Asked in the valley against putin who will win the russian showdown. Thanks very much indeed for joining us here on to the point and with me in the studio in starry asuka a freelance reporter and presenter born in russia and based in berlin darrius says novelle these investigations and the attack on him have for the 1st time politicised many young people in russia also with us is alexander our expert on russia an advisor to the energy giant gazprom he argues that Russian Society can live with corruption but if the Younger Generation feel they are losing out that could change quickly and a very warm welcome to to steven pifer academic analyst and former u. S. Ambassador with a focus on your. To russia and much else besides he says the west should push back against the worst of russian misbehavior but it should also leave the door open for dialogue thank you for those 3 statements thank you for being here and id like to begin with you if i may and begin with flooded me putin himself hes clearly under pressure thats big news hes under pressure from alexei and a vile nice so tell us a little bit about himself. Misson of all he has been around for over a decade has been a big presence on the square protests in 2012 which a lot of people here will probably remember is the biggest to date actually the protests that took time the took part took place this sunday were smaller than what happened a lot. Probably is well known for his. Use and i should say he knows how to speak the language towards the young people thats why i talked about it in my statement so hes charismatic hes charismatic and he knows how to play this irony how to make things stick so for example his genius find in the last video was that he talked not only about the giant pile 0 of talk about the toilet brush the 700 euro which became beneficial symbols of protests in the if you noticed but a lot of people turned up a toilet brush some of them sprayed with gold or ive seen one of the price sticks at 100 euros which is something this kind of stuff sticks. He definitely knows how to lead people hes a very well organized hes got the socalled headquarters like offices actually without having an official Political Party. Movement has offices all over russia no Political Party has an up or quite that not united russia we think your party does not have an up or going with this is why the protests the some they were remarkable for the number of towns they took place and we had about 100 towns small ones like not just Moscow St Petersburg and maybe novosibirsk ok so these pretty impressive stuff does that mean that when we say the alexander that he is the man Vladimir Putin feel is the most is not true if you buy into that if i want to tell you. Of course correctly working with. But i have also looked like a democrat or suppose it is true so i want to be here as a political presence or a hero. Is of course a present of of the very young generation in russia or the young generation who have never experienced communism who never experienced this kind of future which their. Relatives fathers and grandfathers and mothers mothers have experienced during their life this is a generation which grew up with i would say democratic traditions in the ninetys but felt this more positively then there are the tiffs who suffered in the ninetys and they have a kind of perspective for us which is completely different from that of the and here i come to the point where the majority of the russians will still conservative traditionalists and who want to have a strong russia 1st of all the majority of people in russia will not follow. Because they have other values and many of. Them are also oriented negativity towards the west because of the ninetys where a lot of the west has been seen as a failure for a distance of what it took to russia but on the other hand of course for pushing and for the kremlin its a big danger that if not vinyl could unite and organized the urban use behind his political platform also the political foot that form of him is not quiet understand the bullets for me at least he is against corruption but we dont know if more right wing is the more left wing. Incentives iranian style a very mixed record makes a difference and he wants to become president this is also his character i think he doesnt want to be Opposition Leader he doesnt want to sit in the parliament he fights 1st and it was put in and this is again something what makes the political career of him of himself in the future very dangerous ok lets proceed yeah if i could follow up next i think its going to be interesting to see what the young generation in russia does now because if you look over the last 25 years the russian population has been i dont want to i mean be passive i mean the protests that you saw 800000 people in 2000 have in moscow but mosques a city of what 15000013 yeah right right if he in the my done revolution at some point you had a half a 1000000 people on the sea of Ukraine Ukraine a city of 3000000 so the russian population has not yet come to the streets in the way that youve seen people come the streets in ukraine or in Eastern Europe earlier in the ninetys or in many maybe even belarus ok but the question is going to be is does that Younger Generation now come out and it was interesting 2 things about the protests on saturday one was the numbers that you cited 100 cities all across russia thats pretty widespread the 2nd issue i thought was kind of interesting is that when you watch the protest the protesters were pushing back. In the past if you watched russian protest the protesters are relatively docile i mean they dont really push back in the way that i think we saw happen on saturday and that might be of concern to Russian Security services ok very important points down here is up next 1st of all the control of power in russia for 2 decades but his leadership has become increasingly authoritarian and now for the 1st time there appears to be a real challenge of. The pop star of the russian opposition. Is mobilizing people across the country is a russia free from corruption and putin. Video posted on. The long graduate explains how. He has been experiencing ever more of the states power through arrests and courts trials his popularity is growing especially among the young but he is also controversial initially aligns with a liberal democratic party. Only later temporarily relied on nationalist slogans. He finished 2nd in moscows 2013 mayoral elections in the 2018 president ial election he was barred from running against putin. 2 years later he was attacked with a nerve presumably by secret agents of the f. S. B. The russian president makes fun of without ever mentioning his name. If they had wanted to fatally poison him. Upon his return from germany where he was treated and convert the kremlin critic was again arrested how dangerous. For the president. Of the voice of young russia. I was just want to bring up one thing is that were talking about the scale of them and yes it is impressive but right now. To russia through which has been protesting on the streets since august every week sometimes even more had pantries of thousands of people turning up every day they have been arrested they still havent given up but. And here there have also havent given up belarus politically essentially remains the same country that it was it hasnt changed which and they have a charismatic leader donna to hold off i would say for many younger people from russia and from belarus there has been a lot of writing about to go on to head off going to russia shes interesting for us shes understandable she is more mainstream. So i have to ask the question the question that begs is it is there something more general happening here ruutu were not just talking about absolutely something gentles happening here the west was an anchor for russia and then in the in the end of the eightys when gorbachev start of the the evolution of people looking towards the west as the best alternative to the soviet regime now the west is less and less for the majority of people and alternative it is set for the west and used to hear it but its true because the west to sit still problems and the same demonstrations this is roughly the same group. Is too liberal the west is badly organized the west is violent this is the primitive no he is saying they have the same problems they have the same Police Brutal police which beating beating up demonstrators and that states in germany and holland and so on so dont teach us and the problem is that the Russian Society is becoming anti western in many sense not the younger people but the older people and the traditionalists in russia saying we want to live in europe but in a different system of values and i think that the conflict of values between the liberal europe and the liberal traditionalist russia and many parts belorussian of the country is the main conflict which we have seen in the between the west and russia. In the past when ok lets pass the ball incident. But im not sure i totally agree because if you look at them i dont river and ukraine in 2014 while it morphed into a broader protest against the kleptocracy a victory on a coach and a growing authoritarianism it started out as a protest because youre on a coach said he was not going to sign an association with the European Union and for a lot of ukrainians they saw they say youre taking away my chance dark closer to europe so i think europe still has a draw it may not have the gloss that it did say 15 or 20 years ago and the question is going to be in a place like russia where i think youre right there is this clash of values do younger russians say no we still want the values of europe and then how does that work out internally with russia and i think that the problem russia has is i think russia would. Theres a signal the russian population and i think this might include of many people in common who would like to join europe but on russian terms and im not sure that europe is prepared to accept russian values and i think thats the clash of my point with the use of europe have changed you might disagree but its also true in the west that become somehow militant also in the wars a lot of i work with Many Russians in the people a sense here in the west would just say yes but whats all king about. Germany is can hardly be described as a functional as new liberal society we can we can talk of germanys probably the best model for liberal democracy in the world as im saying this as a german but in the the same time we see that we are having certain problems and problems inside europe well thats not the subject of all talk right now im only stalking about the russians who i work with young people in the in the u. S. Parliaments and in russia mapes and surveyed they are there saying yes we want to be a part of your we want a utopian values but look at any price of the west should stop teach us we also have something to bring into this europe this is. This is not a contradiction but to what you have said its only not even a correction but an important point which i want to make that things have changed a little bit from the times which we know when the day of the college revolutions and the other revolutions were conducted they took place in Eastern Europe ok that was the world in many ways according to putin and he put in the russian leader has surprised many people by actually responding to these documentary that we heard about the russian leader said he hadnt yet seen the film but he nevertheless dismissed it as boring and brainwashing for the 1st time devalues the film to attack putin directly theres plenty of footage of the lavish black sea palace the largest palace in the world apparently alexander. Youre giggling in the background almost. How corrupt is not in a pollutant. I think hes not himself is not corrupt russia is corrupt and he doesnt meet the. Person least not corrupt i dont think that he has personal that he was i dont think so it has to be proved i dont think so you ask me i think around him the oligarchs are corrupt the world in russia has a problem of corruption the major problems that he has his cronies ive always been saying to you is this costal why theyre building this to demonstrate the world that they can build a better car the cost of the french 400 years ago or. I have a number they want to have more yes yes we laugh at this and im trying to explain what they what they wanted to create a big moment. For us strong russia at the end of the coast yes for us its ridiculous. I think its its a symbol of power tools to show the presence at the black sea lions that like the palace that we remember so well in the remaining in Capital Bucharest this is far more a i think more expensive but its built by the oligarchs and accounts the project of course probably will one day they thought that putting my upset uses cost all that he steps down but hes not stepping down. And i think that its been interesting that while the kremlin says you know putin has nothing to do with this they could say who owns it who built it and theyre totally silent on that point its clearly its not be there for somebody else and i think in the absence of any further information you know its clearly been built for putin on the broader question. I mean whether or not putin is personally corrupt we may have different views on that he has tolerated an incredible amount of corruption in russia and i guess that was probably the Biggest Surprise when i was still in the u. S. Government back in the 2000 when putin came to power i think the one thing that we really expected was he will types of things i mean i think there was a sense in russia that things had become too loose in the 1990 s. Too much chaos. So you would restore a degree of order but theres also a sense that this is somebody who actually is going to crack down on corruption and i dont think weve seen that crime somebody with some somebody who would who would be he was used as an honest leda a man who stood by his word that was the that was always a message around. There was hope i mean i dont remember. But 6 there was hope that something will change that russia will become the western country that so many people hoped for it would in the ninetys and the mass would be cleaned up and we would have a normal life and it has not come to fruition. You had in the demonstrations there were a lot of young people who said i havent seen another president other than Vladimir Putin i can say the same there was even a mean that there is not a cats in russia that has been born before put in. Life time. Through. And just i think is such a focal point of this corruption that many people have associated grain himself so much in the fabric of the Russian Society that if we want change has to go sentiment among many things the basic problem is that the russia has no idea what is life and we in the west and the United States when it was futile and lightman the russians didnt have a jump from communism from with the tarion system. Into Something Else to do capitalism. Everybody tried to become rich the corruption is a problem of the whole society of the people of the top of it rich but people of the below also in many ways corrupt fortunately not only in russia but in that in Eastern Europe they think its thats a way of life in order to survive they dont think its good you think its a way to survive what they say is they at the top shouldnt steal too many too much money and not of course is a custom thats. Actually this is exploding at the top and this is what makes people of course will wonder whether i thought this was the way the mill valley is now finally and an alternative a genuine viable alternative to the putin rule that weve seen now for 220 years i think its too early to say i mean you do have to see what happens on sunday i mean are you going to see the sort of evolution that you saw in belarus where people are prepared to go into the streets on a more regular basis i dont think at this point we can gauge how powerful the vollies poll that is but hes also going up against a very organized authoritarian system a very established police state that you know is going to push back. And thats going to be the clash i i personally i think putin made a tactical error i think arrestee involved the end of on his return actually is put putin in a box because you know he now has to do something you know back down or perhaps send vali to jail for a number of years and thats going to get attention in a volley that nevaeh might not have attracted had he simply come back and been allowed to return and then go on with whatever is going to do what evidence would you if this were a sort of a council of wise men and women which indeed it is in many ways. If the German Government was a couple and say was advised to you have for us been approaching this crisis in russia with the with the with the putin regime and then of the challenge. I think the west should continue sanctioning especially the only gox the corrupt top of the Russian Society how have a lot of assets in europe and there have been a lot of investigations coming out im not saying that the western powers should act on the pointers from the team thats definitely not the case but that they should maybe have a better look of people who get european citizenship the practice of the golden passports socalled cyprus has been discontinued for now but a lot of people have got them so practices like this as long as Something Like this is happening in the west putin and the likes of him have the full freedom to claim theyre not better than us you know i think theres actually one good develop in the United States is with a law that was passed in december its now going to ban the ability of Shell Companies to own real estate assets to the United States i suspect theres a huge amount of real estate in miami in new york thats owned by russian oligarchs probably ukraine oligarchs and its all through the Shell Companies so we dont know who youre going to have to now disclose the Beneficial Owner and that will be useful in a number of ways be very exam. But if theres a decision and a target individual or were dark we dont know who to go after because it without a 2nd idea which i hesitate because its somewhat unamerican we dont tend to hold families responsible for the act of a father but i do wonder if the west look at sanctioning not just the oligarch but families mean if an oligarch cant travel to europe thats one thing but if the spouse cant make her and your shopping trip to london or if the kids cant go to college that might have a different impact and its harsh you know but you know it might be a way to target some sanctions that actually begin to stir up some concern among the people who are i think or close in the putin inner circle it sounds very plausible to me that you know more about these things alexander tell us is that they have problems. Doing this because you many of these people have british or german or american citizenship and you cant punish your sanction your own citizens in this way and of course people want to i dont want to sound cynical but direct russian money of course for the old banks of foreign corporate and the west and the and the very real problem icing. Is i dont know what to do but i think that if the sanctions will be too harsh if for example not stream 2 will be completely stopped and the whole is assigned to look to put you in we it when we are against you then this will mobilize of course more and more people not for but against not violently and against the west in russia we should see this. One thing that people feel as i followed the story in the past couple of weeks one thing that people have said a lot of people have said is that theyre very impressed by the courage shown by alex and of nevada and returning to the country and i want because it has been talks about him because he has indicated that he has thought about it and then we need to understand the gravity of the situation here wolf this is the question is his life at risk. I think nobody is completely safe in the russian jail as we know from the case of mr magnitsky and how many of us. Lets not forget about the covert outbreak which obviously have brakes of covert russian jails and i dont think healthy after the chemical attack you can be a 100 percent healthy. I mean i think the Russian Security services tried to kill him once that should be a message and certainly i think hes at risk of spending a long time in jail i mean they will find reasons to keep him in jail again though theres that question is that the smart thing for the kremlin to do because to the extent that they either keep him in jail or if in fact you know he does die under mysterious circumstances you know thats going to make him more of a martyr and how does that then react and with the population that certain crimes reported he has already left have been known that he will not commit suicide he will not take his own life and that seems to be a sort of a reassurance to the world that you know or reassurance not an indication that he believes its who you know he could be knocked off if something happens hes saying it wasnt by my own hand but he wants doesnt want to give up he wants to fight for the presidency i think he wants to become the top man in russia and therefore he had to return there was no alternative no option for him to stay here and work for a. Bunch of hello or for someone else i mean for Radio Liberty i mean that would be his fate here of course he wants to go back to fight of the most you would lose of course his electorate and i think that was the kremlin so that he would simply he would say they are in the dilemma of the crime and what are they going to do to bring him into prison this will highlight this points again and made him even more popular to be after him over of. Course but you know to kill to poison him would be even more disastrous mistake so its an option out like to germany stripped of citizenship sent into exile imagines it will happen will happen but. I think that this is one of the better lives. Options which in the end make up we began with daria so lets give daria the final word here. People in the west like to talk about it so very often liberals in the west talk about the ultimate demise of. Russia be a better place after i think there is a chance to improve for russia. But its not a guarantee. For all we know you could have some kind of political. No thing its gonna be a wild play. Thanks very much for joining us for the conversation. If you have enjoyed the show come back next time and by inches. Passengers here are informed by. Drivers here need nerves of steel. While passengers here can get an eyeful along the way. Taxis accommodate passengers over the world. Drive the ceiling. Red. Im sure that of us are. In support of. Whats able. To deliver on. Every journey begins with the 1st step and every language the 1st word the most critical. Piece in germany. Why not the most telling. Us its simple common on your mobile and free. T. W. Zeal or ning course cost me german made easy. The fight against the corona virus pandemic. Has the rate of infection been developing. What measures are being taken. What does the latest research say. Information and context. The coronavirus of the code special monday to friday on w. Life on earth the coming to an end. A gigantic coincidence. 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