Coons. Convening under different circumstances than our previous meeting. The were cbc following the guidanc the cdc and the office of the attending physician. So were spaced further apart. Our staff is reduced. Though we are grateful for all of them. The general public is watching online rather than filling up the room. So our hearing today will look a little different. I think we could all agree that the capitol feels a little different, the halls of congress feel a little different. Small businesses, if theyre allowed to open at all, are operating under a very different circumstance. American homes have been classrooms. And offices for millions of americanan family. And at least for a while American Life as we know it has changed. Net nonetheless, access or inaccess to Broadband Internet services m especially in rural areas has remain unchanged. And it might be a good topic for us to touch on today. Our witness today of course is the esteemed chairman of they6yf the governments most experts on Broadband Internet access. Thank you for being here. Well hear from the chairman about the agency spectrum auction program. And any other topic that members su the subcommittee to like to talk to him about. L i hope today will address the critical need to expand hi this country. I think we continue to lag and i think by not making as many progress as we should were an getting further behind. Well discuss the agencys response to the ever growing demand for wireless services. Including the commissions decision with respect to c band. I think everybody in this room knows that a number of us, including me, have been pretty outspoken about the mid band spectrum. I believe from the beginning that we should have a public b. Auction as a transparent means to allocate the c band and as an assurance that luxenberg Satellite Companies, i have nothing against luxenberg, wonderful place, but as an assurance that luxenberg Satellite Companies and shareholders would not be the beneficiaries of what i think any fairminded person would consider to be a windfall that s should go to theed american peoe and im very pleased that the chairman and the commission ultimately announced their support for a public auction this year. Im not completely pleased. Im pleased with the public auction. But im not pleased with the ad parameters of the plan, as the chairman knows. I oppose the commissions proposal to provide 15 billion in various payments to the satellite operators. To makes sense to me as we ask the satellite operators to move, not to move to a new part of the spectrum, just to move within the spectrum, the c band, and tf allow us to use that portion of the c band that theyre not using. That seemed reasonable to me and it seemed reasonable to me thatt we should pay their moving expenses. But were paying them a lot more. Ould b about 9 billion in Walking Around money. D and that money could be used to expand broadband. It could be used to expand Rural Broadband. Ho students connect to the internet to complete homework. Or simply pay down our national debt. Let me say it again, were providing i think somewhere in a the neighborhood of 6 billion in moving expenses which seems fair to me. But the 9 billion to do something that they would have to do anyway and are required to do at the fcc tells me i think is a waste of taxpayer money. And ive authored a bill to address those concerns. Ommiss rather than work with congress on a solution, the commission decided to move forward and to make the deal with the Satellite Companies. The biggest of which promptly ae went into bankruptcy to try to provide leverage. I mean, these companies were e l willing to give up something iu they didnt own ines exchange f billions of dollars. I guess i shouldnt blame them e for not thumping a free melon and taking advantage of the offer. I blame us for not negotiating a better deal. So today well talk about that. Before introducing our witness i want to turn to my friend from delaware. Thank you, chairman kennedy, thank you for convening this hearing and welcome to chairman pai which i believe is your reirdrdthan hearing before the subcommittee and re welcome regular opportunities to detailed engagement and i want to commend you and your staff for making this hearing happen while taking appropriate e precautions to protect those ins attendance. We need to demonstrate our o commitment to thorough and vigorous over sight so i look forward to todays hearing. Leado senator kennedy youve been a leader on the c band issue. And strong advocate for public auction consistent with your role as a steward of federal dollars. Chairman pai, i look forward ton hearing whether there is anything we could do to help make certain this happens on time. I think we all share an understanding of how critical a successful and timely deployment of 5g is to our country. It should bring billions of dollars to the treasury and i would love to find a way to Work Together to have some of the proceeds go to expand broadband in rural and other underserved areas and i have a few ideas. Ussing im interested in also discussing today the implementation of the broadband data act. Ways to facilitate Online Learning during this coronavirus epidemic and figuring out how we can make progress on robocaller fine collection and repair and m replace funding. And last, chairman pai, i want to commend you for the emo in successfulcl implementation of e telehealth demo included in the c. A. R. E. S. Act. You noted in your prepared testimony that the quickly implemented program has made Funds Available to grantees across the country, not the least of which in the states of louisiana and delaware. So i commend you for theot wisd of your prior ortization. Rward with that, i look forward to mi todays hearing and appreciate do either of you are anything youd like to say . Okay. Chairman, why dont you stand and ill swear you in. Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but truth so help you god . I do. Chairman needs no introduction u. Hes been on fcc since may of 2012. The president designated him the chairman in january 2017. Hes a proud not current resident but at one point was a resident. He went to harvard undergrad, chicago law school. Wo extraordinary institutions. F generaco hes been an attorney at the justice department, the fcc office of General Council, Senate Judiciary committee. He was a partner at jenner and block. You were at a jenner at block. Wonderful law firm, has been for years before his confirmation at the fcc, and hes worked at Verizon Communications earlier in his distinguished career. Mr. Chairman, you honor us with your presence and the floor is yours. Thank you, chairman kenny for the kind words. It has been 8 years although at this point id measure my tenure in pounds and gray hair instead of time. I appear before you to today discuss the fccs Spectrum Program and update you on the work of the commission. When i last appeared before you on march 10th, immediately following that hearing as the chairman pointed out our country was disrupted drastically. Ever since the fcc has been deploying every resource at our disposal to deal with this unprecedented national emergency. For example, i challenge broadband and Telephone Service providers in early march to take what i call the keep americans connected pledge. A volunteer commitment to among other things not terminate service to any residential or Small Business customers because of their inability to pay their bills due to the disruptions caused by the coronavirus pandemic. Im proud of the fact over 780 broadband and Telephone Service providers across the country including all of our nations largest providers have taken that pledge. Moreover, many have gone above and beyond the pledge and have taken additional steps to maintain or expand connectivity during the pandemic. I also want to thank this subcommittee for helping to establish the covid19 Telehealth Program as a part of the cares act. By promoting were enabling many mere people to access care remotely. The commission establish ed the rules for the program in just days after passage of the act. Its now approved funding for 305 Health Care Providers in 42 states plus washington, d. C. For a total of almost 105 million in funding commitments including to louisiana and delaware as senator coons pointed out. In addition to his covid19 related work the commission has continued its ongoing efforts to close the Digital Divide and execute on the 5g fast plan. For instance, were on track to commencement an auction from 3. 7 to 3. 9 gigahertz. Beginning on december 8th. Announced earlier this month all eligible space station operators currently using the spectrum hae committed to an accelerated relocation, which means it willt become available for 5g in the r United States 2 to 5 years stas earlier than would have been thr case. Getting this essential spectrumt out into the marketplace years ahead of schedule will promote American Leadership in 5g. Even with all this progress the commission needs your help. For example, since our last hearing Congress Passed a securi and trusted communications act. This law ratifies the commissions proposal to propose small Rural Telecommunication Companies to end their reliance on manufacturers that pose National Security threats. Ission i strongly support the rip and replace requirements that congress mandated, but that mandate came without money. Last november we estimated that a fullscale rip and replace program could cost up to 2 billion and we ordered an Information Collection to nail down those costs for all covered carriers. Were working through the data s thats been collected but we also want to work with you to get the funds needed to reats. s implement this program and protect americas networks from National Security threats. Similarly Congress Passed recently the broadband data act which ratifies the commissions decision last august to require new granular broadband maps. Deployment maps. But that law prohibited us on relying on the Administrative Service company to implement that effort and the fcc simply does not have the 65 we need to implement. F finally i should note there is l one auction currently mandated by federal law we are not looking forward to holing. Specifically the spectrum map ow 2012 mandates we auction off e parts of the tband which is re currently used by Public Safety entities in several states. Our highly skilled economists believe this auction will raise less revenue. Of the because of the statutory mandato our staff has nonetheless had to divert resources for preparing for an auction to commence in february. By legislation Many Congress would repeal this and address sc 981 fee diversion and i hope h legislation passes as soon as possible. Chairman kennedy, Ranking Member coons, members of the subcommittee thank you once again for giving me this opportunity to testify. I look forward to answering your questions in the time to come. Et i thanks, mr. Chairman. Ill start. Ive got a few questions. My understanding is that your agreement with the foreign Satellite Companies is to provide 3 to 5 billion to relocate within the cband and 9. 7 billion well call it 10 billion to cooperate, ton move quicker. And you have suggested that that will save 2 to 4 years. Whats your basis for saying that . Thank you for the question, chairman. So without the accelerated relocation payments the deadline for moving into the upper portion of the cband and say relinquishing the its baseda on the assessment of staff, thai is the soonest that we could ise require those satellite operators wer partd portio i understand assessment of staff but what are they basing that on . Your agreement with the e compan Satellite Companies . The 2025 deadline youre asking about . No, you say by spending 10 billion were going to speed things up by two to four years and i dont understand why. Right. So theres certain steps the satellite operators would have to take in order to clear that spectrum quickly while improving the Important Service theyre providing. Theyve got to do that anyway. Im saying you say, okay, were giving them 5 billion to relocate, were paying the moving expenses. Were giving them 10 billion to relocate faster and its going to save us 2 to 4 years. Why . You have the Statutory Authority which congress has given you to tell them to move now. So, mr. Chairman, the accelerated relocation payments better align the satellite incentives with those that want the spectrum sooner so this allows them to move quicker. I ui huoi huoi huoi huoi hu6 would find that persuasive as well, but the fcc has taken the position we have to give this 10 billion because if we dont its going to prolong this 2 to 4 years and i dont understand why when ive read the statutes. They say very clearly that the fcc has the authority and the Public Interest to renegotiate any agreement it has. Im not sure that the Satellite Companies have a license, but im not sure what they have. They have a privilege, i think. But why do we have to give them 10 billion . Because mr. Chairman, ultimately those relocation payments put us all so o speak on same page. We want to get the spectrum out there for 5g. I know we do, mr. Chairman, but you said repeatedly ive giving them 10 billion of taxpayer money so theyll move faster and its going to save us two to four years. I dont understand why. I mean, one of the companies has already gone into bankruptcy. They say theyre going to use that to leverage you for more money. Senator, i cant speak for ha company but i will say ha company and others, all the Eligible Companies opted into the payments, which means were on track to get more 5g services quicker. Explain to me again. How do you know its accelera accelerating the payments . Or the accelerating the move . Its accelerating the move because now we have given the satellite operators obviously the funding they would need in order to clear that spectrum quicker no, thats separate. Youre giving them 5 billion for relocation expenses. 10 billion is extra. Correct. And that gives them a very strong incentive to meet that december 2021 deadline. Otherwise, that deadline could go on longer. It could take a longer period of time. Why . You have to authority to tell them to move . Well, smart smart, as we detailed, that particular payment framework gives them a much stronger incentive to move further. I know if gives them incentive. You just spent 10 billion of taxpayer money. I would have an incentive, too. But it seems to me if you have the unconditional authority to tell them to move anyway you dont have a basis for your claim that were saving two to four years here. The other point, mr. Chairman, if i might obviously clearing that two to four years earlier means the Wireless Companies will be more eager to bid at the auction. If youre bidding this year on something that may become free by december 205. Do you not have the authority, a. G. , to tell them to be out within two years . Ill have to check with the general counsel, but my understanding is that youre a good lawyer. You know you have that authority. Ill come back. Ive got more. Thaunk you, mr. Chairman. Do you have a good idea of how much money could be returned to the treasury after this particular auction and potentially incentive payments . How much might go to the treasury and am i right that all of those proceeds must go to the treasury. None can be used to address our underserved communities. The last question is yes. We are required to deposit auction proceeds into the treasury. As to the amount of those proceeds thats difficult to say. Theres been speculation this midband spectrum is so highly prized it could yield tens of billions in revenue. That could leave tens of billions of dollars for the treasury for the important purposes congress may see fit to spend it on. I think there are many worthy causes that could deserve Congress Attention in a bill. Would you or the commissioner support legislation that would direct legislation proceeds to addressing our unmet needs . Ive been on the record for over four years new saying i do support Congress Giving fcc the authority such as broadband, telehealth, closing some of those Digital Divide problems weve encountered. Have the foreign Satellite Companies agreed to waive their rights to take further legal action asserting legal right tuesday the spectrum . Theyve made the election to accept the relocation payments. The hitigation was not one of the conditions, but to my understanding almost all of the companies have not filed anything in the court of appeals. Because to me that was maybe i missed something here, that was the critical issue is were going to pay you billions of dollars, youre not going to sue us and youre going to move. Right. Because the only limitation on your Legal Authority to force them to move is their legal capacity to challenge it in court. Right. Certainly the small satellite operators which did not get any accelerated relocation payments from the fcc they filed a petition for review, but they were going to file no matter what. Our goal from the beginning was to align those satellite operator incentives with our own, and we believe weve done that and dramatically reduced the litigation. What happens to the accelerated relocation payments . Well, the accelerated relocation payments are not dependent on the small satellite oh, youre saying if the entire if they succeed in reversing your entire order now what happens . I would have to study the legal aspects of an injunction a little closer. I havent gone down that road in part because i believe the challenge weve received from those companies in court is substantially weak. These are not companies that use cband spectrum to deliver service in the United States. So just as a threshold matter as my lawyer had i dont believe theres irreparable harm here that could be approved to the satisfaction of the court. Thats the best argument i think youve got is were going to make these payments in order to make these lawsuits go away and thats how were able to move. Im unclear how these small satellite challenges might work. Let me just move for a minute if i might, mr. Chairman, to broad band mapping. Ot congress has prohibited you from using usf dollars to implement the broadband data act. Clear ho youve requested as you said in your testimony 65 million to implement the act. Absent that funding whats the fcc done to begin to implement the act with terms of drafting regulations . I know the data act was enacted after the president s last budget was submitted but im curious, too, why the president s budget didnt include a request for the 65 million and tell us how you know thats right amount and it doesnt need to be more or less. Sure, obviously when the fcc started its work in 2019 with the digital Data Collection that took a pause when the broadband data act was adopted for the reasons i expressed in my opening statement. With respect to the 65 million, the office of managing director and others on the fccs team, i understand, sat down with appropriations staff and did a crosswalk on how we arrived at that number. The implementation for the first year would be 65 million. Thered be additional cost beyond that time frame. To do the various i. T. And other back end work necessary we would need that funding. We dont have it currently and obviously congress has given us a strict budget for the particular fiscal year, so were essentially left with a mandate without any money to comply with that mandate. Understood. Ive got a number of additional questions. Look forward to an additional round. Let me follow up with senator coons commentary and question about broadband data act and need for appropriations. Mr. Chairman, ill continue to press for those resources to be provided to the fcc, but i want to know that you have a commitment you are making a commitment that we are going to move to a different set of data to make decisions on broadband deployment, recognizing if you have the resources theres a better route to get better information to make better decisions. Is that true . Slight, senator. We need much more granular Accurate Information about this. And im not sure i didnt hear you answer senator coons question, what are you doing today that when the dollars arrive were further along than we would otherwise we . Thank you prt for the question. There is rule making related work that we can and are, we can do and are doing. A lot of it is depending on the back end systems to create some i. T. Infrastructure to support that mapping and that is the kind of work where we really need to money to get the program up and sarting so when ever rule making work is done, technical, for lack of a better word, side, will be able to get stood up quickly, too. In response to the economic consequences of covid19 approximately 800 broadband providers participated in the fccs keep americans connected pledge in which they committed not to terminate service for households and Small Businesses. As congress focuses its attention on improving Broadband Connectivity particularly with the high demand during this pandemic, how should congress prioritize funding support for broadband providers that are already shouldering significant Financial Hardship due to signing the pledge and complying with the pledge . In other words, revenue is not coming in. I dont know whether you could tell me what the total costs to date have been in waived late fees and uncollected payments by participating providers, but is there a plan to reimburse them for their lost revenue . How do we compensate and make sure they stay in business . Very important questions, senator. And ive conversations with a number of companies individually and through their trade associations where ive heard especially for the smaller providers or the providers who serve rural or lower income populations that the pledge can be a hardship. And i would be happy to work with congress if theres a vehicle that could provide them funding to continue those connectivity commitments, which are of course incredibly important for their consumers at the end of the day. As to the amount necessary own appropriate vehicle i would defer to congress but wed be happy to vour experts on our teamwork with you to make sure connectivity is as seamless as it can be during this pandemic. So does the fcc not know how much lost income revenue payments whats been lost to providers as a result of those who are not paying their bills . We do not track the amount of accounts receivable, if you will, for any individual companies. We could see if theres any information publicly available, but we dont track that ourselves. And i suppose the expectation perhaps hope is a better word than expectation is, that people would then voluntarily pay those bills, those late fees when they were capable . Is that the original plan is that this is a pause but ultimately those companies that carriers and providers would be reimbursed or compensated for Services Provided . For that question wed defer to the particular companies. Our goal in the immediate emergency we adopted the pledge and again in may when we extended it was to make sure for the time being we put all of that on pause. And its going to be a conversation that has to happen within congress, of course, and the industry how to proceed after that. Mr. Chairman, i understand the importance of the cband spectrum being made available expeditiously and responsibly. And i understand that the conversation taking place here reflects the desire of you and the chairman of this committee. What is the outcome of expedition . What does americans get in the competitiveness and development of 5g . Tell us why this is worth it . Why does a couple of years matter . What do we get for that . Rd÷ a great question, senator. I think we get three things. Must remember one, we deliver 5g services to americans years before they could otherwise be delivered. Thats especially critical for things during the pandemic such as telehealth or other Remote Learning type activities. Thats going to be incredibly important in the time to come and americans would benefit from that sooner. Number two, and i would argue this is as important. American leadership main 5g. Over the weekend a story came out in the wall street journal how the chinese economy is leveraging all to spend money on technologies. They believe rightfully in my view that america derives significant benefits in being the first mover in 5g. If we delay cband for whoever many years, ha ultimately delays delivery of mid band spectrum that allows entrepreneurs to use that and that leads to the number three benefit, which is that an innovation economy continues to thrive on our shores. Capital is fickle, talent is fickle. The longer the fcc delays for innovators to use the more likely it is other countries and regions will seize that talent and capital for themselves. I dont want that to happen, and i dont think its just a wireless priority but a National Security priority for us to make that innovation continue to thrive in america. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Yes, sir, senator langford. Thanks for being here again and well continue to pummel you with questions but i want to back up to some Lessons Learned from covid19. Theres been a lot of waivers and work on the issue of telehealth and making sure that available and accelerating that process. What i want to know is what are the Lessons Learned, and what is needed longterm to make sure we maintain telehealth . Were still waiting to hear back and so i hope in time to give you some clarity how they use that funding and what benefits its provided. Already the cincinnati Childrens Hospital for instance has shown how theyve given young transplant patients connected devices to be monitored remotely so they dont have to come into the health nq going to use this funding to provide care for folks who cant come into the facility. And Going Forward i think one of the things that would be very helpful is of course to give more attention to this issue breaking down interstate licensing requirements that some states still have. Making sure a provider in kansas can provide patient care in oklahoma for instance. Making sure reimbursement is much more stream lined so the telehealth becomes more and theres other issues like that. The general problem i would see Going Forward is making sure we have broadband everywhere. Supporting the fccs efforts to get Rural Broadband everywhere would be critical. Let me drill down on this. The maps were wrong, they were proven to be wrong at the end of it. My question to you is those who put out false maps and false information, what consequences have come to them for putting out false information to your office and to us . A lot of rural carriers spent a lot of money being able to prove those maps are wrong. Those rural carriers will never be compensated for and i want to know are their consequences for other carriers who put out false maps . Going forward, what i can say is part of the reason we started the 5g fund, it was to focus on Wireless Technology of the future not to double down given behavior we saw in phase two. We have an open public dialogue to make sure rural parts of this country that are unlikely to get service from my major provider for 5g are not going to be left behind as we start to pursue cband and these other initiatives. Its important to me people not be left out as people in big cities start to take that for granted. Are you going to have consequences for giving false maps to you . There absolutely are consequences for violating those rules. Would dependent on the particular fact pattern. We just hadnt seen it yet. Again, i have nothing against those carriers other than they give us false information and theres a consequence for giving out false information. People were spending money to try to prove those maps wrong and it significantly delayed the rollout based on whats happening, so there are real life consequences on their actions and i want to make sure that does not happen again in the future, that entities know give Accurate Information when youre asked to give information. I share your frustration, senator. Other parts of i came out of the gate as chairman 2017 with a mobility fund, too, specifically because i recognized we needed to color in 4g for certain parts of the country. Its frustrating that three years later, were now essentially starting with a new program, 5 there is g fund, many r part because we did get that inAccurate Information. Its not acceptable to american taxpayers and not acceptable to me. No, its not. And for the rural areas in my state still waiting to get access to broadband its a real life consequence for them. Its obviously proven out in this time period where they would have either had something coming or something there in the days ahead. One more quick comment to you. Manage access for prisons. Its something you and have have talked about often, how to block contraband from prisons. What is process right now . Theres always something coming on horizon to be discussed and also something coming, but doesnt seem to come. Where are we . Due to in that regard i want to thank you first for flagging the report the commission was due to submit. We did submit that report. I hope you had a chance to see. We did. Thank you. I believe thest a promising opportunity. As i understand the technology could provide a solution consistent with current law that could be very useful. Unfortunately as i understand it the industry has not been as willing to implement that solution or consider implementing it, and so thats why as recently as yesterday the fcc was having conversations with them about the path forward. Im frustrated by situation, to be frank. I dont understand what obstacles remainin to getting other technologies implemented but were going to get to the bottom of that. Its my frustration as well and always seems to be under discussion and never something involved. We continue to have rapists contacting their victims through a cellphone they have in prison and tormenting victims and the Cellphone Companies seem to turn their head and say its no big deal. And at some point they need to wake up and note this is really big issue, they are responsible for continuing to allow that type of behavior to come out of a prison to victims until they actually step up and engage and try to help solve this rather than maintain it. I couldnt agree more, and i mind invite any of the folks skeptical about what you just said, go to jackson penitentiary. Ive been to these and have heard firsthand about what a serious threat it is. Its a Public Safety issue. Not just an arcane issue that affects the Geographic Scope of the facility. As you mentioned it affects witnesses and prosecutors and general public. I mean these devices in the hands of somebody who means ill could mean a significant problem for Public Safety and i think the Industry Needs to have a higher sense of priority for it. I do as well. Thank you. Senator bozeman. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thank you so much for being here. We do appreciate you and the rest of the commission and your hard work and youre right at the forefront right now. Its really interesting as i listen to the questions weve all got the same questions, which is good. One of the things that certainly thats come up in regards to telemedicine, youve already talked about that, but i just want to also mention how important i was on a phone call the other day and again dont quote me exactly what she made a statement wed gone from 10,000 a week telemedicines to over a million. So, you know, it is tremendous, increased volume and things. As a provider i understand how helpful that can be. Weve been able to beat down many of the obstacles now. Are you working with are you working with cms and things like is there a group thats trying to coordinate this with not only cms but then weve got the education component . Are we siloed or do we have a formal working group thats talking about how to get information out there . A great question, senator. Even before the pandemic we had been working with cms among others. In fact, i sat down with the administrator verma i would say two years ago, a year and a half ago on some of these very issues and that collaboration has only ranked up during the pandemic and weve established communication with department of education and other federal agencies to make sure were swimming in the same direction, and thats essential to make these solutions pop. Because the world is very different now than it was two years ago or however so. I would encourage some sort of a formal whatever that that simply has to be. Are we able to give our schools are you all collaborating in the sense of giving them good information if theyre lacking now what are some of the potential alternatives they could reach to . We are. Within the constraint of current law weve been working to change some of our rules to enable School Districts to get better access to technology. For example, waiving the gift rule which prohibits providers from offering and School Districts from accepting or soliciting wifi connected devices and hot spots and the like. One of the things we encourage as part of the cares act negotiation was the creation of a Remote Learning initiative. But a stream lined Education Initiative to do essentially the same thing. Outside of the constraints of current law weve also worked with the department of education. The cares act provided a total of 16 billion local School Districts will be able to use for ultimately among other things education. Regarding the rdof funds, what are some of the potential issues that could delay distribution . I think were on track right now. We just adopted auction procedures, time auction procedures which will help us move toward that 29th auction date. There are some who want to delay this auction for a while, and i understand the concern theyve raised about mapping. But if theres an area we know is unserved we shouldnt wait until we serve maps in different parts of the country. Those folks deserve opportunity and deserve it now especially in places like kansas. Tell me weve talked about this before the 6 gigahertz, the concern about interference with devices. Absolutely. Yong you were thinking about talking to d. O. E. Or things like that. Are we doing that . Are we alleviating some of the concern we have there could be harmful interference . I believe we have. The commission unanimously adopted a 6 gigahertz order which makes available that spectrum for unlicensed operations. And we did that in a way that protects clients. Indoors unlawful devices have to operate at a lower power level 5 db as opposed to 8 db. At outdoors they can operate at Standard Power but they have to use an automated frequency coordination mechanism. If theres an incumbent operation in a particular area this database will sense that and tell the unlicensed device you cant use the spectrum theres an incumbent here and look somewhere else to find that spectrum. Thats one of the critical ways our engineers came up with for threading that needle. So are we doing some testing to make sure its not just on paper but thats actually going to work that way . Absolutely. My understanding is that my staff and other stakeholders,lic treutility and others have been consistently comparing notes and doing testing to make sure. But were always open to getting new information from the field. Thank you very much. We do appreciate your good work. Thank you, senator. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Chairman pai, welcome. And i want to first of all thank you and the commission for the work youve done to allocate telehealth funds to hospitals around the country including in my state of maryland as well as other health care facilities. You broadly interpreted your authority to make that happen, correct . I think we fairly interpreted it but some might say broadly. All right. I think it was broadly, and what ive been discouraged about is youve not provided that same sort of liberal interpretation when it comes to providing Internet Services for students at home through the program. I think weve all seen that covid19 has exposed many disparities in our country including the deep Digital Divide as many more people have to work from home and conduct their business and other affairs from home. Access to the internet and high Speed Internet is essential. This was the case before covid19. St especially true now, and one of most harmful impacts here has been with respect to students. You would agree with that, right sm. Yes, sir. Right. Because we used e ed to call it homework gap. I used the proceeds for that purpose to help close homework gap and i think youve been supportive of that idea. Of course now, it goes beyond homework. Students are having to do more and more work from home online and we are try iing to put additional funds in next round of c. A. R. E. S. Response dedicated to that purpose. As you stated, there are funds that can be used for that purpose that we provided already. In the c. A. R. E. S. Act. They go to School Systems but School Systems have huge amount of demands on their resources right now. So the idea is to get dedicated funds in the next round that we could direct through the e rate program. For students. Would you support that . It depends on how its structured. When the act was being negotiated, we proposed an initiative outside of e rate. We proposed essentially a streamline process program for Remote Learning. We called it the Remote Learning initiative. If we had that now, similar to the Telehealth Program, we could get money out the door sooner to meet students needs. No, look, we want o structure this Going Forward in the best way possible. In the meantime, weve got the laws and regular lations on boo right . I know you relaxed your gift rule to allow schools to accept hot spots and devices from companies. Correct. As i look at the authority used for that, it seems to me you can use that same authority to allow e rate funds to be used to allow School Systems to purchase directly hot spots, quidevices and computers for r students who are disconnected and im baffled by why you havent used that flexibility to do so. Im just looking at the language here from the usac website, the universal Service Administration company. It says that quote, activities education of students. It seems to me at this particular time, when students are doing their work from home, that you could clearly allow e rate funds to be used for this purpose. Can you take a look at that . We always had the discretion to wave the rules but we cant wave a statute. Section 254 says that services to classrooms is what sec can support through the program. I agree you. Quarter century ago when this lichaj wanit was draft a rad, nobody conceived people would be learning out of a bricks and mortar facility. Were always happy to do that. Well i mean were working to amend it, but just to provide clarity to what i think you could already do if you interpreted your authorities within, within the context of the current emergency. So i hope we can have a discussion about your existing authority to use this because right now as we speak, before we do another round of legislation, which i hope will address h issthis issue, but right now, i believe youre not using your authorities fully for this purpose. So well follow up with you on this. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you, again, mr. Chairman, for being here. I know youre busy. I want to be, i want to follow up on senator langfords questions and i want to be sure i understand. We have inmates who were in prison for rape and they have cell phones. And many some instances, they are calling their rape victims and harassing them. And we know about it. Carriers e and the carriers involved are not shutting down these cell phones. Is that accurate . They havent been as i would say they are, have mott been as forward leaning on some of the Technological Solutions as they could be. How many carriers are not being forward leaning . Theres no specific number. The ones you would know. Names you would know. Which ones . I think all of major carriers weve been working with. At t, verizon, t mobile, us cellular. Why would you u not get them in, hold a hearing, and say p you dont stop this, were going to hit you so hard that google cant find you . Weve done that, senator. We actually held, i was the first chairman in history to convene a meeting of correctional officials theyre still tolerating it. I said it as i mentioned to senator langford, im very frustrated with where we are here and what i will say is if the carriers dont take action, i would expect we would move forward. I think were going to hold a hearing on that subject. I would certainly have the witnesses to send you. And get the carriers in and can visit with them. Let me jump gears here. Ive reviewed the transcript of your testimony at our prior h r hearings. You testified, did you not, that one of the reasons, indeed the main reason, that were giving 10 billion, not the 5 billion to relocate, but 10 billion to the foreign Satellite Companies, was to avoid litigation. Thats correct, isnt it . I dont have any reason to believe. You said it. Sure. Did i also understand that you just testified that you have reached an agreement with these foreign Satellite Companies in which taxpayers will give them 10 billion but you didnt ask them to wave any claims or causes of action they have . So electing these payments have not technically waived a right to litigation. They have forfeited it by agreeing to the election. What i understand is on the commissions order. So, have they waived it or not . Certainly r forfeited it by getting the payments. Can they come back later and sue . I dont know the law on that point. Were going to have another hearing. Get your General Council in here. I mean what would prohibit them from taking the 10 billion, cashing the check, or checks, and then suing . Well, number one, its in the terms of order. Number two, they only get the payments if they do requisite work for phase one and two. What would prevent them from taking the 10 billion and moving and then filing suit and say we had to go along because the fcc made us. But they were wrong and we want damages . Im not sure, i cant answer the legal hypothetical here. I want to get someone who can. Youve been sued any way, havent you . By small satellite operators, yes. What if they win . I dont believe they will. If you didnt believe they would win, then why did you give the other Satellite Companies 10 billion to avoid litigation . Thats an entirely separate class. Those are the folks necessary for the transition to be successful. They use the cband spectrum. Their work is essential to make it available for 5g. But the claims are still the same. By the Satellite Companies big or small. Their claim is that they have a property right and the fcc cant divest in. Isnt that true . But in this case, its very different because i dont believe small satellite operators are causing irreparable harm. What happens if they win . Thats again in response to senator coons. Id have to study what the injunction would be. I dont believe thats an eventuality were going to face. This makes no sense to me. Mr. Chairman. Ive never f i want to get your General Council in here and your lawyers in here. I never heard of giving somebody 10 billion to keep them from suing without them waiving the claims and causes of action. Last question. The foreign, in addition to the 10 billion, were giving foreign Satellite Companies 5 billion for relocation expenses. Theyre going to use some of that to buy satellites. Is that correct . Yes. They promise d to buy americn satellite, did they not . Several have announced they will buy but some are not buying american satellites. Is that correct . Im not aware of any announcements on that front so i can speak well, i can show you the muhnews articles. Did you put in your order before you give them the 5 billion . We dont have the Legal Authority to do that . Why not . Current law doesnt give us the ability to do that. Does it prob hibt you . We would have to have some sort of National Security justification. Some sort of evidence that doing so would present a National Security threat. I want to get your General Council in here and lets talk about that, too. Senator coons. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Speaking of National Security, on the repair and replace issue, investments to make sure that smaller Telecommunications Providers are able to remove and replace huawei and zte equipment in order to ensure the reliability of our system. The fcc said it cost 200 million to perform a rip and replace function and about a month ago, you received responses to a data request from all etcs and their affiliates. Has that information confirm ed your estimate or are you revising that . Appreciate the question, senator. We do, at this time, anticipate that phrase i used, up to 20 billion would still be required. But if for whatever reason, the evidence suggests otherwise, well let you know in either direction. Up or down. And the secure and trusted communications act, which authorized this work, but didnt fund it, would reimburse Telecom Providers with with fewer than 2 million customers to replace equipment. Do you believe reimbursement should be limited to the smaller carriers only . I would defer to congress on that point. I could see the argument either way that some providers, which might have more scale than that, would none the less face some financial challenges, but i can only see the other side of it. That you need to be as fiscally responsible as possible and that means you have to balance the availability of these funds versus the need for the particular carriers. So, i think 2 million is a pretty reasonable dividing line, but i could see the argument either way. Let me move to the robo call fine collection issue. The fcc unanimously proposed a 5 million fine against perpetrators of another robo calling scheme that was falsely Offering Health insurance plans. Doj hasnt actively pursue d collection of these fines, the wall street journal reported doj only collected 6,790 out of 2000 million. Why has there been just modest follow through and what might we pursue to help doj and fcc fix this problem . Senator, i cant speak for the department of justice, of course. I only have jurisdiction over our neck of the woods, but what i can say is that we have emphasized that number one, this is the secs top consumer protection. Tju qsqt and that we believe that instituted the appropriate collection action in a court of comp tant jurisdiction is vital to making sure consumers are protected. A deterrent only works if you apply the stick, so to speak, to make it real. In this case, the collection of that fine, the extraction of money from the wrong doers, is that stick. And some suggested because the perpetrators dont have meaningful assets in which to collect a judgment. Is there any evidence those large fines are terroring schemes or do we need to rethink how we poeenalize these . We have seen, over the last couple of months, a downturn in the overall number of calls. Whether thats attributable to the deterrent, but whattic say is that it does serve a useful function for us to be able to investigate and prominent cases, obstruct and fine some of those wrong doers. We have seen those mitigate r or o cease their activities and i would be remiss if i didnt point out its not just the wrong doers. Over the last couple of months, we have worked on gateway provide ers. Small companies in the u. S. , the first point of entry to scan robo calls. Over the last couple of month, weve sent a couple of letters to provide ers saying either yo stop these scammed robo calls being unleashed on American Consumers or you risk being cut off from american phone networks. Within 24 hours, all those providers cut off the calls. Thats a nonmonetary judgment. Doesnt require institution of litigation, but it gets real results for the American People who are going to look to broaden that in time to come. Thank you. Last question, if i might, mr. Chairman. During the pandemic, theres about 17 Million School age children who dont have access to the internet as home as we discussed. Even now as students are returning to the classroom, its unclear, uncertain, how many of them will be able to go back to school full time. How many may need to continue to access schooling from home. Senator markey led a bill the Emergency Communications act, im a cosponsor. Included 1. 5 billion to provide funds to connect students in low income families to the internet. The house authorized 5 billion overall. The markey bill calls for 4 billion. Do you have a sense of what it would actually cost to connect every American School child to the internet effectively . Thats a great question, senator. Its difficult to say because the needs might differ from district to district. Might be a wifi hot spot, a tablet. Might be both. Might be many other things. So it really depends on each local School Districts saszment assessment of need. Other than ore it rate my commitment to working with you to make sure we close that gap as best we can. I want to work with you u to figure out the section 254 issue and whether r or not youve got regulatory flexibility x you need statutory change. For too long, theres been a dinlg cal divide. Were in a context now where the country is particularly focused on which the that further divided access to opportunity in this country. We should be provideing the resources to close that gap. Thank you. Senator dans then moran. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And thank you, chairman pai, for being here today. I frewly want thank you for all the work youre Blood Pressure doing to expand broad band access to get spectrum up to market and to balance the needs and priorities of the Different Industries and groups you oversee. This is sometimes difficult, but i think youve been doing a great job. Thanks. Thank you, sir. The covid19 pandemic has demonstrated a huge need for te telehealth and gaps as well. Both physically in our able toy connect and in our laws that support Telehealth Programs. I think there are some places we can improve. No doubt weve made progress. Here are some thoughts. I think we should make permanent the telehealth laws we recently passed, including the connect pr health act, and others that help expand access to telehealth. I think we need to make adoption easier and the broad band to make telehealth available pr rural montanans. One study showed that medicare patients using telehealth has increased 11,718 in just last month and a half. Many montanans in the most rural places can now access a doctor safely and effectively by just using the phone in their pocket. But we need to make sure that we have the funding, the right regulations and better tools in place for that to work and to make it sustain aable. Chairman, i know youve been busy recently, so could you update me on the actions the fcc has take ben to expand telehealth in places like montana . Appreciate the question and for your leadership and belief in the power of telehealth. The cares act passed on a thursday. The president signed it on friday. The following monday, i propose ed a concrete plan for taking the funding and establishing the program. The Commission Adopted it on tuesday and now, couple of months later, weve approved ten rounds of funding. Of applications. Have distributed approximately 105 million to almost 41 states i believe it is, plus the district of columbia. And its incredible the range of applications weve been seeing. Everything from things you might expect. The standard remote diagnosis or treatment of some of the chronic conditions weve always seen, but also some unexpected places. Mental health has been a particularly important vector as People Struggle with isolation and the pandemic. The same thing for children who are other vulnerable populations. Enabling them to get care outside of a bricks and mortar facility has been incredibly important. As we emerge from this, i hope we make permanent or at least consider doing so, a lot of the forward thinking steps that you have led on. Its now telehealths chance to shine. We need to make it the norm rather than the exception. Couldnt agree more, mr. Chairman. With we dont expand broad band access, much of the benefits will be lost in places like rural montana. Over the last couple of years, with my strong support, weve increased federal investment through fcc in our u. S. Programs. We also need to be looking at ways to increase deployment by decreasing some of those barriers. Ive led on the effort on this dig once legislation. And currently working on a bill to speed up the approval process for federal right aways. What else can congress do to reduce barriers so broad band providers can more easily connect montanans . Great question. I think some involves the nittygritty work it take to build a broad band network. Four years ago i proposed Congress Give the authority to. We dont currently have that. Similarly, supporting some of our efforts to end fcc requirements to maintain fading copper infrastructure so those funds can be b devoted to fiber. Those are some common steps we can take and from a funding perspective, working to support the rural dinlg Opportunity Fund which will support people in montana who dont have broad band at all. That will be a critical thing in making sure people get on right side of the Digital Divide. Thank you. Many april, the fcc released a staff report detailing the state eligibility of 5g funds. It showed that 89 of montanas physical land mass and 33 of montanas population would be eligible. Its a big state. Fourth largest in the nation with few people so its important we look at both the actual area covered as well as population. We dont want carriers just putting up a 5g tower many each of our big cities then calling it a day. Could you update me on fund in the findings of f the staff report . Good question. The sec did adopt a rule making on the 5g fund and what were seeing comment on now is the right way to proceed. Should we proceed based on some of the information we have, which would mean an auction to 5g funding in 2021 or wait for the more granular maps in 2023. Were currently having a public conversation about that. I do believe its very important to make sure these rule areas get some sort soof service. Theres a divide that could emerge if you have folks in montana, huge land mass, small population, that are never going to present an easy Business Case for deployment and thats part of the reason why when i introduced fund, i specifically wanted earmark for example 1 billion for deployments that would support precision agriculture. You might be the only person in several acres in your area, but you really need 5g to do the semitic range of data that allows your combine to run. What we need to recognize. I appreciate the fact you grew up in kansas. And with your appreciation for rural america. That brings your own experience, brings a lot for you in this job and i want to thank you for that. Thank you, senator. Senator moran, one of his greatest attributes, the place of his birth and growth. Chairman pai, i want to follow up once again on senator coons questions. I seem today to be taking his lead, but i want to indicate that the secured and trusted Communications Network program, the rip and replace program, remains a high priority of mine as we aim to remove Network Elements that are deemed post security security risks and replace them with alternative equipment. Youve visited with senator coons about the 2 billion and its adequacy. Im also interested in addition to the answer to that question in identifying an appropriate role for congress to support softwarebased Technology Solutions in open Radio Access Network equipment. How can congress support development of this type of Innovative Technology without inappropriately tipping the scales with for one form of technology over another . Thats a great question, senator. The fcc was poised when the pandemic hit to hold a forum on this very topic on march 26the and we had to postpone it for obvious reasons, but youve put your finger on one of the critical issues, which is how do we ensure that we promote the Network Architecture of the future, much more likely to be secure, much more likely to be Cost Effective and much more likely to be functional . That virtualization is where we think things are going to some extent, and i think theres an Important Role for congress here. One role, of course, so to have hearings, of course. The standard congressional functions to shine a light on some of the issues. Its not going to be a flash code, of course. That means we need to have an open conversation about how we go from where we are now with a relatively consolidated full stack hardware marketplace to the more diverse hardware and softwarebased 5g architecture of the future. I think hearings and the like are very important. In terms of funding, thats an area id have to think very hard about the way forward. Traditionally we have relied on the marketplace to encourage that kind of innovation, but thats something that congress the other thing i would say is simply to support the fccs efforts in this regard to try to figure out to learn more about these vendors, so ive had a chance to meet with many of them. If it would be of interest, we could certainly pass along the names and contact info of some of those folks. Theyre doing some really innovative things. Many of them are based right here in the u. S. And wed like to help you learn about them, too. Id appreciate that information. Chairman kennedy, let me complement you. A long time ago when i came to the senate, the First Leadership role i played was as the Ranking Member of this subcommittee before becoming its chairman. In the previous years to my being a Ranking Member, the fcc had not been an agency in front of the subcommittee in 20 or 30 years. Really . Other agencies were more i dont know, higher priority in the hearing process. Its one of the things i encourage the fcc, Important Agency to the country, but certainly an Important Agency to kansas. Ill tell you youve taken the Oversight Authority of the appropriations process to new levels, and im anxious to fulfill my responsibilities and my subcommittee to the extent that youre doing so here. And so i do think that Congress Needs to reassert its role in many ways, and appropriations is one of the means by which were capable of doing that. Oversight is hugely important. And im pleased to be part of that effort to try to make sure that congress on behalf of the american taxpayer has its role fulfilled. Thank you. Thank you, senator. The chief pie may feel differently about this project. I hit the jackpot, as far as im concerned. All right. Good answer. The senior senator and former governor of the great state of west virginia. Thank you. Those were the good old days. Chairman pie, you know ive had many discussions. I want to get a clear reading on whats going out here. First of all, we had 4 billion that was supposed to go out for the Rural Broadband and thats been held up because of the mapping. We contested the mapping, as you know. Rural america, rural appalachia, especially, is going to be left behind, and the greatest need we have is broadband right now. So there was 4 billion there and now thats up to 9 billion, i understand. Thats part of the 5g fund. That is what the fccs looking at. You had another 20 billion for hard wire. Exactly. And all this is supposed to go out by november . No. Thats only for the rural digital Opportunity Fund. The first phase of rdof which is the overall 20 billion program, 16 billion for unsurveyed areas starting with reverse auction on october 29th. Okay. We keep having this discussion about mapping. We know the maps arent accurate. Were relying on the carriers right now and the carriers are basically showing broad areas of coverage that they dont have. And weve proven that. And i would encourage any of my any of my colleagues here to do your own and encourage your constituents to do their own test. You will find out how starkly that they are misinformed on that and basically in error. So they could be left behind. Areas that really need it showing theyre already covered are not going to have many dedicated to them. You said it was 65 million you needed in order to correct this or do the mapping. How much would it take for the mobile broadband mapping provisions, mobile . Talking about 65 million on the well, the 65 million would be just for the startup in the first year. Of the broadband data act requirements. And so that would only cover that first year to get the program up and running. Mmhmm. But how about if we are doing the funding what do you think needs implemented for just the mobile broadband mapping provisions . I dont know i cant recall off the top of my head if there is a breakout how much mobile alone. The two have been intertwined. In fact, the fixed side of it is further along than the mobile side. Solving one problem would help us solve the other. So youre saying basically none of the money that you have available now can be used for this . We do not have the funds, no. Thats why we flagged last fall and again earlier this year that this was an unfunded mandate. And not only that, it predicted us going to usac to do this work. Im just saying if you have 9 billion basically in the 5g fund and 20 billion in the hard wire fund, almost 30 billion we cant get 6 million to get the maps correct . Were talking about the appropriate funding for the i. T. And the back end work, the employees and the like. Thats the kind of funding we need. Not the money going out the door to the company. Have you requested that . Oh, yes, many, many times. Uhhuh. Including before the passage of the broadband data act. What did you expect basically lets say we have another c. A. R. E. S. Package, c. A. R. E. S. Ii, and im understanding the white house is talking about 1 trillion as far as infrastructure. If we cant get this out the door, how are we going to how would we sit here and basically appropriate any more money or thinking we could disperse that . Ill defer to you on that. Ill simply say without the money we cant move ahead on this mandate. And i wish it were otherwise. Youve gone to the finance committee on this . No, not to finance, but weve gone to commerce and appropriations among others. We flagged this issue a while back. Chairman, the only thing i can tell you is my state is hurting tremendously. As far as you want to know why economic recovery is not happening the way it should, is that we couldnt even do telehealth. In about 30 or 40 of our state. We had to start basically using audio health. And reimbursing our doctors on audio health because there was no telehealth available. Thats how critical it is now. And its a shame. And something has to be done. If we can do something through the subcommittee, basically, and the money thats needed and transferring or moving money around to get the proper mapping, i think should be the highest priority we have. Thank you. Thank you, senator. I only have a couple more, mr. Chairman. I want to thank you again, you and your fellow commissioners for agreeing to do a public auction on the cban. If you back out the 5 billion that were paying for relocation expenses excuse me and the 10 billion that were paying on top of that, how much do you think taxpayers will net from the licensing of the cband . Difficult to say. Weve heard estimates as high as 50 billion for the overall auction once its said and done. Would that be net . Thats my understanding net i guess 50 minus 15, so 35 would be the net in that situation. Can that money be used for excuse me, for broadband . Absolutely, senator. It could be. With legislation. We are, as senator coons question illuminated, were required to put in the treasury, but if you change that law then that can be devoted to that purpose. Okay. Now, the original proposal by the the foreign Satellite Companies, which formed an alliance called the cband alliance, was to seek permission Satellite Companies, to keep the proceeds of the is that correct . A private sale in which, yeah, they would handle that process. And it was clear to me at one point the fcc was inclined to go along with it, is that accurate . No, not from my perspective. I never said anything publicly one way or the other well, you may not have, but i believe let me just state as a matter of fact that a fact of my belief. I think the fcc was this close to doing it. But you didnt. And i thank you for that. As a result, and some fcc commissioners made public statements saying were going to do this. And by this i mean the private auction. As a result, one of the foreign Satellite Companies i think it would be accurate to call it the lead dog. Intel sat. Its stock went through the roof. I mean, it went through the roof. And im happy for them. On november the 5th, 2019, the ceo of intel sat met with one of your senior lawyers. December 5th, 2019. According to a lawsuit, later that day, two of the biggest intel sat shareholders sold 246 million of their own stock. Shortly thereafter, the fcc announced that it was going to conduct a public auction, not a broadband not a private auction. ge and the price of intel sats stock dropped more than 75 . From, like, 25 bucks to 6 bucks. What happened in that meeting at the fcc on november 5th . Im informed that the company was very keen to get a sense from the fcc as to which direction it was heading, private sale, public auction, something else, and the fcc, my the staffer you mentioned as well as another staffer declined to state a position one way or the other. And that was it. They did not give any forecasts as to where the fcc was heading. Mmhmm. Okay. Are those two staffers still working for the fcc . They are, yes. Okay. With great distinguiction, i would add. Okay. I think id like to ask them to come and let us talk about what happened in that meeting. Something happened in that meeting. Im not saying what it is. But when you meet with a ceo and the ceo and then the two biggest shareholders of the company of the ceo sell a massive amount of their stock, maybe its just a coincidence. Im not saying it is or it isnt. But a massive lawsuit has been filed. And id like to know more about what happened. In that meeting. Senator coons . No further questions, mr. Chairman. Okay. I want to give you a breather, mr. Chairman, because i know how busy you are, but at some point i would like to ask you and your colleagues to come back and lets talk about the prison cell phones and what we can do about it. Lets talk about the issue raised by senator manchin and others, and if you wouldnt mind making available your lawyers who were in that meeting, we can probably all do this in one meeting, one hearing. And, again, i want to thank you for your leadership, and i mean that. Youre a very talented individual and were lucky to have you in government. If there are no further questions, andy says i have to read this. The hearing record will remain open until next tuesday for subcommittee members to submit any statements or questions to the witnesses for the record. The subcommittee stands in recess, subject to the call of the chair. Thanks again. Arararararararararu id shake your hand, if i could. We can do the fist bump. Are you sticking around . No, no, i got to go. We turn now to anita kumar, the White House Correspondent for politico. Joining us by phone this morning. Anita kumar, good morning to you. Give us some background on where this order cam