profit off athletesnames, images and likenesses without allowing those athletes to receive any compensation in return. College athletes risk their health and safety to play these sports. In return their compensation is capped at the cost of attending their college or university. Athletes are not even guaranteed to have costs for sports related injuries be covered by their schools and can have their scholarships revoked in the event of a college and career ending injury. The system is deeply unfair, repugnant to the very ideals the colleges so actively espouse and inherently flawed as an economic matter and marred with inconsistencies. Only these students are able to monetize their skill by working such as music students who teach budding musicians or math majors who Tutor High School students, College Athletes receive no renumeration, no compensation, no financial recognition at all. That has to change. We are here to hear from some of the experts and to begin this consideration the kinds of egregious unfairness are multiple. We know well College Coaches are paid multimillion dollar salaries outpacing the pay of many Corporate Executives and almost all the teachers, many of the College Coaches rank as the highest paid Public Employee in 41 out of 50 states. When universities are not turning their coaches into millionaires they pump millions into lavish new athletic facilities. In fact, tens of millions of dollars that can cost upwards of 130 million. In short, everyone is profiting off the fame, image, likeness and accomplishments of College Athletes except for the athletes themselves and its during a period when their prowess and, in effect, earning capacity may be at one of its heights. Amateurism cannot be a means to monopolize College Athleticism for lucrative media deals. I hope that states like the california fair pay to play act will be part of our consideration consideration. Among other things these laws provide new opportunities for women athletes who have less athletes who have less professional sports options after college than men. And i look forward to continues this work because we have a responsibility especially in the absence of leadership elsewhere. But i hope there will be leadership. I hope the ncaa will take advantage of the real opportunity to do right by hundreds of thousands of athletes across the country whose talents generate billions and im glad that the ncaa is taking necessary steps to update its policies and i look forward to hearing as to new rules to compensate athletes for their name, image and likeness. Fundamental fairness is at stake here. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. You and i i look forward to working with you on this and we have a habit of responding to california legislation. I think we can do it one more time. Or maybe in both instances. I recognize senator wicker. He and his staff have been instrumental and supportive of our efforts to bringing this hearing to fruition this morning. Well, thank you very much, chairman moran and Ranking Member blue menmenthal. I think we see by the size of the crowd and the attention this hearing is receiving that were on to something very important and very timely. I dont know how i feel about this issue, purchasemr. Chairman. I dont know where its going to lead. I do not disagree with anything that the chair or senator blumenthal have said during their Opening Statements. Weve got a situation where states are moving forward and we need to address the issue. Im as proud of my States History of Intercollegiate Athletics as senator moran is and pointed out in his Opening Statement. And if senator blumenthal had taken the time to do so, he could have pointed to great accomplishments in connecticut, also. Many College Athletes come from middle class families, as i did, who could scrape together the funds and pay for a College Education on their own if they had to. But for many collegiate athletes, male and female, in football, basketball, or some of the other sports that are not quite so popular, its the first opportunity for that family to get out of poverty, to go to college. To grab a rung on the ladder of economic success, and certainly the legislation in california and the legislation being proposed elsewhere recognizes that theres been a disparity there that ought to be addressed. I agree it ought to be address the. Name, image and likeness perhaps is the answer. I wonder, senator blumenthal, if it is the answer in all cad gories of intercategories of intercollegiate sports and with the help of the ncaa and the help of states to help us figure out the fairest way to make sure that no one is left out and that the athletes that do contribute to this 14 billion per year economy are given their fair share in bringing this largesse to our universities. I agree with you, mr. Chairman, also, we could get into other issues. I had another hearing just a few days ago dealing with doping, and we learned theres a problem with athletics with doping. Im going to stay away from that today. I hope that members up and down the dias will heed your admonition that we have a specific topic to talk about today. I dont know where this is going to lead but i believe its an important step and the chair and the Ranking Member are due kudos kudos. I yield back. Thank you for your leadership and your hearing last week. Representative anthony gonzalez, a member of the house of representatives from ohio with a history regarding being a student athlete. Thank you. Chairman wicker, Ranking Member blumenthal and members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to speak on this timely topic. I know firsthand the impact College Sports has on our students, athletes and communities across the country. For me my time playing for ohio state shaped my life and appreciation for the lessons i learned on and off the field grows every day. College athletics has a way of doing that. College sports provided the best and only opportunity to attend college and earn a degree. That said College Sports has morphed into an enterprise that few could have imagined when the ncaa first formed in 1906. College athletics generated more than 10 billion in revenue in 2018. Student athletes are still barred from capitalizing off their name, image and likeness. This is a regulation unique to student athletes on college campuses. An Award Winning scholarship chemist may accept any awards but the fastest runner on the track team cannot. The majority of student athletes are facing the same intense financial pressures including student loan debt. Outside of the high revenue sports the majority do not receive full tuition scholarships. Division iii receive no athletic scholarships at all. What would empower the athletes to make a few extra dollars to alleviate financial pressure. It is this disparity that spurred the passage of the fair pay to play act. While i agree with the idea in principle, californias law fails to capture the nuance to get this right. An approach would throw the athletic system into chaos, it would undermine competition of schools from different states. As it stands ucla and arizona state, pac 12 members, are on unequal footing because of the California Law. Students now have an added outside incentive to pick ucla, the ability to benefit. A patchwork of state laws to become the norm. The California Law created an anything goes system that fails to understand the realities of the hyper competitive recruiting process. Guardrails are crucial to protecting the integrity of the game and student athletes from overzealous boosters who may want to buy their way to the next national championship. The California Law did get one thing right t. Forced the discussion into the National Conversation and compelled the universities and conferences to confront the reality headon. Ive talked to student athletes, the ncaa and administrators. Despite uncertainty on the right past poured there is consensus something must be done. Over 20 additional states are in the process of passing different nil laws. The question is not should they be able to profit off nil. That question has been answered. The question before us today is how to prevent state by state chaos and protect the system beloved across the nation . First, the system must permit to capitalize on rights whether or not they participate in football or pitch for the softball team. Nil will benefit players but athletes who want to earn a little money to pay off Student Loans or take their significant other on a date. They must penalize those who seek to take advantage by expanding upon existing protections we can deter bad actors and promote transparency so universities are aware of the nil contracts their students are ending into. Third, any legislation must also guarantee student athletes are still considered students not employees of an institution. Important protections would be completely eradicated. If a student athlete can be hired, he or she can be fired. From personal experience i can tell you that Incoming Freshman recruits do not live up to expectations. Firing these students instead of investing in their development would reduce countless opportunities, in many cases the only opportunity. The train has left the station on nil. It is no longer a question of if but when and how. Congress must act to preserve the collegiate sports system we know and love. For those reasons i have begun to draft federal legislation in the house to allow student athletes to profit from their nil and create one national standard. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses on this issue and working with my colleagues in the senate to find a bipartisan solution to the challenge before us today. Thank you for the opportunity to provide a statement. Representative, thank you very much for your statement. We appreciate your interest in this topic, and you bring a particular expertise both on the field and now in congress. We look forward to getting this ride. Thank you. Well now call the panel of witnesses to the table. The commissioner of big 12 conference, dr. Mark emert, collegiate Athletic Associationassociation, the executive director of National College Players Association, and mr. Spencer, former chair Student Athletic Advisory Committee National Collegiate Athletic Association. Welcome to all of you. Well begin when ready. Good morning. Chairman moran, Ranking Member blumenthal, chairman wicker, distinguished members of the subcommittee, on behalf of the big 12 conference and its members i thank you for holding this hearing and providing me with this opportunity to testify. I believe in the extraordinary opportunities our colleges, universities provide to our nation and the world. I also believe in the american model as a cocurricular activity on our campuses. I have worked in athletics for more than 40 years because i believe that the fundamental purpose is to help 18yearold adolescents become 22yearold adults and in the process to provide an opportunity for an outstanding athletic experience and first rate education. I left my last position at Stanford University largely because i believed there was much good and right about Intercollegiate Athletics and that i could perhaps better be part of affecting change from a commissioners position. I have been afforded the opportunity to participate in just such a change. Along with my commissioner colleagues and our members we work to provide student athletes with the full cost of attendance in addition to tuition, fees, room, board and books. This provided trips for fun home, entertainment and incidental Living Expenses in amounts ranging between 3,000 and 6,000 per student per year. We have changed rules so former participants can return to school on scholarship to complete their degrees and configured legislative changes to allow unlimited meals and snacks. Transitional health care so that medical expenses for injuries that linger on until after graduation or a departure from school can be reimbursed, pell grant benefits you have to 6,800 for those qualifying. The covenant is far superior to the benefits package available just five years ago. We have made con stability progress since the prerogatives of the autonomy structure. When all of the recent legislative amendments with the facilities, medical services, academic support, travel opportunities and high level coaching and mentorship, the quality of the student athlete in division i is quite high. Ive spent a great deal of time working with colleagues and advocates considering what an open nil pay for play environment might look like. I find myself supportive of modernization but daunted of the dark shadow between the ideas and the reality. The changes advocated in many of the date legislative proposals will benefit a small percentage of the 450,000 in our country and will render a much larger. For decades we have funded broadbased sports programs including our nations title 9 initiatives on the revenue derived from a few sports. This is defensible and worthy of protection because of the multitude of opportunities it creates. Student athletes in a wide array of sports work hard in search of excellence. The efforts in football or basketball or baseball. The participants in highprofile sports simply enjoy the benefits that accrue to those in sports adored by the public and coveted by the television networks. The current model of athletics funding work because it meets the objectives of a full array of equitable opportunities for its students. Plenty of work to be accomplished. The potential for harm is present and changes some assert as inalienable rights to damage the collegiate model. This model is and has been the envy of the world. College sports is not a vocation and the participants are not employees. Conversely for more than 98 of the College Athletes population the four years of College Sports participation is the last they will enjoy in organized high level competition. Their active sports careers will be over but the education they earn, the camaraderie they enjoyed and the experiences they treasured will pay dividends for many years to come. I thank you for this opportunity to testify, and i refer you to the written version of my comments which go into greater depth on the pertinent issues of this testimony. Thank you for your testimony. Chairman moran and Ranking Member blumenthal and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to appear before you today. For almost ten years ive had the privilege of serving as president of the ncaa. Were an Organization Led by colleges and universities of america and dedicated to the wellbeing and success of student athletes on the field, in the classroom and in life. College sports provides reward rewarding experience. But while a Record Number of students play College Sports today and more fans than ever enjoy watching them, there are concerns expressed about the fundamental fairness of our system. We share those concerns. We agree student athletes concerns. We agree that student athletes should be allowed to benefit from their name, image, and likeness. Commonly, known as nil. And we are in the process of identifying appropriate ways to do so. After several months of analysis by a working group of student athletes, president s, commissioners, Athletic Directors, and faculty members, in october, our board of governors directed each of the ncaas three divisions to begin, immediately, to consider how to modify the rules to permit student athletes to benefit financially from the use of their name, image, and likeness. Consistent with the values of Intercollegiate Athletics. Like congress, our process is thoughtful and deliberate. And our member schools plan to make changes no later than january of 2021. Unfortunately, constant litigation, litigation threats, and recent state legislative efforts to regulate aspects of College Sports, have complicated these efforts. These actions are doubtlessly the product of good intentions. But proper but without proper guardrails and structure, some nil proposals threaten to undermine the core values of College Sports by allowing payments for nil to serve as pay for play and potentially turning College Athletes into employees. Also, as many pointed out, a patchwork of different laws from various states will create an uneven and unfair Playing Field for our schools and student athletes. We simply dont believe our schools can effectively support students and host Fair National competition if College Athletics is pulled in various directions by state ledgegislatures. Its critical that the administration of College Sports be undertaken by the ncaa at a national level. We believe that the modernization efforts currently underway with respect to nil will address the concerns about fairness. But we need to make sure that College Sports operate consistent with two principles that are not always aligned. On the one hand, we want to allow student athletes to benefit from their nil, like all College Athletes. On the other hand, we want to preserve the unique character and quality of College Sports that serves student athletes so well. And, senators, we may need your help to achieve those goals. We have a history of making continual improvements to benefit College Athletes. Our member schools now award nearly 3. 5 billion in athletic scholarships each year. And more students are earning degrees than ever before. Including many whose financial circumstances would have otherwise prevented them from attending college. The past decade has seen enormous enhancements in the support for student athletes including in healthcare, nutritional programs, academic assistance, prevention of sexual violence, and covering the cost of attending school entirely. Today, there are nearly a half a million ncaa athletes competing in 24 sports, three divisions, and on 19,000 different teams. Regardless of their sport, their gender, their division, regardless of whether their school is big or small, rural or urban, public or private, we seek to support all students and help them be successful. We know were not perfect. We know that the world is constantly changing and we want to change accordingly. Im confident that there is a path forward on this issue of nil. Ni nil that preserves what we love about College Sports while creating even greater opportunities for our students. Thats what we are seeking and thats what brings us here today, mr. Chairman. Thank you again and i look forward to your questions. Thank you, dr. Emmert. Now, dr. Jirad. Thank you for the opportunity to be here today. My name is doug and i am the chancellor at the university of kansas. The university of kansas is a leading Public Research institution and a member of the association of american universities. Were also the proud sponsor of a robust Ncaa Division i Athletics Program competing at the highest level of Intercollegiate Athletics. Senator moran, sir, id like to begin this morning by thanking you for your outreach. Not just to university of kansas and to our student athletes but also to the big 12 conference, to the ncaa, and really all the constituents who care deeply about the model of collegiate athletics. We have repeatedly stated in our conversations that we are in a Factfinding Mission here to try and understand better how name, image, and likeness may impact collegiate athletics. And honestly, we, too, are in that factfinding mode. We join you and your colleagues on the subcommittee, as well as the house of representatives to seek a working solution to challenge by the patchwork of recently enacted and pending state legislation of varying degrees. And its clear to me that the imperative of national consistency, fairness, and equity, requires a federal solution. Like all division i universities, we compete in 50 states. And, really, only a federal approach that creates a level Playing Field for competing athletes and universities makes sense. Ku acknowledges that it is a new day in College Athletic and if there is an opportunity for students to earn, we should support them that will protect them and maintain integrity of the game. Theres no doubt there is a complicated policy matter. And that none of us has the happens at the moment, which is why its important were having these discussions. But no matter what solutions we pursue, i think there are two ironclad principles that should form us every step of the way. First, we must consider to prioritize what is best. Secondly, we must preserve and protect the collegiate athletic model. So as this process moves forward, we must not forget that more than 98 of student athletes do not turn professional in their sport after they graduate or have significant opportunity to earn income from name, image, and likeness. Yet, they benefit greatly from the education, resources, and the development they have access to as student athletes. So we must be cautious not to risk losing what is so valuable for the 98 while addressing the specific needs for those blessed to take their athletic talents to the professional level. Additionally, we must preserve access for firstgeneration students and underrepresented minorities to an education through sports. And continue to enhance gender equity in compliance with title ix. The bottom line is there are ways to allow student athletes to benefit from name, image, and likeness while maintaining the benefits of the collegiate athletic model. Additionally, these actions that we contemplate today on name, image, and likeness have the potential to transcend athletics and really impact every aspect of the University Mission from education and service to research. For better or worse, the Athletics Department at a University Like ku is inextricably linked to the entire University Model and everything that we do. For example, athletics is important in student recruitment. Particularly, for a midwestern University Like ours. It is highly dependent on out of state student enrollment. Athletics is crucial to our alumni and donors, whose support is essential to our most important academic missions and research initiateives. By enrolling students from diverse backgrounds. As a university chancellor, one of my responsibilities is to support more opportunities for our students while they are enrolled at our university. Whether thats an internship, opportunity to do research in a company, or study abroad. Most certainly, today, i want to support this new opportunity for student athletes who have the potential to earn money while competing at our institution to do so. Right now, students, student athletes, parents, alumni, and supporters of our universities are counting on us to do this fairly and correctly. Forming a comprehensive National Plan for name, image, and likeness is a challenge and it will take some time to implement. But together, we can do this together. So let us partner with the universities, congress, our governing association, our conferences and all our Key Stakeholders to create a solution that ensures the best interest of our student athletes thats front and center while also preserving the collegiate model to the benefit of all of our student athletes. Thank you. Dr. Girod, thank you very much. Mr. Huma, welcome. Thank you. Good morning. Im a former ucla Football Player and executive director of the ncpa. Comprised of over 20,000 current and former College Athletes nationwide. First, i would like to thank chairman wicker. College sports is a 14 billion per year commercial industry. Where multibillion dollar tv revenues fuel multimillion dollar salaries for coaches, administrators, and commissioners. The ncaas basketball tournament alone generates under armour is paying 280 million to require ucla players to serve as walking bill boards to advertise its apparel. Meanwhile, the ncaa denies players thirdparty compensation claiming it is to protect players from forces of commercialization. Many of the ncpa is a cosponsor of a fair pay to play act and currently an estimated 28 states that are pursuing similar legislation. In short, a wave of bipartisan action is sweeping across this nation in response to longstanding, unjust ncaa rules that deny College Athletes Economic Freedoms afforded to other students and americans. As part of my written testimony today, i submitted an updated white paper on this issue that was published last friday and i will cover some of the key advocacy positions included in that document. First, federal legislation is not necessary for positive reform in this contrary butarea. For instance, congress could prevent thirdparty compensation offers used as inducements to High School Recruits and college transfers to attend a particular college. It could also ensure that colleges themselves dont coordinate thirdparty athlete compensation. Similar to some of the state guard guardrails, they should be enacted directly through law and not through any ncaa antitrust exemption. If congress acts, it should also uphold the freedom for independent representation, which 28 states are currently pursuing. Congress should not grant the power to certify athletes and other representation because this representation would also be expected to represent players in disputes with the ncaa in colleges. Also, current ncaa rules are discriminatory as they only allow elite mens basketball players the ability to secure agents, while denying the same right to all female athletes. States are capability of setting standards and many have adopted such standards into law. Additionally, colleges and conferences should not be able to represent players in name, image, and likeness compensation agreement. That is, it will be asking congress to do. The ncaa con depressesgresses and colleges are already taking advantage of players in this area selling players rights and refusing to give them any compensation for it. Again, some guardrails can be helpful. But there are serious concerns about the potential for even wellintentioned guardrails to serve as hammers. That can harm Economic Freedoms being unlocked by the states. Some have proposed banning thirdparty compensation agreements. This would mean players couldnt get a deal with nike if nike sponsored their college. They couldnt get a deal with countless companies that contract with their colleges. If a fan happens to be alumni or donor, pays admission to a paid autograph signing, the fan, player, and college could be in violation of federal law and be subject to punishments. Yet, these are precisely the opportunities states are seeking to open up to College Athletes. States are realizing proposals that would prohibit or cap opportunity largely because competitive equity does not exist under current ncaa rules. In the antitrust lawsuit, the federal courts came to this exact conclusion in their rulings. Colleges with most revenues and wealthiest boosters, hire the best coaches and build the best facilities. And in turn, they get the best recruits. They win the most games. And score the richest tv deals, allowing them to continue their dominance. Importantly, if ncaa sports was truly committed to pursuing competitive equity and recruiting and winning, they would ban booster payments to athletic programs and teams would share tv revenue equally like they do in other multibillion dollar sports leagues. College athletes shouldnt be forced to sacrifice their Economic Freedom and rights. While doing nothing about huge disparities in athletic revenues. Finally, payments would be from third parties, not colleges. If congress does act, it should advance College Athlete freedoms being pursued by the states, not roll them back. Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Mr. Spencer. Chairman wicker, chairman moran, and Ranking Member blumenthal, thank you for inviting me to speak on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of men and women who represent the current, former, and future student athletes. Some of whom are sitting behind me today. My name is kendall spencer. As a division i track and field student athlete at the university of new mexico, i have won National Championships, secured multiple allamerican honors, both academically and athletically, and represented my country abroad and international competition. Today, my advocacy on behalf of student athletes starts with the Student Athlete Advisory Committee. In this capacity, i led my my group to to numerous policy decisions that were set to benefit the student athlete welfare that eventually led to my appointment as the First Student athlete to serve on the ncaas board of directors. Today, i am a thirdyear law student at Georgetown University where i am a technology, law, and policy scholar. Focusing on privacy, election security, and the role that emerging technologies play in shaping this current digital economy. I continue to train competitively while in law school with my eyes firmly set on making the 2020 olympic team. In this testimony, i will discuss the name, image, and likeness, through the lens of todays modern student athlete. Giving strict emphasis to the technological framework that we live in today. And as many of you know, nil has the right to publicity, which as a result of our federalist system, is determined by the extent of its recognition at the state level. Consequently, we are left with a patchwork of state laws designed to regulate nil. But members of the committee, let me illustrate for you what this actually looks like. It looks like a 17yearold High School Student athlete choosing between two institutions not because of the Educational Value but rather because of which state has the fewest restrictions on the financial benefit they can gain from their nil. If within Intercollegiate Athletics, we value education, this is not something that we should allow to happen so freely. Now, todays discussion is not for me to comment on interstate commerce or to describe the burden it places on institutions that conduct business throughout the country but i can illustrate the glaring danger looming in the shadows for student athletes. In all these conversations, we must understand that todays student athlete lives in this innovation economy driven by social Media Influencers and emerging technology platforms. A student athletes nil, however, is inextricably tethered to technology. And this makes the value and protection of this right incredibly complex. The social media landscape that all student athletes today live in is grossly underregulated, leaving many of the users without protection when their nil is misappropriated. Additionally, a student athlete will have to monitor the use of his or her potential misappropriation and ensure that he or she is compliant with the state laws that may or may not recognize these rights. The assumption that student athletes, many of whom already spend upwards of 60 hours a week on athletically related activities, will have the time to monitor the use of their nil in order to protect their profit is absurd. The notion of expecting student athletes to potentially hire an agent to manage their brand on top of, perhaps, an attorney to ensure compliance with this patchwork of state laws is unreasonable. This expectation that Community Members will continue to be able to support student athletes at such a high level without fear of violating a student athletes nil agreement is absurd. Members of the committee, this isnt just a matter of protecting the Student Athlete Experience. This is about maintaining the welfare of students who happen to be athletes. So what is the Student Athlete Experience . Its the flashcards we take into the ice bath. Its the textbooks that we take with us on long roadtrips to games. Its the term papers that my teammates reviewed for me when we were in the hotel rooms. It is in this moment that we see the distinction between College Sports and the professional leagues. This is the moment that we see the value in protecting the Student Athlete Experience and more importantly, the welfare of all student athletes. Here, we recognize the role of education. Members of the committee, when it comes to protecting the welfare and the success of student athletes, its not enough to get it done. We have to get it right. And this means allowing the membership and the institutions that help guide us to our educational goals the appropriate time to be able to design a structure where this current innovation economy can fit into. So in conclusion, i would implore each of you to consider the impact this would have on the incredible value of the Student Athlete Experience, what it means for Intercollegiate Athletics, and more importantly, the world that student athletes live in today. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Spencer. Let me start the round of questioning with a directed question at dr. Emmert. Perhaps to set the stage of where the ncaa is and what this committee and Congress Might envision for its role. In october of 2019, the ncaa board of governors voted unanimously to permit student athletes the opportunity to benefit from their use of name, image, and likeness in a, quote, manner consistent with the collegiate model, unquote. While the details of ncaas policies will not be established until january of21, after additional feedback from its members, are you able to describe the general principles that the ncaa and its members seek to preserve as they establish rules for name, image, and likeness, compensation from third parties to student athletes . How do you foresee the ncaas internal input seeking and policymaking timeline aligning with the actions now taking place in states. As has been acknowledged, states have clearly made known their interest to be active in this matter. Is there concern that the ncaas deliberation process may take too long to keep up with the expected rate of states legislating on this issue . Thank you for the question, senator. I think the the first point that needs to be made is to recognize the rules of the ncaa are made by the schools themselves, coming together, through a a a legislative process that is not that dissimilar from a congressional process. The members meet on a quarterly basis, on a multiday period of time. They they have a regular legislative cycle and they are in the midst of that cycle right now. The working groups that have been established by the board of governors, representing students and coaches and Athletic Directors and faculty members, is is meeting as we speak. They will be reporting back in april to the board of governors. With the expectation that full legislation will be drafted and then crafted and then passed to come into effect at january of 2021 at our National Convention of that year. Throughout that process, they have been working to try to winnow down the general ideas around what is and is not permissible, what could or could not be consistent with Intercollegiate Athletics and that is a work in progress and well know a lot more about that as they bring out their findings if april. Does the ncaa have other powers, opportunities, to to deal with this outside that deliberation process that is going to take the period of time that you just outlined . Let me suggest to you that a member of congress complaining about the slowness of the process is somewhat hypocritical. Well, the process the process can be accelerated, should any of the three divisions we do all these decisions through our three divisional structures decide to do so. And i, and the president s who lead the association, have been working very hard to try and get them to move this along as quickly as possible. As we have heard from the presenters, it is a complex topic. The answers are cut and dried. But i believe that the members, the schools themselves, are working on this as aggressively as they can under the under the current circumstances. There there certainly is a possibility that some state legislators could pass legislation that could go into effect over the course of this summer. Many states have been modifying their proposals to have them slow down on the implementation date. We were pleased to see that. And we hope the states will indeed provide, as california did, will provide the association with some time to modify their rules before their state laws are triggered. Mr. Huma in particular addressed this question but i would ask the rest of you, what role for congress exists to legislate in this issue . I think dr. Emmert indicated there may be a role for congress. What do you each envision as a request of us . Id i believe, at this point, our request would be some assistance on creating a time window in within which we can complete our work. I serve on the task force thats been working on this topic. And we continue to make progress. I think we have a better vision of of what the guardrails that have been mentioned look like. We have some near implementation dates that havor dates that are problematic. Some time set aside that would allow us opportunity to work would be altogether appropriate. And then as we seek to shape the future of Intercollegiate Athletics, we ask your consideration and and and indulgence in in allowing institutions to act in concert, sadly, acting in concert is characterized as collusion by the plaintiffs bar. But we we feel like institutions acting together is the right way to make rules. Its the right way to prepare the environment for student athletes. And we we ask that some consideration down the road would be given to us as to whether or not our organization can continue to function at the highest possible level, which is what we all seek. Others want to add or subtract from mr. Bowlsbys comments . I would like to just reiterate that, basically, what commissioner bowlsby is describing would be some kind of antitrust exemption, which we oppose. And if you look at the history of antitrust challenges to the ncaa, each of those challenges brought progress that improved the industry, improved the lives of College Athletes. Starting with with the ncaa used to have monopoly on tv money. And now, today, because oklahoma stood up and challenged that, you can see the industry has benefitted very mightily, not through not just revenues but also through consumers being able to watch tv, watch their favorite teams, you know, virtually every single week, perform. The other benefits that have come from that are the elimination these are antitrust challenges against the ncaa. The elimination on the ncaas ban on summer workout medical expenses. There used to be a ban. There used to be a cap on the cost of attendance. The price tag of the school. A full scholarship fell below that by several thousands of dollars. The obannon case was part of the result, now today, colleges can provide the full cost of attendance. There is a current case, austin versus ncaa is another area as well that has unlocked educational opportunities, as well. The u. S. Doj, which we help support in investigation to the oneyear cap on scholarships. There used to be four until the70s when the coaches kind of pressured them to turn it around. Now, College Athletes can have multiyear scholarships. So, again, i reiterate, congress, if any of these issues require guardrails from congress, it should be enacted directly. Not through an antitrust exemption. The ncaas been operating as if they had an kpechlkzexemption and we have seen what theyve done. Name, image, and likeness wouldnt even be on the take. States wouldnt be able to bring this issue to light. So there is a lot of problems with that. Thank you. Mr. Spencer. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I would ask this group to consider the current way student athletes live in today. I think the the world that student athletes lived in when the ncaa was formed is entirely different than how student athletes interact with each other now. I would ask this group to continue the current Regulatory Framework that we exist in. And, more importantly, all student athletes, not just the 2 that some of us might see during march madness or during the bowl season, and the role that our education plays in shaping that experience and how ni nil fits into that equation more broadly. Thank you. Senator bloomenumenthal. Thanks, mr. Chairman. I want to begin by saying that i mean no disrespect to anyone. But i think mr. Spencer has really made a critical point here. A lot of what i hear from the ncaa and coaches and College Officials evokes the fantasy of College Sports as it existed 50 years ago. When i was a Supreme Court law clerk, i once visited with byron white, who played football in an era when helmets were made of leather. I think a lot of the rhetoric and images that we hear about College Sports are as antiquated as leather helmets. And that makes me angry. Because i think that the present state of College Sports is exploitive. And, you know, as i listen to the handwringing about states creating a patchwork of different laws, it is coming. And the reason is that intercollegiate programs earned a total revenue of 14 billion, rivaling the National Football leagues 16 billion. And the ncaa, by the way, grossed a billion dollars. So the states are going to fill this gap. And frankly, im going to encourage them to fill it because it will provide an additional incentive for the ncaa to move more quickly. January 2021 is simply too late. The ncaa is late to this game. So let me ask you, mr. Emmert, what can you do to speed and make more effective the ncaas changes and initiatives so that we simply do not wait until sometime in the distant future and we can avoid the patchwork of different laws that, rightfully, will create unfair Playing Fields. For different colleges and universities, as the chancellor of the university of kansas has pointed out, quite correctly. Senator, first of all, i happen to completely agree with you that that many of the approaches to Intercollegiate Athletics are, in fact, embedded in history or sometimes even grossly inaccurate notions of what the real environment is. And im delighted that mr. Spencer is here providing the the current balance on on the life of student athletes. I can assure you and the members of this subcommittee that i will do everything in my power to encourage the schools themselves in their in their decisionmaking processes to accelerate those discussions and the decisionmaking as quickly as they can. They are working very hard to make sure that they have opportunities to consult with students themselves. With the various levels of the association across its three divisions. With all of the various programs. To make sure they actually do understand the realities on the ground to make sure that they dont create unintentional consequences from any of the rules that they modify and change. Well, let me let me just and i apologize for interrupting but my time is limited. Certainly. Would you agree that the present system of compensation is unfair and outdated . I certainly agree that the nil model thats in place needs to be modified and and is appropriate for change. Radically modified. Correct. Does everyone on the panel agree with that point . Please, raise your hands if you agree. The record should reflect that all of the Witnesses Today have agreed that radical modification is in order. Let me ask you, mr. Spencer, what kinds of nil compensation do you think, as a future lawyer, should be provided . Thank you, senator blumenthal for the question. I think this is an incredibly complex issue. And i think part of the problem with creating a structure around this is the definitions around name, image, and likeness are constantly evolving. I i really appreciate you acknowledging my comment earlier about how the world that student athletes, today, live in is entirely different. But i do want to highlight that a key aspect of that statement is that this is also a world that society, as a whole, is still trying to get a grasp of. I think we see that in this rush to create regulations around technology. Whereas, when we look at this patchwork of state laws that are trying to create a boundary around this, the way that i use social media and i use my likeness is on the internet. And the internet doesnt have these boundaries. So thats part of what makes it a little bit difficult. And i think thats something we will be taking back to our student athletes. Again, some of them are right behind me now. And we want to look at that a little bit closely. And would you agree i would welcome mr. Humas comments, as well. One of the areas that i think the public finds most dismaying is the discarding of student athletes who have injuries and cant continue playing. Is that a problem that is on your mind . I think the way that we take care of student athletes today is continuing to grow. The University Students that im in touch with, the way that i see athletic training rooms and coaching staffs take care of their athletes is, quite frankly, amazing. Its one of the reasons why im here today. Not because of the scholarship that i would receive but because of how enriching that experience was and that was able to propel me to where i am today. Thank you for asking that question. Under current ncaa rules, the minimum scholarship is a oneyear scholarship that can be nonrenewed for any reason, including injury. The injury rate in division i athletes across all sports is 66 . So for a major injury. 50 are going to have chronic. Many coaches use that as excuse to not renew the scholarships, which is very difficult for those players. Especially, some of them are being forced in back in to play too early with serious medical conditions. So there is and and, you know, if you look at, again, big picture, the nature of whether or not to entrust the ncaa with an antitrust exemption and other things, the priority of ncaa sports dont align with the priorities to protect players. Even on health and safety. So its a big concern, yes. So athletes really deserve better protection, physically, financially, and otherwise, correct . Absolutely. Thank you. Dr. Girod. Yes, thank you. If i could just add a comment to that and its an area that i have particular interest in. And i would say that weve actually come quite a ways in the protection of our student athletes from Robust Research and implementation of concussion protocols. To, most recently at our institution, we have created a new entity to take care of our student athletes. An entity that employs our physicians, our trainers and, most importantly, probably our strength and conditioning coaches. They are employed through our Health System and overseen by medical professionals to take that that decisionmaking away from that pressure away from the coach and from the athlete, quite frankly, to make sure that the best interest of the student athlete is looked after. And and, chancellor, i dont i dont mean to imply that that athletic programs dont care about physical injury. Preventing physical injury is the best way of keeping those players on the field, right . Absolutely. So they have an economic incentive in making sure those players get back to the game, just as professional sports teams do. My worry is about the lasting impacts after that student leaves. And careers cut short by injuries that, simply, cant be prevented. And i think that this whole system has to be fundamentally reformed. Farreaching, fundamental reform. And the ncaa has a role to play but only if it gets into the game, which right now, it is failing to do. Senator fisher. Thank you, mr. Chairman. On Football Game days at Memorial Stadium in lincoln, nebraska, we have over 90,000 fans. It becomes the thirdlargest city in the state of nebraska. We have sold out every single husker home game since 1962. And although we are blessed with a very incredible football history, we are also a very rural state that is built around an agricultural economy. I have questions about the impact of nil on recruiting and College Athletes. Particularly, on the marketing and Sponsorship Opportunities for star players. Which may be enhanced in states that have those larger, urban areas. Dr. Girod, how could nil impact recruitment for schools in Rural Communities with smallermedium markets and less business infrastructure . Thank you for the question, senator, and as your neighbor to the south, i sheryl entirely what your concerns are, which is this has a strong possibility to create a big market small market problem where, frankly, states like mine with 3 Million People in it will struggle to be able to compete in in an environment where the biggest media package for an athlete is is going to win the day. And so we have serious concerns about that. And we have serious concerns about then what happens with the economic imbalances that follow and our ability to support our nonrevenue sports. Being quite honest with you, our Athletics Department is largely selfsufficient. They take revenues and pump it into the nonrevenue sports. If that dynamic changes, particularly through an employment model, that landscape will change dramatically, as will our olympic training system. And dr. Emmert, what could an imbalance for urban versus ruralbased campuses do to the concept of fair competition in College Sports, both in revenue and in those nonrevenue sports that dr. Girod mentioned . I we we have that in nebraska, as well. We have a successful football, volleyball. Moneys pumped back into other sports into the university. Whats going to happen there . Well, senator, i think youre youre asking one of the most important and complex questions. Again, the support that that we have within the Association Around finding a better model for nil is predicated on our ability to make sure that recruitment inequities dont occur. And there may well be ways of doing that but in an unrestricted and unfettered model, you would simply wind up with thoizse institutions in urban areas having an extraordinary competitive advantage, both in terms of garnering sponsorship deals which they would use as part of the recruiting inducements for student athletes to come to those those marketplaces. And similarly, you could see, as chancellor girod said, if there were no guardrails around this model, there could be some severe disadvantages to to the olympic sports, in particular, because the resources that flow into a big program like your Football Program in nebraska would no longer be available for programs like your marvelous volleyball program. With our volleyball program, fivetime national champions, its one of the best in ncaa history. Mr. Bowlsby, could nil have any title ix implications . Im im very concerned about that and whats going to happen with risks that were going to see to title ix. Also, how are we going to be able to preserve its integrity . Thank you very much for the question. And if you will allow me a bit of time, i think, you have less than a minute. I might not be able to do it in that time. But i i think what i am raising as an issue is really the heart of the matter. The recruiting environment is absolutely critical on this. And it it will have title ix implications, senator. But we will also see student athletes that come to campus with agents and managers. And their representatives will participate in many aspects of their life on campus. Recruits will come to campus with preexisting agent relationships and established business ventures. And coaches will be forced to recruit both the player and the family, as well as the agent and representative. Boosters and donors and third parties will, inevitably, be involved in the recruitment and transfer decisions. Including without the knowledge of institutional representatives and many much of that will happen on the internet. Nonscholarship and walkon players will receive support from boosters and donors and third parties. And effectively, increase the scholarship allocations beyond agreedupon numbers. The project will commence with student athletes not using institutional marks and logos but will eventually transition and the negotiations will be part of the recruitment process. It it goes on and on and on. The intersection with the recruiting environment is the absolute epicenter of this consideration. And given the entrepreneurial nature of coaching staffs, they will find very effective ways of having thirdparty inducements to enroll and transfer a big part of the nil environment. Right. And its that integrity that i worry about the decline of. Yeah. We need to make sure we get this right so that every student athlete, male, female, whatever sport theyre going to be in, is going to be able to be treated fairly. Be able to have a good experience for themselves, their family, and for the school that they attend. That thats absolutely correct, senator. Thank you. And i think it also the extent to which institutional representatives become involved in helping with nil reintroduces title ix to the root of your question into the conversation because the 13 components of title ix certainly bear on the recruitment environment. You were slightly more effective than the chairman in enforcing the time limits. Senator tester. Thank you, mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, appreciate you holding this hearing as always. Its one of the best hearing we will have today because of the good work of the chairman and Ranking Member. I also noticed that when you pointed out all of the advantages that kansas had in the sporting arena, you failed to mention kansas the super bowl champion, kansas city chiefs. But we will set that aside. Senator tester, we do appreciate the senator pointing out the chiefs and its relationship to kansas. Secondly, i have told most of the witnesses here today they were all my second choice for a witness. I was hoping for mccombs as awitness to talk about that. That would have been good, too. So, look. I mean, i think we can all agree that whats going on right now isnt working. And in in if you want to dispute that, id love to hear the dispute. I think we could also agree that if you have 50 different states having 50 different sets of rules, thats not going to work too well either. In fact, thats not going to work at all. And my concern here is that as tuition in colleges continue to go up, its whoever has the biggest wallet to pay these pay these athletes. Could could really screw things up badly. So let let me before i get to my question that i really want to know, i just i just want to say that i want to confirm what ive heard. That if an athlete gets injured, that, potentially, the scholarship could or would be taken away. And that they are on their own after that. Is that true . Go ahead. Senator, thank you for asking the question because its a very, very important one. No, it is not true. Indeed, the schools are expressly prohibited from pulling a scholarship from a student because of an injury. Okay. So they can make up another excuse, though, potentially . Theyre not doing that . Well, can you clarify what youre asking . So what i am saying is that there is a lot of ways to skin a cat. Okay . You you can you could figure out ways to make their gpa go down. Theres probably things in it. But the but the point is this. If, in fact, the intent of the law or the intent of the rule is and i assume there is an ncaa rule or you would not have responded to this, mark but i would assume that they are not allowed to jerk a scholarship if a student gets hurt. Thats correct, senator. All right. Go ahead. Make it quick. During the period of award, if its a oneyear scholarship and they are injured during that year, it cannot be removed. But as soon as the scholarship ends for that year, the college can nonrenew it. I got you. So thats thats thats a problem. Okay . I think thats a problem. If if a kid gets hurt and hes playing football, basketball, volleyball, it doesnt matter. They should be taken care of. The more important point is, is this. Patchworks not going to work. Whats currently out there isnt going to work. Mr. Emmert, and by the way, sorry i called you mark. But hes we we got a list of states here. Kansas and connecticut and tennessee and nebraska and West Virginia. I come from montana. Okay . Mark knows this because he worked at Montana State university. And and, quite frankly, its great agtthletics. Its incredible. You guys have done a marvelous job at the ncaa making this what it is today. But the truth is, id hate to have to compete with alabama or duke because i dont think i dont think weve got thick enough wallets to do that. So the question is, is how advanced are the talks within within the ncaa to solve this problem . This problem of students creating economy that is so good and not getting much, if any, reward for it. You want you want to tell me where youre at in conversations about solutions . Because i im going to tell you. To be honest with you, you dont want us to solve this. You want us to help you solve this. So the question is, is where are we at in talks . Where are we at as far as putting stuff on paper . Because time is a clicking. And we cant stop the states from doing what theyre doing. And so we have got to figure it out. Yes, senator tester. Well, as i was explaining earlier, this is a timeline in place with a target of having this resolved by january of 2021. Whether thats sufficiently aggressive or not is, in large part, dependent do you have anything on paper right now . We dont. But we will by april. You will in a few months . Yes. Are are are you willing to share that with other folks . The folks that are at this table and with us . At that time . Yes. Certainly. Okay. And youre willing to take input on how you can make it better. Absolutely. Okay. Could you just, very quickly, 21 seconds 20 seconds mr. Bowlsly, just tell me what impact montana might have something, North Carolina might have something, texas might have something. What does that do to what does that do to the ecosystem . Well, thank you for the question. And once again, this is the very epicenter of the of the challenge. I think the coin of the realm becomes what can you offer under the state laws that you you have in effect . What can the description of the the california arizona situation mentioned earlier is a good example. Thats one thats within an individual conference. But when oklahoma comes to texas to recruit in my conference, if the laws are different in oklahoma than they are in texas, youll find a disparate recruiting environment. And thats problematic. So ill just im going to wrap this real quick, mr. Chairman. It was touched on a little bit about the pay of coaches. I think were going to end up doing the same thing for the players if were not careful. That youre going to have schools that can pay players a lot of money and they probably should earn it. But the truth is is is that if were not careful what were doing, it might be on somebody elses back. I think right now, its on all the student athletesbacks so we got to figure out how to make it fair for everybody moving forward. Im not even going to get into northern latitudes or rural schools because i think if we dont do it right, it further further puts them behind and i dont want to see that. Theres theres educations education. I think athletics is a part of education. I hope it remains that way. Although, in a lot of cases, if you are playing football or basketball in these bigger schools, its hard. Its hard to get an education. You can get an education but its hard to get an education because so much of your time is dedicated to that sport and thats why were here. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator thune. Thank you mr. Chairman for having this important hearing a subject many on this committee care deeply about. I will get into northern latitudes and rural schools. The Summit League, as you know, is comprised of nine schools. And its home to South Dakota State University and the university of south dakota. Several states where the Summit League has schools are contemplating legislation to address student athlete compensation. Are conferences today equipped to comply with a patchwork of state laws that seek to address the issue of name, image, and likeness . Thank you for the question, senator, and i think your your question applies to both urban and rural environments. And the answer is, in short, no, theyre not. In large part, most conferences, indeed virtually all of them, have interstate boundaries, as does the summit conference. Having states with having conferences with multiple state rules within them would be would be incredibly dysfunctional for the reasons we have been discussing. And it is also true that it brings to bear competition between rural and urban areas even within those conferences that currently exist that would be would be very, very problematic. Yeah. Commissioner bowlsby, the big 12 conference is another good example. Is the big 12 prepared to comply with state laws . We are not. Dr. Emmert, as i understand it, the ncaa ban on athletes profiting from their name, image, and likeness violates antitrust law but the court has ruled the ncaa so long it allows its member schools to allow College Athletes the full cost of attendance. How would the name, image, and likeness rules that you are considering likely impact the ncaas antitrust exemption . Part of the part of the conversation thats going on right now, senator, and again, thank you for that equally important question. Part of the discussions going on right now is to try and address precisely the question youre asking. The Association Schools are deeply committed to maintaining the College Model and making sure we can adhere to the values that are consistent with the Legal Precedents that exist and how College Sports has gone on for a great deal of time. So threading the needle is trying to determine how can we expand opportunities . Because there is a general agreement that providing greater opportunity for students around their their name, image, and likeness is a very good thing. But doing that in a way that doesnt immediately provoke antitrust litigation around the actions of the association. How can we make sure that we can do good without without immediately being back being back in court is one of the greatest problems that we have right now. Ill direct this to you, doctor, but i want to open it up to members of the panel. Its been suggested that there should be a limit on the amount of funds potential name, image, and likeness can sponsor to protect students from predatory interactions. Do you agree with that . Then i would like to hear others comment as well. Dr. Emmert. Senator, again, i think the question is what can and cannot be done in the current legal context. The current legal context in the litigation environment that weve found ourselves in makes it extraordinarily difficult to determine what what boundaries can, indeed, be set on those forms of of compensation that might come toward a student athlete and for what they are being compensated. Without turning that student into an employee of an institution. Thats part of the debate thats in front of us today. Okay. Others . Spencer . We dont want to see caps, capsule protect the players. A cap would reduce the opportunity economically, and i think getting at the idea of competitive equity, is one of the issues. But the current rules, under the current rules of the state, 91 99. 3 of the top 100 football reduces recruits they have conferences with alumni, they are bigger schools, ridges donors. They continuously pool the best recruits across different sports. The place at the point i made earlier today, to cap players and still allow booster payments to flow to these five conferences, to allow them to continue gaining revenue, in order to further outspend on recruiting, coaches and facilities. They will continue to get the recruits. Without addressing those other issues, we are not advocating, were just talking about what reality is. Reality is you will not change the migration of recruiting, by blocking players opportunity. The par five conferences will get year in and year out the best recruits. I will close and say doctor emirate, we look forward to your working group as those activities continue. Feedback from you and hopefully on a timeline in a bush enables us to stay ahead of whats happening of all the states. We look forward to hearing from you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you mister chairman, i want to say thank you for each of you for taking time to be here today, and to work with us on this issue. And mr. Spencer, i wish you well. I have a son who was a runner, and ran in college, and still as an adult is out there competing in triathlons. I know how important that training is, we wish you well in that endeavor. I have to tell you, i think thats senator blumenthal and i are on the same page. I think this is something that mr. Spencer you are closest to this. We saw athletes there coming to your school, with youtube channels, internet social media influencer, and so it is different. It is very important that you all get this right. Fair transition transparent, you think that is that it is your party. I was really disappointed with our meeting last week. I think we are looking at a time where the ncaa has failed, when it comes to women, in sports sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual because, that has occurred. I think a question that must be going through a lot of minds, as student athletes and their parents, is how in the world will they be able to trust you, to get this right . I have to tell you, i look at the issue around jane while easement, at the university of memphis. This is a situation where in 2017, Penny Hardaway gave us star this mother 11,500 dollars to help the family moved to memphis. This young man we would go and play for the university of memphis, and then in 2018 he became the head coach at memphis. In 2019, mr. Weisman chose to play at memphis, in the ncaa cleared him, in november of 2019, and see double a suspended this freshman basketball player, around for 12 games. Because of concerns with 11,500 dollars, and i will tell you i think there is been little or any transparency between him, the university and your organization. The way this went about, the way you arrived at the decision, when you talk about student academic success, being in fairness, this is been of failure for you all. The way that you have handled this. We are looking at a time where now, student athletes are going to be trying to figure out, if they are better off going straight to the pros, and skipping college because of situations like james weisman. And because they lack transparency. And a lack of consistency. And a lack of fairness, that is being given out to them. Doctor gerard, i see you nodding your head would you like to comment i guess i would comment that most of you would know, we are an episode of allegations within the ncaa. I guess i would say, as a member organization, we are part of the organization that makes the rules. We understand those rules, we support those rules. Our current situation, i dont think the evidence supports the allegation. Thank you. Mr. Emirate, if there was a potential con collective interest, why wasnt the university in the weisman family told early on in the process . I respect and appreciate the concern that you expressed over this issue. No one anywhere in their intercollegiate system takes any play pleasure in punishing a university or a young man or young woman around these issues dont enforcement action. Im not involved in the details enough of that particular case to be able to answer your specific question you are the ceo. When there is a lack of transparency or subjectiveness, the objectivity should come to you. I yield back my time. Thank you mister chairman, thank you all for coming today. Its been a very interesting hearing. The chairman i will diverge a little bit from what the chairman said to say strictly on message. You recently signed a big 12 deal, to stream on espn plus. We kansas playing West Virginia tomorrow, you can only view the game in West Virginia, if you pay the four 99 monthly streaming fee, and if you have connectivity. Its been a source of very deep concern, through West Virginia. I want to give you a chance to respond, we dont have a prostate. These are our pro teams. We want to see that victory on our tv. On wednesday. And then we play baylor again, Number One Team in the country. Same thing. Can you respond to that please . I would be happy to, senator ive had the opportunity not surprisingly to respond to this question previously. We took a leap of faith with a new technology. We believe that streaming an espn platform is best in class. Its a voyage of exploration, theres no doubt about that. We live in states, the five of them that have 35 Million People. As such, we really dont have the option of a Linear Network at some of the other conferences have done. So the Digital Process is the best we have available to us. And frankly, its quite good. We are up to 8 million subscribers, we are part of a package with disney plus, the now has over 30 million subscribers. We think its an environment where the cable universe is shrinking one and a half to 2 a year, that we will end up with a lot of you were cable households than we have today. The digital platforms are the future. I was involved with the rollout of the big ten network, and the pack 12 network. I have to say the number of complaints we have had have been much less than those to roll outs. The objection you raised is exactly the right one. If you do not have broadband that is capable in a rural area, it is difficult to get it. It is available on a multitude of different platforms, and for the most part not level of broadband is available just about anywhere if you want to pursue it and then subscribe. This is a sort of contention television talked with West Virginia university folks. Maybe it is a bit before its time, its a source of irritation im sure you understand that. I dont want to go back over the title ix issue, senator fisher talked about it. It is a source of concern, my daughter plays Division One Sports for four years in volleyball. One of the best athletes we have in our state, is jenny thrash or who was on our w. Rifle team. She won the first gold medal last year. She has since graduated. What kind of and ill opportunities which we have, and how would you keep that fair i think thats a major challenge for women sports who dont generate revenue, we dont have the big sponsors coming in and wanting to sponsor even the Womens Basketball team will have trouble, even though theyre very popular in certain areas. I want to register that complaint. We want to ask this question, because youre a former Football Player. Here is the problem i see two, youve got the quarterback all the time makes the pass, as you see this in the pros gets the, glory gets the touchdown and all that, but the quarterback can do what he does, if he doesnt have a center, to get the ball to him how many our tune it is does the center going to have to capitalize on Something Like this . In comparison to what but to me one of the beauties, and mr. Spencer you talked to this, of intercollegiate sports, is the leadership, the development, the camaraderie, the ability to overcome, losses and triumph, and gain, how are you going to panel that, and keep that team element, that is so critical to this team sports . Im glad you asked that question, i really, that dynamic part that you say, in sports when you look at, many of the equivalent, sports you have maybe on the same team, maybe a few players on scholarship, you have some that are impartial scholarship, other with none, desperately wanted, and the other leagues as well, there is a deep variety of salaries differences, and the pro, whether its on the college leg of all, are the leaks, you never hear about that in the lock, room the content, its everything that she just said, the camaraderie, which still exist, you see it already again, in the partial scholarship sports, you see it in the other pro leagues as well and, i think that, the opportunities for, women are extraordinary, if you have an olympic medalist, they can have a lot of different opportunities, thats great in her lives, from spends she had a, she basically had had she stayed, she couldve had the visibility of the sport, because little girls who are watching these swimmers and soccer players, and other people, they are seeing these popular athletes drawing more attention, and historically, we have not been, given so as much, it would definitely be an equalizer, in terms of womens fourth. Thank you and to finish my time, unfortunately and, i know the chairman wants to take the time, but i do want to work with, you and the conference is to having a patchwork of 38 different regulations is a nightmare for the our country and i want us to figure out a way to figure this out thank you. Thank you mister chairman i appreciate you holding this hearing is bigger view seeing as you lost the headquarters of the ncaa years ago, but to responding to your earlier commentary, we are grateful to have the ncaa, and the annapolis on our panel, its really important issue, that comes down to a question a, fairness and equity, and, we need to, tackle it intelligently, were trying to strike a balance here, and the maintain the fundamental notion of College Sports, a federal college port possible well addressing this and i l that on lumber of states have already proactively addressed in different ways i, think about whose whose your teenager, first one to attend, college and they go out onto the court, or the field, and they are able to do make a real impact, and create some value, for the institution for, their conference for the anti ncaa, doctor emirate how can we create opportunity for kids to ring this value, to an institution to a broader constellation of entities, that are involved here . Without doing harm to the collegial model that provide so much value to roughly a half million kids around the country . Thank you, senator and the question that youve raised is also to this topic, because what we we would, all and i think this is true of all the witnesses before you. What we would like to do is find ways in which the it individually are talking about can be able to take advantage of the name, image, and likeness, whether they brought it with them from high school, or whether they developed it well and college, but at the same time, doing so, in a way that creates sufficient guardrails, that the recruiting issues that mr. Burrows be raised and others have talked about, the involvement of the institution in providing recruiting inducements, are constrained, and, indeed what were seeing, is the, real market value, if you will of that individual. But crafting that particular model is a challenge, and that, is, indeed, why we are having this conversation. So as we reflect on, and perhaps premature to ask this question, but as we reflect on what success might look, like after we work this out, would it be qualitative in nature or are there things where we can measure . To determine whether or not we have arrived at a fair outcome . Im sorry could you elaborate on your question . Im not quite sure. Sure, how do we measure success . First, of all if we can crafter model collectively, the, again provide, some opportunity for, students i can put a qualitative number on it, but it provides a greater level of opportunity for students, so that they can engage in activities that look and feel more like the rest of the student body. And that theyre not prohibited from participating in those kinds of activities, while at the same time, providing guardrails that prevent inappropriate recruiting inducements or the conversion of the students the facto into employees, i think somewhere between those two parameters, senator is where we want to be. Thats helpful, thankful, commissionables be i here keep hearing these concerns about californias fair pay play to act. And the patchwork of state laws that may present a challenge to the ncaa if other states enact their own versions of the and i yell laws. Can you elaborate in your specific concerns about the California Laws . Thank you for your question senator, it has specific concerns about the breath of california, law may be of the subsequent proposals share those same can characteristics. Others have included amendments that render something thats akin to guardrails. But my concern has always been around the recruitment environment. I believe that we will, essentially, find ourselves in an unregulated recruitment environment because, the and i yell name, image and, likeness owned by the individual student athlete or recruit, will quickly become currency in the recruiting environment. And one institution will play off the other, the same will happen in the transfer environment. There will be inducements by that sometimes institutional officials wont even know about, thank you commissioner, just very briefly, does anyone disagree with the commissioners concerns . Senator young, i do not. Student athletes, this is a very realistic pressure. You dont disagree. I would say that the inducements on recruiting, absolutely agree that there is ways to, you know solve, that but the whole promise that it has to be done in a federal level, it doesnt, its only a matter of time and tell the rest of the nation handles it. Our concern is that theyre going to be an overreach, and theyre going to turn a right back to what it looks like today, because in reality, they would never have been here, at this table, without the states pushing. The other thing, actually, if you will let me, the board of governors has expressed authority to settle legal issues. So all that talk about how long it would take the end to see aa to come up with something, the board of governors, they dont have to go through with that, that route that takes a long time, california has a, law thats a legal issue, or they could wake up tomorrow, and actually put uniform policies in place structured around whats going on in the states. Thank you chairman, thank you all. Thank you senator young, were going to have another round of questions and im going to yield my time at the moment to senator thrown. Thank you mister chairman, just as a followup to the discussion we were having about how these rules might work, among different sized institutions, say division one, division two, division three, would you envision, i guess, mr. Emirate started with you, these rules having one set of rules for all divisions . Or would you have different rules for each division . Currently the way and aa legislation, the rules are put together on, a division of, by division basis, it is its own individual division that has authority to press roles within their division. The board of governors can set broad parameters, the board of governors includes representatives, University President s, from all three divisions, they have authority to set policy parameters that are the they are trying to do now. I believe that most people are comfortable today saying that these parameters are well enough to find individual divisions that have some variations within them. Thats what exists today but in differentiations between those divisions, one school is not just financial, its also what does that school want . What level do they want to participate in intercollegiate epileptics . And there could be variations in how this is applied as well, depending on where these schools wanted to go. This is just, has been suggested, mr. Humid, mr. Spencer maybe comment on this but this has been socialize with a professional sports leagues, the nfl, the nba, some discussion about removing any anything that would impede an athlete from going pro right out of a high school, and, just you, know, make them allow them to go take advantage and get paid right away. Is there any discussion about . That does not make . Cents and if not war with not now that makes . And thats something that we support, players should have options. It shouldnt be forced into college if they dont want to go to college if they have the talent, to go to another level, i think that if a player has entered the draft, and either get stressed votes, or is likely drafted, or doesnt get drafted at all, those players are not allowed, to stay in an exports, and this is supposed to be about education. Entering the draft is more testing the waters kind of thing, this is about education, why kick those players, out when they are not stepping foot at a pro level contract, pro liberal practice, pro level competition, so those are the concerns around drafting. But it is there a way that it could be structure so that athletes who have the skill level to go to that next, i understand its about education, but a lot of cases your, one of a lot of schools are going up after they fulfill the requirements at the collegial level. Isnt there a way in which you could allow some of these athletes, if they have the skill set, i know what youre saying is that it would take changes in the leagues and in the unions, but what that what that partially solve the problem . Which is allowing the athletes to capture the valley of their skill . I dont think it comes close to solving the problem for College Athletes as a whole at the end of the day these are freedoms that every player across all divisions if they want to go to if you, or a College Athletes youre somebody atyearold high school, you know you, can go through a camp, atyearold high school on elementary school, do an autograph signing back home, you can start a small, business we havent gotten into it, but some of restriction impede speeches freedom of speech, if youre a christian athlete, on the fellowship of christian, athletes and someone wants to pay you to write a blog about your experience as a christian athlete call athlete, the nbc aa would prohibit, that restricted this is far beyond just beyond the elites. Athletes they deserve all the freedoms are rights as any american. I know its a challenge for all the reasons were talking about this, morning but it does seem, you know as someone who represents a state with major universities that arent part of par were five conferences, how you structure this in a way that its fair, and doesnt create disincentives for those smaller but very good schools to attract and recruit good athletes to the programs. So, im sure this will be an ongoing discussion, thank you mister chairman. Thanks mister chairman, this has been a very very instructive hearing, and i want to thank all of you for being here today, and especially the chairman for his leadership and bringing us together. You know, john f. Community famously said, life is unfair, and life is unfair, not all of us are born with the athletic prowess that other have, which i say, as a College Athlete, a very very limited ability, as a swimmer who never wouldve hadnt any access to any and i all compensation. There are ways to overcome some of these challenges in a way that is fair. And, doctor emirate, let me just ask you, in 2018, did a ncaa, implemented new rules to allow basketball players to sign with the agents, but what those rule changes did not apply to women, isnt that unfair . Senator, i think the question of representation is a very very important one it is, the rule that youre talking is, an evolution that came out of trying to address some of the issues that mr. Humid was just mentioning, trying to line up, more effectively, the professional draft system with the opportunities that may or may not occur for student athletes, so that the athletes scene mens basketball, would be able to have representation when they go into a draft conversation with professional ranks and still have the opportunity to then go undrafted, come back, and continue to compete. That was the very first time its ever been done. Its my hope that we can have a model put in place for women, and all student athletes, that mirrors and models that approach. It is one that has been tried, it has been working successfully now for a, year i think that the members saw it as a Pilot Project and i will, coming from a state that takes great pride in our Women Basketball players, i think it is desperately unfair. And i hope you will correct it. Let me ask you, doctor emirate, when a school gives a oneyear scholarship, and then kicks the young athlete out of school because of an injury at the end of that scholarship, if that injury prevents him or her from playing thats unfair isnt it . And the kinds of practices it seems to me where an athlete works hard and the name and image and likeness become of such value that the school can make money from it strikes me as unfair. Do agree . Sandra believe thats precisely why were sitting here i was trying to find a way to address that issue. And the fact that very often athletes exceed the 20 hour limit in practice in fact exceeded by a lot, im told, in many schools, just compounds the unfairness doesnt . It because they work hard, to game that athletic ability, yes student athletes work incredibly hard and both their academic and athletic endeavors, we strove erie hard to create a rule structure that creates a more appropriate balance between their academic and their athletic lives. Indeed, the rules were changed, just this last, year to do exactly, that and will continue to strive, to do so. And in a lot of schools, there is no provision for insurance paid by the school. In other words, athletes may be covered by insurance but they have to pay for themselves. That strikes me as unfair the requirements, senator for student athletes, is that they have insurance coverage, in many cases, that is their families insurance the policy policy, that is already existing, and many enders it is by the schools insurance policy themselves, in all cases theres an umbrella covered by the and see aa for catastrophic injury. But, as you said, many families have to cover their athletes insurance out of their own pocket, and that seems unfair to me. I want to just finished by saying that there are various different models for dealing with these issues, that sandra capital raised. For example, the financial inducements to athletes who may not be stars there is a bill that focuses on and iowa compensation, but it allows athletes to receive 15 of revenue made from ticket sales if that were distributed evenly among the team, they would be more financial compensation. And i think, that the challenges here, although they are difficult, our less so than the challenges athletes overcome every day, to provide the performances on the field that they do. We are to match their courage and skills with what we do in this committee, and if we dont on the on federal level than we should on our state level. And florida, and and new jersey and new york bills that i mentioned, are on their way to passage. If not there, in other states. So the leadership that we need in this area is very much urgent an immediate. Thank. You senator blumenthal thank you, let me run you through a series of questions that i have, and perhaps will conclude that. Mr. Humid, first of all if the legislation, you promote states making the decisions and pursuing their paths in their state. What we were designed to talk about today was name, image, and likeness. I would take, from your testimony that if we were successful, or the ncaa was successful in developing a program that rewarded, compensated, athletes for and i yell that would be insufficient and that would lend itself towards the next step of additional compensation, or other ways of compensating what our today amateur athletes . No, my only concern and federal law is that it rolls back what the states are doing and, really, though there are about 28 states in play. The legislation look very similar, it is independent representation, and at the freedom of name, image, and likeness and there is, not well there, could be some additional guardrails in terms of recruiting incentives, incentives for, transfer there is no artificial caps, it looks like what america incentives for transfer, there is not what america looks like. It looks like, you know similar to other leagues. If you are free agent, or go somewhere, you are on a team. But the concern is the federal government acts and acquiescence and grandson, anti trust exemption, which is already abused without an exemption. There is an extreme trust gap, theres weve, seen the ncaa has done it with anti trust exemption. Let me ask a question in a different way, if and ill became the rule of the land, however what comes about congress, the ncaa, and, amateur athletes were compensated for the, name, image and, likeness, then would, we would there be other steps that the athletes were take for additional compensation . And while you said that the states are generically have similar that are pending new york, and ticket revenue would be an outlier. Is this sufficient to satisfy the problems you see for College Athletes today, if an all was addressed and addressed appropriately . Economic justice, from our perspective weve been advocating for, i think of it would be in the details, because as we, said this is a multi billion dollar industry, so if were talking about, crumbs than absolutely, not the players got real economic, justice that reflected their, value there might be a whole other conversation. It would be hard to say without any details. Im not trying to prejudged anything, but in many of the things i get involved in, the argument against something is dont do it, its the councils nose in the tenth. And i was trying to figure out if theres something more on the horizon than is required be yawned and i l. And i take it that your testimony is and i l if, done appropriately, provides Economic Justice that you are looking for out the players. It does, again without the details because i think we have different opinions of what justice might look like potentially. Thank you Mister Spencer thank you chairman, that idea assumes that every single athlete is going to be a ground to pat capitalize off and ill. And i all, while it might be a solution, its a solution to a different problem, quite frankly, when it comes to compensation, the broader issue here, we have to really evaluate how much compensation student athlete is actually going to be able to receive if we go to that type of model. Individuals earlier mentioned in the new york situation, that 15 would probably rollout of either at the university or different parties, and that means that money is not going to the athletic facilities. For me, as a student athlete, i want that. You know, i really appreciate having upgrades to my facilities. They have a new toy at Georgetown University, when i goal lift, that measures your bar speed, and for track and field, student athletes, to be able to know how fast are moving the, way it is incredibly meant official. To those kinds of things that we are looking, at as we move forward, we have to really, examine whether or not this is the appropriate way to give a student the adequate compensation. This leads me to the second question, which is, my concern that, you are in front of our committee, that has a lot of members from, rural states with Small Schools, you from, new mexico, have an understanding of those schools, we want to make certain that we take care of athletes who arent necessarily in the sport that generate significant revenues or profits and universities, and i think that mr. , humid as we had this conversation, hes come back to many of my concerns, to tell me, to tell the committee, that those disparities already exist. So when i when i began the hearing towards the top of my priority is how you take care of places that the schools are small, the programs dont generate a lot of revenue, their sports within those schools that are not moneymaker title ix and to me, does this does, and i else olive, does it create more problems in that regard . Does it create greater disparities between the top schools and a top athletes and a top programs in the top sports because of greater disparity that occurs or does that all those problems and disparities that im worried about that comes from conversation compensation already exist . And this is not relevant topic for that disparity if i may, you hit the nail right on the head. Even if some of these disparities exist, we do not create something that exaggerates those issues. The question is what in this exaggerate those issues . As one of the reasons why this is such a complex discussion to have all hands on deck, this is one of the reasons why it takes as long as it does because in order to adequately answer the question, of what success looks like you need all of the stakeholders at the table having a discussion that some of that cannot be done overnight mr. Human has been strong and outlining his belief that the disparities begin today, and i dont have any reason to dispute that they dont exist, is there anyone who would comment on and ill and those this parties . Are they exasperated, are the challenges made more difficult or does this help address the issue. Yes well off my colleagues to address it as well since their on campus directly. It would exasperated. And thats part of the reason why we should create a model that has some sort of guardrails that can mitigate some of those issues. There is little doubt that it would in fact create greater disparities between schools, and between the athletes themselves in and out of itself may not be a reason why not to pursue it but it must be done in a very thoughtful manner. Mr. Bowls we talked about texas and oklahoma of couple of schools that were full very well familiar with. And the difficulty they wouldve within the conference of texas had different rules to oklahoma and to compensation. So what about those advantages and disadvantages exist today . Texas to me is the place where the tv markets are within our conference. So are we solving a problem, or adding to a problem with name, image and likeness . Is it, is recruitment more difficult in one place that another already . Thank you for the question senator. I believe recruitment will be made infinitely more contentious. There will be more disagreements among institutions among who did what and we offered what was it the institution or downside officially my thoughts on this are we need to modernize, and there isnt any doubt about it. We need to have continued broadbased programming that takes title ix into account. We are not the nfl or the nba. We do not have a draft, we are not the olympics. We do not have the prerogative to compete for anyone else but your country. The liberalization and modernization is something we should absolutely do. It should not be per se pay for play. And it should not be a proxy for pay for play. And so with that, as i said in my statement, between the idea and the reality, there is a shadow. How do you treat student athletes fairly . How do you put more money in their pockets . How do you allow them to use their name image and likeness, without entering into a choice of institutions, or the choice of transfer . I would have hoped that the senator thune was in the room for this comment. One of the practical outcomes will be when you get to be a highprofile athlete, at the university of south dakota, you will be recruited away with inducements, to play at a higher level. If there is no penalty for transfer, it will be an open market of recruitment. The concept of an unregulated recruitment environment, and an unregulated transfer environment, i think is an absolute certainty in this environment. The issue of amateurs, in other words thats not an employee, employee your employer relationship. Does and aisle itself, with whatever we define as appropriate guardrails. Does it change an athlete from being an amateur, to an athlete being an employee of the university of the Athletic Department . Is there enough and i in and i all that legally changes the relationship between team and player . Senator if i might address that, it depends it shouldnt be the case that the institution are university was in fact orchestrating the and ill payment of the university was in the midst of brokering those sponsorship arrangements for example. I believe will be extremely difficult to differentiate that. To make sure this is being conducted by truly an independent third party it is certainly possible that it might not. Those are the challenges of working out this model. Denotes ive made today, the and i all one of a say in recruitments and inducements, what could be in Non Profitable areas of the country, or in specific teams. The employee employer being not amateur consequences to title ix, somewhat related to the issue that large and Small Schools in recruitment, like you just outlined in south dakota. I did not know that that list is all encompassing. Rather than take the time of the moment, i would ask any of you to link them that list, or shorts and that list to me as to what concerns we ought to have four and ill. He indicated, you indicated doctor gerard, that he will highlighted some of the things that were involved in that and what athletics means to your university in a number of areas want to reiterate or highlight that component, of why an amateur team, or teams on campus is important to our university. Why is having a sports team at a university important in the University Community . Thank you senator for the opportunity to reiterate that. College athletics is unique in the world. It doesnt exist anywhere else in the world. It is part of what makes our universities the envy of the world. It tracks our donors, and the alumni engaged. It benefits current student athletes, we spoke about how does so today. It certainly it creates a tremendous for tremendous our Athletics Department does not fund the university. Our university does not fund the athletics. Either the benefits that the university gains again, being a midwest university, where we are we rely on student recruitment. Be on a National Stage on a regular basis you cannot replace that. Let me ask a question to kansas and now would have a broader consequence and understanding. We are a successful Basketball Program at the university of kansas, historically and currently. The concern has been the ability for schools to recruit, athletes and other places. You know kansas has a such a successful Basketball Program. Was the consequence so the ability of university of kansas to compete for athletes to come play basketball with and ill . There are some disparities in the system today. They have to do with authority budgets, after the with history as well. And success of student athletes that come to the institution. The reality is today, well play by the same rules. That does not completely eliminate disparities, but at least we are recruiting on the same rules. We can lose a student athlete to any of the other conferences, or to anyone because we all play by the same rules. Potentially going into an unregulated environment, as the commissioner said, it profoundly limits the ability to compete in a media market. , representing student athletes in commercial agreements. You indicate i think this is a quote not necessary for government to appoint a College Group licensing entity. What type of entity is appropriate for that role . There are groups licensing organizations, up until the california bill when it was imminent. That the bill would pass. I want to make sure they had Group Licensing like some of the other leagues. They have their own Licensing Company called players ink. They were in the middle of a big collaboration with major league baseball. Because what i discuss these options with them, they said they would be healthy happy to help. If these opportunities opened up for College Athletes, licensing is a proper vehicles nsing Group Licensing, if youe familiar with video games, its all those things are players receive an equal share of distributions, regardless are the first string quarterback or the third string lineman. In College Sports, is very critical. There was a Group Licensing market that was recognized, which includes video games, tv broadcast, merchandise and all, i think we agree it sounds like we agree that the school should not be providing the representation. Might be possible there would be in a an employee to get involved. In those instances, and theres merchandise, there is a jersey. It could be up to the Apparel Company to initiate a communication with the school, and with the Licensing Company. Saying hey we want to be all to do these things, we are willing to pay. An Apparel Company pays the Licensing Company, so the players get their distribution. It also pay separately the schools, or whatever entity in collaboration, whether it be other forms of Group Licensing opportunities. The third party is the source of payment. In our concern with the ncaa, theres a big conflict of interest. By defect, which is also in the rulings, is show that the colleges are already selling player groups licenses in these areas, and giving the players no money. That is a big red flag when they mention the opportunity to do Group Licensing as a matter of congressional federal law. It is my practice to always give the witnesses any opportunity to say anything that they were not asked, that they wish they were or something they were asked and would like to clarify. If any of you have something that would like to be on the record, how did glad to hear from you before we conclude the hearing. Mr. Spencer. Just a few things responding to last comments. First and foremost, student athletes do not know the ncaa as gentlemen of mark amber it to my right. They know it as the people we have on campus, our coaches and our staff. There is no way that you will be able to convince me or any other student athlete, that Group Licensing organizations know more about how welfare than those on campus. And those individuals that would rather see handle those issues. And when we talk about and ill, and the potential impact that what might have on the employer employee relationship, we have to remember when it comes to social media, thats whereas the social media will leverage some of that. Your compensation comes from an aisle in the form of the content that you produce. The continuity produce is going to be the stuff that you demonstrate, on the field. Its going to be through your institution. That can have a legal issue in terms of how that relationship works. Finally we really have to think about the way our rights are executed right now, when it comes to technology, in a way that it comes to executed to right of publicity, which is and ill. We live in a framework which is digitally driven. We live into innovation economy driven by influencer. We have to consider that Playing Field. More importantly, in all these discussions, i know we talked about a lot of the failures of the system, one of the best successes is the simple fact that soon athletes we are involved in each and every one of these discussions. The student athlete Adviser Committee is present in every campus, on every division across the country. That is why it is important to make sure we consider that. In order to recognize the differences between schools that are in rural neighborhoods, and schools that are in more affluent areas, we need to give soon athletes the chance to help craft some of these rules. That is what we do when we come together. With the committee on the institutional, conference and national level. That is what we do and thats why been making the strides that weve made. I wanna talk about the question that you had exaggerating the advantages and disadvantages currently. Theres not much room to really exacts operated. 99 of the top hundred football recruits go to the power five. That is a reflection of the migration all the way around. Lets just see it is 2500 recruits, in football. Most of the top ones and up in the power five. Whether the power five, and within the par five would 30 or 40 of them, typically get destroyer fruits. The reason why it wont be exaggerated, there are still roster elements. Theres still scholarship limits. No matter how many players want to be on one part here basketball team, they cant go. Or any other sport. Theres still gonna be a limit of where they can go. Its not gonna magically produce double the amount of talented athletes. That is a builtin mechanism. I would suggest that Congress Looking at this knowing the advantages and disadvantages of today, whether that changes a bit because of any given factors, i dont know if it will be congress is job to cement the status quo whatever we power structure there are cleansing of the National Football league. Especially talking about opening up opportunities for players, i think thats more important to weigh the rights of these players, rather than any particular migration of recruits that is limited anyways, and where they ended up. Thank you. Anyone else would like to speak . I guess i would like to first of all say thank you senator fair leadership, and willingness to take on this complicated topic. And just to reiterate, as we look at these issues, lets not forget the 90 of the student athletes that get an education and a great launch on life, and will not go into professional athletics. Mister chairman, let me add my words of thanks. And also let you know that, we stand ready to work with you in the rest of the committee, to make sure that we can move forward with this issue, to provide greater opportunities for our students, and preserve all the things that we love about College Sports. Mr. Bowls be you dont have to speak if you dont want to. I will be brief. Thank you senator, i think remarkably, we agree on a number of things. First i think we all agree on the modernization of the model. I think we agree, but broadbased programming, and compliance with title nine in all the opportunities that it has created. I think we all agree with Fair National competition. And disagree a bit on how we get there. Indeed one in five College Athletes is a First Generation College student. The College Athletic Scholarship Programs is the second largest Scholarship Program in history of our country. Second only to the gi bill. What we are seeking, is a safe harbor, to allow us to modernize, and cling to the things that we find important about College Athletics. You have to make the progress that is required. Thank you. My view is that each and every one of you has been exceptionally helpful to us, to the Commerce Committee in developing thoughts about how we proceed going forward. My personal view is britain lies with those of you at that table, at the moment not us. We stand a bold, we stand ready and willing to be helpful. As we try to figure out how to probably change the status quo to the benefit of all athletes, who had ten college and get an education. I appreciate what you all have the say, and it is very useful for me in understanding what is ahead of us. With that, the hearing record will remain open for two weeks. What that means is members of this committee can submit questions to you, during that time. Upon receiving those questions, we will ask you as witnesses to submit your written answers to the committee, as soon as possible. Just as we would hope that you would do in resolving this issue, just as soon as possible. But that, the hearing is concluded and we are adjourned we did hear that but its nothing that will come from this committee. Do you agree with any of the sort of apocalyptic vision and the have this huge advantage . Well, i mean, i came to this hearing with the with the concern that Small Schools and small media markets and, particularly, athletes who arent participants in the revenuegenerating sports, would be disadvantaged. And i think i heard reasons that they would be. What was highlighted for me is that theres already those disadvantages. But i i i my conclusion at the moment is that they would be exacerbated. And we need to figure out how we better i think the point that was made that, again, hits home for me is that we also need to determine how we protect and support the 98 of the athletes who may not be who may not be recruited for a marketing opportunity in their name, image, and likeness. So there is when we when we think of College Sports, we think of what we see on television and we think of who goes to National Championships and we see those players. But theres such a significant number of other athletes that their opportunities for name, image, and likeness compensation is, i assume, pretty minimal. So how do we make certain we dont do things that harm the program and dont advantage the the vast majority of student athletes across the country . Whats your confidence level in the ncaa creating something in april that will be fair . Well, i mean, i i i wish we would have heard about a process that is quicker, more timely. I dont know whether this becomes the aps question was 50 different jurisdictions dealing with this issue, does that create an incentive for congress to act . I think the answer to that is yes but it also means that many of my colleagues may become wedded to their states law. And i think, over time, while there is an impetus to get something done, it may become more difficult. So the ncaa, im im for Less Government involvement in these kind of issues. And i would like to see the ncaa and their athletes reach a through a process that includes athlete participation, reach a conclusion. I dont i didnt hear today that thats on the immediate horizon. But well see what they are able to present us in april. And how how firm, how concrete, how solid those kind of policies are. From now until then, what do you guys do . You just kind of wait for them . I think the next step is to for me, is to have a conversation certainly with senator blumenthal, with chairman wicker, and Ranking Member cantwell. Mostly, i think this is an opportunity for us to educate ourselves and be better prepared. So if in april there is a role for congress to play, were in a position to act more quickly than congress normally acts. How would you characterize the level of knowledge on this issue right now among members in the senate . Like, you mentioned wanting to get more educated. And i talk to people that say they felt like a lot of people dont know a lot yet. See, i think my impression is that my colleagues and i dont certainly know enough to to reach any conclusions as to what should be done. My impression is that many of us see student athletes. Again, the ones that we see performing on saturday television. And we certainly recognize their value and the the importance of compensation for perhaps for name, image, and likeness. But we theres so many ramifications to this that are beyond just that snapshot that there is a significant amount of education necessary to get me and my colleagues in a position to have an understanding. And you heard it from the Witnesses Today. Theyre in the business of athletic programs at universities across the the nation. And there isnt the consensus today was that what we have, the status quo, is inappropriate, inadequate, unfair. But we did not hear anything specific about what the next set of policies should be. So i think the takeaway, i hope, for many of us is this is not a simplistic there is no simplistic answer to this issue. And this hearing served that purpose in in highlighting it. One more question. That must mean im not answering them very well. What do you make of senator blackburns comment that there is a lack of trust between the ncaa and several of the student athletes . And how does that dictate the role that Congress Takes in this issue . Well, i think every member of the senate, every member of congress may have history or relationships with their universities and and its that universitys relationship with the ncaa. I i think that the chancellor of the university of kansas answered this pretty well, which was, we trust them to reach the right conclusion but we disagree, sometimes, with the facts. So the process the process that the ncaa at least in the testimony today was was okay. Its just that the facts arent yet known. So i think every member brings kind of their their thoughts, their biases, their to how they view the ncaa. Thanks. Good . One one more thing. Senator blumenthal, at one point, he kept repeating this about how some of the ncaas practices have been unfair to female athletes. What could the what do you think they could do better to make sure womens athletes are better represented . Well, you can ask you need to ask senator blumenthal, you know, his complaints about what i would say is we need to make sure that if there is compensation for name, image, and likeness. And it appears to me that that will, someday soon, be the case. That it doesnt disadvantage female athletes. That it is still advantageous. That it doesnt undermine title ix. That nil doesnt undermine title ix. And that i i hope there is markets for female athletes to also earn compensation under nil. Sounds great. Thank you. Outside of hearings like today, you know, where are members like today. Where are members getting the education . Who is in their ear, to them and their staff, making their case . Weve seen a variety of opinions how they should all play out. I can only we have had representatives of athletes in conversation with me. Weve had University Officials as well as conference and ncaa. That is in part i suppose because of the position i occupy. My assumption is, they are making the rounds, the group of folks to her testify today have been active. My impression is that they have been active in visiting with. It seems to me certainly my colleagues in this panel. The subcommittee. Those folks have been in to see them. Thank you. Yes. Thank you