Transcripts For CSPAN3 Jennifer 20240704

Introduce you to jennifer. Say her book is called levis on button the woke mob took my job but gave me my voice. Jennifer, what was your career path at levis . Slow and steady, but almost the way to the top. I started in 1999 as a Marketing Assistant entry level, the lowest of the low, but worked my way up to chief marketing officer by 2013. Held that post for eight years, which is a really long time to be a cmo. Most people average tenure is about 1820 months. They get fired. But i did a good job. Help the company go public became the brand president. But then i was very outspoken about the need to open Public Schools during covid after a two year conflict internally, i was told there was no place for me at the company anymore. So a cmo, whats the job of a chief marketing officer . Oh, lets see. How can i put it into words . I mean, youre responsible for the brands image. Youre responsible for generating demand, revenue, profitable revenue. Ideally. But really, you know, all of the communication that goes into establishing what the brand stands for, what the products are from the brand, all of that, all of the advertising using the pr and the very sort of tactical search marketing, what the website looks like, what the stores look like, its a lot of stuff is in was levis a good corporate did it live up to its profits through principles motto . No i would argue absolute not. Were you part of pushing that, though, pushing the profits to principles . I was. I was really proud of that. I believed in that. Thats a mantra for people that dont know that the company often cites. We all about profits through principles. We believe that you can im saying we like i still work there but you know we can make money and do right by people. We can offer them a great product that makes their lives better and we can treat employees fairly, pay workers fairly. I believe in that. And, you know, for a very long time, levis furthered employee principles that i was really proud of. They integrated factories in the south before the law required it. They were the first fortune 500 company to offer same sex partner benefits. I was proud of these things. You know, this was about extending rights to all employees. But in the last, i would say 5 to 8 years, thats not really how it is and it is really about a conformist culture. The demand is obedience to a single point of view and everyone else is either silenced or pushed out the door. And what is that conformist point of view . Its Left Wing Party orthodoxy. Simply put, what would you have considered your politics to be when you were working in levis . Left wing. Left wing . I would have considered myself left of left of center my whole life. I voted democrat or further left. I sometimes voted green party my whole life. But i was i asked a lot of questions during covid about the policies that were furthered by the left wing governors and mayors, policies around lockdowns and school closures. And you you know, i found these policies to be not only completely illiberal, but harmful to the people they were claiming to protect, which is true, this is what weve learned. It has harmed these policies, harmed children, and they harmed the poorest and most disadvantaged its children the most, which to my mind was obvious, is what was going to happen. So it felt antithetical to what it meant to be a democrat, to me. We were supposed to be the champion of the underdog and yet we were punishing them while keeping the spoils for ourselves, sending our own kids, not mine. But, you know, to private schools. I really found that hypocrisy, intolerable, intolerable and harmful. And it just made me feel like the entire dogma platform was a lie. As levis brand president , you can explain what that exactly is. Were you reporting directly to the ceo of what were you tracked to be potentially ceo . I was as the cmo. I was even reporting directly to the ceo, which is sort of unusual. But i became the brand president , which meant i went from not just owning all the marketing and communication, but all the product, the jeans, the shirts like the design team reported to me merchandizing, which is like the business side of product, a bunch of other stuff. But thats the main sort of difference between cmo. So anything you would interact with as a levis consumer that came from me and my team. If you saw an ad, if you put on a pair of pants, we did that. So who was chip . Who is chip . Bergh shipper is, the ceo of levis remaining today, still the ceo, although he has stated that he will probably retire soon. I think hes about 65 military guy and his youth worked at procter and gamble for over 20 years. And then moved over to become the ceo of levis in 2011. He would call himself a brand guy. I think his politics were probably fairly conservative when he joined levis. I mean, he said that to me directly, but moving to San Francisco opened his eyes and, you know, he took more and more very left wing stances, which im fine. Anybody wants to do that personally. Ive done so personally as well, forcing that on all of your employees, just allowing them to express any sort of dissenting view from that. That is not profits through principles. Do you consider chip bergh, a friend and a mentor . Did you at one time, not a friend, but a mentor. Did you trust him at one time . Not entirely, no. I mean, i had a sort of, i guess a love hate. No ones asked me this before. Its a good question. You write about him a lot in levis. Yeah, yeah, im very i was very grateful to chip in 2011 when he joined. You know, i had been at the company for 11 or 12 years at that point started as a very young person. And your managers have a tendency to see you as you were then. So i had a hard time kind of breaking through, whereas saw me with fresh eyes. I was just the i dont know what i was at the time vp of something and he was like, wow, shes good. And he gave me a lot of opportunities. He also overlooked me for a lot of opportunities that i deserved. Some of which i didnt actually include in the book because its boring and its too inside baseball. But i was passed over for several jobs. He promised me. So no, i didnt totally trust him. But i do believe thought i was really good at what i did. I do. Why did you not get the ceo job . In a nutshell, because i was outspoken about covid restrictions and when you say outspoken, you mean on social media, not just social media era. Yes, social media. But i also wrote op ads, attended school board meetings, led rallies to get schools and playgrounds opened. You know, i wasnt just this sort of keyboard warrior. I was active in my community. I take my civic responsibilities seriously. And so i was participating in that process. Did you enjoy your time at levis . I did until the last two years. The last two years were very difficult. You have to understand, you know, i spent over two decades, i had a lot of friends. I you know, if you that long that long at a place you go to baby showers, weddings, funerals, these are people you believe are your friends and not a Single Person stood by me. Jennifer, say you in the subtitle of your book, you talk about the woke mob. I want to quote from levis unbuttoned woke capitalism seeks to build Consumer Loyalty through social justice stances rather than what the Company Makes and sells. Woke capitalism tries to convince buyers that companies are in business to do good and make the world a better place, not make money. Woke capitalism seeks to brainwash the world with the message that corporations care about employees even when they lay them off. At the same time as they are delivering unimaginable wealth to shareholders and executor is through dividends and stock price increases. It sounds about right. Yeah, i mean, thats my issue with it is its a lie. Its reputation laundering. You know what is stated inside the boardrooms and executive Conference Rooms is something akin to if we take this stance and align with their values, their values being the consumer or the perceived consumer, they will like us more and they will buy more stuff. Thats what they say. I was that room for ten years. Thats what they say. The younger employees believe in it. Theyre theyre true believers, most of them. And some of the executives believe in it, most of them. It is a very cynical way to wrap themselves in virtue appeal to consumer is they think although we see thats backfiring to some extent, but keep all the money for themselves and theres so much hypocrisy in it. Ill give you one example, which i cite in the book. Under the cover of covid, levis laid off 15 of the corporate workforce. As we said, we did it with empathy. Thats what the headlines read at that same time. In that same time frame, the ceo cashed out 43 million of stock that is not empathy for the common worker. Empathy would have been fighting to keep the jobs, fighting to open the stores. If they could keep working, that would have been the empathetic response. This is a bit of an autobiography because you talk about your early life and what you were doing before levis, but where did you spring from, so to speak . I was an elite gymnast as a child. I wrote my first book called chalked up about that experience, which was another sort of a little bit of a whistleblower account as well. I train from the time i was six until i was 19. I loved it until i didnt kind of like levis. Its a pretty cruel and abusive culture physically, emotionally, and there is sexual abuse thats rampant that was exposed by the case of larry nassar, the team doctor for usa gymnastics for over years. You were the National Champion in 1986 . Thats correct. That is correct. How much pain were you in . A lot of pain, yeah. I won that on a broken ankle. My ankle was broken that night. Was that typical for. Yep. To perform in that type of shape . Yep. What did that do to you as you grew into adulthood . Its kind of its pretty soul crushing. I mean, to live in that much physical pain is very, very difficult to be told at the same time that theres nothing wrong and youre being a wimp and youre a lazy piece of garbage. And to have doctors telling you theres nothing wrong because theyre being influenced the coaches, it will make you a little crazy. And i started unravel i think emotionally physically i couldnt do the sport at the end like i lost an ability to do it because i was mentally kind of im traveling. We were also starving ourselves to death. You know, anorexia is very common in the sport. It was enforced, forced fully by our coaches, meaning you need to lose £3 by tomorrow. I dont care how you do it. These things were literally said to us. So, you know, i was starving my ankle was broken and i was deteriorating by the day. And i ended up walking away from the sport a few months before the olympic trials in 1988, i lost simone biles in tokyo. Well, she didnt during the competition. I did it before. I advised to do it before, not during what was a reaction to people when you walked away as as the defending National Champion, correct. I wasnt. In 1987. So two years prior, you know, i was i was not a National Champion that was really embraced by the community. I was even the night i won. And this was very difficult. Everybody said she didnt deserve it. Shes the worst National Champion weve ever had. So i obviously had a very conflicted relationship with even having won, you know, im this 17 year old kid who never expected this to happen. I was the best on that day. Whether or not i was the best that year doesnt matter. Its a competition. Whos best that day. And they sort of tore me down. I should mention, though, no one expected me to even be at that competition because i had broken my femur. Only nine months earlier. So everyone thought was out for the count down the count as of the 1985 world championships. But i was the comeback kid. How much of your identity from age 4 to 17 or 19 was wrapped up in gymnastics . 200 . All of it. I didnt have an identity outside of the sport, and thats whats so difficult about leaving not just for me, but for any elite level athlete. You have no identity outside of your sport and then you have to go become a regular person. Its very difficult, its very hard and interacting regularly with people was a new thing for you at that point. I mean, i was just in some ways i was very mature and sophisticated. Id traveled all around the world. Id lived on my own, you know, with a coach in other ways. I was so completely immature, you know, id never been on a date. I you just i didnt have normal social interactions, but i went to college, you know, you went to stanford. I went to stanford, yeah. And i was just on a mission to be a normal kid, and i got a little rebellious, which i think was probably healthy. Were you on a gymnastic scholarship . No. Didnt go that route. I wanted to get in on my own merits. So after starting four, what happened . Where did you go . I moved to San Francisco in 1992. Upon graduation it was the best place i ever lived in my whole life. I loved it so much. It was really the home for anyone who ever felt like a weirdo, you know . It was just embracing and everyone was welcome. And you could be as weird as you wanted to be. And i wanted to be weird. I had been so obedient and conformist as a child, i really wanted to kind of push the boundaries a little bit. So i really loved it. And at the time it was filled with artists and, you know, young people thats not true anymore. They cant afford to live there now. Its tech millionaires. Thats it. But i loved it for so long. Its difficult. I left San Francisco in 2021, so my children could attend the school and i missed what it was though. Its not what it was and well get to 21 in just a sec. You took series of jobs, roommates . I did no money. Yeah, everybody did. Thats what you do when youre young. You know, i lived with four or five other girls. I worked odd jobs. It was fun, you know. And i eventually landed in adverts as an agency in 1994 and found myself eventually on the levis account, which, you know, how that all ended up happening. At what point in your career, jennifer, say, did you were you making the kind of money that a cmo or a Group Vice President . Group president you would be making could live comfortably in San Francisco . Probably by the time i was cmo, which was 2013, i was very bad at advocating for myself in terms of compensation and all of that. I was terrible at it. I remember i became the cmo, somebody accidentally sent me. I dont think this is in the book like a spreadsheet with everyone is salary. At my level, they didnt mean to send that to me and i was the lowest paid person and i was like, what . What am i doing . Im the highest performer. But i had just always not been very good at that. It felt gross to me. You do tell story in the book about meeting with h. R. And then telling you knowing increase in pay. Yeah. Take the good job. Right. And i agreed to that but that was stupid. So at what point did you start to become known as the trouble maker at leaving . I didnt, you know, i dont think is that, you know, i hate to use that word if its not. Thats a nice way to put it. I mean, i think the real way would have been like not a troublemaker, but a q and on conspiracy theorist is what i kind of became known as. I mean, i started i was pretty outspoken right from the start of code like march 2020, i questioned the school closures. I didnt a call from anyone internally until september of 2020. You know, i knew it was controversial. I knew my friends were like, what are you doing . But no one called. So i was like, okay, maybe theyre not on twitter. Maybe they just didnt notice. Boy, was i wrong. And then i got the first call in september 20, 20 from my peer was the head of Corporate Communications saying people are noticing dont like it so and i said, oh, so your kids are in school, right . She said, yeah. Why were her kids in school in years . Not because the private schools opened. The private schools were opened. Her kids were going to private Public Schools. Your kids still at home, still closed . Yeah, mine. And more importantly, the 60 of whom were low income and had no strong wife. I no parent at home to mind them. You know, my kids were luckier than most. Obviously in Public Schools. I was concerned about all the children at that level that you were at. Jennifer sey is it tempting to go the private route . I was never interested in it. I feel like were part the city and the community we live in and i dont want to be cordoned off from it. I think its like raising veal and a pen when you like cordon your children off from like real life and real their neighbors i want to be part of the city we live in. Were not better than the people we live around. Back to levis unbuttoned quote and this is your inner voice talking to yourself. This is the way you wrote this. You you can put up we care about profits through principles face and you can post about blm and lgbtq and all the other letters. But when the rubber hits the road, its all about the benjamins, as they say, and desperate to maintain this harder right over easier, wrong. We really care ethos. You strike down any view that veers from the orthodoxy. The San Francisco bubble Democratic Party orthodoxy because yes, youre about party, not principles. Youre about appealing to the woke to sell jeans because they seem cool to you like they might buy more and spend more than some midwestern on stylish selfavowed patriot. Thats the loud part. Thats the thats the quiet part being said out loud. Correct. I get to do that now. Is it is it refreshing . Is it scary to be able to say things . I, you know, write things like this . Its its refreshing. I mean, obviously, i said what i thought on the issue of covid before, but i was restrained and i look back and i am proud of how i comported myself. And you include a lot of the tweets that you sent in the book . Well, i think its important because any reasonable person reads them now, thinks theyre perfectly reasonable. I wanted to make that clear there is i would challenge anyone to challenge anything. I said. Im nice, im diplomatic. Im restrained. I am never rude. I cite data most people now who are rational look at the things i was posting. Theyre like, i dont get what was wrong with that. Yeah, exactly. But im more free now to let the inside voice out, which is is freeing. Its liberating. I dont have to think what is somebody going to think . You know, ive also been called every name you can be called at this point. Im not afraid of what theyll call me. I laugh at it now, who are members of the woke mob that you refer to . Well, theres various sort of cohorts. There are young employees, which is a small but punitive minority that like sending emails to my boss and so theres theres a cohort of employees who called me all manner of, you know, racist, bigot. Q and on conspiracy theorist and attempted to, you know, struggle session these ideas out of me struggle session yeah. It was like a struggle session. I had to do an apology tour and i was briefed before the apology tour. But this is as brand president. Yes, i was already brand president. I was told i need to do an apology tour. Theres actually an email that prepared me for the apology tour that i found after i wrote the book that basically says, you need to prove you are one of us, not one of them, that youre one of the good guys, not one of the bad guys people think you are a racist. Your q and on. They think youre a conspiracy theorist and an antivaxxer and you need to prove that you are not okay. Where did the racist part come in with your tweets about covid . Ill explain that. Its very convoluted, but i can do it quickly. The idea was if you wanted the schools to open, which were disproportionate populated by black and brown children that you did not care about, black and brown children died. That was the carnival rooted rationale. Where q and on fall. I dont understand that. And im not sure q9 is real to this day. So i dont know. I cant explain the antivaccine part. Are you vaccinated . Which you talk about in the book . I am. And but i was. I want to be. I did it because it was mandated. Why did you for your job . Yeah. Why did you not want to. I looked at my risk profile. It was very, very low. It seemed unnecessary. Me. Another quote from the book. Is, dont get me wrong, im not against capitalism. Far from it. Im against the charade that is social justice. Capitalism. I want to buy stuff because its the best stuff on the market. When me over with your excellence, ill even pay more for it. Ill express my political affiliation with my vote, not my sneakers or soft drink of choice. Yeah how can you walk through a crowd and identify peoples political affiliations by what theyre wearing or carrying or. Well, certainly if theyre wearing a you know, like a rainbow swoosh. Swoosh is the nike symbol rainbow. It would be their pride month. You know, t shirt. Yeah, i guess theres very few brands that express a cause that are aligned with the more concern of it. Im thinking apparel right now . I cant really think of Apparel Brands that are aligned. Theyre all left. Thats why i have no job. Are you financially secure because of your past employment . Which is none of my business. But i asked you why. Yes, but i cant not work for the rest of my life. Im not kind of financially secure. Im in no danger of my children going hungry and i need job. And you left the of San Francisco after all this happened, correct . I did. I left in midst of it because in the spring of 21 schools still showed no sign of opening. I had a kindergartner who had never set foot in a classroom. I have four children, but my kindergartner never been in a classroom. And i his first year of school, i didnt want to be such a disaster. I wanted him to have a good experience and have good feeling about school. So we moved to denver. Our offices were closed, we were working virtually so that my son could attend school in person. Why denver . Few reasons. I a city. Still, i wasnt prepared to kind of move to the burbs or the i just wasnt ready. It was close enough to San Francisco. I could get there in a day or back a day, one day there and back. And i still had some inperson meetings with my team and i like in colorado, theres a bit of a libertarian. Its very blue now, but they are very welcoming to all viewpoints. Ive never felt afraid to raise anything, i think, and have an open, honest conversation with my neighbors and even the governor, jared polis, hes i mean, hes called himself a democratic. So i like that. Jennifer, say, do you talk to anyone from levis anymore . Were you, as they say, shunned . I was shunned. I talked to a few people who have left since, who have reached out to me, since leaving. Has anyone said sorry . No. Do you think you deserve a sorry . I do, but im not waiting one. How is it that youre able to write what you right here . Did you not take a buyout in india . No, i took no nda. I was offered. So when i was told in january of 22 there was that i needed to leave. You need to go now. Basically what they said youve lost the trust of the team and the employees. Theres no room for you as a leader at this company. If you sign this nondisclosure agreement, well give you 1 million. That was the offer. I decided not to do that because i didnt want to sign a nondisclosure agreement so i could write this book not for the money. Its not that much money, but because i thought it was so important to tell the story of censorship the fact is i relate it to my story in particular if we had been able collectively to an open and honest conversation about kids in schools and lockdowns, we would have reached very different decisions rather having an open conversation. People like me were demonized and deplatformed and that is very dangerous. And is that. The fact that you were demonized and deplatformed rather than having an open, honest discussion, regardless of what the outcome of discussion might have been . Thats the thing that drives you in a sense. Now, yes, in this particular instance, i think if there had been a suicide city wide conversation with doctors and, you know, epidemiologists and not just sort of government led, talking points because there were people renowned doctors pushing back, they were censored. But if we were permitted to have a conversation, i think we would have reached a different answer, a right answer. And our children and california wouldnt have been out of school for close to 19 months. That caused lot of harm. And but even if we didnt reach that answer, we still need to have those on matters of public concern. You were demonized as well for what your husband, daniel, had to say. Is that correct. Yeah, so a little misogynistic . Thats a good question. I think. I mean, thats all conjecture, but i dont think anybody was asking, you know, the ceo what his wife thought. But then again, his wife wasnt probably tweeting a lot like my husband was. So but nobody was all that concerned about it. But he was not in favor of the lockdowns. Your husband, he was not he was not in favor. And he was making that known on social media. Yes. He was very vocal. He was going to antilockdown rallies. I kept my two kids because i thought that that was a bridge. You know, people everybody could get behind. We dont want to harm children. My husband was outspoken more about a range of issues pertaining covid. Any other more aggressive and challenging tone than i do. But you know what . He doesnt work there. Who cares . But apparently if you have a relative that has a viewpoint the company doesnt like, then you dont get to work there anymore. And i just hope everybody thinks, about how dangerous this is, what my dad is a republican and hes a trump voter. Hes not. But what if he was . Does that mean i cant have a job at levis is that the world we want to live in . Did you know any conservative republicans voted for donald trump at levis . Now not part of the company . No, i will will tell you. I mean, the the headquarters are in San Francisco, so definitely not. It was a matter of like, did you vote for the mainstream candidate or the further like, were you a bernie or a biden that was all in bounds and acceptable. There no republicans but we had an office texas we had distribution centers, red states in the middle of the country am very certain that there were lots of folks in those locales that did vote or vote. Trump i am very certain they did not feel comfortable saying that or making that known their friends and colleagues back to levis unbutton yet as i write this, im still puzzling over where i think the lines should drawn. When is it for corporations to move beyond employees to taking overtly political stands beyond . The walls of the company still, that line is its pretty clear when we, along with justice, about every Large Corporation in america, crossed it woke capitalism. Summer of 2020. What are we talking about . Were talking about the blm rallies and they accelerate in sort of denunciation of privilege and vowing to fight racism, the rush to hire, you know, heads of deep divisions, hundreds of people elevate our power and influence in these companies. I have no issue with inclusion. This is not inclusion. If it were inclusive, why does it matter what i say and advocate for out of work, which, by the way, helps the people they say they care about the the student population in San Francisco Public Schools is desperate. Black and brown. So it all just, you know, so many stories of people being canceled and fired in the summer of 2020 for some errant comment from ten years prior. That is somehow in todays context perceived as not anti racist enough. There was a witch hunt going on. Well, speaking of that, do you think you could have withstood this if you hadnt been in gymnastics in that fire, in that cauldron for, well, 12, 15 years and had that pressure on you . Its a good question. I mean, i dont think having competed in gymnastics withstood is sufficient because, look, all my peers, you know, i think i will say this. So when i wrote my first book about gymnastics, there was a ton of blowback there, albeit in a narrower community in the sports community, the olympic movement. I was really vilified and dragged across the internet and ultimately was redeemed. It took ten years, but i was everybody came around and said john was right. That i held close to me. You know, i felt clear eyed about what i was saying and what the data i was logical and rational and i thought people are going to catch up their emotional right now but their catch up i believe thats true still it just i did not beat the clock. You know, i lost my job before that happened throughout levis unbuttoned you you bring up what you see is hypocritical behavior by elite executives and the rest yeah especially when it comes to schools yeah i mean the crazy part is i dont know how schools and covert and locked it shouldnt have been political we should have been concerned and about the children it became a sort of woke pillar of the Democratic Party platform i think in our zeal to in their zeal to get trump out of office, you know, i think that is what started it. And then it just became part of the ether and even though biden won, it kept going, going and going. And the harms became so great that it just became suncor fallacy. We couldnt admit that it was so bad. So were going to stand by these atrocious policies. I think. But yeah, so there was hypocrisy on the part of the Senior Executives who were all do you know, going to their vacation homes and doing whatever they wanted and claiming all in this together which was not true. Their kids were in private school or pods and theyre flying to europe, hawaii. But you had the the workers hours that wasnt the case for them but it was like a frenzy in there it was so uniform people believed. And i think by doing bully people believe they were fighting the good fight. I mean, thats what this was all about, right . You could stay home and do nothing. Feel like the most virtuous person in the world who doesnt want to feel virtuous for doing nothing. And you talk about keyboard warriors, which i used, but i would push back on that. But what is a keyboard warrior and whats the danger of a person like that . The keyboard warrior moniker is used for the very online people who just like try to cancel people online, you know, think theyre doing good activist oriented because theyre, you know, tweeting lot and try to take good people down. I get accused of it because, you know guess ultimately my active twitter is at least part of my demise. But i as i said, i was doing all these other things. I was attending every school board meeting. I worked on the School Board Recall in San Francisco, which successful i led rallies. So i was a real life warrior to do you still tweet from at jennifer sey . I do and what do you tweet about life covered. I treat a tweet i well i dont really have any rules for myself anymore. So i get to tweet about whatever i want. I definitely talk a lot about the impact to children. I dont want anyone to forget about this. It cannot happen again. Our kids are suffering. This has impacted a generation of children. I tweet about issues of, you know, censorship, other various illiberal isms are happening right now in country. I dont know anything that interests me in the news with the benefit of a little bit of hindsight and time, would you change anything that you did during this period . No no, i think i did the right thing and i was true to myself. And so i you know, i try to be grateful that i have the to say anything i want. Theres nothing anyone can do. Im not hurt by the names. They call me now. So i dont regret any of it. Yeah. Whos chris and what happened . Chris is . My brother. We used to be close, so i thought we did not agree on code and policy he was a fervent lock down. I was a pretty passionate antilockdown owner in the beginning, like the first year we talked about our disagreement. But it became too fraught and we havent spoken several years, two or three years at this point. He, his wife is a doctor and he finds my views to be dangerously critical doctors. I find the position that not doctor took individually but, that doctors in Public Health took collectively to be dangerous and a violation of our civil liberties. Levis unbuttoned. Jennifer se writes i unlike some have no real issue with rich people. Thats capitalism. Some people, very few, will make a lot of money. What i do have an issue with is rich masquerading as social warriors and fierce employee advocates. While they are laying off 15 of their workforce at the same time as they are adding tens of of dollars to their bank accounts. They cant have it both ways. Yeah. I dont like hypocrites. People call me a grifter, dont know how they get that, but im not a hypocrite. I stand by my word. Theres no grift in what im doing. Whats. Whats the grift part . Im trying to. I dont know. Its a stupid thing people say online. They somehow think getting like money for taking these stances that i could not authentically believe in the things saying, of course, i believe in them. Why would i give up everything . I gave up a lucrative career. I gave up not just the job had, but this future job of ceo which is what have been an incredible honor to be the ceo of a company id worked in 23, 24 years, a brand i love and where a brand id worn since i was a child. I mean, the money is insane. I told you earlier, chip cash, 43 million of stock. I gave that up so i could use my voice. I mean, if that isnt, i think its incomprehensible to some people that you would give up money to speak the truth. Its so they think you must be getting paid by someone to do it. Theres no one paying me. Jennifer. Say, levis unbuttoned is the name of the book the woke mob took my job but gave me my voi on about books we delve into the latest news about the Publishing Industry with interesting insider interviews with Publishing Industry