Congratulations on your new book titled when it sells all. Ive been a big fan of your work for many years and its great to see all your great reporting put together in one book. So congratulations. Thanks so much, eugene and i think you know as well a big fan of your work over the not amazon is not an easy company to cover and so for our fellow reporters who do it really well for a long period of time i just have the utmost in you and yours, sir. Youre at the top of that list. So a thrill to chat with you today about this. Great. Thanks. So to start off, i wanted to ask you about the of your book winner sells. What did you try to convey there . It seems to reflect, you know, both amazon and walmart. They want to sell everything. But at the same time, youre the conclusion of your book seems imply that theres going to be many winners at the same time. So whats kind of your thought there . Sure. So i think what i was trying to get at with the winner. All title is there was a period of time where specifically inside of walmart were some leaders who felt if they not finally sort of get their act together in Online Retail . So they had know as we might get into for many years you know had fits and starts of paying a lot of attention to ecommerce and investing and then, you know, but really, it was a side show, a distraction for the company. And there came a certain point where. Amazon was growing so quickly, creating so much, gaining so much market share in ecommerce that that walmart did feel there could be a day in the future when amazon is essentially the only winner in ecommerce, you know, whether thats 80 , 90 or 100 market share or some very number unless walmart acted in a big way. And youre right, we i you know, i in the book with without giving away too much yet saying that a we might not be in a great position as a society if if if theres only one. I think we know that but even these two goliath is going head to head. Competition is probably not enough to bring about all the positive changes that wed hope would come with over time and. So maybe maybe well be talking about another company 20 years from now that does things better with respect to labor relations, consumer attention, and also environmental impact. Right. And im also curious about the timing of the book. You know, this rivalry competition has been going on for years. Was there any particular you decided to publish this now or any reason why the viewers have to care about now . Sure. So i think theres a couple of reasons. I started working on the book in a proposal for the book actually in 2019, signed a deal in 2020, a few months after the pandemic began. At that time, you know, ecommerce had become Online Shopping had become, you not just a convenience for many, many people, a necessity. And so walmart was sort of forced after many years again, you know, treating Online Shopping as as a sideshow. So not really connecting their business to their stores as as they could have. And as much as amazon fear they would. Walmart was forced to you know if they wanted to keep their customers and gain customers to really invest heavily this space. So that was that was part of the timing and the impetus that we you know, my agent and i sort of rushed the proposal go ahead of where we would have liked because of the pandemic and all the focus on how important ecommerce was. It was a lifeline for many people. Also. There have been many great books written about amazon. We both knew the journalist brad stone, who has written two of them and but walmart, you know, despite size, despite their power and influence, really hadnt a big important written about them since 26. Book called the walmart. And that book actually, if im not mistaken, did not amazon once in it because of the timing of it. And so theres walmart has gone through this classic case of the innovators dilemma as theyve to figure out Online Retail and catch up to amazon in some ways. And i just thought it was a really story, the tenure of the ceo, doug, who has tried to lead reinvention, you know, has been day to day in news publications, some great journalists, but not in a deep thorough way. And each company influences each others strategies so much over time that i just thought it was a story that hadnt been told. And as the two biggest employers in this country with so much influence, you know, now was the time. Yeah, i agree. Theres theres not that good books about. Walmart. I think the only book i read was the biography by walmarts founder. Right . Yeah. So so your book really does a great job of, you know, really capturing the latest on walmart. Id like to talk a little bit about the opening scene of the first chapter. Its really a fascinating scene where this guy named robert davis meets with walmarts thenceo. I think his name is david glass, correct . He practically puts his job on the line to convince the ceo that walmart to push harder on ecommerce. And then, you know, the story gets really complicated, but can you kind of get into that a little bit and you would history be different if his pitch went a different way . Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, its one of my favorite anecdotes in the book. You know, i even covering walmart and amazon over time, ive kind of been under the impression that walmart just kind of in the earliest years in the nineties, just kind of missed the boat on ecommerce. Wasnt paying enough attention. And what found after a lot of reporting and you know some very helpful former walmart execs pointing me in the right direction, i found there was there was there were excuse me, there were people inside of walmart who saw the promise of ecommerce were actually leading some very small initiatives at walmart, as amazon was just getting selling goods, you know, a walmart website. I think sams club had an early thats partly sams club is by walmart as well. And, you know this employee, robert davis, big champion of the walmart company, had been there a while already. I think about decade and imagined he would spend the rest of his career there. 1998, summer of 1998. Thats the of the scene and yes he walks into the office of david glass, who was the then ceo so walmart head and still says they do have an open door. So walks in asked to with david and is explaining you know we have this small team experimenting with ecommerce but really i need all the other divisions to know from you. The ceo, that we are committed to this new Sales Channel essentially that if i go to to the Warehousing Division or the Trucking Division and tell them i want to put walmart. Com stickers on the side of all these trucks that crisscross the country, that they wont laugh in my face, essentially. And, you know, david glass, who is smart, longtime leader of that company, he said, robert, this this online thing, it may be maybe cool and new but i dont think itll ever be than the sales of one of our sams club stores. So robert davis, a decision to make. He had who had left for amazon and were trying to get him to join. And he had a he had to decide do i save this company i love but that isnt seeing the future or i you know take a chance take a pay cut, move my life my family from arkansas to seattle and go on a new adventure. And that is the path he he chose. And question was also would be differently. I listen walmart had the connections the Product Selection the logistics might the trucks to really be huge player early on if they if they you know put all their effort behind it and i think i think its possible amazon yes may not a be as big or or you know even be potentially if put a big commitment behind this in the nineties i mean amazon was was tiny at the time you know, maybe 100 or 150 million in revenue, which, you know, yes, is a big number, but the companys worth 1. 2 trillion today. So nothing back then. And walmart selling. I, i think a billion a year through. The supercenter so huge moment in time and a story that up till i believe was not told about this important part of business history. Yeah. And whats there a moment when i guess walmart to take amazon more seriously . You know, a lot had happened the rise of the internet and, you know, ecommerce but was there kind of a catalyst that changed the perception over walmart versus amazon. Yeah, sure. So so come to mind so so a few years after robert davis leaves walmart a young executive at walmart who had actually married into the company into the Walton Family, married a granddaughter of sam walton. He he, you know, convinced the company that they start a dedicated online unit at First Partnership with a Venture Capital firm that didnt go very well. And then as part of walmart proper, he sort of know he saw what was coming bit he would go on to become walmarts chairman and and so that was an Inflection Point. They at least were investing a bit but but really you fast forward until the early 2000 tens. Doug mcmillon becomes, ceo of walmart lifer but a younger leader in 2014. And he and his Leadership Team decide we need something to speed up our metabolism. Amazon prime is wrecking ball. We are losing. They knew by that point, they were losing the best walmart Online Customers to amazon prime and they they end up deciding that the best way forward is to make the biggest ecommerce acquisition at the time. Of 3. 3 billion to buy really a pretty unsustainable young at the time called jet. Com but in turn they were buying a Leadership Team led by an entrepreneur named mark lawrie who you know for people follow this space might know previously started a Company Called diapers. Com dot com Parent Company his name was quincy sold it to amazon although really tried to buy that company well marc spent few years at amazon before starting jet. Com and then becoming part of the walmart family through that giant acquisition back in 2016. Yeah, we should probably get into mark lawrie and the whole jet acquisition before that. I also want ask the kind of part reading your book was that walmart was always kind of an early adopter. Adopter, did they they kind of invested in new logistics, made early, early investments in Technology Early on in the founding years, but then for some reason they didnt embrace ecommerce for a long time and im just curious why. Why was that was just you know fear of cannibalizing their own physical store or business. Were there other factors in play . Yeah, i think there were a few big reasons one. One was, you know, walmart built on low, low prices, low wages for but also, you know, theyve run their operations as profitable operations and, you know, they there was this thing they did not want to have different prices in stores from online. But when youre shipping in goods because of ecommerce you have to pay obviously you have to pay for people to pack those boxes and then and then the shipping fees. Right. And ecommerce especially in the early days really unprofitable operation. And a Company Whose is all about not wasting a cent and sure you make profits and then wall street express expecting not to mention dividends. You know those two just you know those two things were hard to to reconcile and so they did not want lose money but at the on the other side they were facing a Company Amazon who was telling wall dont expect profits for a long time were going to gain market share and eventually have tons of Free Cash Flow as we gain share. But you know were in this for the long term. So that was a big sort of dna problem culture clash, you know, sort of what some would call classic dilemma. And that was so even, you know, i talked to a lot of leaders of the walmart online unit over over and they said even at different points you know theyd have a reporting structure where they reported kind of reporting into two different leaders. One would be saying grow, grow and sort of the amazon way. And the other would say, you know, make sure have profits. You know, just one last thing on this topic. One of these leaders i quote in my book, he he said that, you know, there were a couple of years where in the early 2000 where walmart online finally growing, you know, pretty quickly at about a 50 clip year over year and that was not really celebrated. But when the Business Unit got close to profitable city, that is what leader and he called it a mistake. He said, you know walmart amazon at that time is investor ing billions a year into into their ecommerce core business and were investing maybe a couple of hundred million and looking back at some of these leaders just felt like, you know, it was really hard that time for them. But also maybe they didnt paint amazon in as much of the existential threat as they should have. But it was hard to see for some of these walmart leaders that looking at their size, their business and then seeing, you know, a much smaller company, you know, innovating a new way. Yeah. And i think the cultural issues, you you get into in your book, thats also played a really big role. You know, i guess some of the executives had incentives for and the walmart ceo had some you know, they didnt get along with mark basically. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest takeaways for sort of business takeaways and it may sound, but its, you know, something along the lines of its incentives really matter. And when you have different divisions of a big company with that dont align for your leaders like youre going to have big problems. And so as you alluded to, um, you know, mark laurie comes into walmart with his leadership from jet. Com, all these tech guys and gals in the late 20 tens and their, their bonus structures are really all about sales growth not judged on profitability at all. It comes to bonuses. You have guy named greg foran who longtime Retail Leader in australia and then for walmart in china and then in the us running the massive store network and a big part of his bonus structure and his Leadership Teams has do with profits. And so mark laurie and their teams numbers role into greg numbers and so the the losses in ecommerce affect greg and his teams bonuses and it was a big problem you know i have some anecdotes where greg is quipping to colleagues that mark worries that 3 billion men and he must be along walton relative for how much walmart gave him part of the acquisition and mark know to be fair didnt really help the cause much you know he he wants he wants me to joke in public that greg makes all the money. I spend it all and just at a company like walmart based so much on frugality and low prices and profits that just was never going to go over well. So we should probably talk a little bit more about mark laurie. He plays a central role in your book and. You know, in the scheme of all the walmart history, he was a kind of central figure. Who is this guy . Why is the importance im sure. I mean, what about it . Yeah. So today, i mean, people nonbusiness audience may know him best if youre a sports fan as hes hes now a coowner coowner of the Minnesota Timberwolves basketball franchise along with alex rodriguez, the former baseball star. But ill back up. So mark lori is a guy from originally from Staten Island new york moved to new jersey as a child and is sort of an entrepreneur an entrepreneur always coming up with new ideas as he and a colleague he had an old friend once had a in their early days a Baseball Card company that they sold to topps the Baseball Card company. And then he and a friend then go on to start a Company Called quincy, which was a portfolio of websites but really the main one was diapers. Com. And diapers. Com really was fascinating and attracted loyal audiences, especially in new york and san francisco, because for parents that were starting to digitally savvy, they were putting diapers on your doorstep. In a day or two. The Customer Service was incredible. And, you know, they were really amazon and walmart in this space. So he sort of first comes on the business scene in a big with that company and then the acquisition the sale to amazon i an anecdote in my book about it sort of the last few days before amazon agrees to purchase that company and he and his cofounder tell the amazon leaders over dinner theres some alcoholic drinks consumed that walmart came in at the last minute and, offered them 100 million more. And i describe for, you know, you would think for someone on the precipice of a huge fortune that of course you take the extra 100 million but he and his the amazon executives sort of flip out on him at this dinner table in new york city. They threaten to cut the prices of diapers even more. And essentially, they he and cofounder, end up sticking with amazon they say now, you know, largely out of fear what might happen if if the walmart falls through and they dont have buying them either. So he he becomes known for that reason. Then like i said, either in his final days, amazon or right after he leaves amazon still unclear starts this new idea of a Company Called jet. Com. Again another Online Shopping site, but was trying to do things slightly different way gives savings to customers for taking actions that would make shipments more affordable for the company. So you order more goods jet. Com would give you a discount because they could have all those goods come out of the same warehouse have the warehouse be close to your home and the shipment would be cheaper them. And so they pass on savings. They a variety of different mechanisms to try to help you save money. It was really complicated though mark and his team spent tons of Venture Capital money advertising jet. Com on tv on busses subway was trying to just get people try this service and then stick with it and theyre starting to run out of money but walmart they find walmart and a connection with walmart ceo an introduction and walmarts pretty desperate at that as well and so they they find this marriage and mark goes mark to spend four or five years at walmart which weve which weve alluded to. And he gets sort of Carte Blanche an open, you know, open checkbook initially, at least to reinforce to walmarts digital operation as he sees fit. It does not all go well. We could talk about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved it. I think mark was a bit of a polarizing figure as well i think youre you say hes a he was a great salesperson, a great visionary, but a terrible and repeatedly failed hit internal goals obviously had its clashes with. Walmarts old guards and was he the right answer for walmart looking back, whats kind of your thoughts . Yeah you know, thats thats a great question. And ill ill give the answer. I sort of given the book when you know i know people in this space initially want to know like was walmarts decision to acquire jet and really acquire mark and his team a success for one or good one or not my answer is it depends on what your definition of success is right so if success is changing the narrative of walmart considered sort of a total digital laggard someone you know a company that was to some consumers backward and in some ways he was successful if it was speeding up just the metabolism of the Digital Transformation at walmart if it was you know trying a lot of new things and just showing customers that were going to were going to try to meet you online where how you want to be met how you want to be served. I think he was successful. And the last part i think in technology circles, i think there are now executives and, you know, talent and Technology Leaders who never would have taken a call from a walmart recruiter before that in the last few years did because again the reputation narrative of change. The flip side of this is you look at some of his strategies and tactics. There was an acquisition spree of Young Clothing brands were sort of digital savvy, digital native, as they call it in the industry like. That failed massively. If you look at, you know, some other things he wanted to try to accomplish but ended up not being able to because he had lost, you know, the leadership had lost some faith. His decision making, you know, failure there as well. So its to say, could they have gotten where they are today at walmart, which is a pretty good, you know, compared to a decade ago in terms of online commerce. They have gotten there without him, without. 3. 3 billion. I dont know what answer is. I do know they in a better spot today than they were when he joined the company and i think he and his team need to some credit for that. And speaking of the the buying spree that lawrie led, maybe, can you explain why they did that or how did it turn out . I think they bought, but bonobos and some other smaller companies. Sure, yeah. So, you know he and his team were trying to figure how are we going to differentiate ourselves from amazon at least when comes to Online Shopping . Amazon has, pretty low prices, a lot of the time they have the prime service, which depending on where you live in the us or in this world, you know, could be anywhere from two day delivery to day delivery. So pretty convenient. And then amazon, you know in their pursuit of the Everything Store essentially they up hundreds of thousands of small to sell goods so that their selection their Product Catalog is just you know and so all those areas would be tough to beat amazon on so what they decided to do was, well lets go buy a bunch of sort of younger clothing brands that dont sell on. And maybe we could start to attract some younger customers from demographics than walmarts core customer, because well have these goods that they cant find at amazon. And so, yes, they acquired a company, bonobos, which was a mens wear brand out of new york city, mostly sold online. They did have some showrooms you could try stuff on, but really an Online Business and. They bring in this leader named andy dunn charismatic founder, really good at like storytelling and cheerleading and vision setting and. His goal was lets acquire a bunch more and build this family of brands that sort of make us seem younger and hipper in some ways, but also keep these customers that love these brands from shopping at amazon amazon. It didnt get very far and bonobos does get acquired over 300 million, which is for any company of a sizable deal. And then they try to acquire more companies. And walmarts old guard is looking at the fact that this Leadership Team is having trouble turning profit to begin with and then at these young startups and the valuations that investors have given these young startups marc and team want to buy and saying these dont make money. Theyre like yes they grow fast but theyre not profitable and we already know were having a problem with that internally. Are we going to add more of these problems to to our to our walmart family . And so, andy and mark and theyre only to acquire one more of these brands the name is eloquii. Its plus size womens Fashion Company mostly online. Well, 100 million deal and that deal is finalized. The Company Joins wal mart and. They realize oops we thought this companies financials looked like this but actually theyve been deteriorating in the months before deal and we didnt really know that just was a very bad look. The jet you know Leadership Team andy dunn who was running this operation and at point you know i while reporting the book the Acquisition Strategy was of killed mark just stopped fighting for it. He knew the walmart Leadership Team down in their home office of bentonville arkansas was not going to approve any other big deals. And it all just sort of dies on the. And another important executive on the walmart side is current ceo Doug Mcmillon. I think you describe him as hes not really a natural taker and. He also has other priorities besides ecommerce like, you know, overseas expansion or sams club. So, you know, is he whats this kind of, you know, reputation or how would you characterize him . Is he the right person for, this job or any thoughts . Yeah. So i you know, its amazing Doug Mcmillon is hes been ceo of walmart since 2014. You know, revenue as the biggest retailer still so much power across you know the, United States in somewhat the coasts but really all across middle america. I mean and so is super powerful super important figure. And yet i found i you know, i read that much about him over the years. So i you know, there is a profile in fortune way back in, i think, 2015 maybe. But terms of really knowing who this person was, the coverage is just not that deep. And i think walmart partly liked it that so i wrote a whole about him in the book. I went down and spent about an hour and a half interviewing in the same office sam walton once worked out of in bentonville, arkansas, and i can tell you a few things about him as a leader. One is he did grow up inside the so it seems like they were grooming him for the job from early thirties. Maybe they put him to run sams club, then at some point. Internet, walmart, international, all trying to get him all this different experience. Another is the walmart leaders sort of yesteryear saw him in his early forties at the time as someone who was modern, someone who understood. You know, he talks about back in the day being one of the earliest buyers, i think palm pilot or another of early, early personal gadget and someone who could really lead a transfer. Many nation and get buy in because he knew what he was talking but also he had been at the company a long time i call it. You know, hes sort of i think the chapter is hometown boy. Like he was the he the hometown boy, but one who had seen a bit of the world and liked technology hes a really tough job, though. I dont bad for him he makes over 20 million a year like he is. Hes doing okay. But you know walmart is just a massive operation that was set in his ways and so you know like like i eluded the jet deal and the mark acquisition it was a big a of a hail mary and i think i think they had to do something and i think it was you know i think it makes sense that they felt like they needed to make sort of what was then the play he still has a lot of fans inside the company but trying to do a lot of Different Things as you to i write a chapter about health both Companies Getting into Health Something he really wants the Walton Family really wants walmart to play a bigger role in. Also, he does have to worry about the stores and keeping those leaders, the International Business india is a huge, massive for both companies and walmart has spent a lot there so i think he is seen as a good leader a good champion of the company people, call him a world class operator. I think someone comparative to early years obama level. And so what actually employees want they want him out there even more theres a lot of talk still inside the company frustrating to a lot of people what would sam walton do what would sam do and you know people would just love for doug doug to be even more of the of the company because he he is a beloved leader there. Yeah the anecdote about would sam do that kind of reminding me, uh, how jeff bezos remains a big presence at amazon, even though hes no longer the ceo and maybe we could talk a little bit about, uh, the similar values or cultural overlap that and walmart has. They kind of share you know, frugality, Customer Obsession and it seems like theyre, you know chasing each other, but they also have this of love hate relationship where they each other. Can you talk a little bit about that . Sure. Yeah. So especially the early years of amazon, you know, i think i think there was a lot of a lot of respect for what walmart had built. You know, jeff bezos and his team they did borrow via beyond hiring some wal exact key walmart executives the early days they also did bah borrow some sort of Company Values or what amazon calls a leadership principle. So frugality was one of them. Why essentially we should be operating our business you know internally in most Cost Effective way. Amazon sort of stands apart, you know, from other Silicon Valley tech companies. And that there are no, you know, luxurious free lunches or dry cleaning on or, you know, anything that so frugality was one. Another is bias for action, essentially. Lets not wait, you know, till were 100 sure weve made the right decision. You know, lets not wait six months to try this new because we dont quite know if weve got completely right. Its this idea. Lets move. Lets lets make an informed decision best we can with the information we have and then move quickly and. So amazon famous ali in business circles has, something called two pizza teams, these autonomous teams with people from different parts of the Company Working together on a new project or new idea without interference from other. And i learned in reporting the book. Some of that idea actually from the way walmart used to operate, they had something called strategy teams and walmart leader named rick dalzell, whos a whos a character character in book, he brings some of that idea. Jeff bezos so a lot of respect their consumer. You know, trying to keep prices low, you know, but over time weve also found a and then and then walmart goes ahead in in recent years and hires a ton of people from amazon into logistics and warehouses that said you know amazon ceo is now andy jassy longtime amazonian and and you know i have some reporting in the book where he looks at walmart and he thinks theyre sort of, you know, in some ways as big and big and bad as amazon and he can understand hes talking to his internal why is the government not focused their scrutiny on walmart theyre you know they have more revenue than us they have more physical market share than us. And so there there is that point and begrudging respect. But, you know, theres also this this this real thing that are they are still a core enemy of ours. And not understanding why they dont get no longer get the level of scrutiny that amazons now facing. Yeah. So maybe we move on to amazons side of the story and i really liked your intro where you talk about your brief encounter with jeff bezos and you know, you ask about his outfit, his answer was very interesting that, you know, it kind of captures what amazon is trying to do in the retail world, basically applying new on, you know, in a very old retail market. Can you talk a little bit about that. Sure so, yeah. So my prolog starts with an yeah. Its i meet jeff backstage backstage at a tech conference where he was and i knew i only had a moment or two as you know eugene there are if if jeff were an amazon leaders anywhere there are a group of pr leaders publicity you know Communications Professionals not behind. So this was a planned encounter encounter. So i tried to get his attention. He had recently said in a magazine feature that he was very interested in amazons then young new business selling their own clothing their own line of clothing. So i think its a smart idea to ask him what hes wearing, if hes wearing any. Amazon branded clothing. He didnt really get the connection. He walks away, but he does come back and he talks about this idea that, you know, start sort of old retail stylist and personalized fashion was based on one persons opinion. What if you melded the best of what a human can in this space with what you know, algorithms kid could do and personalizing Shopping Experience . And i thought that was interesting and sort of emblematic of amazon had become or tried to be a few ways. One was this idea of technology and what humans do about best. Then melding that together to create a better outcome a better experience is something that amazon and bezos has cared about for a long time. But the other thing was the way he reacted, his pr professional reacted also just told, you know, they they were not happy that i found him and was speaking to him. And that they really didnt want to have sort of any tough conversations really with people who might report on or just have criticism of the company. And it me that walmart was much, very much this way and until a point in their history they went on this sort of. Yes maybe selfserving listening tour of their critics and amazon is just, you know, you know this well, you never quite wants to even acknowledge that the negative outcomes of some of their actions and so it was a fun scene a fun encounter but i also thought spoke to what amazon had and some lessons they hadnt yet learned from walmart. And but reading your book, it felt like amazon was always a step ahead of walmart. The quincy acquisition. And you know, beating walmart to get pillpack. Yep. Health care. You to health care on online pharmacy. Yeah right. And even buying whole foods on the same day walmart bought bonobos, which was supposed to be a major event for walmart. Correct . Correct. So like, whats whats whats going on here . Is there something that walmart is completely missing or is amazon just better because its an upstart. Yeah, i think theres a couple of things. I think i think part of it is walmart you know failed for so long in Online Shopping that amazon just got this massive lead and so you know its hard to claw your way back. Yeah the the whole foods deal being announced the same day as bonobos. You know i had one executive tell me i think he said, man, my heart my heart sank. You know. Amazon was chess. And it was clear we were playing checkers so so that that was a reality but i think it also was about risk taking. You alluded to this in my interview with Doug Mcmillon. He he admitted he said naturally like im not a risk taker. I think he said Something Like i dont bungee jump, you know, i dont gamble. I dont take but i know like if this company is going to be around 20 years from now, 30 years from now, we do need to take risks. And so in recent, theyve started taking some more risks. But again, its like this is all i think this is all part of the innovators dilemma had something that worked. They were very, very good at. They were rewarded for handsomely by wall street and they fell really far. Now we go to a more present day, if youd like. We could talk about where where amazon is now facing some challenges as well in areas where walmart sort of has their key strengths strengths. Yeah, yeah. I think thats the next question. I had like, you know, physical stores or grocery, health care. Amazon wants to get in, but theres a lot of marks and you know, they have the advantage and how do you see this all playing out . Yeah so i thought know first just amazon acquisition of whole foods at the time i dont know how you saw it i saw it as sort of a amazon in once in there you know very rarely will sort of wave a white flag say like, you know, weve failed and we need help. And amazon had been dabbling with a Grocery Delivery Service years known as amazon fresh. And it really they kind of figure out a sort how to make it sustainable. You know, when it came to the financials and so they go out, they buy whole foods, spend almost 14 billion. Of course, their stock goes up so much on the day that it essentially the deal essentially felt like a free deal for them because they were worth that much more a result of the deal. But the whole foods acquisition, i dont think has gone as well as they would have hoped all sorts of problems from actual like grocery which are keeping groceries fresh and in stock. I think they approached physical retail with some level of arrogance that theyre the smartest guys and gals in the room and and they could figure this out. And so one hand you have whole foods, then you know, as some people may, they expanded into their own bookstores. They up also and have though theyve paused the expansion Amazon Fresh Grocery stores which are supposed to be a little down market from whole foods more of a mass grocer with mass products you know brands like doritos and cocacola and stuff you may not find in whole foods and they thought, well like we discussed with jeff bezos, will add some technology to some of these stores or, you know, maybe you just are able to walk out because youre cart actually scans the products you dont have to wait on line and maybe thatll be enough differentiation. I think they found though the hard way, physical retail is largely about what the core experiences customers and are the prices good are the is the is fresh and theyve sort failed in a lot of ways in this space i think theyll keep added but theyre not quite sure what their differentiation is and you know its just a big area of failure to date. Yeah and you know amazon is dealing with its own set of issues with the leadership change growth slowing down you get into the labor as well is amazon at risk right now or you is now an opportunity to for walmart to to really make a run at, you know, winning more market share . I, i think this is absolutely an Inflection Point in amazons history you cited, you know, all sorts issues. Theres there are the labor issues know there was one Union Victory in new york city. Well see what happens with that the Teamsters Union going at amazon hard as then you have layoffs cutting by the new ceo andy jassy. I think there were some undisciplined spending toward jeff bezos, his last few years as ceo. And so trying to rein some of that in the layoffs were community communicated internally in just an awful way. It was kind of a disaster. I had long amazonians, as they call themselves, who love the company, say, you know, im going to leave the company because of how poorly this was handled. And then you have the physical, you know, slowing growth online, but also this all the problems with their physical retail strategy. I think its been a huge opening for walmart. I think, you know, i think theyre starting to take but really this is the first time in i dont know since, you know, in 20 years, probably that they have a real good to steal a large or some meaningful percentage of amazon customers. Um, but you know, its still early on in sort of this, this period, this new period for amazon and well see if walmart can execute well enough to do that. Yeah. And we should talk about walmart plus a little bit since that seems to be their kind of big new tool they want to use to win more market share. Amazon you broke a lot of news about this new Membership Program from walmart. Is it doing well you know, is it the right you get into how know the behind the scenes thinking at walmart this but can you share a little bit more. Sure so walmart leaders wont say this, but former executives. Well, i think they amazon prime was stealing away so many of their best Online Customers that they eventually felt you know some some leaders have been against a Membership Program. How can you essentially theyre theyre all about that every day low price and if you start giving different customers a different experience or discounts maybe that goes away from that core philosophy. But they they they eventually realize we need to come up with our own essentially membership or a program and they talked about it for a few years. They were slow to finally launch it. But finally in 2020, they they come out with this thing called walmart plus at its core they are to to focus on the fact that you get you can get same day or next day delivery of groceries groceries a space they you know, they keep prices really low. Theyve been in for a long time. So see as differentiation but then, you know, they think well, theres a lot of other things you could do at walmart that maybe we could build the perks. So discounts at walmart, gas stations or pharmacy discounts, we know walmarts big in the pharmacy space. So i think i the idea was was a good one. I think they came along very, very late and its been you know, some of them feel they have to steal prime customers. But, you know, as can talk about for for good and bad reasons, amazon really keeps their prime customers locked in and so hows it doing you i think its doing okay. There were some numbers early on, you know, that showed them having, i think in single digit million customers or members. And so when i hear the ceo, as he did an interview with me, trying not to have me focus on, you know, walmart plus how how important it is, he was saying you know its just one thing were doing. I think that they still have a lot of room there for improvement. But its something i think stay committed to because they feel like they have other choice. If they want to cut into primes hold on people people good so before we run out of time, i want to ask you one last question. Whats verdict, who won or whos going to win . Or as you wrote in your last chapter, are we going to end up with multiple winners . Yeah. You know, if you had asked me, you know, five, six years ago, i thought i thought, sure, that amazon was really going to run away with ecommerce and and then eventually as ecommerce became more important, like run away with everything, essentially, and i did believe there was a world where for a lot of commodity products that you can find in a lot of places, places that amazon would be, it i think walmarts done enough to sort of keep their ground now and i dont see amazon running with it anymore. Thats there are other factors play you know that etsy just filed a lawsuit against amazon related to amazon prime a large part due to some of your reporting eugene as you know. And so theres theres the labor strife, theres the cost cutting. You know, theyre both companies are at sort of this key Inflection Point where walmart can start catching up in a big way but i dont see as of now one winner and maybe my hope just society for you know labor in this country consumers in this country is that you know we will continue to see new companies up that can challenge these two companies force them to do better in a lot of ways. And maybe, eugene, you and i are talking 20 years from now and were talking about a new that doesnt even exist today and that might be not worst thing in the world. All. Well, i guess thats all the questions i have. So thanks again, jason, for taking your time and. I look forward to reading more of your work. Thanks so much, eugene. Same here