The uk. Welcome and thanks for joining us here on to the point where i guess in the studio our monthly laning who is an opinion writer for the berlin daily the he says germany is in a global competition for qualified immigrants to be successful it must offer greater incentives and better conditions and its a pleasure to welcome zuffa general shockey is a freelance author and journalist born in uncorrupt and resident in germany since 1970 he says unified germany still has no immigration policy based on reality but is under enormous pressure to act and great to have with us on the other as she is originally from costa rica and now works with the berlin based Migration Hub Network which provides support to in. National projects working with migrants she said it seems like were going back to well known regulations for getting the real contribution that current and future migrants make to this country. So let me begin by asking all of you this i have been in germany myself for 35 years now and for as long as i can remember this country has been engaging in passionate debate with itself about precisely this question whether it is a country of immigration what makes this discourse so tortured. Im not quite sure whether its a real gentleman phenomenon that was specific to germany i mean if you look around industry other nations from back ocean donald trump and the the brics a discussion in Great Britain scandinavia from austria all these countries they old struck with the relationship between native born population and migrants and refugees so so there is something that i mean germans like to argue and to discuss their own identity questions a lot but its not exclusively jummy that doesnt mean that i agree to some extent because somehow. Myself in germany it feels like germany says still trying to them to fight what kind of migrants they want in this country. Germanys migration country and you know they mind that will be the 9 many a lot of migrants who have made an incredible contribution to this country so ever youve been here in germany even longer than i have you know have a similar impression that this debate just goes on and on a new leader ations absolutely i think it brings a lot of. Tension but maybe its also a profit for a lot of people to discuss this and not to finish i dont know but in the end i was told to joke i think its just a serious problem because via kind. In this question the basic background of this discussion is in fact the guest worker this does go through of the sixtys of the seventys and the german society. Didnt develop a real positive constructive. But towards the expanse of work make aeration the mignons have a positive memory of this time so theres a gap between this negative attitudes among a lot of germans people dont integrate stay for a day dont communicate and so on and the other wants to say v. Could come to this country i could find a safe place because i make a living here because invest in our home countries and we could really bring our children to the world here and this is the proof we have to bring this together them all together to have a more realistic view of future immigration thank you let us just give a listen to how a few germans with a migration background actually also answer this question about whether germany has become a cut a country of immigration of ella launched an ambitious social media survey to find out what they think heres a sample than it is today germany is a multicultural country it already is a society based on immigration because thats not something for the distant future and so its already reality it. May be some people just dont want to believe that were already such a diverse society. And as a human. Miss of course in my opinion someone who would describe me as not german just because of my name or Something Else doesnt understand germany. And for. This man i dont know. We are a nation of immigrants. So over this long debate. At least some of its phases the word multicultural has not necessarily had positive connotations for a lot of people here in germany yet the 1st speaker that we heard used it in a very positive way as a statement of fact what do you think that i think it should be used in a positive way i mean you have to differentiate between the simple fact that germany is diverse of multicultural immigration country i mean theres simply a fact because people from migrant backgrounds now in the near future will be 25 percent of the population who can deny that it is a migrant country the the next thing is to have a positive attitude towards being that to value the contribution migrants have to pull the country starting with the recruitment agreements in the fiftys and sixtys with italy spain greece and all these countries but ending now with immigration all 3 so we have the example of the minister of health whos traveling around the world to get migrants coming to jobs were going to see another example of that a little bit later on but let me ask you this one persons multicultural is another persons parallel society the idea that different ethnic groups live next to each other sensually in a form of ghetto cut off from the Larger Society whats your experience as a person whos been in this country now for i think its 4 years its only 4 years but i work with my being here ready for you know more years than that and i have to. Being with them whats the was a transition that takes to actually feel integrated and theres many people sadly who even have born here and they dont even feel themselves german so there is definitely i would like to highlight what magda said i mean we have to work towards look at it as a positive thing because unfortunately steel in the streets and in the society many people tend to get their rawest their culture and they see because there is not that openness you know in the real life learning in the daily life for them to express their culture their religion so of course they feel more safe towards getting rice and enjoying their groups than rather just you know integrated with the rest of society i would stress that perilous societies part of Integration Society because not only because they they they are not being welcomed by open arms but because they tend to be 2 words you should be they speak their own language they try to help each other to so they but they have a block in communities and have little italy in new york we have chinatowns everywhere so these are perilous societies but that doesnt exclude integration except i think this person has been germany but the question dream question is why we are punishing so much why there isnt much point in history and this question for example i experienced 2 different gratian persons one was coming from turkey 2 to munich and the beginning of seventys as a child and 2nd voices growing up man coming from munich to build the result was a real Culture Shock so people live different they have different ideas of life and this is a part of modern open pretty societies we have to ensure people that they can lead you leave life differently without having this big topics always pose a side glance is Progress Society in berlin and the and the high middle class areas life is also very very parallel if you compare 2 to 2 places a bullet more social conflicts are so. Its a stuffing its the point of fear coming out from difference is the main issue can i ask you for another comparison you talk about open pluralistic societies one country that is often seen that way is Canada Canada has quotas for Skilled Labor immigration but it also tends to take quite a large number of refugees and know that you lived and worked in canada so can you give us a nutshell comparison of that society compared with this one. I think the attitude i was in by the way more in the United States but in canada but i have some experience was in canada and i teach you it is the more important thing i dont expect in fact germany becoming kind of this is not realistic this is a country is a traditions is a story we have to talk about it the problem is that we dont talk really about it you know be told always about immigration because you guessed immigration all shut to close the borders open the borders its not that easy you have to to to sort of push away the that and this and to look at our history which is a difficult history of the 20th century by the way and to the story after the war and we have to see what this judgment today how it can change and how ill fix it is that amount of theres another layer to that history as well namely 2015 when we had hundreds of thousands of refugees entering this country many of them from syria many of them fleeing the war there was quite a shift in attitudes after says its all about attitudes there was quite a shift in attitudes what was initially heralded as a welcome culture turned bitter why what happened there but these are 2 different discourses the discourse about the refugees and 220152016 is this basically driven by humanitarian arguments being taller and being an open society and so on and so on the migration to. Question is around competition is about seeing the fact that 3 quarters of migrants go to to to just 4 countries United StatesGreat Britain canada and australia because the industry can countries they have excellent. School and University System and so you have to be attractive to migrants in the future to to to to have to stay in the in the global competition i mean germany reigns in attractiveness and rank 12th in the 13. Countries which i do develop this is not enough so germans have to have to have to recognise the fact theres not just the question of being tolerant open and welcoming but in the cessna t. Of having more immigrants this is something thats very interesting because the image of germany is very positive by a lot of countries and this is ranking is very interesting theres a gap between this thing and the image and i think that has to do is that something which of the germans is they have difficulties to accept that some vals and if you want to yes and basically i want to separate that topic that migration with the ones who are rising 2015 i mean lets look at how are they doing this case theres a report right that says that 4400000 have got a job what kind of jobs is another story but i work with many of them and that actually deactivated that many of them have taken towards integrating into i mean following the rules sort of say its been phenomenon they go to german classes there were killed in a fight i mean theyre really trying let me let me stop you right there because we actually have a report about exactly such a young man and let it be said that it is perhaps not confusing that germans often confuse this debate because for many for a long long time they had no category for Skilled Labor immigration it was only refugees those who came in 2015 were looking for Refugee Status lets take a look at a young man. Who is one of those who has received a temporary refugee recognition but who lives in uncertainty not knowing when he might be sent home if the danger to him in his home country recedes we visited a young man from afghanistan. Kies has had a stable job at the Migration Office and lived station for a little under a year now he came to germany 5 years ago and speaks german well that makes him a prime example of successful integration. Back in afghanistan he had been in the military but he fled the country after receiving serious threats kies loves his new home but his residency status makes him worry his right to stay is only temporary so each year he has to reapply for extensions for his wife and 2 children. What happens when one year is up. What will happen to my children and my family. We cant go back to afghanistan i left everything behind to build a new future i wanted to live in safety but nevertheless we havent truly arrived we can only wait. To germany be more open towards well integrated immigrants. Question right on to you anna because you were saying we shouldnt make this distinction between actually the skilled on the one hand to contribute to the economy and the others who are often seen as a drag on the economy so what about a young man like hes a contribution to todays economy hes a contribution to this country as many that has arrived in the recent years actually parallel to d. C. That right that enters in march 1st there were another act that also passed the act to allow Skilled Labor immigration to sectors Like Health Care exactly and theres another one that pos exactly at the same time actually entered into force i guess in february or something of that which is. The temporary suspension of the protege shin because many of like them cases like that existed in germany where they already got a job bought they were in the process whether protege shown or they were not and you know as. A Refugee Status so and so now this act also is going to protect people like that right so i think thats i want to highlight which is that i mean what are we panicking about i mean perhaps its very important that we dont make a distinction and then we see everybody as a contribution and i also have many examples like like the one that you just showed actually from Syrian Refugees as well many of them especially the ones who had a doctor background which is basically one of the skill sets that its looked or its interesting this new act and theyre already working and theyre ready as a terse and their goal was for st germany needs more like rest or more people who works in that for example health care what is going on here is what the difficulties they have are connected to the issue that there was a kind of impression that state lost state in the officials lost control and they had this experience 2050 after their hundreds of thousands of marriages and this was in the end it was right there was a control and the next thing was that it was enormous the misuse by right wing politicians and by people organized the public you know and there is a kind of sense sensitivity in this issue because there is this story that there are enormous amounts of people who wants to come to europe and especially to germany and if you dont care about this they will be or so this is this is a this is a tall tree cannot just shut our eyes we have to open our eyes and we have to look at it and they have to address it they have to communicate the issue what is the ratio of. Immigration could be organize and i think this example that you just chilled to us. Demonstrates this in a perfect way because we have on the one hand a moral obligation to protect these people because they helped the german army in afghanistan theyre seen by locals as collaborators so we have a moral obligation to help them on the other hand german taxpayers invested in these people for education giving language courses housing them for health care and so on and so on i dont know how much money in each person of them but to expose them off to a certain tonne mean we invested and just wasted the money so that just an economical reason just stupid to do that and i think i just ask you because there has basically implied that right wing politicians are instrumental ising zina phobia precisely in regard to 2 young refugees like. Would you say thats true and by the way that they handle this are mainstream politicians running scared in front of this right wing fervor i think they instrumental lies that but i think that is again that is a european if not a worldwide phenomenon i mean in the moment you have a couple of months 100000 of people coming in uncontrolled and you have a right wing populist party by 10 percent i think thats what could have been expected i dont want to excuse that or to to minimize the political impact but i think there is a correlation between the acceptance of migration and the feeling that is in a way controlled migration on an uncontrolled migrate you know its really important what youre saying mother but lets not forget they resign your report from the cafe which is this german bank a state that says that in the east and in the rural areas in germany 40 percent of the people are against or they said that they dont need skill level migrants because of course and this is what thats the target of the other right way in this population because they are afraid that they have that employed right they pay. They belong part of the 3 point one percent of the people who are unemployed in this country so of course their fear is that increases and thats what also germany should look at into more precisely and more thoroughly also how we can integrate the ones where an employed at the moment let me just say i mean stuff here because our time is limited and i do want to take at least a brief look at the other side of the coin at the same time that germany is wrestling with right wing zina phobia its also actively seeking Skilled Labor abroad a new law and a Public Relations campaign are designed to attract promising candidates. These 16 women from namibia are learning german with music theyre trained nurses but because they have no chance of finding work in their home country theyre applying for jobs in germany. Employees at the University Hospital in dusseldorf travel to namibia especially for job interviews. I feel is that good if its a new team my personal. Development. As well and my for the things i want to teach. It to explore a beat into what people what. Facility you again will face next period. The yalu hopes to soon be able to support her family in the media with the income she earns here. Later she hopes to study in germany return to namibia. After the interviews in windhoek the team from dusseldorf is excited. To tell you our clinic has decided that we would like to have all of them into seoul dorf. But is everyones profiting from the migration of skilled workers to germany. Exactly the question that i just read this let me ask you this after 5 months language course and then off to germany so question would be how well. Well prepared are these young women likely to be for what awaits them here and what will become of them later do you think this country will do better at integrating them than it has many other guest workers but absolutely i also think that this country integrated a lot of course very well in the end this is a question of psychological discourse if you have all and because if you see all the sides of immigration you can have a picture if you see only the good kind of a picture the difference is in the middle i mean you have you have its great you know you have this dark side and good sides and you have problems in society important is how you solve the problems and how you can. Advise people to act more realistic and relaxed in the same day i mean they have an enormous Efficient Organization of life here in this country and they are able to talk to integrate a lot of people this is the question but in the same time you have an almost fierce and in a pod off to society not a small part i dont think its a majority but its 34 to persons of people are mostly negative towards me gratian because of all the of an almost a many many many reasons and they have to address the reasons its very important if you dont address the reasons you will have more and more people not to is this an either or should germany stop looking to namibia for skilled workers and simply invest more in education and training for people like the young afghan man you know what i would say its basically a question of sensitivity i mean if the minister of health gives the impression that he a rich white man from a european country comes with a pocket full of money to buy labors to germany i think that would be a very very dangerous impression you have to see in some in some cases you cause even a brain drain in developing countries. This is compensated in most cases due to the fact of the remittance these people pay to the families in their own countries but you have to i mean you have to talk about all these. Looking for skilled workers is one thing but but quantifying your own if its refugees and migrants and your own country is the next thing that is least as important as the 1st so ana last question goes to you when we go back to our title. Months as we need to talk about it is the talk achieving something would you say germany is evolving toward a country of immigration open rather than closed. I dont know how these Public Relations campaign will go much looking forward to see that aftermath march 1st but the impression right now towards the migrants that are here is what about us yes germany has done an impressive work but still there are so many things that needs to be fixed internally even for to wants to come i mean i am part of a country for example that i cannot open a bank account easily in germany so its very important that the these little minor details that really counts a lot into the integration are fixed 1st and secondly lets also take into a look into the ones that are here already what i just feel that maybe else them and particularly the ones who came into new 15 theyre going to build on processes right so they will be highly skilled in a very in a very short period of time and they will be also part of these skill level migrants so thats also a question that we will see as i guess is that the bottom since this is act last question one word answer please when people from your country and from latin american generally look at germany what do they see open or closed its open enough for a show but not necessarily the reality when they come here thank you very much of you for being with us today and thanks to you out there for tuning in to see you soon. Democracy. Is going to. Come in the bottom of a. Good. Thanks. To dave dont miss our highlights w. Program on line d. W. Dot com highlights. Language courses. Video audio. Any time anywhere. Were all set. To go beyond the obvious. That. As we take on the world. Were all about business stories that matter to you. And about something. Good to see what ever it takes to know running the. Show how much. Fun it w. Makes the mind. Thank. All we can be the generation that ends it good malaria. So millions can live. This is. From berlin tonight germany in mourning after yet another far right attack this one the deadliest 10 people shot and killed it happened in the city of new frankfurt the gunman walked into bars and shot his victims killing them execution style prosecutors are treating the act as an act of terrorism. Calling races. Together with people across the whole of germany im sure the deep pain