A hello, and welcome to this special edition of conflict zone on the crisis in hong kong. Over the last year, weve interviewed several probate janan prodemocracy figures, and we challenge them all to justify what theyve done and said some of their arguments have clearly failed to stand the test of time. Nathan law, a leading prodemocracy activist, fled to london in june after a warrant was issued for his arrest. This week i asked him if youd ever believed his movement could take on beijing and when i think we have already achieved a lot of things where demonstrate the courage and bravery of hong kong people and making sure the well knows that well received thing and collaborating in combating the authoritarian expansion of china. So i think we have awakened the world, but the result isnt in doubt, is it . China will get its way. Beijing will get its way, wont it . While beijing has been suppressing hong kong people at the cost of our basic freedom. And as a matter of fact, the world has been reacting to that suppression a lot of sanctioning zan embargoes. And also, plenty of countries abandoning and extradition treaty to hong kong shows that the world actually know what china has been doing and determined to counter at last years the rioting intensified. Beijing warned protesters to expect what it called a blow from the sword of law. Victor gao, the chinese lawyer and academic tried to suggest that his government had nothing against democratic rights. It was just against violence. So long as democracy democratic rights are exercised, the peacefully and lawfully. Everyone is a winner. No one is a loser. What we need to the popes in hong kong is violence. You. That is the key. You ignore the fact that chinas plan has been to chip away at hong kongs freedoms and democracy until they were all meaningless. And then beijing good reassert full control in that. Thats been the plan, hasnt it . When iraq, again, with due respect, i disagree. Why should beijing of the Central Government in hong kong take away any liberties or freedoms in hong kong with a deal they did. Mr. Y, like the kidnapping of 5 homegrown booksellers, users that didnt turn up in mainland china. The crackdown on those who led the 2014 process, the highly controversial decision to allow mainland Chinese Police to operate in the west station. All this is chipping away at the freedoms of hong kong, beijing. Imagine that people wouldnt notice this. I think we need to really keep an eye on the big picture that is ever since the 1997 hong kong has managed to keep its relative independence. Judiciary independence, for example, political system, there has been no change is set, or if you talk about specific cases, we can go into details if you have more time. Now remember when people were still alive and he was the key architect for the one country 2 system. He said for the record that if the one country 2, a system will work out for the 1st 50 years, why couldnt it be extended for another 50 years . So there is an uncertainty as to what will happen in hong kong after 2047. I would say everything will come to their end if for example, violence continues in hong kong. However, if stability, prosperity, development, and the improvement of the peoples Living Standards are the normal things all the way leading up to 247. Why couldnt the one country 2 system apply more years of me . You have to tell me to measure one point, you know, put in hong kong in the overall magnitude of the scale of china, or whatever bad things that have happened in the home of the past 6 months. Things in china is, is, is at best, can be called a storm in a teacup. Its not going to change meaningfully, anything thats happening in peoples republic of china at all. What beijing is a happy about adamantly is a pollster to is the violence in hong kong. Lets be honest, as straightforward with them. No country either britain of the United States will tolerate the level of violence that has engulfed hong kong for the past 6 months. And that kind of warning fell on deaf ears on the streets of hong kong. With demonstrators were in no mood to step back the sides by using violence themselves. They now have the attention of western governments. I put it to joey prodemocracy student that the protesters went so far as to kill anyone movement. Yes, i agree. And im prepared to take that risk and you wont come out in public and say, we need to stop this. The British Government has slammed last week and what it called the hard core minority said the violence was an acceptable. This is the sound of you international support. Wavering and believing you, isnt it . Yes. Well, i believe the escalation of thousands and as far as might, but definitely be very concerning to the international society. When all the free world countries are advocating using peace, whole means to bring the situation to a restart. But they tell you that going too far already, doesnt that matter . Well, of course that matters, but i think the most important thing is about how can we hold our government accountable, and how can we bring them to respond to our demands. What about the judiciary . Youve heard criticism from judicial institutions in hong kong, pretty heavy criticism. These are the bodies enjoy considerable respect around the world for the impartiality. Again, if youre losing them, this is a really bad sign for the law society, for instance, all forms of on the move for violence, particularly against the police, the use of petrol bombs against the police, as well as the apparent attacks on the families of Police Officers and bullying of their children at school. You proof of those methods, bullying the children of Police Officers that school . Well, i dont agree with those math thats still with us. And so you dont agree with the violence and you dont agree with the bullying of the children. Doesnt sound as though theres much you agree with that. Youll stay silent anyway. We had the effort using piece. I mean, for example, like peaceful rallies, marches to, to express our concerns and demands. And, but the point is that we do not publicly condemn those actions, but still we try to use our peaceful means to use our own case for me is to try to switch the tactic of those using intimidation, maffia, stylin, intimidation. We have a report of one teenage daughter of an officer being harassed by another out. While she was playing sport, they said to her, what your father is doing is disgusting since when are children responsible for the actions of their parents . Well, 1st off, i dont thing any family members of those Police Officers should be responsible for their own disgusting actions and i made youre making them responsible. Some of your people are making responsible balloon them. Harrison. Well, i believe that is happening. But after or the law society says its happening. Yes, i can deny that it is actually happening. But still we are trying to use peaceful tactics to, to bring the situation to a resolution. And i believe like bullying family members would not be a very good way to solve the situation. The hong kong bar association. So do the hong kong airport constituted serious struction and was in open defiance of junctions granted by the courts. In other words, you broke from war, do you want to live in the state governed by the rule of law or only the moves that you like . Of course i would like to live in a state of law. However, we can see that it is very obvious that the situation of we are flying Home Counties being broken, not by the protesters, but by the government itself. 1st. And i believe thats why protesters are marching on the street are taking onto the streets even though they know that it will break the law. And i believe this is something you know, that the most important aim is to fight to protect the rule of law in hong kong and judicial independence. But youre trashing it at the same time. Well, i believe breaking the law to protect little more doesnt because well it is the government that forces us to take on the streets and to break the laws. It is not a particularly so this is, you know, very forces you to break the law or do that. The government far as i said, it is. So obviously thats your interpretation. But here, here are these judicial institutions rule warning, you that criminal contempt as they put it impedes the administration of justice. And the fun checked will inflict grave and represent damage to the rule of law in hong kong, grave and irreparable damage. Thats what they think youre doing to. Hong kong doesnt matter. Well, of course that matters. But as i have mentioned, what matters the most about whether we can actually bring a change to our political structure and government structure. And that would be the common goal and would be the most important go for us to achieve for this moment. And i believe even for the department of justice is self evident, being totally independent. For now, after, after the handover of hong kong from the British Government to the chinese government, we can see that our core values are traditional where system is being encroached by the chinese government. For a while, the protest brought results. The Hong Kong Government scrapped a controversial extradition bill. It would have seen suspects tried in mainland courts controlled by the communist party. The Police Arrested hundreds of protesters in the prodemocracy movement, have plenty of other demands. Foreign governments want them to open a dialogue with the government, but there was little appetite for the jury, sue, if you ever sat down with the government and hold a dialogue, who would call the talks . Who could, who could also rise compromises that are essential in any kind of political dialogue. Who in your movement could actually sit down and authorize compromises . I believe nobody could represent our movement because as you know, nobody will sit down with you. Youre not opening doors, you closing doors when we are going oration. You just said nobody to go through. A compromise is really considered the room for you. Represent you well back in history of not supposed to talk to. Well back in june. The chief executive kerry has tried to approach to several student unions, the hong kong, and we had rejected her offer because she requested a private meeting with only some of this didnt you know, hong kong which, which is not even representing all the students in hong kong it would be a start, wouldnt that it would have been a start. It wont be a start, it will only be a end to our movement. Because back in 2014, we see that caroline tried to talk to some of the student leaders. Some of the leaders of the umbrella revolution, however, what we got are 30, after the dialogue was that was to crack down our family. And then caroline did nothing, any of her any of her promises in the dialogue. And we felt like, especially in this leaderless movement, its very important for us to have a public dialogue with as many stakeholders in a society as possible. At least we can not only have the student activists talking to kerry land. Ok, have you think that other stakeholders youve put forward 5 principle demands of the Hong Kong Government, you and your fellow activists, that the government has only addressed one of them, which was the extradition bill, which they withdrew firm. But in fact, according to albert chen, professor of nor the university of hong kong, the government responded to all of your demands, just not in the way that you want it. You wanted an independent investigation into Police Handling of the riots. You didnt get that, but you didnt get nothing over. The independent Police Complaints council appointed 5 overseas experts from britain, canada, australia, and new zealand didnt get everything but they did respond. Well, i believe. What are we calling for is not only a official demand for official response from kerry lamb. What we are asking for is about the concrete actions by to Hong Kong Government. Were asking them to respond to our demands by taking actual actions. By june, this year, beijings patience would run out. It published the draft of a new law that opened the way for its feared security agencies. So operated will in hong kong, regina, a member of the City Government and chair of the new beijing Peoples Party tried to play it all down. I dont think theyre talking about direct and forstmann of Law Enforcement of laws will continue to be the responsibility of our policeman. Thats not what it says. It is against the basic on. No, no, no, thats what what you described. They did not say what it is, what they only said that some National Security agency may be set up on the need basis, as in a couple hours. Our National Security council, you have known what is that . And im an ashkenazi doing a hunch, that means doesnt mean the baby you know. So he created really well its actually we dont know for that titos so you cant be a little culpable as well. You should not, you cant give any comfort to, but as you are not about this. And you cannot give any unwarranted accusations. If there are no facts, you are making unwarranted accusations. Will these agencies operate under mainland law or hong kong law or you dont know . Do you no, no, no, its in the basic law. They must obey hong kong law. When i said this, it is not clear yet what any new National Security agency would be responsible for. It could simply be responsible for public education, publicized here and promotion. You know, you cannot come to the conclusion that they are, they will be enforcing hong kong law. Thats what they bring. Thats what they do when they bring in the National Security organs of the central police. Government is a central peoples government. Thats what they are looking for. Education is it, you dont know that again, you arent, you, and you have no, no factual basis for making those sort of statements you are simply making are sweeping allegations based on your own assumptions and bias when theres no assumptions and bias. When you look at how the National Security organs of the central peoples government operate when theyre in on the mainland. I mean, were not talking about mainland, were talking about one country 2 systems. Lets come back to hong kong. It doesnt look as though its one country 2 systems that have very interNational Security organs have and imposing their security laws on hong kong. It doesnt look like 2 systems. It looks like one country, one system. If you do that, they are and acting. They are trying to enact a hong kong specific version, which is consistent with our common law systems. If they just wish to impose a mansion, impose chinas system on us, they could just apply this to us, chinas National Security law, but they are not doing this. They are now Consulting Hong Kong experts about and trafficking a hong kong specific version for us to take account of our separate systems. Those comforting predictions turned out to be wide of the mark when beijing security law was published. It was all that the prodemocracy movement had feared, and more whole cases could now be handed over to the mainland for investigation judgement and punishment trials could be held in secret. And though the new security agencies were not required to follow hong kong law to be fair, regina had hadnt seen the full text when we spoke. But she firmly rejected the suggestion that the law reflected beijings paranoia about free speech and freedom in general. And thats a very unfair statement. In the past 12 months, the police have uncovered at least 22 cases up, extremely dangerous here, keeping explosives all that inch in one in the school. And lots of weaponry, dangerous weapons have been using a lot of socor peaceful protests. You know, and innocent people have been killed. These are violent events that never occurred in hong kong. And there are people waving, promoting hong kong independence, you know, waving hong kong flexion chanting. Revolutionary songs. You know, these are activities that no government would allow a lot of hong kong people are very angry about it. John fund revolutionary songs. Are in order trying to get a lucia. Yes, absolutely. A profit everyone started to chant revolutionary songs in free countries. Regina europe, you can go to london or washington and chant, whatever revolutionary songs you want, why dont you try it . It depends on whether the songs are chanted as in an opera. Les miserables. 7 la or chant as a part up, a well organized and well planned action plan to stoke separatist sentiments at the end of the day, your, your reason your pitch to the people of hong kong is trust beijing. This security law will not be used in the same way that beijing uses its security laws to tamp down on freedoms on the mainland. This is what you are asking them to accept that china is not going to behave the way behaves on the mainland in hong kong. If you really believe that, of course, trust our motherland. Our motherland has nothing but good intentions for the people of hong kong and also trust the paycheck. Large trust, one country 2 systems which has worked well in the past 23 years. You know, why doesnt it have better attentions to wards its own people on the mainland . Why is it torturing them in prisons and locking up a 1000000 . We guess in socalled reeducation camps . Why is it doing that . I must ask you to. I must ask you not to confuse and feels the issues, but keep talking about making allegations about a name that would have nothing to do it one country 2 systems. I ask you to come back to the situation in hong kong, how one country 2 systems really operate and dont allow your bias to color your, your, your reports of hong kong thats totally unfair to hong kong people. I take strong objection to that. Whatever the objections, the chinese president xi jinping has moved to cement his hold over hong kong and his record on the mainland speaks for itself. The most serious crackdown on human rights there. 25 years. But does beijing really mean the people of hong kong give up their rights and embrace the restrictions, censorship, and political dictatorship of the Chinese Communist party. Victor gao again. Lets be honest about it. China is in firm control of the situation in hong kong. As far as over india is concerned, no one in the world can really 2nd this 2nd, guess this point or really take hong kong away from china. Thats for the record. Thats not 2nd guess about that. Of course on the one country 2 systems. Hong kong peeps, its political system in hong kong. The capital is the system. But do you think anyone will realistically expect the hong kong can be misused as a stronghold against china . No, i the day all the way to 2047 could go unanswered. The question was, which is where the beijing imagines hong kong would set the kind of restrictions that beijing imposes on its own people on the mainland. After 2047, china has full discussion to decide what kind of political system will prevail in hong kong, much more no. 90 people of hong kong get in return for being subsumed into children or a chance to be spied on by what Human Rights Watch called one of the worlds most intrusive mass surveillance systems. Whatever happens will happen in hong kong after 2047, their finest records of arbitrary detention torture and violations of right to trial. You really think the people of hong kong are 2nd class i need some of out in my life. Not really looking forward to that. I think in todays world that we should be very objective and nonbiased about china. Lets do look at how china is developing. Lets look at china, lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. Lets look at how hong kong has benefited tremendously. Over the past 22 years after being part of the one country 2 system. Nathan, or is there no way for the prodemocracy movement to negotiate now with the Hong Kong Government or has that door closed for good . I think we look at the act elating aggressive behavior from the Central Government that is qualification of the legislators. The sweeping national, a National Security law and order arrest they have made. There are no cites of them reeling to concede any grounds. They have been doing a lot of brutal suppression in hong kong. So i dont think that is a room for negotiation rather actually room for the International Community to act, to really hold china accountable. Whats actually left for the prodemocracy movement on the ground. Symbolic protest, lack of cooperation in civil disobedience. What form is the protest going to take . Now that china has narrowed your scope for movement. Social movement is in the form of a pendulum, or we have our highest point last year, where going rather to a low point. Now i think for us, for hong kong, people would definitely have to defend our professional values in the satyrs like Education University or in a legal status that we have to defend our own grounds. That actually a lot of invisible battles ongoing. And the purpose of that is to preserve our freedom values. What we have had you fled to london. Now you here in exile effectively. Do you still fear chinas reach . Are you afraid being here in london . We have a lot of attacks to excel at 1st from authoritarian countries like russia, china. I dare not say that im completely safe, even though im in london. But it doesnt stop me to voice up for uncomputable. Ill continue to play my war into International Advocate for hong kongs Democratic Movement and the International Community to hold china accountable to address the human violations, Human Rights Violations in any hong kong. Do you think youll ever go back to hong kong . Im an activist, im not entitled to lose hope. So i am hopeful that i can return to hong kong. But in that case, telling our world see the democracy and freedom in hong kong. But it takes a long while. You really believe that . I do, i think many individuals not only in hong kong, but in china they, they also have to have hope. And it takes a lot of efforts or maybe sacrifices from our generation or maybe fischer generations to achieve that. But i think the fate of people will never die and will never give up to the point to strong opinions, clear positions from International Perspective such research as a revolt, the significant breakthroughs in efforts to develop a vaccine against covert 19. Could this be the beginning of the end for the coronavirus night mass, and who feel which one will profit 1st find out going to the point short for things to the point. He keeps on t. W. Earlier of the Mormon Church salute. Because you know, for those in love in those war, swallow horror, movies. Lol birds, mostly theres no use in the love of food for the workers. Those are your workers in a murder cant sleep or close to the murders. Im not proud and i will not succeed in dividing us about, ill not succeed in taking the people off the streets because were tired of this dictatorship taking the stand. Global news that matters made for minds is for me is for you is for help. Beethoven is for her is for the beethoven is for us, is for beethoven 202250th anniversary here on play this is the news live from the e. U. Deadlocked on even nearly 2 trillion euros. The dispute is over the blocks long term budget and Recovery Funding to help Member States through the coronavirus. And in fact, in a showdown, hungary and poland refused to budge over plans to make the money conditional on respecting the rule of law. Also