Mediterranean 600 migrants drowned in the 1st half of this year alone after a 2 week standoff with italian authorities who were blocking access to ports a german rescue ship last week forced its way into the port of lampedusa leading to the prompt arrest of the captain migrants seeking entry to the u. S. Also face dangers including cramped and unhygienic conditions in Holding Camps along the southern border with mexico trapped refugees rescued forbidden title this week on quadriga and here are our guests ana Maria Alvarez from costa rica is a refugee activist and founder of the migration hub she says we dont combat irregular migrants by letting them die while crossing borders we do it by offering safe and regulated top ways and figure migratory policies both for the country and for those migrating. Works the whole university and shes an expert on migration issues she says humanitarian rhetoric alone doesnt make humanitarian policy the u. S. And the e. U. Migration policies are more similar than we may think. And its a pleasure to welcome other laming back to the program he works for the daily newspaper to target and he says we will only achieve a humane european refugee policy if e. U. Citizens set europe has had to tighten its borders in order to prevent right wing populist from gaining the upper hand so they let me start out by asking you about the numbers that were seeing as i mentioned this is in fact the biggest wave of refugees worldwide on record since the 2nd world war why is that and must we expect this trend in fact to continue rising. Its indeed the case that the refugee influx to europe has been unprecedented since world war 2 but the reasons are very diverse we see people fleeing from war but also people searching for opportunities in europe so. Theres on the one hand the intensification of war and conflict in the middle east and hardships in south america that lead to large movements of people but theres also Economic Development in africa that lead to an increase in the number of migrants arriving from there and also crossing the mediterranean through libya. Those who advocate tighter borders often see refugees as people who are making an economic choice basically looking for a better life those who advocate doing more to open borders to receive them typically see refugees as victims for example of conflict environmental disaster and so on weve just heard its a lot more complicated than that what does that mean for policy well actually just sort of correctly right i mean we have to make a distinction between it was a refugee and was an Asylum Seeker and was actually looking for a little comical opportunity to write so we have to distinguish that in the 1st place and yes of course especially when when when when we talk about whats happening to them littering and then people fleeing especially from libya these days i mean just i guess was just a right to strike happened and killed 4040 people in a migrant camp in libya so so of course its just right so what it means for policy means that many countries have signed up and has committed to this Global Compact recently which is basically to safeguard and try to try to prevent people from dying from the sea and that to be. Creating more safe pathways for my us to calm all of us lee conscious like you tell ya straus travelling United States where do i want schools whose sign up is a Global Company for example a a solution of course not but its a commitment from this companies to strengthen and actually basically to take care of the pathways of migrants and when theyre migrating both as you pointed out with your Opening Statement time migrant sentiment essentially zina phobia often has become a driving force for right wing populism in europe but if you look at this distance just to stick rich europe has taken in only 16 percent of the total number of people who are fleeing its actually poor african and middle Eastern Countries that have taken in the vast bulk of migrants worldwide is that fair. It might be fair and i mean youre completely correct i mean the syrian. Migrants from syria they basically are in turkey in jordan and in the bottom i think 6 millions of us have millions of them on these 3 countries combined so if you compared to these 3 countries europe as a bloc has not taken in a lot but there is a buck to it but it is you have to reconcile the humanitarian imperative to help those people with the acceptance of the local people and it seems to be looking huge part of acceptance of as you mentioned in your question the 1st part of the question and. As a consequence of this the rise of a lot of basically right wing populism in europe that the that is the consequence of an open border policy so its not a question of fairness its a question of how many could be reconciled with the societies in the states and europe so then as you implied in your Opening Statement there is a lot of humanitarian rhetoric in europe but you were essentially saying that the practice is Something Else the fact is there is a strong body of migration law in place we have rules and systems and processes for how to deal with the flow of migrants but obviously that system is broken or we wouldnt be having this conversation yes so the body of law does not reflect the political reality and this is something that i. Want to come back to which is making this connection between the influx of refugees and right wing populism is not that clear right the countries that are most opposed to it in europe namely poland and hungary theres a those of the countries that have the least influx of refugees in europe right so they they. Base there and refugee rhetoric on sort of a threat perception around refugees right and this is this is the thing that we have to tackle i dont think people are opposed to the humanitarian idea of taking in refugees i think what they are afraid of is the unregulated uncontrolled way that refugees are entering so by saying that we should not save people from the mediterranean because that will fuel right wing support i dont think is the real narrative the narrative is to bring people over to europe safely and have them vetted have them background checked and be humanitarian also in the size of migrants that we want to bring in not just saying we just shut it off in order to you know drain the right wing rhetoric thats not what we should do i think this is also not. The solution to this pressure because it is based on a threat perception rather than on reality in my opinion i want to come back to you mother i know you wanted to respond to them but lets just take a brief look at the situation in the medicare mediterranean and particularly a look at just how dysfunctional the practice there has become it was illustrated in the past few weeks when we saw a crisis that essentially pitted the captain of a german refugee ship against italys populist leader. Its nice interior minister latte or so very many nickname capitana people use this not to his love of the sea but to his strict policy on refugees. She only other one is a real captain german refugee a couple of decades many consider her here right she weeks ago she took 53 refugees able to see watch 3 and point them to italy despite being nice and she finally decided on the saturday night to enter the courts on the small italian island of lampedusa. We declared a state of necessity because the psychological situation and the humanitarian condition has been worsening so much that i cannot guarantee you the safety off the rescue people. The captain was under arrest for several days for entering the force illegally because she watched recurring to it with the Border Patrol but. Anything she should spend doing is behind bars. First there were no sense it was a criminal where like. This couple of a creator appear right over a criminal. So martha was right. The captain. Breck into or 70 but the captain is right i mean you have to save lifes point theres no discussion about it and theres no but to it theres nothing else thats a humanitarian improves if you cannot let people who are neat so theres nothing to add for it. Having said that. There is a dilemma we are facing the dilemma is you dont want to encourage people to go on a on the main on an adventurous trip that might kill you. So by saving lives sometimes just sending messages to 2 people who are coming so this is a dilemma you cannot escape just easily and saying i want to blend the consequences of it you have to save life theres no but to it but there is something that youre coaching people to go on this i want to take that point to the other guest in just a moment let me just ask you one other thing that goes back to your Opening Statement and the idea that we may have to tighten borders in order to prevent right wing populous from gaining the upper hand in fact dont actions like sell vs tightening the borders of italy in many ways feed to the kind of xena phobia that celine just described rather than actually reducing it. Its hard to say what is 1st of all the 2nd and what is the consequence of what i mean its really seems to be an example that i mean the legal nord where shes the party chief although he is again the legal note is up in the polls i think is now a support rate of 35 percent italians this is terrifying even even salvini is making all these speeches maybe hes fueling it but maybe hes just reflecting a sentiment that isnt really in italy as you mentioned the 1st place was one of the countries that most refugees came in from the mediterranean and they had a huge influx of immigrants so this is a very very complicated. Connection between what causes what there is clearly xenophobic sentiments inviting populism the test be fight you have to fight these xina for big foreign sentiments on the other hand you have to reflect that there is no consensus in the societies in europe about how many a migrants could be could be coming into one country so let me come back now to this question of incentives and disincentives because that in fact was in your Opening Statement im very that you said we wont combat illegal migration by letting people die at the borders is that in fact what you think salvia knee is doing trying to disincentive eyes people to calm and clearly you dont think it works in that case if i let my gratian of course im to like them i dont i dont think anybody is illegal but absolutely i mean what what we should not fall into again this and they have a particular agenda and they have been using i mean the United States calling in telling us well in and countries where they dont have that many refugees or are my friends coming its an agenda and we we need to find a way how we how can we deal with a Civil Society and tell them not to fall into these agenda which is do you know my. Father my grandson. Sist and basically what we should be working on and what we should be doing is to kind of bring by the dignity to migrants which weve been using in the past 3 years for political agendas so so of course hes not right and i am so so the problem here is that the more with on the discussion whether the watch did the right thing or not of course it is theres no point out of this right i mean but the process that is going to continue out of fear i dont think that he is going to stop there because i mean theyre going to continue coming and whos going to be out there whos going to rethink their. Their personal liability and and their organizations to go and continue rescuing for in sample there is a boat a german boat called un to who was just released actually i think this week after 2 years of being kept by Italian Government so they couldnt go out to operating them in the Mediterranean Sea for 2 years and we would be supporting somebody should be disorganization who are actually doing the most these said and act of humanity so let me just. Pronounce one thing i mean if you look its not just italy from finland to greece from the netherlands to denmark to fronts all these countries there have been a backlash of the 2015 backers from from governments saying they took over the the rhetoric of the right wing populist we need to secure our borders we need stricter policies and so on and so on because the pressure from all the societies were just growing on these governments so they do you have any sympathy for italys position hasnt the e. U. In many ways let italy bear the brunt of the refugee crisis at least in the mediterranean. I mean theres 2 important points that i that i think are worth making in this debate. First is i dont think this is a crisis of refugee numbers this is a crisis of refugee accommodation and refugee policy this is why we experience the backlash after 2000. 15 because the e. U. Hasnt been able to practice real solidarity and provide an infrastructure that helps countries stem the influx of migrants i dont think its americans themselves wed have to take a hard look not at securing our borders and making sure fewer migrants come we have to take a hard look at European Solidarity and how we will manage refugee influxes in the future because this is not a story that is over now this is going to be something that we will deal with in the future and if we just close our eyes and say ok if we keep the refugees outside of european borders then our problem is solved this is not the case and the 2nd point i want to make. This idea of this symbolic discussion about saving refugees from the mediterranean and this is why were incentivizing them this is closing our eyes towards the real issues that drive migration the real push factors its not the push factor or the pull factor if we say if. The real push factors our economic our security our Climate Change our Technological Progress and if we keep having those placeholder debates about a few boat saving lives which is a humanitarian imperative which you have said we stop talking about the real issues and this is what we have to fight we have to push these these place a lot of debates away and Start Talking about the real push and pull factors and this is not what we do with this. See whats debated so essentially saying that this is very much about the fact that once refugees do i arrive in europe or in the United States we are not doing enough as you said to accommodate them to integrate them to process their their asylum applications and so it interesting lee enough that actually was a point that was made by soviet in relation to the sophia missions sophia is a Naval Mission of the e. U. I think an operation since 2015 the idea was to try to stop human smuggling in the mediterranean particularly coming out of libya but elsewhere as well so has complained that the mission has turned into essentially a refugee rescue mission in which the refugees are then simply deposited on italian territory rather than being distributed across the e. U. In accordance with existing e. U. Law does he have a point. I think a few rescued 44000 people the military and. The humanitarian imperative is always so strong you say you have to rescue these people on the other hand already described what i would call the dilemma the more the you rescue the more people feel they will be rescued i think there is a potential there is even my sense of there is i mean there clearly they are all and collecting themself they all of them their mobiles and talking about how to come to you or because thats what they want and i dont blame them that they want to come but its just how the system works i mean i would love to have a common european refugee policy i would love to have the mark of the german chancellor try to have it for 4 years every week every month every day through saying we need we need a fair quota system and so on and so on and she couldnt get it because europe is not united in refugee policy so this is yes youre right we need one but we dont have all the discussion about incentives and disincentives has played a very big role in the u. S. Debate as well so lets now turn to the situation on the southern border of the United States and take a look at at the problems there refugees are drowning there as well as here as a recent photo show to a very powerful effect. This image has circulated around the world government reza and his nearly 2 year old daughter leiria which trying to flee when they drowned in the border. They came from el salvador heading for the United States but like so many others they didnt make it. Home in el salvador hoskins mother brother said romeros clings to belongings and for terms of her son and granddaughter. And her demands that. The last thing he said to me on saturday. Was moment mama i love you say im moment please dont worry were fine we think well start with his last message when the lady is that in fact. That even if the father and daughter had crossed the river things wouldnt have been easy for them in america under donald trump Boulder Police and right wing militia hunting down immigrants from latin america like never before tens of thousands of them being held in u. S. Prisons and camps men women and children hardly anyone is allowed to stay. Here were to believe these people. Here are people. These are animals and were taking them out of the country at a level of the ring thats never happened before. Is the American Dream no longer for everyone. Ana maria donald trump has long been talking about a crisis at the southern border and in fact the recent numbers appear to be bearing him out why are we seeing what is truly enormous talk of people coming across that border and what is prompting acts of such desperation as Oscar Ramires trying to swim with his toddler daughter nobody would put their song or their daughter in the water if the land would have be more dangerous and also lets lets not forget that Central America special that the. Triangle has a history with the United States over decades even in the last century but recently. We cannot forget of the by the end of last year we saw this kind of people coming together from the north. Because the journey the road was very dangerous for many of them who were fleeing out ever since 2012 we saw a real peak i mean kriesel of migrants particularly among compliant miners so this is the time that the carbon they organize themselves together because the road is a very dangerous especially crossing crossing mexico. Theyre having a lot of deals right now don tron is trying to basically push mexico to deal with the whole with the whole situation in fact yesterday a federal court ruled that east unconstitutional for donald trump to keep these people intentional centers without a hearing because what now we can say that what donald trump is doing is unconstitutional just tell us very briefly what the conditions are like in those Detention Centers there was a lot of there was a big headline recently about the fact that Young Children were being held without access to so in toothpaste conditions have been called into humane what is the problem they are why are border authorities able to provide humane care. I mean lets not forget that these people are fleeing draw carvilles and poverty and when they have arrested the border specially many of them since last year in november with the car of and their children were separated from their parents so theyre still there together where there is a number at around 2002300 children who many of them are alone and that already besides khan constitutional before they Asylum Seeker process is going but its completely the probable to have that many people concentrating in barry and spaces which is not even going for them on top of a long and nobodys taking care of them so that already. By itself its already its already run. So then is it a funding issue or is it perhaps again an issue of attempting to deter migration by showing people that conditions are abysmal donald trump has said something of that nature would you ascribe motivation to the entire u. S. Government i think theres theres a combination of again a management crisis and then to prepare for things that they themselves have been warning about for months but we see parallels with european policy right so we see donald trump threatening mexico with terrorists what germany is doing or doing is traveling around africa and Offering Development assistance to curb migration. Extend the number of safe start countries in europe and try to make a deal with mexico as a treaty immigration security treaty to treat mexico as a country sort of a dublin system where they have to claim for themselves so theres a lot of parallels not only in the imagery that you showed before but also on the policy level but surely it is not to give Development Assistance to try to help people in the countries where they live so the question is why do we give Development Assistance right do we give it to actually foster Economic Growth in those countries or is it sort of a financial incentive to decrease migration but it is a funding issue because there are there is obviously in these centers there needs to be there needs to be a better better conditions but what we have to do is to basically call the congress to money tour what is happening with that money because that monies that are arriving thanks to the centers. Sentence for me take us back to our title track refugees rescue for do you think we will see this system change any time soon you know its a very very short answer but i can see. The consensus of the European Union i can see a consensus in the United States even though the Democratic Party is not an open border party as well because sulphate he supported for billions of money to secure the borders then. So going to have to cut you off right there thank you all for being with us thanks to all of you out there for turning and say you sent. You a. Good. Food. Because of morris like no other. Than a babys name our last survey to the queen of jack. The boys did gives you goosebumps you know. They sure love the way its your. 15 minutes long d. W. Play welcome to the girl next you tube channel. Gold mine of stewards. With exclusive insights. Into a must see concerning our times culture team youre a. Place to be for curious minds. Do it yourself networkers. So subscribers dont miss out. To know that 77 percent classic are younger than 6 oclock. Thats me and me and you. And you know what time it all voices. On the 77 percent talk about the issues. From politics to classes from housing to food shop this is where. Welcome to the 77 percent. This weekend d. W. Eat some or go buy keys to sit for food. Clean to prevent contamination. Separate draw and cook foods to avoid cross contamination. Cooks thoroughly to kill microorganisms. Keep food at safe temperatures either to prevent bacterial growth. I. Use safe water and safe Raw Materials to avoid content. Producers are the ones primarily responsible for the safety of the food or both but you can protect yourself and your family from diseases and all by applying the 5 keys to see for to use them you also have a role to play. The. British marines have cease and oil tanker loaded with iranian crude off gibraltar its suspected the oil was on its way to syria in violation of European Union sanctions the seizure was supposedly requested by the United States irans state run news agency has described the incident as illegal. 55 migrants have been rescued by the Italian Coast Guard in the Mediterranean Sea off the coast of the italian island of lampedusa