Symposium cocoordinators. The hard work has made todays event possible, and also thank you to our friends at cspan for sharing American History. A very important task in these days. Our final speaker for the day is Paige Gibbons backus. We have been talking about the war in the east, but we cant forget about the aftermath of battle as well. One of the most compelling portions about Civil War History and the civil war story. Page is a public historian with Prince William county, virginia. She is here today to talk about the carnage in the medical field of the civil war. Thank you, chris, for having me and thank you all for listening in and watching these videos and joining us for the virtual ssymposium. So im going to talk to you about the fight for life and death in the aftermath of these battles. We have heard a lot of talks today about the battles, the prison camps, and the raids. And the aftermath of the battle and in the years and days and months following was a war in itself. It was a war against bat wounds and once against dsz. One historian wrote that doctors were the unsung heros of the civil war. They were forced to practice tirelessly and the Field Hospitals were treating the dieing and the wounds after these ror rihorrific battles. So what was four years of war cost 700,000 casualties. So we will talk about the challenges it created and some of the fights that had to take place in this fight of war and death. What results and what good came out of this result for life and death that a lot of us today take for granted in the medical field. So for the purpose of our conversation today i could be talking to you all day about anything and everything with civil war medicine, but for the purpose of our conversation today and our 45 minutes that i have, i pulled exampled mainly focusing on the war in the east which was the theme of the emerging civil war virtual symposium today. Before we can Start Talking about some of the different challenges that were faced in the medical field, we need to talk about where the medical field was at the beginning of the civil war. At the time of the civil war in the 1850s and 1860s there has been significant medical advancement. We have far gone beyond the four humors that you will see pictured here that are essentially black, yellow, red, biles and phlegm. This is one of the reasons that George Washington dyed. They took too much blood to try to rebalance those humors. So this was coming out of fashion. You had a study of agnatnotomy studies of the bacteriology and epidemiology that is not taking place at this point in time. That would all come into place by the time the civil war began in 1861. However, by the time of the 1850s and 1860s, you do have medical schools that have been around since the 1700s. Some of the better known schools were in paris, such as the picture you see here with the paris clinical school, you see the medical school in edinburgh, scotland, so overseas was more advanced with medical schools than the u. S. But then you had schools in the u. S. Starting to take hold and students were starting to attend. However, with a lot of these schools, there are not many clinicals like were used to today at the medical schools students attend, its more learning from books and more observation from these ka davca. But by this point in time in the 1850s and 1860s, they were starting to establish the American Medical Association and trying to reform the medical fields through journals, medical societies as well as experiments and investigations. But by the time the civil war began, the medical departments both for the Northern Army and the Confederate Army thought they were well prepared for what they were going to experience. However, at the very first major battle of the civil war on july 21st, 1861 at the battle of first monassis would really illuminate how many medical issues they would face during the civil war. At the battle of first monassis, you had 1700 troops enganged ina battle that lasted about 75 thour hours. And during that 75 hours, you had 3500 soldiers that were missing or wounded. And this really began to reveal itself to the medical departments. In the medical field, you had two surgeons to each regiment, so that meant you had a surgeon and an assistant surgeon for about a thousand men. For the union armies, there were no hospitals established there on the battlefield because they had marched that morning from centreville. And for the Confederate Army it was four miles to the south in the monassis junction. There were no hospitals set up in the front lines. Additionally at this point in time, there was no centralized ambulance corps. The regiments had their own ambulances and there would not be an ambulance corps that was federalized until august of 1862. This meant that ambulances were regimental, this meant there were cases where some soldiers were actually picked up with priority over others based on what their regiments were. It also resulted in slower action which resulted in more deaths. Just to kind of give you an idea of some of the scenes that were found at first monassis, one soldier from the 5th german infantry described the field of porticci in the hours after the battle. He writes, there were piles of legd legs, feet, hands, arms all thrown together and resembled a pile of corn at a corn shucking. There was a stray boot or shoe. Surgeons, some very skillful, were carving away like farmers at butcher season, while the poor devils under the knife yelled with pain. Many limbs were lost that should have been saved and many lives were lost trying to save the limbs that should have been amputated. There was another group of confederate soldiers that came across a few Union Soldiers in the stone house made famous by the battle of monassis. Some remarked in that building there were 32 soldiers, many that were dreadfully mangled by cannon shots. There was one surgeon. He was young and apparently inefficient. Many men lay on the floor with their wounds. Some had died and had not yet been removed. For all these surgeons and medical personnel at the battle of monassis, this was the first time for them seeing warfare and they had only practical experience. So there were mistakes that cost soldiers lives, there were mistakes that also saved soldiers lives. But at the battle of first monassis, there was not a line drawn yet. At this point there was still a north and south, and this would create issues for the surgical field, because when hospitals were captured, this meant that you had surgeons that were taken away from their wounded patients. One including at this hospital here, sudly church. When the union army began their route to head back to centreville, decisions had to be made by those Union Surgeons. Do they stay with their soldiers and risk imprisonment down in richmond, or do they leave their patients behind . One surgeon from the 11th massachusetts left a soldier on the operating table and ran. Others decided to stay, and they were taken away and sent to richmond for the prisoner of war camps, leaving confederate troops in need of treatment. But for a lot of these Union Surgeons who are overwhelmed with their own wounded, that meant a lot of these confederate soldiers did not receive the treatment that they needed, costing many lives. And as a result of this, not a year later, in may and june of 1862, this gentleman here, dr. Hunter mcguire, and several other Union Surgeons who were captured enter into an agreement in may of 1862, stating that we surgeons and assistant surgeons of the United States army who are now prisoners of war in this place do give our parole of honor on being unconditionally released to report in person singly or collectively to the secretary of war in Washington City as such and that we will use our best efforts in the same number of medical officers of the Confederate States army, now prisoners or may hereinafter be taken or released on the same terms. And this effectively, since may of 1862, with Edward Stanton creating order number 60, essentially made medical personnel neutral over the course of the rest of the war. At this point it did turn into a fight of life or death where medical personnel both for the union and confederate soldiers were trying to save as many lives as possible. But at this point, you have several other challenges that illuminate themselves over the course of the civil war. And one of the biggest ones is the increase in casualties. Remember, for the battle of first monassis, you have about 3 3500 casualties in one day. For example, for antetum, for one day would reach 17,000. In gettysburg, it would create 33,000 wounded soldiers. This created several issues in terms of food supply, medical supply, staffing that now the medical department for both the north and the south are overwhelmed to try and save as many lives as possible. And one example in the battle of antetum, a new york tribune reporter making his way to the battlefield on september 18 remarked what he saw. He said, the wounded are coming in by the thousands around and in a large barn. I counted more than 1200 wounded. Along the same road and within the distance of two miles are more than three hospitals, each having from 600 to 700 in them and long trains of ambulances standing in the road waiting to discharge their bloody loads. Surgeons with hands, arms and garments covered with blood and busy amputating limbs extracting balms and removing limbs on every part of the body. In addition to this, after the battle of gettysburg, the entire town was turned into a hospital. One reporter from the public philadelphia ledger, on july 15, 1863, remarked that this town and the vicinity around it with the space of a county surrounding it about eight or ten miles is literally one vastly overcrowded hospital. In the town itself, every Available Space has been freely given out by the citizens to the sufferers, yet this, the ninth day after the battle, several are lying with arms and legs amputated and every other kind of conceivable wound in open tents, woods, barns, and some on the bare ground without any cover or any shelter. And this helps lead us to another challenge that was experienced in the medical field over the course of the war that had a huge impact on this fight for life and death, and that was the weather. The weather is one of the most impactful things on the memories of these soldiers and civilians that were here over the course of the civil war. And its actually one of the most recorded events in letters and primary documents. The weather impacted military tactics. For example, jacksons famous flanking march at the battle of chancellorville would not have been made possible without the days rains that blocked the dust of the union armies. In addition to this, we learned about general ambrose burnsides mud march in january of 1863, forcing troops to march through some of the worst weather on the muddiest roads that anybody has ever experienced. It also had a Significant Impact on the treatment of the wounded. Men who were exposed to the elements, especially in the Field Hospitals, were much more susceptible to disease and to illnesses, and conditions that impacted the way that they were able to heal their wounds. And so, for example, after the battle of gettysburg, there was a severe thunderstorm that raged through the area, causing flooding in the fields and in the root cellulars, some of whi filled with water. Following a violent wind gust of heavy wind and rain, some would have drowned had not the extraordinary efforts been put forth to prevent it. In addition to this, for example, in fredricksburg, in december of 1862, the average temperature was a recorded low of the 20s and a high of the 40s or 50s. And in the days before the battle of fredricksburg, one delaware soldier remarked, rain, hail, snow all day and far into the night. And two days later he remarked that on december 6th and 7th had to be one of the coldest i had experienced since joining the army. There were men who were frozen to death on the picket. The Field Hospitals fared much of the same way after the battle of first monassis with snow and rain flooding into the masses, offering little protection and little comfort. But those in the camps had it the worst. Many of these men were forced to live outside in camp shelters to shield themselves from the rain and the heat as well as had little protection for their skin with clothing as well as little food to sustain themselves. They say its one of the most notorious prisons in the south, the prison in georgia, but for our discussion today, i pulled some discussions from he wielmi. Elmira had 3100 housed in only 30 barracks. With the onset of winter, there were orders made for barracks to be built. Many of these tents were without floors or without blankets. One man who was in elmira for the winter remarked, if there was ever a hell on feearth, elma was that hell, but it was not a hot one. 100 men were trying to keep warm by one stove. Each morning men crawled out of their bunks and would get into fights frequently for a place by the fire. God help the sick and the weak as they were literally left out in the cold. And by december, mostly everyone was in these overcrowded barracks, but with the summer drought, high temperatures and with many of these armies traveling, especially throughout the south, this led to another problem food shortages. An observer from the Christian Commission in gettysburg remembered after the battle of gettysburg at a Field Hospital on rock creek, and she reflected on the typical state of the hospitals in town. And she writes, the men were in a terrible condition. They lay upon the damp ground, many of them with nothing under them. In the hospitals, there was usually a large number of amputations. The amputated stumps lying directly on the ground except when, now and then, elevated a little upon a handful of straw or a bunch of old rags. Many of these men, perhaps most of them, were in want of clothing. Suitable food was not to be had. The surgeons were overworked, there was an insufficient number of attendants. Nearby were quite a thousand rebels, most of them severely wounded, shrieking and crying for assistance continually. Many of them were naked and covered with filth, without tents, lying in the mud, cursing, praying, begging for their attendants or visitors to put an end to their suffering. Another identified soldier from the 47th North Carolina remembered that he was at College Hospital in gettysburg a year after the war ended. He writes, as a consequence of a small number of surgeons left with us, our men suffered much. Thus for the first two weeks, there were no nurses, no m medicines, no kinds of food for men in our condition. Our supply being two or three hard crackers a day with a small piece of fat pork and now and then a cup of poor coffee. For men who are reduced to mere skeletons from severe wounds and loss of blood, the floor was a hard bed with only a blanket on it. Each day we became weaker and thinner until a certain point was reached. Then if our wounds were curable, nature began to revive the wasted frame. If they were not, there was a little struggle, a low moan and the more emaciated skeleton of what was once a man was wrapped in a blanket and borne from our site forever. So not only would you find this struggle with the weather in these Field Hospitals after these battles all throughout the war, you would find them in the camps as well. The fifth alabama that was camped at Cockpit Point in the winter of 1861, all throughout the winter remarked, we being from alabama where the winters are not so severe considered this winter of 18611862 to be one of the coldest of our lives, and at this high point of the potomac, the coldest in america. So it seemed to us we never got enough food, and we came near freezing and starving to death that winter. It is the first time in our lives that rations became a part of our regular wartime life. And so having this lack of food, having this exposure to the elements created one of the most dangerous challenges that the medical personnel were forced to face over the civil war, and that was disease. Over the course of the civil war, twothirds of soldiers of that 700,000 died of disease rather than from their battle wounds. And there were several issues that caused this, even from the wars beginning, even when you had soldiers starting to enlist. Many of these soldiers were coming from all walks of life, coming from cities, coming from farms, coming from north, south, coming from the countryside. They were all exposed to different kinds of diseases and had different kinds of immunities. When you put hundreds of soldiers together in camps, all of a sudden you have soldiers grouped together, living in close quarters wiand disease spread rampantly. The most common diseases were diseases such as disenterry, diseases such as malaria and scarlet fever. You had measles that spread all the way through these hospitals as well as typhoid fever. But there were some things surgeons could do to try to curb the spread of these diseases. One of which for malaria and yellow fever was to provide quinine which was one of the few effective medicines used in the civil war and was given into the soldiers rations where they would drink it with a little bit of water, though it tasted terrible, so they would actually prefer to drink it with a little bit of rum or a little bit of alcohol, but this was one of the few medicines that was actually provided for these soldiers to try and help curb some of these diseases. For measles and for typhoid fever, which came from being in close quarters, as well as having poor drinking water, there was really no cure. And so for a lot of these diseases like typhoid fever, was actually one of the more dangerous diseases that we found over the course of the civil war. Approximately 36 of soldiers became sick with typhoid fever over the course of the civil war. If they survived, they would have immunity. However, it caused about a quarter of the deaths of these diseases that were found over the course of the civil war. And so in these hospitals, fighting with these diseases and fighting against these infections such as gangrene and diseases such as scurvy created different challenges but also created successes as well. Before getting into some of the successes that were found over the course of the civil war that a lot of us take for granted today, we need to discuss a little bit the difference between the medical corps in the north and the south. And so the medical department in the north was a little bit more equipped, they had more staffing as well as better supplies in terms of medicine and food, and so there is a little bit more freedom in the general hospitals there and throughout the north and in washington, d. C. To be able to treat these soldiers. Throughout the south, however, the medical department was shaped by its lack of resources and the shortages in terms of food, medicine, beds, blanket and staffing. And so as a result of that, the medical department for the confederacy was solely focused on trying to save as many lives as possible with as few resources as they had available. And so because of this, a lot of the medical advancements that we take for granted today, we learn a lot of that from the Union Medical department. And one of the biggest successes that came out of the course of the civil war was this volume of books here, known as the medical and surgical history of the war of the rebellion. And so the surgical and medical history of the war of the rebellion became out of two circulars. Circular number 2 passed in may of 1862, and circular number 5 passed in june of 1862 by the medical department and dr. William general hammond. These circumstanlars were passe through the medical personnel, throughout the north, directing medical personnel to collect specimans and illustrate the injury and diseases that produced death and disability during the war and thus affording the materials for the precise method of study or problems regarding the dim d dimunition of suffering in armies. All of these were passed by dr. William Alexander Hammond who is a military physician and Surgeon General of the United States from 1862 to 1864. Not only did this circular establish the necessity to collect these specimans and collect these cases, it also created the Army Medical Museum as a place to store all of these specimans and store all of this information. And so in directing all of these collections, anything that was considered of value to a surgeon was sent to the Army Medical Museum including specimans, projectiles, reports, images on a scale that had never before been seen in American History and in the american medical field. As these circulars spread, more surgeons wanted to get involved. More medical personnel wanted to get involved because not only did it create the opportunity for them to advance, it created the opportunity for surgeons to learn. For example, dr. Jacob acosta, a civilian doctor who is treating ill patients in philadelphia was able to submit his studies using new techniques to diagnose illnesses. Additionally, dr. Samuel gross, chair of the surgery at the jefferson medical college, was able to use the circular to study the effects of camp diseases on surgery. And just a few these are just a few examples of what you would find in the medical and surgical history of the war of the rebelli rebellion. I do warn you it is not for the faint of heart. There are some graphic images in there and graphic studies in there, including this study here which is the effects of beggange on the arm. In addition to this, with circular number 2, circular number 5 is the circular that actually created the Army Medical Museum. And so sanitary, topographical, medical reports, essays, the results of medical inquiries, everything that was considered of value was sent here to washington, d. C. A lot of times they were sent with barrels full of alcohol in order to preserve these specimans that were being sent from the fields. Eventually all of these studies, all of these circulars would have been published in about 15 different volumes over the course of the next 20 years after the war had ended. And a lot of these studies and a lot of these specimans were housed in the Army Medical Museum, now known as the National Museum of health and medicine today just outside of washington, d. C. And so for all of these medical journals and a lot of these cases and a lot of these specimans provided a wealth of knowledge for future generations. Edward smith, who was a physician who wrote to dr. Hammond congratulating him on the circulars wrote that, if there is any benefit from the sad struggle of this age, it is that the medical officers can fully justify looking for information and present the information for the worlds future use. And even 150 years later, we can still go and visit the National Museum of health and medicine today. And, again, i would highly suggest if you go and visit, it is an Amazing Museum to go and see. However, you do need to have a strong stomach to go and visit it for you are seeing specimans, including dan sickles leg, several other soldiers there as well. So within these circulars, there are a few different pieces of civil war medicine and a few different pieces of medical advancements that a lot of us take for granted today that we would find. And one of them is bacteriology. That is essentially the study of germs and what causes diseases. Over the course of the civil war, surgeons and all the medical personnel didnt know what caused these diseases and what made people sick. They didnt understand how germs spread, and as a result, they violated almost nearly every rule about the sterilization of the tools and sterilization of the body that surgeons use today. One soldier remarked at the beginning of the civil war that it was common to see a doctor with his sleeves rolled up to his elbows, his bare arms as well as his linen apron smeared with blood, a knife between his teeth. As a result of this, doctors were practicing different antique methods that we now know to be completely out of date, one of which was laudible pus. Laudible pus was a sign of an infection that we now know today, but pus they thought back then was actually praiseworthy. It meant that a wound was healing. So what they actually did, they used supration cups to keep the wound damp, keep it moist, and when this pus appeared, they thought it was healing properly and they would take that pus and transfer it from one soldier to another to transfer the healing properties, when, in fact, we now know today they were passing on infections. In addition to this, they started to experiment with different kinds of sutures, especially with this shortage of supplies. One common suture that was used was most commonly horse hair. When using horse hair, its coarse and tough to work with. Surgeons actually began to boil it, make it softer and easier to work with, make it more pliable. But when they did that, they started to realize that soldiers who were being sutured with the horse hair rather than the silk and the wire thread were not becoming as il, al, the wounds e not becoming as infected. This helped lead to the germ theory, and that boiling water and washing your hands starts to kill germs. So one surgeon also remarked after the war into the specifics of the type of horse hair that should be used, and he wrote that for the purpose of a suture, a long, white tail is actually the best horse hair to use. He added, before being used, it should soak for a minute or two in boiling water, or it may be drawn once or twice through your fingers with moistened ends if that hair had dried out. The next thing that we use a lot today that a lot of people take for granted is Reconstructive Surgery, now known today more commonly as plastic surgery. Over the course of the civil war with the vast majority of these operations taking place in the hospitals where there were amputations, you had several soldiers who were left with deformities, and for those who are not able to have any kind of prosthetic or any kind of reconstruction previously were forced to live a doomed life where some soldiers could not be seen in public anymore, they could not function, they could not support their families, and it had a terrible impact on the soldiers mental states. Well, with the creation of Reconstructive Surgery, this started to change in about the 1830s. However, it was very simple, just pulling skin, twisting skin, things of that nature, but over the course of the civil war, it actually started to grow and increase into a much more prominent practice. And one of the surgeons who was most commonly known for his Reconstructive Surgery was dr. Girden balk of new york who was one of the most constructive doctors of this surgery, using rotation, transition, which is cutting different pieces of skin and replacing it, as well as shifting things around in order to try and help these soldiers live the easiest and most normal lives that they possibly could. And this here is one of the most common cases you would find, or one of the most wellknown cases you would find of Reconstructive Surgery. This is private roland ward. And these images that you see here are actually included in the surgical history of the war of the rebellion for numbers 167, 168, 169 and 170. The case for this says a fistula orifice, 1 inch in diameter, with the collection of saliva he has been able to use. Before the completion of his operation, the patient is to reach a sitting position to receive his nourishment and food and water. He can take his drink standing up. He also has the use of a rubber button properly adjusted in the fistula so that he can actually have this food and drink and stop the discretion of saliva from making its exit externally. So you can see that by the use of this button and by the use of this Reconstructive Surgery, his face almost quite literally is reconstructed to where he can have a normal life, where he can talk, where he can eat, where he can drink as sitting up and rejoins society. But for a lot of these soldiers, for these reconstructive surgeries, its not quite so simple when youre losing an arm or when youre losing a leg. So the vast majority of operations that took place during the civil war were amputations. In fact, there were over 60,000 amputations over the course of the civil war. And so prosthetics became an important part of civil war medicine, not only just for mobility but for being able to become inconspicuous and rejoin civilian society as well. Now, for soldiers who had amputations, having a prosthetic limb was a lot easier to have if you had a leg amputation. For soldiers who had an arm amputation, a lot of prosthetics that were given to soldiers was an arm prosthetic where the hand was solely a hook. For a lot of these soldiers, having a hook for a hand was incredibly uncomfortable. It was also not very inconspicuous, so many of these soldiers rather preferred to have the empty sleeve rather than have the arm prosthetic. But for a lot of these prosthetics, you had a lot more common prosthetics being seen from 1861 to 1873 for leg prosthetics. Between 1845 and 1861, you had 34 patents that were issued for different leg prosthetics. By 1873, you had 133 patents that were issued for prosthetic limbs. And they were uncomfortable to function, they were uncomfortable to walk around in, but for many cases, a lot of these soldiers were able to stand and they were able to stumble around and rejoin society. Almost one of the first soldiers to undergo an amputation was this soldier here. His name was james hanger from virginia. He lost his leg on june 3rd, 1861. He found the prosthetic given to him incredibly uncomfortable, so he designed his own called the hanger limb. It became so popular that midpoint through the war, he actually began to distribute it for other soldiers who needed it. By 1861, he had actually created his own company. And so by 1888, he actually had several businesses with several of offices from washington, d. C. , st. Louis, philadelphia, pittsburgh, baltimore and atlanta to which he actually was able to merge it into a Larger Company called the j. E. Hanger company. And now the j. E. Hanger company is one of the leading prosthetic companies in the United States today. So for the prosthetics that soldiers had to use over the course of the civil war, like i said, they were uncomfortable, they werent that functional, but they were just functional enough to be able to stand, be able to stumble, to be able to rejoin society in terms of socialization, maybe even working in some of the shops and working throughout the towns. But by now today, with the prosthetics that we have available, we can have prosthetics that actually have functioning fingers, we have prosthetics that we can actually run with and can actually perform all the regular duties that we would if we had two legs, and for a lot of these soldiers who had had to have Reconstructive Surgery, like i said, it was just enough for them to be able to function comfortab comfortably, but with many of these faces, they would not be the same as they had been before the war. But today, for Reconstructive Surgery, we take a lot of that for granted, and we can have feet, arms, faces, entire body parts reconstructed for both medical purposes, for necessity, as well as for beauty as well. And so with the civil war, with over four years of civil war, you have over 700,000 casualties that, again, created this life and death fight that was full of challenges from the weather, from the shortage of personnel and food to being out in the field, but with war, and all of the sacrifice and all of this carnage, all of that had not been in vain, for we were able to use their ultimate sacrifice to be able to learn and study and grow our medical professionals so that we can take the medicine that they did not have and that we can use it today to live longer, healthier, fuller lives. Thank you so much for having me here for this symposium discussion today. I hope you guys enjoyed my conversation, and if youre interested in learning more information or checking out these medical and surgical histories of the war of the rebellion, theyve all been dij ti digitized and theyre all online for you to peruse through. Thank you so much for having me. Weeknights this month were featuring American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. Following more than four years of world war, 50 family members signed the United Nations charter in the hopes of preventing future war and promoting peace and justice. On september 4, 1945, the u. N. Was officially established. We feature five films beginning with the signing of the u. N. s charter. Thats tonight at 8 00 eastern. Enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan3. Every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3, go inside a Different College classroom and hear about topics ranging from the american revolution, civil rights and u. S. President s to 9 11. Thanks for your patience and for logging into class. Reporter with most College Campuses closed due to the impact of the coronavirus, watch professors transfer teaching to a virtual setting to engage with their students. Gorbachev did most of the work to change the soviet union. But reagan met him halfway. Reagan encouraged him, reagan supported him. Freedom of the press, which well get to later, madison called it freedom of the use of the press, and it is indeed freedom to print things and publish things. It is not a freedom for what we refer to institutionally as the press. American history tv on cspan3 every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Lectures in history are also available as a podcast. Find it where you listen to podcasts. During the battleful gettysburg second day, Union Commander george meade called for reinforcements to be on his left flank, only to leave his right flank on george hill. It resulted in multiple attacks, holding the union right despite being outnumbered 31. This is about the post civil war bloc. Welcome to the virtual civil war symposium. Thank you for joining us today. Our next speaker, i call up henry hill, because by day he is a music teacher. Henry hill, no relation to Daniel Harvey or