But im not going to make decisions that i think are wrong for america. New question, mr. President. Do you believe that diplomacy and sanctions can resolve the nuclear problems with north korea and iran, taking them in any order you would like. North korea, first i do. Let me say i certainly hope so. Before i was sworn in, the policy of this government was to have bri lateral negotiations with north korea, and we signed an agreement with north korea that my administration found out that was not being honored by the north koreans. So i decided that a better way to approach the issue was to get other nations involved, just besides us. And across texas, crawford and i agreed a free north Korean Peninsula was in his interest and our interest and the worlds interest. So we began a new dialogue in north korea, one that included not only the United States but now china and china has a lot of influence over north korea. In some ways more than we do. As well we included south korean, japan and russia so now there are five voices speaking to ji to kim jongil, not just one. So if kim jongil decides not to honor what he signed, this will be a injustice to not just america but the world. And if thats what he wants, to the five Coalition Nation sending him the message. On iran i hope we can do the same thing. Continue to work with the world to convince the reigning mullahs to abandon their convictions. We work closely with germany and Great Britain who work forcely delivering the message to the mullahs if you expect to be part of the world of nations, get rid of your Nuclear Weapons. Iaea has been called. There are laws passed to allow for inspections. I hope we can do it. We have a good strategy. Senator kerry, 90 seconds. With respect to iran, the british, french and germans were the ones who initiated effort without the United States regrettably to begin to try to move to deter the Nuclear Possibility in iran. I believe we could have done better. I believe the United States should have offered the opportunity to provide fuel, test them, see whether or not they are looking for peaceful purposes, if they werent working to work a deal, we could put sanctions together. The pez did nothing. Wi the president did nothing. With respect to north korea, the real story, we had inspectors in the real north korea. We knew where the fuel rods were and knew their limits on nuclear power. Colin powell announced, our secretary of state, one day we knew and would continue to work with them. The president reversed him, publicly, and colin powell went back bewildered and embarrassed because it went against his policy and for two years this administration did not talk at all to north korea. While he didnt talk the fuel rods came out, inspectors kicked out, Television Cameras kicked out and today there are 47 Nuclear Weapons in the hands of north korea. That happened on this president s watch. That i think is one of the most serious reversals or mixed messages you could possibly send. I want to make sure but in this one minute, i want to make sure we understand the people here watching understands the differences between the two of you on this. We want to continue the Multi National talks, correct . And youre wanting to do it. I want bilateral talks which put all of the issues from the armistice of 1952, economic issues, human rights issues, artillery disposal issues, dmz issues and Nuclear Issues on the table. And youre opposed to that, sir, right . The minute we have bilateral talks, is sixparty talks will unwind. Thats exactly what kim jongil wants. By the way, the breach on the agreement was not plutonium, the breach on the agreement was highly enriched uranium. Thats what we caught him doing. Thats where he was breaking the agreement. Second, my opponent said he worked to put sanctions on iran, we already sanctioned iran. We cant sanction them anymore. There are sanctions on iran. Finally, we were Party Working with germany, france and Great Britain to send Foreign Ministers into iran. New question, two minutes. Senator kerry, you mentioned darfur. 50,000 people already died in that area. More than 1 million are homeless. Its been labeled an act of ongoing genocide, yet neither one of you nor anyone else connected with your campaigns or your administration that i can find has discussed the possibility of sending in troops. Why not . Ill tell you exactly why not but i first want to Say Something on eye rang. Only the United States put the sanctions on alone and thats exactly what im talking about. In order for the sanctions to be effective, we should have been working with french, german, and other companies and thats the difference between the president and me. There again he slid by the question. With respect to darfur, yes, it is a genocide. Months ago, many of us were pressing for action. I think the reason that were not saying send american troops at this point several is fold. Number one, we can do this through the africanamerican union, ploying we give them the logistical support. Right now all of the president is providing is humanitarian support. We need to do more than that. They have to have the logistical capacity to go in and stop the killing and thats going to require more on the table today. I also believe it is one of the reasons we cant do it is were overextended. Ask the people in the armed forces today. Weve got guards and reserves who are doing double duties. Weve got a backdoor draft taking place in america today. People with stoploss programs where theyre told you cant get out of the military. Nine out of our ten active duty divisions committed to iraq one way or another, either going, coming, unpreparing. This is the way the president overextended the United States. Thats why in my plan i add two active duty divisions to the United States army. Not for iraq but for our general demands across the globe. I also intend to double the number of special forces so we can do the job we need to do with respect to fighting the terrorists around the world. And if we do that, then we have the ability to and spoud more rapidly. Ill tell you this, as president , if it took American Forces to some degree to coalesce the 56union, i would b prepared to do it because we can never allow another rwanda. Its a moral responsibility for us in the world. 90 seconds. Back to iran just for a second, it was not my administration that put the sanctions on iran. That happened long before i arrived in washington, d. C. In terms of darfur, i agree its genocide and colin powell so stated. We committed 200 million worth of aid. Were the leading donor in the world to help the suffering people there. We will commit more over time to help. We were very much involved at the u. N. On the sanction policy of the government in sudan. Prior the back and forth, we were negotiating a north and south agreement that we hoped would have brought peace to the sudan. I agree with my opponent we shouldnt be committed troops, that we ought to be working with the African Union to do so, precisely like what we did in liberia, helped stabilize the situation with some fronts and when the africanamerican uni u moved them out. Fortunately the rainy season will be ending shortly and make it easier there to help the longsuffering people there. New question, president bush. There are clearly as we have heard major policy differences between the two of you. Are there also underlining character issues that you believe is serious enough to deny senator kerry the job as commander in chief of the United States . Othats a loaded question. First of all, i admire senator kerrys service to our country. I admire the fact hes a great dad. Appreciate the fact his daughters have been so kind to my daughters and what has been a pretty hard experience seeing their young girls out there campaigning. I admire the fact that he served for 20 years in the senate. Although im not so sure i admire the record. I wouldnt hold it against him that he went to yale. Nothing wrong with that. My concerns about the senator is that in the course of this campaign, i have been listening very carefully to what he says and he changes positions on the war in iraq. He changes positions on something as fundamental as what you believe in your core, in your heart everharts, of hearts in iraq. You cannot lead if you send mixed messages. Mixed messages send the wrong signals to our troops. Mixed messages send the wrong signal to our allies. Mixed messages send the wrong signals to the iraqi citizens and thats my biggest concern about my opponent. But i just know how this world works. In the councils of government, there must be certainty from the u. S. President. Of course, we change tactics when need to but we never change our believes, the strategic believes that are necessary to protect this country in the world. 90second response, senator. First of all, i appreciate ee anotherously the personal comments the president just made and i share them with him. I think only if youre doing this and hes done it more than i have in terms of the presidency, you begin to get a sense of what it means to your families, and its tough. I acknowledge his daughters. I watched them chuckle a few times at some of their comments. And trying to push a leash on them. Ive learned not to do that. And i have Great Respect and admiration for his wife. I think shes a terrific person, great first lady. Thank you. But we do have differences. Im not going to talk about a difference of character. I dont think its my job or my business. Let me talk about something the president sort of just finished up with. Maybe some would call it a character trait. Maybe somebody wouldnt. But this issue of certainty, its one thing to be certain but you can be certain and be wrong. Its another to be certain and be right or be certain and moving in the right direction or be certain about a principle and then learn new facts and take those new facts and put them to use in order to change the policy right. What i worry about the president is, hes not acknowledging whats on the ground. Hes not acknowledging north korea, hes not acknowledging the truth of science, Global Research and globe warming and certain things can get you in trouble. I fully believe one should shift tactics, and we will. In iraq, our commanders have all of the flexibility to do what is necessary to succeed but what i want do is change my core values because of politics or because of pressure. And it is one of the things i have learned in the white house, is that theres enormous pressure. You cannot wilt under that pressure. Otherwise the world wont be better off. 30 seconds. I have no intention of wilting. I have never wilted in my life. And i have never wavered in my life. I know exactly what we need to do in iraq and my position has been consistent. Saddam hussein is a threat. He needed to be disarmed. He needed to go to the u. N. The president needed the authority to use force in order to believe able to do something because he never did it without the threat of force but we didnt need to rush to war without a plan to win the peace. New question, two minutes, senator kerry. If you are elected president what will you take to that office thinking is the single most serious threat to the National Security of the United States . Nuclear proliferation. Nuclear proliferation. There are some 600plus tons of unsecured material still in the former soviet union in russia. At the rate the president is currently securing that, it will take 13 years to get it. I did a lot of work on this. I wroets a book abo i wrote a book, six, seven years ago called the new war which saw the difficulties of this International Criminal network. Back then we intercepted a suitcase in a middle eastern country with Nuclear Materials in it and black market sale price was about 250 million. Now, there are terrorists trying to get their hands on that stuff today. And this president , i regret to say, has secured less Nuclear Material in the last two years since 9 11 than we did in the two years preceding 9 11. We have to do this job, and to do the job, you cant cut the money for it. The president actually cut the money for it. You have to put the money into it and funding and the leadership and part of that leadership is sending the right messages to places like north korea. Right now the president is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to research bunkerbusting Nuclear Weapons. The United States is pursuing a new set of Nuclear Weapons. It doesnt make sense. Had you talk about mixed messages, were telling other people you cant have Nuclear Weapons but were pursuing a Nuclear Weapons that we might even contemplate using. Not this president. Im going to shut that program down and were going to make it clear to the world, were serious about containing nur lar proliferation and well get the job of containing all of that Nuclear Material in russia done in four years. And were going to build the strongest International Network to prevent Nuclear Proliferation, and this is the scale of what president kennedy set out to do with a Nuclear Test Ban treaty. Its our generations equivalent and i intend to get it done. 90 seconds, mr. President. Actually, we increased funding for dealing with Nuclear Proliferation, about 35 since i have been the president. Secondly, weve set up whats called first of all, i agree with my opponent that the biggest threat facing this country is weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a terrorist network. And thats why we put proliferation as one of the centerpieces of multi prong strategy to make the country safer. My administration started whats called proliferation security initiatives. Over 60 nations involved with disrupting the transshipment of information and or weapons of mass destruction materials and weve been effective. We busted the aq conn network out of pakistan selling secrets to places like north korea and libya. We convinced libya to disarm, an essential part of dealing with weapons of mass destruction and proliferation. Ill tell you another way to help protect america in the long run is to continue with missile defenses. Weve got a robust Developmental Program thats been ongoing in my administration. We will be implementing a Defense System quickly and thats another way to help deal with the threats we face in the 21st century. My opponent is opposed to missile defenses. Just for this oneminute discussion here, for whatever seconds it takes, so its correct to say somebody ace listening to this, both of you agree if youre elected, mr. President and you are elected, the single most serious threat both of you believe is Nuclear Proliferation . In the hands of a terrorist enemy. Weapons of mass destruction, Nuclear Proliferation. But, again, the test of the difference between us, the president said four years had f to do something about it, north korea has more weapons. Iran is moving towards more republicans. At his pace it will take more than 13 years to secure those weapons in russia. Im going to did it in four years and immediately set out to have bilateral talks with north korea. Your response to that. Again, i cant tell you what i mistake it is to have bilateral talks with north korea. Its exactly what tim jongle wants. The sixparty talks evaporate and china has time to convince kim jongil to get rid of his weapons. Its a mistake to do that. We must have leverage on kim jongil besides ourselves. If you enter bilateral talks, they will be happy to walk away from the table. I dont think that will work. All right, mr. President , this is the last question and two minutes. Its a new subject, new question. It has to do with president putin and russia. Did you misjudge him . Do you feel that what hes doing in the name of antiterrorism by changing democratic processes is okay . I dont think its okay and i said so publicly. I think there needs to be checked and balances in a democracy and made that clear, by consolidating power in an essential government, hes sending a signal to the western world and the United States that perhaps he doesnt believe in checks and balances and i have told him that. Hes also a strong ally in the war on terror. Listen, they went through a horrible situation in bez lan where these terrorists gunned down young school kids. Thats the nature of the enemy and why we need to be firm in resolve and bringing them to justice. Thats what Vladimir Putin understands as well. I have a good relation with vladimir and its important we do have good relation because it enables me to comment with him better and discuss with him some of the decisions he makes. The i found that in this world that its important to establish good personal relationships with people so when you have disagreements, youre able to disagree in a way that is effective. So i have told him my opinion and i look forward to discussing it more with him as time goes on. Russia is a country in transition. Vladimir is going to have to make hard choices and i think its very important for the american president as well as other western leaders to remind him of the great benefits of democracy, that democracy will best help the people realize their hopes and aspirations and dreams. And i will continue working with him over the next four years. 90 seconds, senator kerry. Well let me just say quickly that i had an extraordinary experience of watching up close and personal that transition in russia because i was there right after the transformation and i was probably one of the first senators, along with senator bob smith in new hampshire, former senator, to go down under the kgb and see reams of files with names in them. It sort of brought home the transition to democracy russia was trying to make. I regret whats happened in these past months, and i think it goes beyond just the response to terror. Mr. Putin now controls all of the television stations. His political opposition is being put in jail. I think its very important for the United States, obviously, to have a working relationship that is good. This is a very important country to us. We want a partnership, and we always you have to stand up for democracy. As george will said the other day, freedom on the march, not in russia right now. I would like to come back for a quick moment if i can about issue in china and the toss. Thats one of the most Critical Issues here, north korea. Just because the president says it cant be done, that youd lose china, doesnt mean it cant be done. This is the president who said there were weapons of mass destruction, said michigan accomplished, said we could find the war on the cheap, none of which were true. We could have bilateral talks with kim jongil and we can get those weapons at the same time we get china because china has an interest in the outcome too. 30 seconds, mr. President. You know my opinion on north korea. I cant say it any more plainly. He used the word truth again, talking about the truth of the matter. He raised the word truth again. Did that raise any hackels with you . Im a pretty calm guy. I dont take it personally. We looked at the same intelligence and came to the same conclusion, Saddam Hussein was a great threat. I dont hold it against him he was a great threat. Im not going to go around the country saying he didnt tell the truth when he looked at the same intelligence i did. It was a threat. But thats not the issue. The issue is what you do about it. The president said he was going to build a true coalition, exhaust the remedies of the u. N. And go to war at the last resort. Those words really have to mean something. Unfortunately, he didnt go to war as a last resort. Now we have an incredible mess in iraq, 200 billion. Its not what the American People thought they were getting when they voted. And that brings us to closing statements and as, again, as determined by a coin toss, senator kerry, you go first and you have two minutes. Thank you, jim, very much. Thank you very much for the university again. Thank you, mr. President. My fellow americans, as i said at the very beginning of this debate, both president bush and i love this country very much. Theres no doubt i think about that. But we have a different set of convictions about how we make our country stronger here at home and respected again in the world. I know for many of you sitting at home, parents and kids in iraq, you want to know whos the person who can be a commander in chief and get your kids home and get the job done and win the peace. And for all of the rest of the parents in america who are wondering about their kids going to school or anywhere else in the world what kind of world theyre going to grow up in, let me look you in the eye and say to you, i defended this country as a young man in war and i will defend it as president of the United States. But i have a difference with this president. I believe were strongest when we reach out and lead the world and bring strong alliances. I have a plan for iraq. I believe we can be successful. Im not talking about leaving. Im talking about winning. We need a fresh start, new credibility, a president who can bring allies to our side. I also have a plan to win the war on terror, funding homeland security, strengthening our military, cutting off finances, reaching out to the world. Again building strong alliances. I believe americas best days are ahead of us because i believe that the future belongs to freedom, not to fear. Thats the country that im going to fight for and i ask you to give me the opportunity to make you proud. I ask you to give me the opportunity to lead this great nation so we can be stronger here at home, respected again in the world and have responsible leadership that we deserve. Thank you, and god bless america. Mr. President , two minutes. Thank you very much, jim, senator. If america shows uncertainty or weakness in this decade, the world will drift towards tragedy. Thats not going to happen so long as im the president. The next four years we will continue to strengthen our homeland defenses, we will strengthen our intelligence gathering services, we will reform our military. The military will be an allvoluntary army. We will continue to stay on the offense. We will fight the terrorists around the world so we do not have to face them here at home. We will continue to build our alliances. I will never turn over americas National Security needs to leaders of other countries. As we continue to build those alliances. We will continue to spread freedom. I believe in the transformational power of liberty. I believe that a free iraq is in this nations interest. I believe a free afghanistan is in this nations interest, and i believe both a free afghanistan and free iraq will serve as a powerful example for millions who plead in silence for liberty in the broader middle east. Weve done a lot of hard Work Together over the last 3 1 2 years. Weve been challenged and weve risen to those challenges. Weve climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below and its a valley of peace. By being steadfast and resolute and strong, by keeping our word, by supporting our troops, we can achieve the peace we all want. I appreciate your listening tonight. I ask for your vote and may god continue to bless our great land. And that ends tonights debate. A reminder, the second president ial debate will be a week from tomorrow, october 8th, from Washington University in st. Louis. Charles gibson of abc news will moderate a town hall type event. Then on october 13th from Arizona State university in tempe, Bob Schieffer of cbs news will mod straight an exchange phon domestic policy that will be similar to the format tonight. Also on tuesday at Case University in cleveland, the Vice President ial candidates, Vice President cheney and senator edwards will debate with my pbs colleague gwen ifill moderating. For now, thank you, senator kerry, president bush. From coral gables, florida, im jim lehrer. Good night. Good job you did a great job. Appreciate it. Thank you, thank you. Every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3, go inside a Different College classroom and hear about topics ranging from the american revolution, simple rights and u. S. President s to 9 11. Thanks for your patience and locking into class. With most College Campuses closed due to the coronavirus, watch professors transfer teaching to a virtual setting. Gorbachev does most of the work for the soviet union but reagan met him halfway, reagan encouraged him, reagan supported him. Freedom of the press, we will get to later, madison originally called it freedom of the use of the press and it is indeed freedom to print things and public things. Its not a freedom for what we now refer to institutionally as the press. Lectures in history on American History tv on cspan3 every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Lectures in history is also available as a podcast. Find it where you listen to podcasts. Youre watching American History tv. Every weekend on cspan3, explore our nations past. Cspan3, created by americans Cable Television company as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Now on American History tv, a Political Science class from the university of utah about president ial debates and their influence on voters. We will hear about different strategies used by candidates and how candidates debate differently based on whether they are ahead or behind in the polls. Okay. Were going to start today by talking about candidate