Now, tonights program is unlike any other president ial debate in history were making history now and its pretty exciting. An independent polling firm has selected an audience of 209 uncommitted voters from this area. The candidates will be asked questions by these voters on a topic of their choosing anything they want to ask about. My job as moderator is to, you know, take care of the questioning, ask questions myself, if i think there needs to be continuity and balance, and sometimes i might ask the candidates to respond to what another candidate may have said. Now, the format has been agreed to by representatives of both the republican and democratic campaigns. And there is no subject matter that is restricted anything goes, we can ask anything. After the debate, the candidates will have an opportunity to make a closing statement. So, president bush, i think you said it earlier, lets get it on. Pres. Bush lets go. Ms. Simpson and i think the first question is over here. Yes, id like to direct my question to mr. Perot. What will you do as president to open foreign markets to fair competition from american business, and to stop unfair competition here at home from Foreign Countries so that we can bring jobs back to the United States . Mr. Perot thats right at the top of my agenda. Weve shipped millions of jobs overseas and we have a strange situation because we have a process in washington where after youve served for a while, you cash in and become a foreign lobbyist, make 30,000 a month, then take a leave, work on president ial campaigns, make sure you got good contacts, and then go back out. Now if you just want to get down to brass tacks, the first thing you ought to do is get all these folks whove got these oneway trade agreements that weve negotiated over the years and say, fellows, well take the same deal we gave you. And theyll gridlock right at that point because, for example, weve got International Competitors who simply could not unload their cars off the ships if they had to comply you see, if it was a twoway street just couldnt do it. We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. To those of you in the audience who are business people, Pretty Simple if youre paying 12, 13, 14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory south of the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor, hire young lets assume youve been in business for a long time and youve got a mature work force pay a dollar an hour for your labor, have no health care thats the most expensive single element in making a car have no environmental controls, no pollution controls, and no retirement, and you dont care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south. So we if the people send me to washington, the first thing ill do is study that 2,000page agreement and make sure its a twoway street. One last part here i decided i was dumb and didnt understand it, so i called the whos who of the folks whove been around it and i said, why wont everybody go south . They say, itd be disruptive. I said, for how long . I finally got them up from 12 to 15 years. And i said, well, how does it stop being disruptive . And that is when their jobs come up from a dollar an hour to six dollars an hour, and ours go down to six dollars an hour, and then its leveled again. But in the meantime, youve wrecked the country with these kinds of deals. Weve got to cut it out. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. I see that the president has stood up, so he must have something to say about this. Pres. Bush well, carole, the thing that saved us in this Global Economic slowdown is in our exports. And what im trying to do is increase our exports. And if, indeed, all the jobs were going to move south because of lower wages, there are lower wages now and they havent done that. And so i have just negotiated with the president of mexico the north American Free trade agreement, and the Prime Minister of canada, i might add, and im i want to have more of these free trade agreements. Because export jobs are increasing far faster than any jobs that may have moved overseas. Thats a scare tactic because its not that many. But anyone thats here, we want to have more jobs here and the way to do that is to increase our exports. Some believe in protection. I dont. I believe in free and fair trade and thats the thing that saved us, and so i will keep on as president trying to get a successful conclusion to the gatt round, the big uruguay round of trade which will really open up markets for our for our agriculture particularly i want to continue to work after we get this nafta agreement this coming year. I want to get one with eastern europe. I want to get one with chile and free and fair trade is the answer, not protection. And as i say, weve had tough Economic Times and its exports that have saved us. Exports that have built. Ms. Simpson governor clinton . Gov. Clinton id like to answer the question because ive actually been a governor for 12 years so ive known a lot of people whove lost their jobs because of jobs moving overseas and i know a lot of people whose plants have been strengthened by increasing exports. The trick is to expand our export base and to expand trade on terms that are fair to us. It is true that our exports to mexico, for example, have gone up and our trade deficits gone down. Its also true that just today, a recordhigh trade deficit was announced with japan. So what is the answer . Let me just mention three things very quickly. Number one, make sure that other countries are as open to our markets as our markets are to them and if theyre not, have measures on the books that dont take forever and a day to implement. Number two, change the tax code. There are more deductions in the tax code for shutting plants down and moving overseas than there are for modernizing plant and equipment here. Our competitors dont do that. Emphasize and subsidize modernizing plant and equipment here, not moving plants overseas. Number three, stop the federal Governments Program that now gives lowinterest loans and job training funds to companies that will actually shut down and move to other countries but we wont do the same thing for plants that stay here. So more trade, but on fairer terms and favor investment in america. Ms. Simpson thank you. I think we have a question over here. This is for governor clinton. In the real world, that is outside of washington, d. C. , compensation and achievement are based on goals defined and achieved. The deficit is my my question is about the deficit. Would you define in specific dollar goals how much you would reduce the deficit in each of the four years of a Clinton Administration and then enter into a legally binding contract with the American People that if you did not achieve those goals, that you would not seek a second term . Answer yes or no and then comment on your answer, please. Gov. Clinton no, and heres why. And ill tell you exactly why. Because the deficit now has been building up for 12 years. Ill tell you exactly what i think can be done. I think we can bring it down by 50 in four years and grow the economy. Now, i could get rid of it in four years in theory on the books now, but to do it, youd have to raise taxes too much and cut benefits too much to people who need them. And it would even make the economy worse. Mr. Perot will tell you, for example, that the expert he hired to analyze his plan said that it will bring the deficit down in five years, but it will make unemployment bad for four more years. So my view is, sir, you have to increase investment, grow the economy, and reduce the deficit by Controlling Health care costs, prudent reductions in defense, cuts in domestic programs, and asking the wealthiest americans and Foreign Corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and investing in growing this economy. I asked everybody to look at my economic ideas and nine nobel Prize Winners and over 500 economists and hundreds of business people, including a lot of republicans, said this is the way you got to go. If you dont grow the economy , you cant get it done. But i cant foresee all the things that will happen and i dont think a president should be judged solely on the deficit. Let me also say, were having an election today. Youll have a shot at me in four years and you can vote me right out if you think ive done a lousy job. And i would welcome you to do that. Ms. Simpson mr. President . Pres. Bush well, i, i got to im a little confused here because i dont see how you can grow the deficit down by raising peoples taxes. You see, i dont think the American People are taxed too little. I think theyre taxed too much. I went for one tax increase. And when i make a mistake, i admit it. Said that wasnt the right thing to do. Governor clintons program wants to tax more and spend more. 150 billion in new taxes. Spend another 220. I dont believe thats the way to do it. Heres some things thatll help. Give us a balanced Budget Amendment. He always talks about arkansas having a balanced budget and they do. But he has a balanced Budget Amendment have to do it. Id like the government to have that. And i think it would discipline not only the congress, which needs it, but also the executive branch. Id like to have what 43 governors have the line item veto, so if the congress cant cut, weve got a reckless spending congress, let the president have a shot at it by wiping out things that are pork barrel or something of that nature. Id like to i proposed another one. Some sophisticates think it may be a little gimmicky. I think its good. Its a checkoff. It says to you as a taxpayer say youre going to pay a tax of a thousand bucks or something. You can check 10 of that, if you want to, in one box and that 10 , 100 or if youre paying 10,000, or whatever it is, a thousand dollars check it off and make the government make it lower the deficit by that amount. And if the Congress Wont do it if they cant get together and negotiate how to do that then youd have a sequester across the board. Youd exempt Social Security i dont want to tax or touch Social Security. Im the president that said hey, dont mess with Social Security. And we havent. So i believe we need to control the growth of mandatory spending back to this gentlemans question. Thats the main growing thing in the budget. The whole the program that the president twothirds of the budget, i, as president , never get to look at, never get to touch. Weve got to control that growth to inflation and population increase. But not raise taxes on the American People now. I just dont believe that would stimulate any kind of growth at all. Ms. Simpson how about you, mr. Perot . Mr. Perot well, were 4 trillion in debt. Were going into debt an additional 1 billion a little more than a billion dollars every working day of the year. Now the thing i love about it im just a businessman. I was down in texas taking care of business, tending to my family. This situation got so bad that i decided id better get into it. The American People asked me to get into it. But i just find it fascinating that while we sit here tonight, we will go into debt an additional 50 billion 50 Million Dollars in an hour and a half. Now, its not the republicans fault, of course. And its not the democrats fault. And what im looking for is who did it . Now, theyre the two folks involved, so maybe if you put them together, they did it. Now, the facts are we have to fix it. We are leaving im here tonight for these young people up there in the balcony from this college. When i was a young man, when i got out of the navy, i had multiple job offers. Young people with high grades cant get a job. People the 18 to 24yearold High School Graduates 10 years ago were making more than they are now. In other words, we were down to 18 of them were making ah, of the 18 to 24yearolds were making less than 12,000. Now thats up to 40 . And whats happened in the meantime, the dollars gone through the floor. Now whose fault is that . Not the democrats, not the republicans. Somewhere out there, theres an extraterrestrial thats doing this to us, i guess. And everybody says they take responsibility. Somebody somewhere has to take responsibility for this. Put it to you bluntly, American People. If you want me to be your president , were going to face our problems, well deal with the problems, well solve our problems. Well pay down our debt. Well pass on the American Dream to our children, and i will not leave our children a situation that they have today. When i was a boy, it took two generations to double the standard of living. Today, it will take 12 generations. Our children will not see the American Dream because of this debt that somebody somewhere dropped on us. Ms. Simpson youre all wonderful speakers and i know you have lots more to add, but ive talked to this audience and they have lots of questions on other topics. Can we move to another topic, please . We have one up here, i think. Yes, id like to address all the candidates with this question. The amount of time the candidates have spent on this campaign trashing their opponents character and their programs is depressingly large. Why cant your discussions and proposals reflect the genuine complexity and the difficulty of the issues to try to build a consensus around the best aspects of all proposals . Ms. Simpson who wants to take that one . [laughter] ms. Simpson mr. Perot, you have an answer for everything, dont you . Go right ahead, sir. Mr. Perot no, no i dont have an answer for everything. Why . As you all know, ive been buying 30 minutes segments to talk about issues. And tomorrow night, on nbc, from 10 30 to 11 00, eastern were going to talk about how you pay the debt down, so were going to come right down to that one. See, well be on again saturday night, 8 00 to 9 00 on abc, so [laughter] ms. Simpson ok, ok. [laughter] mr. Perot i couldnt agree with you more. Couldnt agree with you more. And i have said again and again and again, lets get off of this, lets get off personalities and lets talk about jobs, health care, crime, the things that concern the American People. Im spending my money, not pac money, not foreign money, my money, to take this message to the people. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. So that seems directed, he would say its you gentlemen who have been doing that. Mr. Clinton, governor clinton, how do you or president bush, how would you like to respond . Pres. Bush well, in the first place, i believe that character is a part of being president. I think you have to look at it. I think that has to be a part of of a candidate for president , or being president. In terms of programs, ive submitted, what, four different budgets to the United States congress . In great detail, theyre so heavy, theyd give you, you know, a broken back. And everything in there says what i am for. Now ive come out with a new agenda for americas renewal, a plan that i believe really will help stimulate the growth of this economy. My record on World Affairs is pretty well known because ive been president for four years. So i feel ive been talking issues. You know, nobody likes likes who shot john . But i think the first negative campaign run in this election was by governor clinton. And im not going to sit there and be a punching bag. Im going to stand up and say, hey, listen, heres my side of it. But character is an important part of the equation. The other night, governor clinton raised i dont know if you saw the debate the other night . Suffered through that . [laughter] pres. Bush well, he raised the question of my father. It was a good line, well rehearsed and well delivered. But he raised the question of my father and said, well, your father, prescott bush, was against mccarthy. You should be ashamed of yourself. Mccarthyism. I remember something my dad told me. I was 18 years old, going to penn station to go into the navy and he said, write your mother which i faithfully did he said, serve your country my father was an honor, duty, and country man and he said, tell the truth. And ive tried to do that in public life, all through it. And that says something about character. My argument with governor clinton you can call it mud wrestling, but i think its fair to put it in focus is i am deeply troubled by someone who demonstrates and organizes demonstration in a foreign land when his countrys at war. Probably a lot of kids here disagree with me, but thats what i feel. Thats what i feel passionately about. Im thinking of ross perots running mate sitting in the jail. How would he feel about it . But maybe thats generational, i dont know. But the big argument i have with the governor on this is this taking different positions on different issues, trying to be one thing to one person here thats opposing the nafta agreement and then for it what we call waffling. And i do think that you cant turn the white house into the waffle house, youve got to say what youre for and youve got to ms. Simpson mr. President , im getting time cues and, with all due respect, im sorry. President bush excuse me, i dont want to i dont want to, no go ahead carole. I get wound up. Ms. Simpson yes, you do. [laughter] gov. Clinton let me say, first of all, to you that i believe so strongly in the question you ask that i suggested this format tonight. I started doing these formats a year ago in new hampshire. And i found that we had huge crowds because all i did was let people ask questions and i tried to give very specific answers. I also had a Program Starting last year. Ive been disturbed by the tone and the tenor of this campaign. Thank goodness the networks have a fact check so i dont have to just go blue in the face anymore. Mr. Bush said once again tonight i was going to have a 150 billion tax increase. When mr. Quayle said that all the networks said, thats not true. Hes got over 100 billion of tax cuts and incentives. So im not going to take up your time tonight. But let me just say this. Well have a debate in four days and we can talk about this character thing again. But the Washington Post ran a long editorial today saying they couldnt believe mr. Bush was making character an issue and they said he was the greatest quote political chameleon for changing his positions of all times. Now i dont want to get into it pres. Bush please dont judge me by the Washington Post. Gov. Clinton lets dont lets dont you dont have to believe that. I heres my point. Im not interested in his character. I want to change the character of the presidency. And im interested in what we can trust him to do and what you can trust me to do and what you can trust mr. Perot to do for the next four years. So i think youre right and i hope the rest of the night belongs to you. Ms. Simpson may i i talked to this audience before you gentlemen came and i asked them about how they felt about the tenor of the campaign. Would you like to let them know what you thought about that when i said, are you pleased with how the campaigns been going . Who wants to say why you dont like the way the campaign is going . We have a gentleman back here. If i may, and forgive the notes here, but im shy on camera. The focus of my work as domestic mediator is meeting the needs of the children that i work with by way of their parents, and not the wants of their parents. And i ask the three of you, how can we as symbolically the children of the future president , expect the two of you, the three of you, to meet our needs, the needs in housing and, and, and in crime and, you name it, as opposed to the wants of your political spin doctrism, and your Political Parties . Ms. Simpson so your question is can we focus on the issues and not the personalities and the mud . I think there is, there is a need, if we can take a poll here, with the folks from gallup perhaps, i think there is a real need here to focus at this point on the needs. Ms. Simpson how do you respond . How do you gentlemen respond to gov. Clinton i agree with him. Ms. Simpson president bush . Pres. Bush lets do it. Lets talk about programs for children. One other thing . Pres. Bush yes . Could we cross our hearts it sounds silly here, but could we make a commitment . You know, were not under oath at this point, but could you make a commitment to the citizens of the United States to meet our needs, and we have many, and not yours . Again, i have to repeat that, its a real need, i think, that we all have. Pres. Bush it depends on how you define it. I mean i i think, in general, lets talk about these lets talk about these issues, lets talk about the programs, but in the presidency, a lot goes into it. Caring is goes into it, thats not particularly specific. Strength goes into it, thats not specific. Standing up against aggression, thats not specific in terms of a program. This is what a president has to do. So i, in principle, ill take your point and think we ought to discuss child care or whatever else it is. Ms. Simpson and you two . Gov. Clinton ross had his hand up. Ms. Simpson yes, ross. Mr. Perot no hedges, no ifs, ands, and buts. Ill take the pledge. Because i know the American People want to talk about issues and not tabloid journalism. So ill take the pledge and well stay on the issues. Now, just for the record, i dont have any spin doctors. I dont have any speech writers. Probably shows. [laughter] mr. Perot i make those charts you see on television. [laughter] mr. Perot but you dont have to wonder if its me talking. What you see is what you get. And if you dont like it, you got two other choices, right . Gov. Clinton now wait a minute. I want to say just one thing, now, ross, in fairness. The ideas i express are mine. Ive worked on these things for 12 years and im the only person up here who hasnt been part of washington in any way for the last 20 years. So i dont want the implication to be that somehow everything we say is just cooked up and put in our head by somebody else. I worked 12 years very hard as a governor on the real problems of real people. Im just as sick as you are by having to wake up and figure out how to defend myself every day. Mr. Perot i got gov. Clinton i never thought id ever be involved in anything like this. Mr. Perot may i finish . Ms. Simpson yes, you may finish. Mr. Perot very briefly . Ms. Simpson yes. Very briefly. Mr. Perot i dont have any foreign money in my campaign. I dont have any foreign lobbyist on leave in my campaign. I dont have any pac money in my campaign. I got five and a half hardworking people who put me on the ballot. And i belong to them. Ms. Simpson o. K. Mr. Perot and they want or are interested in what youre interested in. I take the pledge ive already taken the pledge on cutting the deficit in half. I never got to say that. Its a great young group. Lead or leave. College students. Young people who dont want us to spend their money. I took the pledge wed cut it out. Ms. Simpson thank you. We have a question here. Yes, i would like to get a response from all three gentlemen, and the question is what are your plans to improve the physical infrastructure of our nation, which includes the water system, the sewer system, our transportation systems, etc. Thank you. Ms. Simpson the cities, whos going to fix the cities and how . Pres. Bush be glad to take a shot at it. Ms. Simpson please. Pres. Bush im not sure that and i can understand if you havent seen this, because theres been a lot of hue and cry we passed, this year, the most farthestlooking transportation bill in the history of this country, since eisenhower started the interstate highways, 150 billion for improving the infrastructure. That happened when i was president and so im very proud of the way that came about and i think its a very, very good beginning. Like mr. Perot, im concerned about the deficits, and 150 billion is a lot of money, but its awful hard to say were going to go out and spend more money when were trying to get the deficit down. But i would cite that as a major accomplishment. We hear all the negatives. When youre president you expect this, everybodys running against the incumbent, they can do better, everyone knows that. But heres something that we can take great pride in because it really does get to what youre talking about. Our home initiative, our Home Ownership initiative hope itll pass the congress is a good start for having people own their own homes instead of living in these deadly tenements. Our enterprise zones that we hear a lot of lip service about in congress would bring jobs into the inner city. Theres a good program and i need the help of everybody across this country to get it passed in a substantial way by the congress. When we went out to South Central in los angeles some of you may remember the riots there i went out there, i went to a boys club and every one of them the boys club leaders, the ministers, all of them were saying, pass enterprise zones. We go back to washington and its very difficult to get it through the congress. But theres going to be a new congress. No one likes gridlock, theres going to be a new congress because the old one i dont want to get this man mad at me , but there was a post Office Scandal and a banking scandal. Youre going to have a lot of new members of congress and then you can sit down and say, help me do what we should for the cities, help me pass these programs. Ms. Simpson mr. President , arent you threatening to veto the bill, the urban aid bill that included enterprise zones . Pres. Bush sure, but the problem is you get so many things included in a great big bill that you have to look at the overall good. Thats the problem with our system. If you had a lineitem veto, you could knock out the pork, you could knock out the tax increases, and you could do what the people want and that is create enterprise zones. Ms. Simpson governor clinton, youre chomping at the bit. Gov. Clinton that bill pays for these urban enterprise zones by asking the wealthiest americans to pay a little more, and thats why he wants to veto it. Just like he vetoed an earlier bill this year this is not mudslinging, this is factslinging. A bill early this year, this is fact, that would have given investment tax credits and other incentives to reinvest in our cities, our country, but it asked the wealthiest americans to pay a little more. Mr. Perot wants to do the same thing. I agree with him. I mean, we agree with that. Let me tell you specifically what my plan does. My plan would dedicate 20 billion a year in each of the next four years for investment in new transportation, communications, environmental cleanup, and new technologies for the 21st century and we would target it especially in areas that have been either depressed or which have lost a lot of defenserelated jobs. There are 200,000 people in california, for example, whove lost their defenserelated jobs. They ought to be engaged in making highspeed rail. They ought to be engaged in breaking ground in other technologies, doing waste recycling, clean water technology, and things of that kind. We can create millions of jobs in these new technologies more than were going to lose in defense if we target it, but were investing a much smaller percentage of our income in the things you just asked about than all of our major competitors and our wealth growth is going down as a result of this, making the country poorer, which is why i answered the gentleman the way i did before. We have to both bring down the deficit and get our economy going through these kinds of investments in order to get the kind of wealth and jobs and incomes we need in america. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, what about your plans for the cities . You want to tackle the economy and the Deficit First mr. Perot first, youve got to have money to pay for these things. So, youve got to create jobs. There are all kinds of ways to create jobs in the inner city. Now, im not a politician, but i think i could go to washington in a week and get Everybody Holding hands and get this bill signed, because i talked to the Democratic Leaders and they want it, i talked to Republican Leaders and they want it, but since they are bred from childhood to fight with one another rather than get results you know, i would be glad to drop out and spend a little time and see if we couldnt build some bridges. Now, results is what count. The president cant Order Congress around. Congress cant order the president around. Thats not bad for a guy thats never been there, right . But you have to Work Together. Now, i have talked to the chairmen of the committees that want this. Theyre democrats. The president wants it, but we cant get it, because we sit here in gridlock because its a campaign year. We didnt fund a lot of other things this year, like the savings and loan mess. Thats another story were getting to pay a big price right after the election. The facts are, though the facts are the American People are hurting. These people are hurting in the inner cities. Were shipping the lowpaying jobs quote lowpaying jobs overseas. What are lowpaying jobs . Textiles, shoes, things like that that we say are yesterdays industries. Theyre tomorrows industries in the inner cities. Let me say, in my case, if im out of work, ill cut grass tomorrow to take care of my family. Ill be happy to make shoes, ill be happy to make clothing, ill make sausage. You just give me a job. Put those jobs in the inner cities instead of doing diplomatic deals and shipping them to china where prison labor does the work. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, everybody thought you won the first debate, because you were plainspeaking and you made it sound oh so simple well just do it. What makes you think that youre going to be able to get the democrats and republicans together any better than these guys . Mr. Perot if you asked me if i could fly a fighter plane or launch or be an astronaut, i cant. I spent my life creating jobs its something i know how to do. And, very simply in the inner city, theyre starved. See, Small Business is the way to jumpstart the inner city, not ms. Simpson are you answering my question . Mr. Perot you want jobs in the inner city . Do you want jobs in the inner city, is that your question . Ms. Simpson no, i want you to tell me how youre going to be able to get the republicans and democrats in congress mr. Perot oh, im sorry. Ms. Simpson to Work Together better than these two gentlemen. Mr. Perot well, ive listened to both sides and if they would talk to one another instead of throwing rocks, i think we could get a lot done. And among other things, i would say, o. K. , over here in this senate committee, to the chairman who is anxious to get this bill passed the president is anxious id say, rather than just yelling at one another, why dont we find out where were apart, try to get together, get the bill passed, and give the people the benefits and not play Party Politics right now . And i think the press would follow that so closely that probably they would get it done. Thats the way i would do it. I doubt if theyll give me the chance, but i will drop everything and go work on it. Ms. Simpson ok. I have a question here. My question was originally for governor clinton, but i think i would welcome a response from all three candidates. As you are aware, crime is rampant in our cities. And in the richmond area, and im sure its happening elsewhere, 12 year olds are carrying guns to school. And im sure when our Founding Fathers wrote the constitution, they did not mean for the right to bear arms to apply to 12yearolds. So im asking where do you stand on gun control and what do you plan to do about it . Ms. Simpson governor clinton . Gov. Clinton i support the right to keep and bear arms. I live in a state where over half the adults have hunting or fishing licenses or both. But i believe we have to have some way of checking handguns before theyre sold to check the criminal history, the Mental Health history, and the age of people who are buying them. Therefore, i support the brady bill, which would impose a national waiting period unless and until a state did what only virginia has done now, which is to automate its records. Once you automate your records, then you dont have to have a waiting period. But at least you can check. I also think we should have, frankly, restrictions on assault weapons whose only purpose it to kill. We need to give the police a fighting chance in our urban areas where the gangs are building up. The third thing i would say doesnt bear directly on gun control, but its very important. We need more police on the street. There is a crime bill which would put more police on the street, which was killed for this session by a filibuster in the senate, mostly by republican senators. And i think its a shame it didnt pass. I think it should be made the law, but it had the brady bill in it the waiting period. I also believe that we should offer College Scholarships to people who will agree to work them off as Police Officers and i think as we reduce our military forces, we should let people earn military retirement by coming out and working as Police Officers. There 30 years ago, there were three Police Officers on the street for every crime. Today, there are three crimes for every police officer. In the communities which have had real success putting Police Officers near schools where kids carry weapons, to get the weapons out of the schools, or on the same blocks, youve seen crime go down. In houston, theres been a 15 drop in the crime rate in the last year because of the work the mayor did there in increasing the police force. So i know it can work. Ive seen it happen. Ms. Simpson thank you. President bush . Pres. Bush i think you put your finger on a major problem. I talk about strengthening the American Family and its very hard to strengthen the family if people are scared to walk down to the corner store and, you know, send their kid down to get a loaf of bread, its very hard. I have been fighting for very strong anticrime legislation. Habeus corpus reform, so you dont have these endless appeals, so when somebody gets sentenced, hey, this is for real. Ive been fighting for changes in the exclusionary rule so if an honest cop stops somebody and makes a technical mistake, the criminal doesnt doesnt go away. Ill probably get into a fight in this room with some, but i happen to think that we need stronger death penalties for those that kill Police Officers. Virginias on the lead in this, as governor clinton properly said, on this Identification System for firearms. I am not for National Registration of firearms. Some of the states that have the toughest antigun laws have the highest levels of crime. I am for the right, as the governor says, im a sportsman and i dont think you ought to eliminate all kinds of weapons. But my i was not for the bill that he was talking about because it was not tough enough on the criminal. Ive very pleased that the fraternal order of police in little rock, arkansas endorsed me because i think they see im trying to strengthen the anticrime legislation. Weve got more money going out for local police than than any previous administration. So, weve got to get it under control and there is one last thing point id make. Drugs. We have got to win our National Strategy against drugs, the fight against drugs. And were making some progress. Doing a little better on interdiction, were not doing as well amongst the amongst the the people that get to be habitual drug users. The good news is, and i think its true in richmond, teenage use is down of cocaine substantially, 60 in the last couple of years. So were making progress, but until we get that one done, were not going to solve the neighborhood crime problem. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, there are young black males in america dying at unprecedented rates. Mr. Perot id just like to comment on this. Ms. Simpson yes, im going to mr. Perot oh, youre going to elaborate, o. K. Ms. Simpson yes, excuse me. The fact that homicide is the leading cause of death among young black males 15 to 24 years old. What are you going to do to get the guns off the street . Mr. Perot on any program, and this includes crime, youll find we have all kinds of great plans lying around that never get enacted into law and implemented. I dont care what it is competitiveness, health care, crime, you name it the brady bill, i agree that its a tentative step in the right direction, but it wont fix it. So why pass a law that wont fix it . Now, what it really boils down to is can you live we have become so preoccupied with the rights of the criminal that weve forgotten the rights of the innocent. And in our country, we have evolved to a point where weve put millions of innocent people in jail because you go to the poor neighborhoods and they put bars on their windows and bars on their doors and put themselves in jail to protect the things that they acquired legitimately. Thats where we are. We have got to become more concerned about people who play by the rules and get the balance we require. This is going to take first building a consensus in grassroots america. Right from the bottom up, the American People have got to say they want it. And at that point, we can pick from a variety of plans and develop new plans, and the way you get things done is bury yourselves in a room with one another, put together the best program, take it to the American People, use the electronic town hall the kind of thing youre doing here tonight build a consensus, and then do it and then go on to the next one. But dont just sit here slowdancing for four years doing nothing. Ms. Simpson thank you, thank you, mr. Perot. We have a question up here . Please state your position on term limits, and if you are in favor of them, how will you get them enacted . Pres. Bush any order . Ill be glad to respond. Thank you. Pres. Bush i strongly support term limits for members of the United States congress. I believe it would return the government closer to the people, in a way that ross perot is talking about. The president s terms are limited to two a total of eight years. Whats wrong with limiting the terms of members of congress to 12 . Congress has gotten kind of institutionalized. For 38 years, one party has controlled the house of representatives and the result, a sorry Little Post Office that cant you know, cant do anything right and a bank that has more overdrafts than all the chase bank and citibank put together. Weve got to do something about it and i think you get a certain arrogance bureaucratic arrogance if people stay there too long. And so i favor strongly favor term limits. And how to get them passed . Send us some people thatll pass the idea. And i think you will, i think the American People want it now. Every place i go, i talk about it and i think they want it done. Actually, youd have to have some amendments to the constitution because of the way the constitution reads. Ms. Simpson thank you. Governor clinton . Gov. Clinton i know theyre popular, but im against them. Ill tell you why. I believe, number one, it would pose a real problem for a lot of smaller states in the congress, would have enough trouble now making sure their interests are heard. Number two, i think it would increase the influence of unelected Staff Members in the congress who have too much influence already. I want to cut the size of the congressional staffs, but i think youre going to have too much influence there with people who were never elected who have lots of expertise. Number three, if the people really have a mind to change, they can. Youre going to have 120 to 150 new members of congress. Now let me tell you what i favor instead i favor strict controls on how much you can spend running for congress. Strict limits on Political Action committees. Requirements that people running for congress appear in open public debates, like were doing now. If you did that, you could take away the incumbents advantage because challengers like me would have a chance to run against incumbents like him for house races and senate races, and then the voters could make up their own minds without being subject to an unfair fight. So, thats how i feel about it. I think if we have the right kind of campaign reform, wed get the changes you want. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, would you like to address term limitations . Mr. Perot yes. Let me do it, first, on a personal level. If the American People send me up to do this job, i intend to be there one term. I do not intend to spend one minute of one day thinking about reelection. And as a matter of principle, and my situation is unique and i understand it, i would take absolutely no compensation. Id go as their servant. Now, i have set as strong an example as i can and at that point, when we sit down over at capitol hill, tomorrow night, im going to be talking about government reform. Its a long subject. You wouldnt let me finish tonight. You want to hear it, you can get it tomorrow night. But, the point is youll hear it tomorrow night. But, we have got to reform government. If you put term limits in, and dont reform government, you wont get the benefits you thought. It takes both. So, we need to do the reform and the term limits and after we reform it, it wont be a lifetime career opportunity. Good people will go serve and then go back to their homes. And not become foreign lobbyists and cash in at 30,000 a month and then take time off to run some president s campaign. This, theyre all nice people, theyre just in a bad system. I dont there are any villains but, boy, is the system rotten. Ms. Simpson thank you very much. We have a question over here. Id like to ask governor clinton, do you attribute the rising cost of health care to the medical profession itself or do you think the problem lies elsewhere, and what specific proposals do you have to tackle this problem . Gov. Clinton ive had more people talk to me about their health care problems, i guess, than anything else. All across america, you know, people that lost their jobs, lost their businesses, had to give up their jobs because of sick children. So, let me try to answer you in this way. Lets start with a premise. We spend 30 , more of our income than any nation on earth, on health care. And yet we insure fewer people. We have 35 Million People without any insurance at all. I see them all the time. A hundred thousand americans a month have lost their Health Insurance just in the last four years. So if you analyze where were out of line with other countries, you come up with the following conclusions. Number one, we spend at least 60 billion a year on insurance, administrative costs, bureaucracy, and government regulation that wouldnt be spent in any other nation. So we have to have, in my judgment, a drastic simplification of the basic Health Insurance policies of this country. Be very comprehensive for everybody. Employers would cover their employees. Government would cover the unemployed. Number two, i think you have to take on specifically the Insurance Companies and require them to make some significant change in the way they rate people into Big Community pools. I think you have to tell the pharmaceutical companies they cant keep raising drug prices at three times the rate of inflation. I think you have to take on medical fraud. I think you have to help doctors stop practicing defensive medicine. Ive recommended that our doctors be given a set of National Practice guidelines and that if they follow those guidelines, that raises the presumption that they didnt do anything wrong. I think you have to have a system of primary and preventive clinics in our inner cities and our rural areas so people can have access to health care. The key is to control the cost and maintain the quality. To do that, you need a system of managed competition where all of us are covered in big groups and we can choose our doctors and our hospitals across a wide range, but there is an incentive to control costs and i think there has to be i think mr. Perot and i agree on this there has to be a National Commission of Health Care Providers and Health Care Consumers that set ceilings to keep health costs in line with inflation plus population growth. Now let me say, some people say we cant do this, but hawaii does it. They cover 98 of their people and their insurance premiums are much cheaper than the rest of america. And so does rochester, new york. They now have a plan to cover everybody and their premiums are twothirds of the rest of the country. This is very important. Its a big human problem and a devastating economic problem for america. And im going to send a plan to do this within the first hundred days of my presidency. Its terribly important. Ms. Simpson thank you. Sorry to cut you short, but president bush, health care reform. Pres. Bush can i i just have to say something. I dont want to stampede ross was very articulate across the country. I dont want anybody to stampede to cut the president s salary off altogether. Barbaras sitting over here and i i [laughter] but what i have proposed, 10 cut, downsize the government and we can get that done. She asked the question, i think, is whether the Health Care Profession was to blame. Number one thing to blame is these malpractice lawsuits. They are breaking the system. It costs 20 billion to 25 billion a year and i want to see those outrageous claims capped. Doctors dont dare to deliver babies sometimes because theyre afraid that somebodys going to sue them. People dont dare medical practitioners to help somebody along the highway that are hurt, because theyre afraid that some lawyers going to come along and get a big lawsuit. So you cant blame the practitioners for the health problem. And my program is this keep the government as far out of it as possible, make insurance available to the poorest of the poor through vouchers, next range in the income bracket through through tax credits, and get on about the business of pooling insurance. A great big company can buy ross got a goodsize company, been very successful. He can buy insurance cheaper than mom and pop store on the corner. But if those mom and pop stores all get together and pool, they too can bring the cost of insurance down. So, i want to keep the quality of health care that means keep government out of it. I want to do i dont like this idea of these boards. It all sounds to me like youre going to have some government setting price. I want competition and i want to pool the insurance and take care of it that way. And have heres another point. I think medical care should go with the person. If you leave a business, i think your insurance should go with you to some other business. You shouldnt be worrying if you get a new job as to whether thats going to and part of our plan is to make it what they call portable. A big word, but that means, if youre working for the jones company, you go to the smith company, your insurance goes with you. And i think its a good program. Im really excited about getting it done, too. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot . Mr. Perot we have the most expensive Healthcare System in the world. 12 of our Gross National product goes to health care. Our industrial competitors who are beating us in competition spend less and have Better Health care. Japan spends a little over 6 of its Gross National product, germany spends 8 . Its fascinating. You bought a frontrow box seat and youre not happy with your health care, and youre saying weve got bad health care but very Expensive Health care. Folks, heres why. Go home and look in the mirror. You own this country, but you have no voice in it the way its organized now. And if you want to have a highrisk experience comparable to bungee jumping, go into congress some time when theyre working on this kind of legislation, when the lobbyists are running up and down the halls. Wear your safetytoe shoes when you go. And as a private citizen, believe me, you are looked on as a major nuisance. The facts are, you now have a government that comes at you and youre supposed to have a government that comes from you. Now, there are all kinds of good ideas, brilliant ideas, terrific ideas on health care. None of them ever get implemented because let me give you an example. A senator runs every six years, hes got to raise 20,000 bucks a week to have enough money to run. Whos he going to listen to, us . Or the folks running up and down the aisles with money the lobbyists, the pac money. He listens to them. Who do they represent . The healthcare industry. Not us. Now, youve got to have a government that comes from you again. Youve got to reassert your ownership in this country and youve got to completely reform our government, and at that point, theyll just be like apples falling out of a tree the programs will be good because the elected officials will be listening to i said the other night i was all ears and i would listen to any good and i would listen to any good idea. I think we ought to do Plastic Surgery on all of these guys so that they are all ears, too, and listen to you. Then you get what you want, and shouldnt you . You pay for it, why shouldnt you get what you want as opposed to what some lobbyist who cuts a deal, writes the little piece in the law, and it goes through. Thats the way the games played now. You change it or you are going to be unhappy. Ms. Simpson thank you. Governor clinton, you wanted one brief point gov. Clinton one brief point. We have elections so people can make decisions about this. The point i want to make to you is a Bipartisan Commission reviewed my plan and the bush plan and concluded there were as many republicans as Democratic Health care experts on it they concluded that my play would cover everybody and his would leave two 27 million behind by the year 2000. And that my plan, in the next 12 years, would save 2. 2 trillion in public and private money to reinvest in this economy. And the average family would save 1,200 a year under the plan that i offered without any erosion in the quality of health care. So i ask you to look at that. And you have to vote for somebody with a plan. Thats what you have elections for. If people say, well, he got elected to do this and then the congress says, o. K. , im doing to do it thats what the election was about. Ms. Simpson brief, governor clinton, thank you. We have a question right here. Yes. How has the National Debt personally affected each of your lives . And if it hasnt, how can you honestly find a cure for the economic problems of the Common People if you have no experience in whats ailing them . Mr. Perot may i ms. Simpson well, mr. Perot, of course. Mr. Perot who do you want to start with . Ms. Simpson go right ahead. Mr. Perot each of you it caused me to disrupt my private life and my business to get involved in this activity. Thats how much i care about it. And believe me, if you knew my family and if you knew the private life i have, you would agree in a minute that thats a whole lot more fun than getting involved in politics. But i became i have lived the American Dream. I came from a very modest background, nobodys been luckier than ive been. All the way across the spectrum and the greatest riches of all are my wife and children. Just as its true of any family. But, i want all the children i want these young people up here to be able to start with nothing but an idea, like i did, and build a business. But theyve got to have a strong basic economy. And if youre in debt, youre its like having a ball and chain around you. Im doing i just figure as lucky as ive been, i owe it to them. And i owe it to the future generations. And on a very personal basis, i owe it to my children and grandchildren. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. Mr. President . Pres. Bush well, i think the National Debt affects everybody. Obviously it has a lot to do with Interest Rates. It has shes saying you personally. On a personal basis, how has it affected you has it affected you personally . Pres. Bush well, im sure it has. I love my grandchildren and i want to think that how . Pres. Bush i want to think that theyre going to be able to afford an education. I think that thats an important part of being a parent. I if the question if youre maybe i get it wrong. Are you suggesting that if somebody has means that the National Debt doesnt affect them . Well, what im saying pres. Bush im not sure i get it. Help me with the question and ill try to answer it. Well, ive had friends that have been laid off from jobs. I know people who cannot afford to pay the mortgage on their homes, their car payment. I have personal problems with the National Debt. But how has it affected you . And if you have no experience in it, how can you help us if you dont know what were feeling . Ms. Simpson i think she means more the recession, the economic problems today the country faces rather than the deficit. Pres. Bush well, you ought to you ought to be in the white house for a day and hear what i hear and see what i see and read the mail i read and touch the people that i touch from time to time. I was in the lomax a. M. E. Church. Its a black church just outside of washington, d. C. And i read in the in the bulletin about teenage pregnancies, about the difficulty that families are having to meet ends to make ends meet. I talk to parents. I mean, youve got to care. Everybody cares if people arent doing well. But i dont think i dont think its fair to say, you havent had cancer, therefore you dont know what its like. I dont think its fair to say, you know, whatever it is, that if you havent been hit by it personally but everybodys affected by the debt because of the tremendous interest that goes into paying on that debt, everythings more expensive. Everything comes out of your pocket and my pocket. So its, its sad, but i think in terms of the recession, of course you feel it when youre president of the United States. And thats why im trying to do something about it by stimulating the exports, investing more, better Education System. Thank you. Im glad to clarify it. Ms. Simpson governor clinton . Gov. Clinton tell me how its affecting you again . You know people whove lost their jobs and lost their homes. Well, yeah, uhhuh. Gov. Clinton well, ive been governor of a small state for 12 years. Ill tell you how its affected me. Every year, congress and the president sign laws that makes us make us do more things and gives us less money to do it with. I see people in my state, middleclass people, their taxes have gone up in washington and their services have gone down while the wealthy have gotten tax cuts. I have seen whats happened in this last four years when, in my state, when people lose their jobs, theres a good chance ill know them by their names. When a factory closes, i know the people who ran it. When the businesses go bankrupt, i know them. And ive been out here for 13 months meeting in meetings just like this ever since october with people like you all over america, people that have lost their jobs, lost their livelihood, lost their Health Insurance. What i want you to understand is the National Debt is not the only cause of that. It is because america has not invested in its people. It is because we have not grown. It is because weve had 12 years of trickledown economics. Weve gone from first to 12th in the world in wages. Weve had four years were weve produced no privatesector jobs. Most people are working harder for less money than they were making 10 years ago. It is because we are in the grip of a failed economic theory. And this decision youre about to make better be about what kind of economic theory you want. Not just people saying i want to go fix it, but what are we going to do. What i think we have to do is invest in american jobs, American Education, control American Health care costs, and bring the American People together again. Ms. Simpson thank you, governor clinton. We are a little more than half way through this program, and im glad that were getting the diversity of questions that we are, and i dont want to forget these folks in the wings over here. So lets go over here. Do you have a question . My name is dan smith. I work in the financial field counseling retirees, and im particularly concerned about three major areas. One is the Social Security administration where trust fund is projected to be insolvent by the year 2036, and we funded the trust fund with i. O. U. s in the form of treasury bonds. The Pension Guarantee Fund, which backs up our private retirement plans for retirees, is projected to be bankrupt by the year 2026, not to mention the cutbacks by private companies, and medicare is projected to be bankrupt, maybe as soon as 1997. And i would like from each of you a specific response as to what you intend to do for retirees relative to these issues. Not generalities, but specifics, because i think theyre very disturbing issues. Ms. Simpson president bush, may we start with you . Pres. Bush well, the Social Security youre an expert, and i can, im sure, learn from you the details of the Pension Guarantee Fund and the Social Security fund. The Social Security system was fixed about five years and i think its projected out to be sound beyond that. So at least we have time to work with it. But on all these things, a sound economy is the only way to get it going. Growth in the economy is going to add to these add to the overall prosperity and wealth. I cant give you a specific answer on Pension Guarantee Funds, all i know is that we have Firm Government credit to guarantee the pensions, and that is very important. But its its the full faith and credit of the United States in space in spite of our difficulties is still pretty good. Its still the most respected credit. So i would simply say, as these dates get close, youre going to have to reorganize and refix, as we did with the Social Security fund. And i think thats the only answer. The most more immediate answer is to do what this lady was suggesting we do, and that is to get this deficit down and get on without adding to the woes and then restructure. One thing ive called for that has been stymied and ill keep on working for it is a whole financial reform legislation. It is absolutely essential in terms of bringing our Banking System and Credit System into the new age instead of having it living back in the dark ages. And its a big fight and i dont want to give my friend ross another shot at me here, but i am fighting with the congress to get this through. And you cant just go up and say, im going to fix it. Youve got some pretty strongwilled guys up there that argue with you. But thats what the elections about. I agree with the governor. Thats what the election is about. And sound fiscal policy is the best answer, i think, to the all the three problems you mentioned. Ms. Simpson thank you. Mr. Perot . Mr. Perot yes, on the broad issue here. When youre trying to solve a problem, you get the best plans. You have a raging debate about those plans. Then, out of that debate, with leadership, comes consensus. Then, if the plans are huge and complex, like health care, i would urge you to implement Pilot Programs. Like the old carpenter who says measure twice and cut once. Lets make sure this things as good as we all think it is at the end of the meeting. Then, finally, our government passes laws and freezes the plan in concrete. Anybody thats ever built a successful business will tell you, you optimize, optimize, optimize after you put something into effect. The reason medicare and medicaid are a mess is we froze them. Everybody knows how to fix them. There are people all over the federal government, if they could just touch it with a screwdriver, could fix it. Now back over here. See, weve got a 4 trillion debt and only in america would you have 2. 8 trillion of it or 70 of it, financed five years or less. Now thats another thing for you think about when you go home tonight. You dont finance longterm debt with shortterm money. Why did our government do it . To get the Interest Rates down. 1 increase in the Interest Rates and that 2. 8 trillion is 28 billion a year. Now, when you look at what germany pays for money and what we dont pay for money, you realize its quite a spread, right . And you realize this is a temporary thing and theres going to be another sucking sound that runs our deficit through the roof. You know, and everybodys ducking it, so im going to say it, that we are not letting that surplus stay in the bank. We are not investing that surplus like a pension fund. We are spending that surplus to make the deficit look smaller to you than it really is. Now thats put you in jail in Corporate America if you kept books that way, but in government, its just kind of the way things are. Thats because it comes at you not from you. Now then, that money needs to be they dont even pay interest on it, they just write a note for the interest. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, can you wrap it up . Mr. Perot so now then, thats important. See, do you want to fix the problem or sound bite it . I understand the importance of time but see heres how we get to this mess were in. This is just 1 of 1,000 ms. Simpson but weve got to be fair. Mr. Perot now then, to nail it, theres one way out. A growing expanding job base, a growing expanding job base to generate the funds and the tax revenues to pay off the mess and rebuild america. We got a double hit. If were 4 trillion down, we should have everything perfect, but we dont. Weve got to pay it off and build money to renew it spend money to renew it, and thats going to take a growing expanding job base. That is priority 1 in this country. Put everybody thats breathing to work. And id love to be out of workers and have to import them like some of our International Competitors. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, im sorry, im going to mr. Perot sorry. Ms. Simpson and i dont want to soundbite you but we are trying to be fair mr. Perot okay. Ms. Simpson to everyone. Mr. Perot absolutely. I apologize. Ms. Simpson all right. Governor clinton. Gov. Clinton i think i remember the question. [laughter] let me say first of all, i want to answer your specific question but first of all, we all agree that there should be a growing economy. What you have to decide is whos got the best economic plan. And we all have ideas out there, and mr. Bush has a record. So i dont want you to read my lips and i sure dont want you to read his. I do hope you will read our plans. Now, specifically, one, on medicare, it is not true that everyone knows how to fix it. There are different ideas the bush plan, the perot plan, the clinton we have different ideas. I am convinced, having studied health care for a year hard and talking to hundreds and hundreds of people all across america, that you cannot control the cost of medicare until you control the cost of private health care and Public Health care, with managed competition, ceiling on cost, and radical reorganization of the insurance markets. Youve got to do that. We have got to get those costs down. Number with regard to social two, security, that program a lot of you may not know this it produces a 70 billion surplus a year. Social security is in surplus 70 billion. Six increases in the payroll tax that means people with incomes of 51,000 a year or less pay a disproportionally high share of the federal tax burden, which is why i want some middleclass tax relief. What do we have to do . By the time the century turns, we have got to have our deficit under control, we have to work out so that surplus is building up so when the baby boomers like me retire, were okay. Number 3, on the pension funds, i dont know as much about it, but i will say this. What i would do is to bring in the pension experts of the country, take a look at it, and strengthen the pension requirements further, because its not just enough to have the guarantee. We had a guarantee on the s ls, right . We had a guarantee and what happened . You picked up a 500billion bill because of the dumb way the federal government deregulated it. So i think we are going to have to change and strengthen the pension requirements on private retirement plans. Ms. Simpson thank you. I think we have a question here on international affairs, hopefully. Weve come to a position where were in the new world order, and id like to know what the candidates feel our position is in this new world order, and what our responsibilities are as a superpower . Ms. Simpson mr. President. Pres. Bush well, we have come to that position. Since i became president , 43, 44 countries have gone democratic, no longer totalitarian, no longer living under dictatorship or communist rule. This is exciting. This is new world order to me means freedom and democracy. I think we will have a continuing responsibility, as the only remaining superpower, to stay involved. If we pull back in some isolation and say we dont have to do our share, or more than our share, anymore, i believe you are going to just ask for conflagration that well get involved in the future. In in the future. Nato, for example, has kept the peace for many, many years, and i want to see us keep fully staffed in nato so well continue to guarantee the peace in europe. But the exciting thing is, the fear of nuclear war is down. And you hear all the bad stuff thats happened on my watch. I hope people will recognize that this is something pretty good for mankind. I hope theyll think its good that democracy and freedom is on the move. And were going to stay engaged, as long as im president , working to improve things. You know, its so easy now to say, hey, cut out foreign aid, we got a problem at home. I think the us has to still have the statue of liberty as a symbol, caring for others. Right this very minute were sending supplies in to help these little starving kids in somalia. It is the United States thats taken the lead in humanitarian aid into bosnia. Were doing this all around the world. Yes, we got problems at home. And i think i got a good plan to help fix those problems at home. But because of our leadership, because we didnt listen to the freeze the nuclearfreeze group, do you remember freeze it, back in the late 1970s freeze, dont touch it. Were going to lock it in now or or else we will have war president reagan said no, peace through strength. It worked. The soviet union is no more, and now were working to help them become totally democratic through the freedom support act that i led on, a great democratic ambassador, bob strauss, over there, jim baker, all of us got this thing passed through cooperation, ross it worked with cooperation, and youre for that, im sure, helping russia become democratic. So the new world order to me means freedom and democracy, keep engaged, do not pull back into isolation. And we are the United States, and we have a responsibility to lead and to guarantee the security. If it hadnt been for us, Saddam Hussein would be sitting on top of threefifths of the oil supply of the world and hed have Nuclear Weapons. And only the United States could do this. Excuse me, carole. Ms. Simpson thank you. Mr. Perot. Mr. Perot well, its costeffective to help russia succeed in its revolution. Its pennies on the dollar compared to going back to the cold war. Russia is still very unstable. They could go back to square one, and worse. Still all the Nuclear Weapons , are not dismantled. I am particularly concerned about the intercontinental weapons, the ones that can hit us. Weve got agreements, but they are still there. With all this instability and breaking into republics, and all the middle Eastern Countries going over there and shopping for weapons, weve got our work cut out for us. So we need to stay right on top of that and constructively help them move toward democracy and capitalism. We have to have money to do that. We have to have our people at work. See, for 45 years we were preoccupied with the red army. I suggest now that our number one preoccupation is red ink and hed red ink in our country preoccupation is red ink in our country and weve got to put our people back to work so that we can afford to do these things we want to do in russia. We cannot be the policeman for the world any longer. We spent 300 billion a year defending the world. Germany and japan spend around 30 billion a piece. If i can get you to defend me and i can spend all my money building industry thats a home run for me. Coming out of world war ii it made sense. Now, the other superpowers need to do their part. Ill close on this point. You cant be a superpower unless youre an economic superpower. If were not an economic superpower, were a used to be and we will no longer be a force for good throughout the world. And if nothing else gets you excited about rebuilding our Industrial Base maybe that will , because job one is to put our people back to work. Ms. Simpson governor clinton, the president mentioned Saddam Hussein. Your Vice President and you have had some words about the president and Saddam Hussein. Would you care to comment . Gov. Clinton id rather answer her question first and then ill be glad to. Because the question you asked is important. The end of the cold war brings an Incredible Opportunity for change. Winds of freedom blowing around the world, russia demilitarizing. And it also requires us to maintain some continuity some bipartisan american commitment to certain principles. And i would just say there are three things that i would like to say number one we do have to maintain the worlds strongest defense. We may differ about what the elements of that are. I think that defense needs to be with fewer people in Permanent Armed services but with greater mobility on the land, in the air, and on the sea, with a real dedication to continuing development of High Technology weaponry and well trained people. I think were going to have to work to stop the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Got to keep going until all those Nuclear Weapons in russia are gone and the other republics. Number if you dont rebuild the two, economic strength of this country at home, we wont be a superpower. We cant have any more instances like what happened when mr. Bush went to japan and the japanese Prime Minister said he felt sympathy for our country. We have to be the strongest economic power in the world. Thats what got me into this race, so we could rebuild the american economy. And number three, we need to be a force for freedom and democracy, and we need to use our unique position to support freedom, whether its in haiti or in china or in any other place, wherever the seeds of freedom are sprouting. We cant impose it, but we need to nourish it and thats the kind of thing that i would do as president follow those three commitments into the future. Ms. Simpson okay. We have a question up there. Yes. Weve talked a lot tonight about creating jobs. But we have an awful lot of High School Graduates who dont know how to read a ruler, who cannot fill out an application for a job. How can we create high paying jobs with the Education System we have, and what would you do to change it . Ms. Simpson who would like to begin the education president . Mr. Perot go ahead, sir. Yeah, go ahead. Pres. Bush id be delighted to, because you cant do it the old way. You cant do it with the School Bureaucracy controlling everything and thats why we have a new program that i hope people have heard about. Its being worked now in 1700 communities bypassed congress on this one, ross 1700 communities across the country. Its called america 2000. And it literally says to the communities, reinvent the schools, not just the bricks and mortar but the curriculum and everything else. Think anew. We have a concept called the new American School corporation where were doing exactly that. And so i believe that weve got to get the power in the hands of the teachers, not the teachers union. Whats happening up there . [laughter] and so our america 2000 program also says this. It says lets give parents the choice of a public, private or Public School public, private or religious school. And it works it works in milwaukee. And it works it works in milwaukee. Democratic woman up there taking the lead in this. The mayor up there, on the program. And the schools that are not chosen are improved competition does that. So weve got to innovate through School Choice. Weve got to innovate through this america 2000 program. But she is absolutely right. The programs that weve been trying where you control everything and mandate it from washington dont work. The governors and i believe governor clinton was in on this but maybe i dont want to invoke him here. But they come to me and they say, please get the congress to stop passing so many mandates telling us how to control things. We know better how to do it in california or texas or wherever it is. So this is what our program is all about. And i believe youre right on to something, that if we dont change the education were not going to be able to compete. Federal funding for education is up substantially pell grants are up. But it isnt going to get the job done if we dont change k through 12. Ms. Simpson governor clinton. Gov. Clinton first of all, let me say that ive spent more of my time and life on this in the last 12 years than any other issue. 70 of my states money goes to the Public Schools, and i was really honored when Time Magazine said that our schools have shown more improvement than any other state in the country except one other. They named two states showing real strides forward in the 1980s. So i care a lot about this, and ive spent countless hours in schools but let me start with , what you said. I agree with some of what mr. Bush said, but its nowhere near enough. We live in a world where what you earn depends on what you can learn, where the average 18yearold will change jobs 8 times in a lifetime and where none of us can promise any of you that what you now do for a living is absolutely safe from now on. Nobody running can promise that, theres too much change in the world. So what should we do . Let me reel some things off real quick because you said you wanted specifics. Number one, under my program we would provide matching funds to states to teach everybody with a job to read in the next five years and give everybody with a job the chance to get a high school diploma, in big places on the job. Number we would provide 2year two, apprenticeship programs to High School Graduates who dont go to college. And Community Colleges are on the job. Number three, wed open the doors to College Education to High School Graduates without regard to income. They could borrow the money and pay it back as a percentage of their income or with a couple of years of service to our nation here at home. Number we would fully fund the four, Head Start Program to get little kids off to a good start. And i would have an aggressive , five, program of school reform, more choices i favor Public Schools or these new Charter Schools we can talk about that if you want. I dont think we should spend tax money on private schools. But i favor Public School choice, and i favor radical decentralization in giving more power to bettertrained principals and teachers with Parent Councils to control their schools. Those things would revolutionize American Education and take us to the top economically. Ms. Simpson thank you, governor clinton. What is the question . What are they going to cost . Ms. Simpson the question is, what is he going to cost . Ov. Clinton in six years i budget all this in my budget, and in six years the College Program would cost a over and billion dollars above what the present Student Loan Program costs for. You pay for busted loans, 3 billion because we dont have an automatic recovery system, and a billion dollars in bank fees. So the net cost would be 8 billion dollars six years from now in a trillionplus budget not very much. The other stuff all the other stuff i mentioned costs much less than that. The Head Start Program full funding would cost about 5 billion more. And its all covered in my budget from the plans that ive laid out from raising taxes on families with incomes above 200,000 and asking Foreign Corporations to pay the same tax that american corporations do on the same income, from 140 billion in budget cuts, including what i think are very prudent cuts in the defense budget. Its all covered in the plan. Ms. Simpson thank you. Mr. Perot, you on education, please. Mr. Perot yes, ive got scars to show for being around education reform. And the first word you need to say in every city and state, and just draw a line in the sand, is Public Schools exist for the benefit of the children. Youre going to see a lot of people fall over it, because any time youre spending 199 billion dollars a year, somebodys getting it. And the children get lost in the process. So thats step one. Keep in mind in 1960, when our schools were the envy of the world, we were spending 16 billion on them. Now we spend more than any other nation in the world 199 billion a year and rank at the bottom of the industrialized world in terms of education achievement. One more time youve bought a frontrow box seat and got a thirdrate performance. This is a government that is not serving you. By and large it should be local the more local, the better. Interesting phenomenon small towns have good schools, big cities have terrible schools. The best people in a small town will serve on the school board. You get into big cities, its political patronage, stepping stones you get the job, give your relatives a janitors job at 57,000 a year, more than the teachers make, and with luck they clean the cafeteria once a week. Now, youre paying for that. Those schools belong to you. And we put up with that. Now, as long as we put up with that, thats what youre going to get. And these folks are just dividing up 199 billion bucks and the children get lost. If i could wish for one thing for great Public Schools, it would be a Strong Family unit in every home nothing will ever replace that. You say, well, gee, what are you going to do about that . Well, the white house is a bully pulpit, and i think we ought to be pounding on the table every day. Theres nothing the most efficient unit of government the world will ever know is a strong loving family unit. Next thing. You need small schools, not big schools. In a Little School everybody is somebody. Individualism is very important. These big factories everybody , told me they were costeffective. I did a study on it. They are cost ineffective. 5000 students. Wise i high school that big . One reason. Sooner or later you get 11 more boys that can run like the devil that weigh 250 pounds and they might win district. Now, that has nothing to do with learning. Secondly, across texas, typically half of the school day was nonacademic pursuits in one place it was 35 . In texas you could have unlimited absences to go to livestock shows. Found a boy excuse me, but this gives the flavor a boy in houston kept a chicken in the bathtub in downtown houston and missed 65 days going to livestock shows. Finally had to come back to school, the chicken lost its feathers. Thats the only way we got him back. [laughter] now, thats your tax money being wasted. Now, neighborhood schools. It is terrible to bus tiny little children across town. And it is particularly terrible to take poor tiny little children and wait until the first grade and bus them across town to mars, where the children know their numbers, know their letters, have had every advantage. At the end of the first day, that little child wants out. Ill close on this. Youve got to have world class teachers, world class books. If you ever got close to how textbooks were selected, you wouldnt want to go back the second day. I dont have time to tell you the stories. Ms. Simpson no, you dont. [laughter] mr. Perot finally, if we dont fix this, youre right. We cant have the industries of tomorrow unless we have the best educated workforce. And here youve got, for the disadvantaged children, youve got to have Early Childhood development. Cheapest money youll ever spend. First contact should be with the money when she is pregnant. That little child needs to be loved and hugged and nurtured and made to feel special, like your children were. They learn to think well or poorly of themselves in the first 18 months. Ms. Simpson thank you. Thank you, mr. Perot. Mr. Perot and in the first few years they either learn how to learn or dont learn how to learn. And if they dont, they wind up in prison. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. Mr. Perot and it costs more to keep them in prison than it does to send them to harvard. I rest my case. Ms. Simpson thank you. President bush, you wanted to answer. Pres. Bush i just had a word of clarification because of something governor clinton said. My School Choice program, gi bill for kids, does not take public money and give it to private schools. It does what the gi bill itself did when i came out of world war ii. It takes public money and gives it to families or individuals to choose the school they want. And where its been done, those schools, like in rochester, those schools that werent chosen find that they then compete and do better. So i think its worth a shot. Weve got a Pilot Program. It ought to be tried. School choice public, private or religious. Not to the schools but to you know, 46 of the teachers in chicago, Public School teachers, send their kids to private school. Now, i think we ought to try to help families and see if it will do what i think make all schools better. Gov. Clinton i just want to mention if i could ms. Simpson very briefly. Gov. Clinton very briefly. Involving the parents in the preschool education of their kids, even if theyre poor and uneducated, can make a huge difference. We have a big program in my state that teaches mothers or fathers to teach their kids to get ready for school. Its the most successful thing weve ever done. Just a fact clarification real quickly. We do not spend a higher percentage of our income on Public Education than every other country. There are countries that spend nine more than we do on Public Education. We spend more on education because we spend so much more on colleges. But if you look at Public Education alone and you take into account the fact that we have more racial diversity and more poverty, it makes a big difference. There are great Public Schools where theres Public School choice, accountability and brilliant principals. Ill just mention one the Beasley Academic Center in chicago. I commend it to anybody. Its as good as any private school in the country. Ms. Simpson we have very little time left and it occurs to me that we have talked all this time and there has not been one question about some of the racial tensions and ethnic tensions in america. Is there anyone in this audience that would like to pose a question to the candidates on this . Yes. What id like to know, and this is to any of the three of you, is aside from the recent accomplishments of your party, aside from those accomplishments in racial representation, and without citing any of your current appointments or successful elections, when do you estimate your party will both nominate and elect an afroamerican and female ticket to the presidency of the u. S. . Ms. Simpson governor clinton, why dont you answer that first . Gov. Clinton well, i dont have any idea, but i hope it will happen some time in my lifetime. I do, too. Gov. Clinton i believe that this country is electing more and more African Americans and latinos and Asian Americans who are representing districts that are themselves not necessarily of a majority of their race. The American People are beginning to vote across racial lines, and i hope it will happen more and more. More and more women are being elected. Look at all these women Senate Candidates we have here. And it you know, according to my mother, my wife, and my daughter this world would be a lot better , place if women were running it most of the time. I do think there are special experiences and judgments and backgrounds and understandings that women bring to this process, by the way. This lady said here, how have you been affected by the economy . I mean, women know whats it like to be paid an unequal amount for equal work. They know what its like not to have Flexible Working hours. They know what its like not to have family leave or childcare. So i think it would be a good thing for america if it happened. And i think it will happen in my lifetime. Ms. Simpson okay. Im sorry. We have just a little bit of time left. Lets try to get responses from each of them. President bush or mr. Perot . Pres. Bush i think if barbara bush were running this year she would be elected. But its too late. You dont want us to mention appointees, but when you see the quality of people in our administration, see how colin powell performed i say administration [inaudible] pres. Bush you werent impressed with the fact that he excuse me. Im extremely impressed with that. Pres. Bush yeah, but wouldnt that suggest to the American People, then, heres a quality person, if he decided that he could automatically get the nomination of either party . Sure i just wanted to know yes. Pres. Bush huh . Im totally impressed with that. I just wanted to know is, whens your pres. Bush oh, i see. When . You mean, time . Yeah. Pres. Bush i dont know starting after four years. Pres. Bush no, i think youll see ms. Simpson mr. Perot. Pres. Bush i think youll see more minority candidates and women candidates coming forward. Ms. Simpson we have thank you. Mr. Perot i dont want to cut you off any more but we only have a minute left. Mr. Perot i have a fearless forecast. A message just wont do it. Colin powell will be on somebodys ticket 4 years from now right . Right . He wanted that said 4 years. Ms. Simpson how about a woman . Mr. Perot now, if wont be, general waller would be you say, why do you keep picking military people. These are people that i just happen to know and have a high regard for. Im sure there are hundreds of others. Pres. Bush how about dr. Lou sullivan . Mr. Perot absolutely. Pres. Bush yeah, a good man. Ms. Simpson what about a woman . Mr. Perot oh, oh. Pres. Bush totally agree. My candidates back there. Mr. Perot okay. I can think of many. Ms. Simpson many . Mr. Perot absolutely. Ms. Simpson when . Mr. Perot all right. How about Sandra Day Oconnor as an example . Dr. Bernadine healy ms. Simpson good. Mr. Perot National Institutes of health. Ill yield the floor. Pres. Bush all good republicans. Mr. Perot name some more. Ms. Simpson thank you. I want to apologize to our audience because there were 209 people here and there were 209 questions. We only got to a fraction of them and im sorry to those of you that didnt get to ask your questions but we must move to the conclusion of the program. It is time now for the two minute closing statements and by prior agreement president bush will go first. Pres. Bush may i ask for an exception because i think we owe Carole Simpson anybody who can stand in between these three characters here and get the job done we owe her a round of applause. [applause] but dont take it out of my time. I feel strongly about it because i dont want it to come out of my time. Ms. Simpson give this man more time. Pres. Bush no, but let me just stay to the American People in 2 two and a half weeks were going to choose who should sit in this oval office, who to lead the economic recovery, who to be the leader of the free world, who to get the deficit down. Three ways to do that. One is to raise taxes. One is to reduce spending controlling that mandatory controlling that mandatory, spending. Another one is to invest and save and to stimulate growth. I do not want to raise taxes. I differ with the 2 here on that. The two here on that. Im just not going to do that. I do believe that we need to control mandatory spending. I think we need to invest and save more. I believe that we need to educate better and retrain better. I believe that we need to export more so ill keep working for export agreements where we can sell more abroad and i believe that we must strengthen the family. Weve got to strengthen the family. Now, let me pose this question to america. If, in the next five minutes a , Television Announcer came on and said, there is a Major International crisis there is a major threat to the world or in this country a major threat my question is, who, if you were appointed to name one of the three of us, who would you choose . Who has the perseverance, the character, the integrity, the maturity, to get the job done . I hope im that person. Thank you very, very much. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. President. And now a closing statement from mr. Perot. Mr. Perot if the American People want to do it and not talk about it, then they ought to you know, im one person they ought to consider. If they just want to keep slow dancing and talk about it and not do it, im not your man. I am results oriented. I am action oriented. I built my businesses getting things done in three months that my competitors took 18 months to do. Everybody says you cant do that with congress. Sure you can. Congress theyre all good people. Theyre all patriots but youve got to link arms and work with them. Sure, you will have arguments. Sure, youll have fights. We have them all day every day. But we get the job done. Now, i have to come back in my close to one thing because i am passionate about education. I was talking about Early Childhood education for disadvantaged little children. And let me tell you one specific Pilot Program where children who dont have a chance go to this program when they are now were three. Going back to when the mothers pregnant and theyll start right after theyre born. Starting when theyre 3 and going to this school until theyre 9 and then going into the Public School in the 4th grade. 90 are on the honor roll. Now, that will change america. Those children will all go to college. They will live the American Dream. And i beg the American People, any time they think about reforming education to take this piece of society that doesnt have a chance and take these little pieces of clay that can be shaped and molded and give them the same love and nurture and affection and support you give your children and teach them that theyre unique and that theyre precious and that theres only one person in the world like them and you will see this nation bloom. And we will have so many people who are qualified for the top job that it will be terrific. Now, finally, if you cant pay the bills youre dead in the water. And we have got to put our nation back to work. Now, if you dont want to really do that im not your man. Id go crazy sitting up there slow dancing that one. In other words, unless were going to do it, then pick somebody who likes to talk about it. Now, just remember when you think about me i didnt create this mess. Ive been paying taxes just like you and lord knows, ive paid my share over a billion in taxes. And for a guy that started out with everything he owned in the trunk of his car ms. Simpson mr. Perot, im sorry mr. Perot that aint bad. Ms. Simpson once again. Mr. Perot but its in your hands. I wish you well. Ill see you tomorrow night on nbc 10 30 to 11 00 eastern time. [laughter] ms. Simpson and finally, last but not least governor clinton. , gov. Clinton thank you, carole, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Since i suggested this format i hope its been good for all of you. I really tried to be faithful to your request that we answer the questions specifically and pointedly. I thought i owed that to you and i respect you for being here and for the impact youve had on making this a more positive experience. These problems are not easy. Theyre not going to be solved overnight. But i want you to think about just two or three things. First of all, the people of my state have let me be their governor for 12 years because i make commitments to two things more jobs and better schools. , our schools are now better. Our children get off to a better start from preschool programs and smaller classes in the early grades, and we have one of the most aggressive Adult Education programs in the country we talked about that. This year my state ranks first , in the country in job growth, 4th in manufacturing in job growth, 4th in income growth, 4th in the decline of poverty. Im proud of that. It happened because i could work with people republicans and democrats. Thats why weve had 24 retired generals and admirals, hundreds of business people, many of them republican, support this campaign. You have to decide whether you want to change or not. We are not need four more years we do not need four more years of an economic theory that doesnt work. Weve had 12 years of trickle down economics. Its time to put the American People first, to invest and grow this economy. Im the only person here whos ever balanced a government budget and ive presented 12 of them and cut spending repeatedly. But you cannot just get there by balancing the budget. Weve got to grow the economy by putting people first real people like you. I got into this race because i did not want my child to grow up to be part of the first generation of americans to do worse than her parents. Were better than that. We can do better than that. I want to make america as great as it can be and i ask for your help in doing it. Thank you very much. Ms. Simpson thank you, governor clinton. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the debate, sponsored by the Bipartisan Commission on president ial debates. Id like to thank our audience of 209 uncommitted voters who may leave this evening maybe being committed and hopefully theyll go to the polls like everyone else on november 3rd and vote. We invite you to join us on the 3rd and final president ial debate next oct 19, from the monday, campus of Michigan State university in east lansing, michigan. Im Carole Simpson. Good night. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] American History tv is on social media. Follow us. Three historians look at the struggle of black troops into world wars to overcome racism and earn the right to fight as combat soldier. Speakers include john morrow junior and robert