Transcripts For CSPAN3 The 20240704

Are here in person with us. Its israel in rockville, maryland. And to those of you numbering at least 500 who were with on zoom, youve joined us from all over the country. Our normal lectures have about 30 states represented, several canadian provinces and people scattered the rest of the world. I also want to welcome the cspan cameras covering a haberman for the first time. For those of you who are new to haberman, a few things about us. For the past 40 years, weve sponsored programs chosen to provide adults with encounters with jewish thought history and culture before covid changed everything. Our programs were inperson and our parties events all from the washington, d. C. Metropolitan area. Today our reach is much broader through zoom. You can learn more about it on the are looking at website. Easy to remember haberman institute dot org. This is our last program for 2022 but we have three major lectures scheduled already for january of next. One by dr. Jeremy englund, georgia tech. One by Georgetown Professor Audrey Soltis and one by dr. Arias supported network of Bengurion University of the negev. You can learn more about each of these on the website website before we get to our program tonight over a number of people, i want to thank. I want to thank congregation bene israel, a continuing partner ours for providing us with this wonderful space and streaming capacity. Second, our thanks to the southern Jewish Society with whom we have worked before and will work again in the future for cosponsoring this event. And third to the chapelle ben Manuscript Foundation for bringing professor here to join. And although talking tonight about the civil war and jewish participation in the civil, let me that tomorrow you go w w w da chapelle and at the many, many historical docu events that they have been collecting and digitizing. But when you do make you have a lot of time because you will be fascinated with everything having to do with extraordinary collection started 50 years ago by benjamin chapelle. And growing ever. Our program tonight is a little different from the normal. Were dividing it into two parts. Were going to begin with an up close look at one of the chapelle foundations major projects, the roster of Jewish Service in the American Civil War and providing us with this update remotely will be adrian de armas, the director of the roster. When that part of the program is completed. We will be treated to a conversation between professors Adam Mendelsohn and pam nadel on. Professor mendelsohns new book, jewish soldiers in the civil war. Ill introduce that part of the program a little more detail after we hear from mr. Ramos. Adrian de armas has been with the shapell Manuscript Foundation for ten years and she has more than 25 Years Experience in private sources storico Document Research database and Digital Asset management. She has mfa and Museum Studies from Washington University and a b. A. In anthropology from emory. Before i introduce her, i have one question for the audience with us. Is there anybody here today whose ancestors fought in the civil war war . There is one in the audience. Okay. And on the on the screen. I know there is many there are many, many more questions than answers there. It is possible for you to ask questions of our two later panelists if you are here in the audience. Youve been given a card that can write the questions on and they will be collected later. If you are on zoom, youll have to email the questions to. Info, info at haberman institute. Dot org. They will be read and collected and on cards and added to those that come from our audience audience. Thats it for me right now. Adrian de armas. From wherever you are on streaming in the the floor, the the microphone, its yours. Thank so much. On behalf of the shapell Manuscript Foundation. I want to thank all of you for attending everyone at the haberman institute for jewish studies bene israel congregate gation and the Southern Jewish Historical Society for sponsoring this event and a special thank you to dan cohen becky levy for making it possible me to participate remotely. I also want to thank their wieseltier for her extraordinary ability to turn ideas into strategic partnerships. Whether its finding right publisher in this case nyu press or compelling the Jewish Community to take an interest in a niche project like the roster. Thanks to benjamin chappelles vision, the chappelle roster redefined, how we look at in the American Civil War. Adam mendelsohn outstanding job of transforming the data weve been amassing into engaging and thought provoking prose. Proof of this. My team and i are pretty passionate about our work. When anyone asks alex what she does for a living, her reply is, how much time do you have . Caitlin named her daughter after clara barton. The gettysburg battlefield was vardys playground as a child, and while it might not be visible via video, i have union blue highlights in my confederate gray hair. Why do we love what we do . The surge of adrenaline when we find what were looking for isnt nothing. But we also feel a very sense of responsibility. History remembers many of the soldiers and sailors. We research and descendants remember their ancestors. But for the boys and men who no descendents or didnt leave mark in the historical record, if we dont remember them, who will . But ive ahead of myself. So let me give you some background on how we got here. Who was simon wolfe . What do you need to know about . And why are we reappraising his magnum opus . Briefly. Simon wolfe was a bavarian born immigrant who became a washington, dc based social Justice Warrior who advised multiple u. S. President s on jewish related topics. His a book entitled the american as patriot, soldier and citizen was created in response to antisemitic rhetoric about jewish patriotism or the lack thereof. Published in 1895. It included more than 8000 names of soldiers and sailors who served in the American Civil War. As you can see, it was predominantly a somewhat alphabetical list of names and regiments with occasional details, such as victor purley, seventh infantry, killed chancellorsville for ben and other collectors with an interest in both the civil war and American Jewish history. It was an invaluable resource, but it wasnt very user friendly and it wasnt 100 reliable. And so the idea of what would become the chapelle roster was born. When i first started on this project, more a decade ago, the assignment to confer military service for the names wolfsburg and add any overlooked scholars believe if any of the names were not jewish, the number was so insignificant as not be worth our time or effort. The first seed of doubt about this assumption was planted by a massachusetts soldier named, henry marx, who was brought up on charges for stealing a ham for his personal use. The next clue came from an obituary for the mother of a pennsylvania soldier named philip halpin. It that shed quote, lived true christian life, end quote. And so on. And so on. As of today, our research has determined that 10 of the names from wolfes book are definitively not jewish. So not insignificant. After. But this isnt surprising given that name. Profiling was a sound Research Methodology at that time. Nevertheless, if we were to create a Solid Foundation for the future study of americans jewish history, woolfs 19th century work needed a 21st century upgrade. How do we do what we do carefully . And collaboratively . We have to mandates obtain proof of military service and evidence a soldier was jewish. Service usually pretty straightforward, but proving that someone who lived more 150 years ago was jewish. Thats a bit trickier. Whereas all resources are equally reliable, we look for evidence of religion in newspapers, archives, genealogical websites and even records. One of our best resources is descendant. So if you or someone you know has an ancestor who was in america circa 1860, please contact us. If they served, we want to include them in the roster. In addition to vetting the names wolf, we add the names, he admitted. To date, weve added nearly 1588 of which were added. This year. And last month we added 49, almost all of whom were sent to us by descendants. While im talking about numbers. Allow me to address the most often asked question we receive how many served the civil war . The reality is the answer changes every single. Just last week i that m andy barr wald were jewish brothers. Maurice and david, and that maurice served under the name of baruch and that the records for davids regiment did not survive the war. Between new additions and new evidence that a name from wolfe was jewish, the shapell roster is constantly being updated. But more importantly, the numbers us nothing about these men. Remember how woolf listed victor killed at chancellorsville . Heres what the chapelle roster has for victor perley affidavits from his mother. A photo more Background Information from his cousin. A family tree and the register of his birth from a synagogue in hungary courtesy of a descendant i met on ancestry last week. The descendant didnt know that victor had immigrated to america and died. The battle of chancellorsville and we didnt know much about his life in hungary. So it was a very fruitful collaboration. Both of us. Much more a military role of honor. The shapell roster soldier pages contain carefully collected details of lives and our favorite feature the connections between whether they married a fellow soldiers sister, maintained a lifelong friendship with someone they once a tent with or served with their brothers, fathers and cousins. After a decade of being immersed in their lives, i can tell you that not every one of them left footprints in the historic record. But when they did, we found them to be brave heroes and cowardly deserters. Pillars of their communities and criminals. While some died much too young. Many others were celebrated. Centenarians. Getting to know each and every of them has been a privilege. And a pleasure, as has being here. Thank you. Thank you very much, adrian. This presentation. I do hope people get a chance to go to the chapelle website because the amount of interesting material on the website is. Extraordinary, extraordinary. So now comes part two of the program will be live. So we we will have claire in our in our sound Adam Mendelsohn who will come up here in a minute is the of the Kaplan Center for jewish and an associate professor of history at the university of cape town. His graduate, the university of cape town, hes from cape town and he has ph. D. From brandeis. Hes the author of a book called rag race how sold their way to success in america and the british empire. And if i had asked the question, not how many people had relatives in the civil war, but how many people had relatives who were in the rag trade. That would be a Different Number of. Hands. Hes also written a code cowritten used in the civil war reader, which he did with brandeis professor, jonathan sarna. Transnational traditions. Perspectives on American Jewish history with a broken and yearning to breathe free in gilded age america. Also with jonathan, something that recent hes coeditor of the journal jewish historic studies and he previously coedited journal American Jewish history. And of course, his newest book, jewish soldiers the civil war, the union army is what we are here to talk about tonight. So the ultimate question, how did a nice jewish boy from south africa wind up as a preeminent scholar of American Jewish history . And it shows that you never many of you know, professor pamela nadell, who be in conversation with. Professor mendelsohn, she holds the Patrick Glendenning chair in womens and gender at the American University here in washington. She directs jewish studies program. She her most recent book, americas women a history from times until today won the 2019 National Jewish book. Jewish book of the year. And she has spoken to haberman before and i spoke on that three book. Shes currently writing a book about the history of american antisemitism that be published in 2025 by w. W. Norton. So i professor nadeau, professor mendelsohn to the podium. Im going to take away music. Im going to give a microphone to professor mendelsohn a professor in the. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So much. So its its wonderful to be here, first of all, to be person with a number of people and i dont know if, you actually brought a slide so you didnt bring a slide here for those of you watching at home is a copy jewish soldiers in the civil war the union army and there arent that many scholars who actually in one semester published books. And here i probably two hands to lift it atom because the weighs about £5 is yearning to breathe in gilded age america which just came out in the fall also so congratulations. Its been quite a semester you. So im im really really thrilled to be here in conversation with adam and i that we should really start with the question that we just heard. So how does a nice jewish boy from town, south africa, become a historian of the civil war in . America, it its a good question. And its a good question and and without necessarily a simple that might pass into an in American Jewish history really came initially from focusing on in south africa. And and then for comparisons and and the initial comparison with in the south and and that was my entry point into American Jewish history. And obviously one of the key formative experiences for , the american south, never mind , the United States more broadly is the civil war and and this is a a formative, obviously, in americans transformative moment for america itself. But but also where i came to understand, we knew less than we should about the experience of of. There is a literature, a very good literature, in fact, which on and the civil war that is a seminal book, wonderful book, written the topic in the 1950 is but i very little since and so when this opportunity came to to then work with the chapelle Manuscript Foundation about which we heard a bit earlier about what theyve been up to, i seized upon it, that this is a and a very unusual opportunity to get a two to both i focus on a topic which has not received sufficient attention but also do it in a way which the the incredible work of the foundation over years to create this database of jewish soldiers in the war provided a very unusual access to to in a jewish experience this extraordinary time in american history. So we have heard something about the shapell foundation. And its its rare to see a brand new resource like this emerge that will let us and you retell revise everything virtually everything that we knew about civil war from the 1950s work of bertram corn. So how can you can you tell us a little bit about working with that a shaped your research because i also know from my own research that you were using other sources as well. So id like to hear a little bit about those two. So absolutely. So the the foundations in compiling this roster of who fought in the war, both Union Soldiers and who fought for the confederacy as well. Its transformative in two ways. One way is it provides this opportunity. Get an intimate knowledge of, the experience of individuals so individuals who some were known to us before, but many of were not recognized where sometimes name on a page and often were completely unknown to historians and end the shapell foundations work is in terms of both verifying the military service of individuals plus also verify saying that these individuals were jewish in process of doing this, they accumulated and collected a vast of documents of all sorts at military service records, pension records, a whole, whole of things, obituaries, etc. , etc. So, so the there both was this opportunity to dive down to, to and come terms with understand individual, but also then to zoom backwards as well to to take a much broader view at the same time and to look at this broader patterns in terms of jewish experience in the war as well. So this intimate view end and the collective of you too, and that allowed for something which is new, which is to compare a jewish experience with that of other soldiers, to get a sense, you know, is there anything was there anything distinctive about being a in the army . And was it anything distinctive about these who served as well in of where they came from, their age patterns when they enlisted . How long enlisted for all sorts of things that kind. So this richness data was was an extraordinary an only possible because this the work of of of the shapell a foundation but as youve alluded to whats another substantial part of this book and really reflected in the text. Well all the individuals stories which come out through letters, diaries and memoirs, there are a whole number of individuals with very different experiences of the war. You know, again, there certainly those with an heroic experience of the war that those who who are in a distinguished one reason or another are able to bring to life at the same time the anonymous individuals the the those who are otherwise lost to history and to to to be able to echo their voices, to reproduce their voices through their letters and through their diaries and memoirs. Is is, again, something which i sought to do with with the book as well. Its actually one of my favorite parts about the book because you have the big picture as you as youve been explaining. You can also hes able to describe how its different than the experiences of other ethnic groups who fought the civil war. But as we history is made by people and you have some stories of individuals, people who put on personas that they that they you know, they just they pretend to be, you know, like like an officer from. Hungary, i believe. Right. And and its completely invented and and these stories are destroyed in iran. Theyre both woven into the text but then there are also these separate parts where you where you give a deep dive. One of the great things about this is that its beautifully illustrated. And New York University press did a fabulous job. So i so before we dive in a little bit more into lets set the stage, lets lets tell our our audience about american in the 1860s. Where were they living . Its as a fairly select group of cities as as you write. What was their place in society and how many were there . So in 60, we think that probably around 150,000 in america most of whom are newcomers, the people who immigrated in largest numbers from from Central Europe, from from what will become later. Germany is now germany at moment they are a proliferation of of states and principalities and kingdoms. So many of them are from Central Europe. Some Eastern Europe and and some from the caribbean and elsewhere. So its a quite diverse Jewish Population at the time, but most of them have arrived very recently have arrived in the 1850s, have arrived in the 1850s. So really newcomers themselves for the most part in america and and most of them are economic migrants that come as young men and young woman to america and they are chasing opportunity in search of of stability and an ability to to create a for themselves in ways that they cannot dream of doing in much europe at this time. And yes they do flock to larger centers. They do theres a substantial Jewish Population, the largest Jewish Population in america. The time is in new york city and and likewise a substantial Jewish Population in philadelphia and cincinnati but again, one of the features which sits apart from other immigrant populations at the time and the arriving at the same moment that others are to america in vast numbers from certainly from ireland, but also from from Central Europe as well, and from elsewhere. But what sets apart somewhat is that they yes, they do flock to cities, but they also they also disperse across the countryside. We see a jewish peddlers are trying to to again, make a living for themselves on the rural byways of america, again, peddling between the farms in the countryside. We see shopkeepers in in small towns really across the country as well. And this dispersion will have implications for during during the war reasons we can we can discuss as well. So so these are mostly newcomers they are mostly establishing themselves mostly are in commercial occupation occupations again which is somewhat different from from most other immigrant groups that these are often shopkeeper or those who are drawn to commerce and but but this and the of the arrival to the units is another feature of this as well. And the American Population has grown dramatically during this period of, relatively small Jewish Population, the 1820s, 1850s, even 1840s is is much, much larger by by 1860. And its really at this point beginning to try to establish its institutions, national institutions, yes, there are synagogues in many towns and larger cities. But but again, its this moment of of American Jewish life before the war. Right. So just let me remind everyone whos watching and also our audience here will be taking questions. So think of your questions and get them ready for when we get to that part of the program. So i think probably the right place to start then as we dive into the war is so there this massive political crisis in the United States with the election of lincoln and do you have a sense of how the responded to that . Absolutely. So respond in some ways like their neighbors, but in other ways differently from from from their neighbors so as economic or as people have come looking for economic opportunity, they are as many other americans at the time are deeply unsettled by the prospect america coming apart at the seams. These are people whove whove, you know, crossed the atlantic have taken this great risk in so this bet on americas future and the prospect of of or political instability the possibility again to particularly from Central Europe knowing that political instability revolution transit of these these moments of crisis produce problems for. This is familiar them these are people whove lived through the of failed revolutions in Central Europe of 1848. So so again theyre perhaps of a particular worry about, you know, what will this mean for for , for themselves as,. And so certainly, you know, this is on their minds. And likewise in terms their politics is interesting as well. These are people who, for the most part are living in with those who live in cities, who live in new york, for example, live in cities . The dominant politics is, the politics of the Democratic Party party, which is in opposition to lincoln and the Democratic Party has a very immigrant support base, includes including. And again, theres a and many come to share the politics of Democratic Party. Again we see some who are drawn to lincoln very early are drawn to the message of the Republican Party, who ideologically committed to the Republican Party. But again, they seem be relatively exceptional. The Jewish Population of the time. And again have particular particular positions on on some of the Major Political issues of the time as well. Thats obviously the the the the single greatest cause the civil war is slavery is the question of of whether what what role should slavery have in the future of the United States and a again have very particular experience of this because the abolitionists and the Abolitionist Movement, which is a very active in the 1840 and 1950s derives much of its energy and leadership from evangelical christians from those see this as a religious and political cause combined and a number of those key Leaders Within the Abolitionist Movement are involved at the same time in efforts to convert to christianity and this is deeply troubling to this this and this this sense that the Abolitionist Movement is a perhaps contains within it some form of of of of of threat or fear for african. So we see a gain of wariness when it comes to relating to abolitionism. But again, the picture is more complicated. We see certainly some , particularly those who are active in the failed revolutions of 1848. These ideological immigrants who arrive, they are some of them at least, are drawn to abolitionists, abolitionists as well. But for the most part, this tremendous difference and uncertainty about the war and what will this mean for . Not just for the for as , but also as citizens of america more broadly, i also think of how have families on sides of the divide. And so how they during the war have to craft the letters that get through, how they have to, you know, kind of not talk about politics if they want to preserve the family unity. So lincoln issues a call to arms. April 1861. And how did the and here kind of zoom compare it jewish responses to those of other americans so theres certainly so the start of the war in of 1861 has this electrified an effect on on on the north on the union that we see many of those who prior to this point in time harbor uncertainty about. Its about the prospect of america coming apart the prospect war. If is transformed by the firing on on fort sumter in Charleston Harbor and we exactly the same effect on a population too and thats the single largest number who enlist in the army enlist in april of 1861. So that same you know and flocking to the flag that same desire to to to fight for for the preservation of the union and but its very much that focus the desire to to save the union and this is a again , as most , i think, hold this in common with other immigrants in in northern cities, for example, with the irish and germans, etc. This sense that that this is a war for union and not necessarily a war against slavery against jewish soldiers will change their mind in some cases during the war itself, but certainly that sense of of of of rallying around the flag and patriots in in 1861 in particular. But there is one important difference which quickly becomes apparent here we can look at at some of our slides as well i think its the the third slide i would like to to to show you over here and its one of the features which becomes dominant very very quickly when it comes to in particular is the emergence early in the war really in the summer of 61, the wars only been going for for a handful of months. A the emergence of antisemitism in American Society. And this gain sets apart from other immigrant groups that that yes there is some anti irish and antigerman sentiment but but at much of that is is delayed until that that certainly theres instead quite positive sentiment towards irish and german recruits early in the war when it comes to , there are two motifs to themes which emerge at very very quickly. One of those motifs, its actually go to the next slide. Well talk these these men in the second and youll see, i think, in the next slide, a cartoon and here you go, cartoon, which really reflect this whaimescribing, the sense that this argument which is made in the present brief in a very public way, that prefer profits to patriotism, that they are shirking and they arent up in sufficient numbers because prefer to to profit off the war effort. This is a purely a canard this is theres no basis in reality to this but this certainly affects how come to feel and think about the war relatively early on that they receiving this hostile treatment on the home front this is going to affect whether you decide to enlist so theres certainly this motif and then in the next slide, a second and related a motif antisemitic motif which emerges early in the war as well. Again, in 1861. And this is the idea that a involved in particular in cooking the the army in terms supplying substandard goods, that theyre involved in what comes to be described as shoddy and shoddy, actually a technical term which describes a wool which has been recycled wool fiber, which has been recycled and is typically used as insulation for clothing, its not something youd want to weave a uniform for, for soldiers to wear. But again, because of the urgency and demand that the the army produces, as it grows rapidly scotland size in 1861 a number of unscrupulous contract is a see opportunity in producing uniforms which are out of shoddy are made out of this this fabric which should not be used for for for outfitting troops. And there are these scandalous reports in the press in 61, which describes soldiers who are in the field and its a rainstorm and they theyre in a jackets and pants collapse, disappear in the rain. And i left, you know, but in the field and whetr this is. An exaes were not probably somewhat to exaggerate it but but certainly this idea that there are these shoddy racts taking advantage of of the government and also a taking advantage of the sacrifice of soldiers in the field. This idea takes and the press begins to use the term and contractor during. 1861. And again this will have an effect who otherwise eagerly witness for the army begin to say, wait a second, why we enlist when we theres this drumbeat of prejudice on the home front, which is which is questioning our motives, questioning our our patriotism. This, by the way, as an is where we get the term shoddy from that we know it is a term referring to substandard goods, but it really emerges in this way. In 1861, as as applied to, it leaps from it being a technical term into a a term more broadly used. And this sets apart from other immigrant groups, from particularly the irish, germans and scandinavians who who are going to encounter prejudice during the war. But later in the war, typically. In 1863, theres a a variety of reasons. Theres a a wave of prejudice directed at the German Community that at the irish community, that experienced this earlier and in, again, a decision to enlist early on in the war. Whats so striking about youre discovering this as especially in the moment were all living in today in the states is is this notion that like you said and contract are synonymous and you know weve heard recently all sorts converts about and something being, you know, controlling particular industries. So were seeing that theme emerging, you know, more than 150 years ago. Its really shocking, really incredibly shocking. So we know that that germans and scandinavians, their own units and, we know that there have been various statements made that there were jewish units, but youre able to debunk that. Can you tell us . Absolutely. So lets go to the first slide. And in the second slide, as well as so. Theyre the first line in particular is a very striking slide and has been in some ways misinterpreted. The first line is of a a flag a from a richmond, which is raised in syracuse, new in august and september october of 1862, sits at the timing here is significant this is after a really disastrous a summer for the union army that it suffered enormous casualties at the end etim and elsewhere and there is a drive raise new regiments to to replenish the the enormous losses of on the battlefield and the flag is a regimental flag from the 149th york infantry a regiment which is again its a voluntary unit that these are people theres no conscription at this point in time. But is a threat of conscription. There is again the prospect that if they arent sufficient voluntary enlist enlistees that conscription or some form of coercion and might be imposed and the flag is donated by the jewish as it describes a jewish of syracuse to 149th infantry regiment. D and thats been by a historian sie then as reflting the the the claim is then 249 infantry is is clearly therefore a jeshegiment or perhaps has a Jewish Company in a regiment is really the based units of the of the union army, typically a thousand sometimes 1200 men. The accompany would have 100 men. And so the claim is that this is either sometimes some some historians climate jewish regiments, sometimes it has a a Jewish Company. And look at the flag clear demonstration. Heres the flag behind me over here. Likewise theres a richmond, illinois, the 82nd illinois infantry, which also has jewish sponsorship that there are again in the Jewish Community, raises money for for that regiment and as with the 149 infantry in new york, we see the jewish rallying around this regiment that if example, in syracuse at the local rabbi holds recruiting in the synagogue and they are all sorts of other figures who come to to to the synagogue to to really preach in favor of if and trying to encourage people to this volunteer at richmond. But in reality even the 149th infantry only about 20 are in this entire regiments. So yes, do sponsor regiment and this is typical of overall t of religious and other organizations sponsor arrangements or sponsor companies. So all sorts of of organizations are doing this. And the Jewish Community doing it in, in chicago with the 82nd illinois, theyre doing it in new york as. Well, but only 20 out of roughly a thousand men within the regiment are. Second is one company which does, as i said, most of those serve within. But the reality is that that they are no regiments and no companies in entire union army with make up a majority of of the soldiers and this again to get your is different from ethnic and immigrant groups that the dominant experience is serving in relative isolation thats they are we know again from the chapelle roster that in at least 293 regiments in the union but in only 25 actually slightly less than 25 arrangements. So we have more than ten serving instead half of all serve in an arrangement where they are they are in a formal a for other in their regiments. So the domination is isolation is being alone or with maybe or two other in your whereas for other immigrant groups irish scandinavians more typically serve in in regiments where the dominant ethos is is either german or irish. All scandinavia having some ethnic genuine ethnic arrangements or even when there arent in ethnic have a cohort. Others who share their same with them and this has particular implications for in particular because if you are in a relatively isolated, it means its much more difficult to to live as a within army that you have in fewer potential friends and comrades in arms who are jewish to. And also it means that encountering adversity it means that you often do this or with very few others to it, to assist you. And this again sets apart from from other groups. And this again, why is this the case . Why are why is this pattern different for than other groups . And a number of factors at work here. One is that dispersion which i described earlier, the fact that in 1860 live in small towns across america which means that regiments raised locally theyre raised towns and cities across country. And in many of these towns, cities, there are a handful of , as i say. So those who join up going to again perforce be a minority of small within the arrangements. Thats one factor. And another a very important factor here, too, is that it when it comes to particularly the german and irish community, they are local political leaders, the immigrant community who become ethnic champions for their regiments. You see opportunity in israel easing regiments in supporting regiments. I see it as a very important way of of staking claim for immigrants in American Society at that so therefore creating german irish regiments and we dont see the same phenomenon within the Jewish Community for a variety of reasons, partly of the antisemitism that we spoke about earlier, that that a number of jewish leaders are very worried about what the war means for Jewish Community. And likewise a very diffident about sending encouraging jewish men to enlist in army where they were going to be isolate where they might encounter antisemitism, where they are to be serving in relatively isolated and likewise also just a number of key Jewish Communal leaders in 1860 are generally just very weary of the war as well. So if you dont see that encouragement of the that we see with other ethnic groups in america, so its so striking is because of that isolation and the antisemite ism that you found that the Union Soldiers adopts tactics that we know american use later on in the 20th century to not be marked out as. You talk about that. Absolutely. And the next slide is, again a very unusual and revealing example of this. So a number of jewish men who do enlist will adopt aliases or will will sometimes to conceal their identities as sometimes for other ass, as well. In fact, one more one more slide. This fact, i will talk about but i regiment where wherehe colonel is jewish and that theres no hiding of his jewishness. Then the next slide is is an example of someoneho goes to great pains, great efforts to to conceal his identity. Is a figure that you mentioned earlier really a larger than life character is in fact, of twhers herhe image on your left these are that you stacie brothers. Th a originally from from from hungary at the at one on a soldier on your right is frederick. And then the one on your left is his brother, Karl Frederick raises regiment. This is the and a poster behind me here. Its on your right of a regimental recruiting poster which is psted all over new york. To immigrants, where its the is that it will create a reflecting a really polyglot collection of different immigrant. So therell be a kind of it, as it says, italians, hungarians, germans, french patriots. You should up for this regiment and. Itll be led by this dashing a colonel. Do you stay as you claims to to have been a great hero, a military hero from from hungary claims to have to be an aristocrat, a to be a a mast a swordsman to have to have have be a master horseman, to be a dancing master, someone who a command of of a of multiple languages, etc. So and a lot of the the appeal of this regiment is connected with its colonel and its a richmond which, as you can see from his uniform, a rather elaborate over the top uniform, which designed by Frederick Stacey and with sorts of of of gold thread, etc. Its quite over the top. And again appeals appealing to to the ego you might say of a potential enlistees that this is going to be a dashing regiment to to to join and in the the regiment does fact go marching off of to war. But rumors soon began begin to circulate at that. Frederick, do you start to see might not be who he seems to be and one of these regiment one of these rumors which no one takes seriously at the time is that is the is the scandalous claim that hes not actually a aristocrat that hes not dancing master and master swordsman and etc. That instead hes a jewish hostile from from poor pressburger. And but this rumor is to ridiculous for anyone to take seriously because you can believe some of the other rumors about about him that hes a martinet, that hes possible to get on with it, feuds with his officers, etc. , etc. But the fact that he might be a , thats surely an unbelievable. But it turns out we again through our research and and have have identified this before as well that these larger than life rumors are indeed true that this is that the frederick stasi was David Strasser probably hostile a from from hungary who had reinvented himself had had established this elaborate and wonderful identity for himself. See he came to to america so he is is a a larger life and example hes a fabulous tv and i invented this whole character for himself which out not to be true in fact hes career is disastrous too. Hes it turns out not to be a particularly successful a colonel as well. He he lands up quite soon after in sing sing prison and you know again he reputation destroyed he tries to recover his reputation after the war has his inventions continue. He later reinvents himself as a general, etc. But but more common amongst jewish soldiers, again, amongst minority of jewish soldiers, but certainly a pronounced phenomenon is is taking of aliases, is taking of of identities to conceal all their their sometimes that background. Sometimes theyre the immigrant, too. And and this is quite widespread amongst amongst jewish soldiers. Sometimes they take german names, sometimes they take wonderfully american name sort of fantasy names, which i as soon as they open their mouths, these immigrants are german speaking it be clear that theyre not, you know, at smith that they really are from from bavaria or somewhere somewhere else. But again its it does give a sense of of their concern soon before they enlist about what they might experience this concern perhaps its better and not to to openly our jewishness as soldiers at this this thats explanation. The other one is that these are immigrants who have had to reinvent themselves already america that there is wonderful opportunity as immigrants to to create a new life for yourself and not be tied necessarily to your european past. And i think it also it in part emerges out of that well that the the wonderful creativity and opportunity and anonymity of of being a creating a life yourself in america and then creating an identity for your identity for the self in the army as well. I love i love the story about about the horse dealer. I just think its amazing and it is one of, you know, one of the things that your work with the chappelle foundation made possible to discover this and a real but then your larger point is were essentially changing names and of course we know in the 20th century from our colleague carson from nicklauss work, this is something that american , when they need to mask their whether its because in your example because of their isolated because theyre afraid of antisemitism or because of the antisemitism of the 20th entry, its really Start Playing intervention into the historiography to trace it all the way all the way back. So so were talking about a kernel. So i want to ask you about, as you know, one of my favorite characters in your book and in his letters is colonel Marcus Spiegel. And i think would be really interesting to hear a little bit about, about how you have amplified what we knew about him from the letters that he wrote to Marcus Spiegel again is a an immigrant someone who is making a life for himself in america in. The 1850s, he marries a quaker carolyn and in the late 1850s, they are trying to establish themselves in a relatively small town. Then on the railway line in in ohio, in, in the big and a he someone who in initially is is very about enlistment again he lives in a in an area county which is deeply deeply democratic we know in fact he shares comes to share politics of his neighbors as well he he corresponds with them and the local press at during during the war but he decides to enlist ultimately for very prosaic and thats the war is devastating at two to his business he has misfortune of having bought property to have invested heavily in property in establishing a warehouse just before the hes hoping to to to trade seemingly in in wool and other things which are in a raised in the area. But his timing is bad and he ultimately is a way obliged to enlist who he comes to see enlistment as his out of of this crisis. So this personal crisis on this front in this devastating potential of of the war that hes going to go bankrupt because the war promises a number things it promises. Firstly in ohio, what was described as the stay laws that if you enlist bankruptcy proceedings proceed against you as such. So this protects him and his investment against ruin, financial. The other attraction for him as it is with many other soldiers at the time, is the promise a steady paycheck that the the both the bonus which the military pays when soldiers enlist and the of steady wages is attractive to him and initially he seeks what it what are described as its described as a bomb proof job he wants to potentially become the quarter within within the regiment which is raised in part in the town which in which he lives because again hes he. Yes. He hes a patriot. And yes, he he and he sees he wants to preserve the union. But he has these more prosaic reasons why hes bicyclists enlists lameness. But then whats striking which which comes clear from his letters which he writes his wife in his wonderful collection letters which which got that which we have his letters to her. We dont, unfortunately her letters back to him. But you can really hear her voice in a way, in in his responses what we see is his transformation that this immigrant initially and i once say a job comes to to relish military life and comes actually discover he has quite a lot of skill in command being a man in the field. He doesnt fact become the quartermaster. Instead, he becomes an officer, and then he rises through ranks within his his regiment. And and we see the tone of, his letters changing. Initially, hes assuring his quaker wife that im going to leave the army as soon as ive secured our financial position, as soon as im. We saved enough money, ill get out. And then those promises to to become less and, less frequent. And instead you can hear her, in a way, her responses to him in how hes hes writing to and he says in a bit i yes he wants to to continue to make money to to earn these these these wages. But the he has a duty to his men and and he has a duty to to the cause as well. And we hear more and more of that and as in way there the argument proceeds over and then years that thats shes urging him clearly to come back home and and he he resists and increasingly the call of duty is is very very important to him and again his richmond he turns out as i describe to be a very fine officer in his regiment, though, you know, does encounter tremendous adversity theres a richmond which is is part of the the the efforts capture vicksburg and has spends months in appalling conditions in the mud of the Mississippi River. The banks of the Mississippi River where his men are dropping like flies through disease. The terrible conditions that theyre encountering and and again hes very hostile initially to to lincoln and the Republican Party and a fair amount of of the sort of racism we see commonly amongst democrats the time as well that that that really again he responds very negatively to the emancipation proclamation for example. But then again theres a transformation that as he spends more time campaigning in mississippi again as grant in particular becomes more and more successful we see the shifting of uses this sense that yes we need to destroy and we need to punish the south in particular for for dragging us into war by destroying slavery as well so again these interesting shifts within this this individual unfortunately his story is a tragic one ultimately that he late in the war relatively late in war is on a vessel which is ambushed and and he is hes killed in the in the bombardment. Hes who is with him survives spends then a lengthy period as a prisoner. And it has been their dream the two brothers that they will establish themselves in business after the war they were ten up to two ohio and will make their fortune and the brother does in do this exactly this thats joseph speak who goes back to a high ultimately establishes the Spiegel Catalog companies that becomes tremendously successful but thats but his his brother the officer marcus is is now remembered for letters these wonderful letters which he he shares with his and i should remind everyone that his wife converted to judaism. We have her conversion certificate i think its the of the first the oldest conversion certificate we have in in the United States. And after hes killed in battle and he leaves her four children if i remember the number correctly she ends up she has two she gets a soldiers pension. She gets a pension. The government. This is the first time that the federal government pays pensions to widows. But but thats enough to make ends meet. And so she up running a kosher boarding house. So that may amazing story and your right you can you can see her anguish in his answers you can actually like almost hear the questions that shes so how did the the war so it quite question how did remember the war very differently in north and south and we see in in the confederacy or in the states which had been a part of the confederacy after the war where develop their own version, the lost cause, their own celebration of of particularly those who have fallen in battle. So her martyrology a and of grand monuments at at cemeteries in richmond and elsewhere. So so a distinct pattern in the south, but the north is more a complicated. Instead we see something very strike which i again spend much time looking at the jewish press and all sorts of others and unexpected. This transformed of war at this war where you have numbers of have fought have come back now as veterans after that that these veterans would occupy significant positions within the Jewish Community that they their service would be a matter of of pride the matter of celebration of the war would be spoken in in a variety ways. And instead its the general pattern is exactly the opposite that for at least two decades after the war we see not complete but certainly in much of the north a i think a discomfort with the war and a real desire to move on and not to talk about the past. And i think it connects with my theories of connects things weve spoken about already, which is the fact the war generates at this extremely aggressive, uncomfortable form. I think a new of antisemitism in American Society. Its not something which , again, want to think about that they want to gain focus on on the future so they are these wartime episodes which others have written about very, very well. Example general france and what was number 11 other moments in the war which are deeply troubling produce. So really a desire to to to focus on the future its only then much much later in the primary in the 1890 is at that in the north will come to to to remember the war and you. And if in we go to my last slide youll see exactly this. Its strikingly in the 1890s that a Veterans Organization is created, the Hebrew Union Veterans association is created and a of remembering and celebrating the war emerges. And again, i think thats about is that in 1890s are moments vast jewish immigration america from Eastern Europe likewise a moment where antisemitism is becomes again a very considerable probl iAmerican Society. So herweee a this is israel isaacs whos very active both in the grand ar othe republic is the the general you know, a general vera organization which is very powerful, important amic society. This is hiweing the uniform of, the grand army of the republic. But also hes a formative figure the creation of a jis civilar Veterans Association as well. And can see examples here of all of the medals which the memrs of the Hebrew Union Veterans association will and wear proudly as well. But is a phenomenon, as i described, of really the 1890s and afterwards in response as said, im suggesting a two to this wave antisemitism in the 1890s claiming that these knew from Eastern Europe who are to america shows that these newcomers can never become proper citizens. It is something inimical between. Being a and being a citizen and what better to prove jewish . To prove that can be good citizens . And by pointing to the civil war, to jewish, pointing to a record which of of all service which actually hasnt been spoken about for the two decades preceding that point in time. So i have more, but we have a whole stack and theyre really good. So im going to im going to turn to some of them. So first one is to give some combats stories showing firsthand how experienced the war absolutely so there are again wonderful accounts for those who are interested of precisely this that thats both, again, letters and diaries which describe the experience of of being a soldier. The field. And i can give you an example from again, Marcus Spiegel, who he spoke about earlier that hes writing to his wife about about his experience and about again, what a deep impression that it makes him, that he describes his first battle, which is in the shenandoah valley, and how he remembers. In fact, he writes to a year later describing the battle to him. House. He describes it as being stuck in his memory, how he has a powerful, both visual and oral memory of the experience. So, so what he describes is how again on the day of the battle he is eating his his his soup and theres a sudden cold arms. And he writes her a year later again, that might be very jewish response to the experience. He writes her about having to to discard his soup i think initially runs with his his container of soup but then has to to ditch it has to throw it aside. And then this again, the deep impression of forming lines, forming into into his Richmond Company companies coming coming together and the experience of of a charger and with artillery fired at them. And again interesting references to to to to manhood as well that this again a one of the motivations for soldiers is to prove your manhood to establish womanhood again reflecting the broader at the moment in time and describing others are quaking at the the incoming fuselage and of shells and bullets being fired at them. And the the the the sound he describes of of a of someone directly behind who is who shot and again, it sticks in his memory. But again, this description of exhilaration and of of then charging at the enemy. So so so we do have these these accounts. And ill give you one other example of precisely that. The man who graces cover of the book, edward sullivan. Again, a fascinating figure who is exactly the opposite of the stacy brothers, who i describe to earlier. This is someone who begins with a very humble start in order to be humble starting in the army begins as a junior officer again proves himself in battle and then has an almost excess like experience of forrest gump, like experience in the in the army where in a number key moments he comes ultimately to command effectively command his his regimen and is very able in command and again again i was reading accounts of key battles both in campaign for atlanta so hes under general sherman his regiments under general sherman and then in the march to, the sea and the campaign in the carolinas, these are key campaigns during war that his key and his richmond at critical moments the battle in some case to turn the tide. Theres this again you know the those whove written accounts of these battles arent noting this commonality. But but he this seemingly preternatural ability to he and his regiment to be there at the critical moment as so in a number of battles. They they charge at exactly the right moment to to save the union line or to to or to turn the tide. And so, again, there are plenty of examples off of this. And likewise, you know, again, when it comes to to every day experience of a battle, then are, for the most part, like everyone else that they are. Some are heroic in the ways i describe in many others, all ordinary soldiers without particularly distinguished military careers. So we were talking before about writing letters on because the families are divided. So weve specific question, which is, are there are there stories about jewish families who have sons fighting on both sides and i should tell everyone that adam is also writing his next book is going to be the the civil, the and the civil war. But in the south. So im sure youve lots of ideas about this. Absolutely. So absolutely something that we have very good numbers about. Exactly how many a jewish families are divided into whites have both brothers on either side. Many examples of a cousins brother in laws, etc. , and in army. And again, this is particularly troubling for. This is an unusual example for at this point in time at least of of of this experience. So we certainly will see in particular in the first world war. Again, this is phenomenon. But and is, as i said, troubling. Theres this idea the will be potentially firing at each other. And its both a to it. We have example of, again, a working hard to verify this examples at the moment. But bet claims that one brother is involved in the in the capture of the other brother and examples of that but theres a quite elaborate its say mythical literature around this too that stories of a jewish soldiers supposedly deliberately fire the air so that they because they want to avoid potentially shooting family members the other side or jewish soldiers who recite the shamar and i before entering into that again with in part because of the fear that they that they might be encountering a family or loved ones and this again explains in part why jewish leaders at the time and a number of the key figures within the Jewish Community. Its a community which were in the communities and key preeminent figures are a an orthodox rabbi in isaac lisa and a reform rabbi in in cincinnati. Isaac meyer. Why is one of the reasons why again, they harbor such different feelings about the war comes to exactly this that they are so worried that the war is dividing america and jewry and also dividing families as well. And so mentioned the sherman, one of the topics that we didnt talk about before and it is one of the questions that we have here. What about jewish religious observance . Absolutely. So we can i can show you a slide here, which speaks to exactly this. Its its a cartoon which a very unusual cartoon of a since to a an illustrated by an anonymous as the cartoon says, a hebrew volunteer. And its a cartoon where the the editors of the newspaper printed without any comment its a cartoon of of the of a connection of of pigs and with the the implied message behind it or the clear message behind it is that this is one of the sacrifices that jewish soldiers have to make, is existing with an army, with a diet, very, very heavy on pork and where it soldiers are eating pork in every single possible variety on a daily basis that the die consists a heart attack. It consists heavy go behind me. It consists of of a salt pork of of an and and and of beef but but a pork is a is a you cannot your diet. Cult to avoid within so so this a cartn which in effect is commenting on exactly this so its quartermaster ly sketched by hebrew volunteer the statement obviously being this is one of the sacrifices you have to make. One of the challenges you encounter as jewish soldier is is that is your diet . And again, jewish soldiers are foraging like everyone else. Theyre trying to supplement their diet. But in essence, its almost impossible to exist in the army without being obliged to eat and to eat. But again, Marcus Spiegel, i described earlier one of his wonderful with his wife is about food. Soldiers then are now obsessed with with food. Their diet is largely unvarying. Theyre bored with what . Eating theyre perpetually hungry. So he said he and others are sending letters home, implore bring their families to send them food, a trunks of from, from home and other goods from home to to make their lives that much more bearable. And theres a lovely again exchange hes writing to carolyn, urging her to to send both alcohol to again and make his life more bearable, but also and, you know, food, jewish food from home, too, which which is clearly a lusting after is lovely. Then his much anticipated sign of the arrival of a trunk, all these food stuffs which is lusting after and he then describes to her how wonderful it is to to eat a pickled tongue on the march and again news to me thats pickled that tongue is i know is a jewish one that became a german delicacy but presumably its just something deeply appealing to him. So its the soldiers that are doing this when it comes jewish soldiers and are doing this when it comes to food. But they are we have letters of jewish soldiers who are writing to to rabbis, writing to jewish newspapers, requesting prayer books, requesting other jewish ritual objects so that they can try and and worship as within the army requesting much from from as well. Theres a again, a a wonderful account of a pesach site, a passover seder in the wilds of west virginia. Again, trying to to cling to a jewish identity in, the army, which is very, very difficult to do because of that isolation. I about earlier the fact that these jewish are at best have a handful of other jewish soldiers around them. And again its an army which makes relatively few allowances for religion more broadly. Again, yes, supposedly on sunday there is allowance for for the christian sabbath and. Some, but not all regiments will have a a chaplain. So so its yes, there are allowances, particularly for for christian soldiers. But jewish soldiers, its its you know, that isolation is very difficult. Particular with a religion which is so much centered on the home and on family and on practice being in an army where you going to be isolated but the best of times and very, very few around you, it means that its very, very difficult to be a. So one of the questions we have in we havent talked about yet is we know that during the civil this is the moment when judah are allowed to become military chaplains. And you found some information that has revised how we understand that story. So do you want to talk about that . Absolutely. So, in fact, we can i can show slides related to exactly this is the second slide. This is a a raised by colonel max freedmans raised in pennsylvania. He got this this is the reuiting poster, the regiment. This is a an image, a photograph of the camp, an encampment of of thpesylvania cavalry, the cameron the a after e time whos from of of of war pennsylvania. Well and max friedman does is common for those raising regiments in the early stages of the war in particular which is to to recruit heavily officers certainly amongst friends, family and, those acquaintances. So it means that thats amongst the officers. They are a number of , including, again, this is typical of the time. Theres a fair amount of cronyism, nepotism and including are there family members who are officers within the regiment to . Hes a hes involved as i describe in the prewar militia in pennsylvania. Hes not the only whos a officer in the prewar militia who raises theres another enrichment, which is by a as well in, pennsylvania at the time. And this regiment, though, is unusual in that it selects as its chaplain men the name of Michael Allen, who has some religious backgrounds, not a rabbi. Hes but hes clearly and ive a religious man and familiar with with with jewish law as well. And we have whats extraordinary Michael Allen again he so so short period of time for reasons are describing the second but we have his his diary which describes whats what he what hes up to this is read in september of around september 1861 and chapter chapmans is relatively ill defined at this point in time so hes hes giving sermons or ecumenical sermons on a on a regular basis to regiment me we have copies of some of his sermons and they they arent about jewish sermons they really and because the soldiers in this regiment are mostly christians and hes speaking to a broad audience and and also we know that this regiments initially near d. C. Washington so there we know that he spends a fair amount of time in washington and he for example he once in the high holidays he wants to to be in washington at two to in a worship with other with other. But his military career ultimately is cut short. He resigns and again, a debate why exactly he resigns after. Its its a little more than a month in the service as chaplain and the interesting story that emerges afterwards that very quickly at a rabbi in new york a whos soon to lose his he knows that his contract is coming to an end there hes not he doesnt have rabbinic ordination. Hes someone whos serving effectively. Shazam within a congregation. Hes clearly gets wind that he is that is that this position is available and he then applies for the position. But his time is is is bad because no sooner does he apply for this position then the the the which, which regulates the chaplaincy says that a chaplain to be of a christian denomination is enforced exclude him from this rolls in essence he applies for the position and then he cannot fill it because hes a hes not hes not a christian. Hes not a christian minister. Hes clearly at jewish and has a jewish religious training. And this becomes then a celeb. This is picked up by the crusading editor of, a new york newspaper, horace greeley, and and becomes then something which is reported on broadly in the newspaper historians since this episode have thought that this was a test case of thought that this is a max friedman jewish colonel commanding a richmond has purposefully selected this individual to apply for the chaplains in order to to to to create a test case which will then force the government to to change the law, force congress to change the law. What, again, digging has established that one of the the i spent a lot of time doing this work for the book. What what becomes clear is that actually max friedman doesnt know about this doesnt know about application for the chaplain and for other quite complicated reasons he want attention to be drawn to richmond and he quickly goes to a newspaper in washington, d. C. The time to to say, wait a second, we have nothing to our richmond has nothing to do with this man. We have not out the appointment of this of this individual as a chaplain, and they arent more than 20 in our entire core never mind in our regiment again. The story does not well for max frequently either of the parties of the man whos applied for the the unofficial has applied for this position as chaplain. He does not become chaplain. He he ultimately will leave and go back to to holland, where hes from but hes remembered for for failing to become chaplain with this arrangement and max friedman, the reason probably that he doesnt want attention to be drawn to his is that he is doing what a lot of other colonels are doing at the time, which hes padding his regimental rolls. There are lots of phantom soldiers, his regiment that theyre probably collecting rations and and and wages for soldiers who arent really there. He doesnt want all this attention drawn to his regiment because potentially going to be very embarrassing and career also will end in disgrace. Exactly this reason that he he very soon after also leave the regiment for iraq because theres this scandal attached to what hes been up to. Again, as i said, this is fairly common practice. The time, unfortunately. But again, this this so what i argue is that the chaplaincy has been somewhat misremembered, that its seen as an by historians as a test case of trying to change the law and using honored official in this way it turns out its probably more of an accidental a story the law ultimately is changed both because of the intervention the Jewish Community that there is lobbying an to change the law and lincoln ultimately but not quite in the way that the heroic way that the story has previously been told it it its such a powerful story about how what we were talking about antisemitism in the civil and weve been talking about about individuals soldiers but this is a moment when antisemitism rises. But its also a moment for, whatever reason, win another right in the United States. And its of stunning. So we have like a few minutes left. So im going to take the last question. What can you tell us about the next book about the confederacy . Absolutely. And i have to speak to your last point very very quickly before i answer your question. I think that you know, one of the legacies of the war, as we suggested is, is the emergence of of of a new of antisemitism, American Society, which will have long term consequences for american. I think the other one is something that youve just towards now to that because of this adverse experience during the war because of and antisemitism and because of variety of pressures on during the war, we see emerging. I argue after the war is new form of american identity. American that prior the war we have a a Diverse Community of a disparate community where you have immigrants from a variety of different places who often think of themselves as bavarians or think of themselves as haitians or, etc. But there isnt necessarily a form of American Jewish identity which emerges. And i think one of the things that the world and in the cauldron of war it does create the sense of a need for a common American Jewish identity. And again, partly driven by this adversity, but also i think by the sense that again, theres strength in solidarity as well. And how weve won rights for ourselves during the war by by banding. So i think thats, again, something very important which which comes from again, your question about the confederacy is something ive been thinking a tremendous amount about, sort of how does the jewish experience the confederacy different in a variety of, again, perhaps surprisingly, there are many fewer living in the confederacy. In 1861, probably 25,000 living in the states, which comprise the confederacy had, 25,000 living in the union. But it again, the the roster is still working the confederacy at the moment. So the chapelle foundation is still very much working on trying to find more jewish confederates and but, but in terms of total numbers, it probably will be almost equal and perhaps who enlist in the army than in the union army and again, thats for for a variety of reasons. Its not necessarily the are all committed the confederacy. I think its in part because it becomes very serve in the Confederate Army that the at the conscription becomes increasingly restrict as the war goes on and there are tremendous pressures on and others in the confederacy as so certainly in terms of one of the striking features is numbers. And another striking again in fact relates to a topic just spoken about, which is antisemitism, that, yes, there is antisemitism in the confederacy and and it takes somewhat different forms from that in the union that particular features which we in the confederacy, which are which are a different. But but again, one of the striking differences is that the union army, we see key generals, we see grant and sherman and butler, who are all very signifier figures and who who openly espouse deeply antisemitic views and use language, which is shocking then shocking even more so now. And again, its all sort of reasons why this is the case. They partly what we spoke about much earlier the broader mood within american. So and this is plays out in general orders in a general grants general orders number etc. But in the Confederate Army we see a different example. We see in fact. Robert e lee again bending backwards at various points in time to accommodate. Again, the rabbi key rabbi in richmond writes to lee on a number of occasions requesting that confederate soldiers be allowed to leave their positions around richmond to to worship all of their services and he very politely its sort of really i suppose its an example of diplomatic charm that he refuses but in the most and a winning and i but another more telling example that theres an appeal the same rabbi to to to lee requesting a jewish soldier who whos an immigrant who has deserted his post in battle that and hes been sentenced to to be executed as a deserter that he should be forgiven for this act because. Hes an immigrant because hes he doesnt speak good english, etc. , etc. And again, this clemency is granted by by by lee. And again, its and maybe lee is exceptional in this way. Im not in any way trying to celebrate lee as as a figure is a deeply problematic figure for all sorts of reasons. But again i think that this is a different message for all sorts of reasons coming from the Confederate Army when. It comes to to to at least from, from Senior Officers within the army. Yes. Theres a strongly, very, very powerfully christian ethos within, the army. But we dont have those same examples of of an equivalent of grant making antisemitic remarks about. So i think these two ways, but also also to others, this experience is entirely different within the confederacy. So you have to promise to come back to the haberman institute when the next book is done. And would everyone please join me in thanking professor Adam Mendelsohn thank you