Transcripts For DW The 20240703

Find out about robina story in some language. Reliable news for migraines . Wherever they may be, the if youve ever worked in an office, you know, its often hard to concentrate and then there are the endless meetings. The tip, somebody mentioned the paperless office. And if you want a decision, youll have to wait for a bigger meeting. To raise your spirits to go to town halls and hear from motivational speakers. You remember the time when you had one goals, but now you have to read 3. Many sounds familiar with all these examples taken from this is the 2nd world war sabotage, minute distributed through resistance fighters and occupied europe to cripple the enemy was somehow weve taken the methods of sabotage and disruption until the intern for the day at the office. How did this, how if we start with key. Okay. And the 50 now what we think that so tell us some training. Tell us a little bit about what teams predicted and about what the hell went wrong. It just will change sort of thing in the 1930 and you just trying to read something optimistic and imagine what the world would be like. For the most part, when people back then imagine what the world would be like, everyone thought, well, industrialization, its miserable, but its going to lead us in a direction where the technology is going to advance so far that were all going to be living lives of leisure so well have robot sermons taking care of us. Well have automation will eliminate the drudgery of farm work factory work eventually service work as well. And that was the way the point of all of this onerous off work that people were doing in factory. And this will eventually get to the point where you dont have to do it anymore. The, globally, were getting to the point where we could be working 15 hours. So, the question is, why arent the soaps . So whats, what really happened is that weve created a piece of administrative offices, jobs, and these have gone from Something Like 25 percent of employment in which they were in kansas time, Something Like 70. 00, the created supervisory job as managerial jobs, clerical jobs, the millions and millions and millions of them around the world. The and one of the things that really struck in a lot of the testimony is that people sent to me about their jobs was trust, how unhappy they were. And just to confuse they were over the fact that they were on the theres always a shame about expressing how you feel, Edward Constance charades, your putting up. And then you can never really be honest. I mean, you, of course, you know, you want a will on his own us about the manager ill or the director because the using the same sure raise. So you only see off of them. So wait, wait, wait, wait, in this. Sure. Reality is, is display the plays plays, dont the original sabotage manual weve not just started a script, but weve added many new scenes about right the like any place this to has a cost is curtis. The star of this to is a chief executive officer who has a star salary to match the ceos may role because to give the big model of a stronger natural box with which to be more successful. This speech is often rigid in front of us, very little to do with how the play will turn on. We are now delivery of the best products we have never known. The paying the more doesnt seem to make them any better. As all too often they are the stars of spectacular faith. It continues to be an exciting time for devices and services. When we remain here the for the one coast that is never calculated is the human cost of all these pages or the disruptive reorganizations. And the unhappiness that goes on speak the i had finished my ph. D in experimental social psychology. So i had been trained to do research in the lab. And i got my job um, uh at the university of california berkeley. And i was thinking maybe what ill do is ill develop some new ideas about emotions which i had done Laboratory Research on and how people understand their feelings, how they cope with really strong emotional arousal or threatening challenging kind of things. And i thought, well, why dont i go out and talk to people who encounter this sometimes in their life. And i started interviewing them and they got emotional doing this. Some of them would get angry as they talked about things, some of them would cry, some of them with, i mean, this was like, im thinking maybe theres a sort here, maybe theres a more of a phenomenon. So i would ask people at the end of the interview, things like so when you talk about this with other people, do you have kind of a name for this . I mean, is there a way you share this . Usually it was, i never talk about this with anybody. I dont want anybody to know me. So i started looking at the literature and trying to come up with concepts. It seems like it would capture what people were telling me. And there was the human ization and self defense. Oh no, no, no, no, you know, its like too much baggage. Theyre the dehumanization know, you know, you know, kind of then okay. Okay. What about detached concern . Well, um, you know, its kind of like midwest but its oil water. I cant, it doesnt, you know, didnt really do it. So i was still trying to figure out how to talk to people or about what they were telling me. And so i would ask the next interviews at the end, you know, human ization, self defense, and then on a task concern burn out. Yes. Thats it burned out. I was the 1st physical that completes x ocean. But this was like an exhaustion which was totally new to me. But it was really intense dykes so intense. I barely get out of bed physically. I live on the 1st floor. I could, i could not walk up to stare literally. I to hold myself off way through or still applies even and catch my breath. It was just, i felt like a like a like a 19 year old in a very bad states. What i did for i thought it was flu and a one point im not g b i went to my gp and you really . Yeah. Put it in front of me is at this for you. Youve got all the symbolism garage and yeah, there is no, i remember very well what going back to work after and i think it was a good 5 months of, of being absent and and i, i went back to work to try and walk to the office i really i remember very well like going to whats now what happens to me it was really like i was confused, confused, angry dish oriented actually was really built into my mind then was like, where the hell did i lose . Know my ex is me which how come that i can diesel is freaking highway to where im at now, but i should have missed my excess that thats what comes of my life. I missed the freaking action. The i wanted to become an engineer because my grandfather was thoughts. I want to be effective and efficient, so always adding a bar to provide reflection isnt in order to show that your successful forces your because you just dont even know your body is hang on us then then was you really fall into this new world . Its almost like a new reality, my whole self and i can my to best which i was actually sailing on my, my life. I realized a cool because this is right. Because otherwise i wouldnt be there. You feel like a yeah. Like a failure because the, youre one of those people who fell through the through the gates into the visual burnouts and thats all down to you. If you think its only you or very few people, you know, as opposed to more then focus automatically goes. So whats my problem . Why am i not Strong Enough . Why am i not capable enough the . And so what we saw early on was what a phenomenon that is known as pluralistic ignorance. And what that means is that youre feeling something is going wrong. Not just the tier, exhaustively got too much to do with your short changing the work. Youre not doing a good job and you know what and youre feeling bad about yourself. Well, youre not going to go over and chat with somebody in the coffee about tell them feeling no, what youre going to do is youre going to put a smile on your face. Im fine. I can handle this, i can do it. Okay, and just move along. I hope nobody notices what you dont know is that there are a lot of other people around you were doing the very same thing. So your social perception is that everybody is smiling, happy doing fine. Im the only one whos got a problem. When in fact, the reality is behind those masks behind that smiling face. There are a lot of other peoples thinking, oh my god, im the only one the for on top of the problem of not being able to say what you really feel the costs thats on you dont understand with anybodys saying so if you think about your average amazing, the social contract does this. Youll sit there and speak nonsense. And also they quietly and not listen to you and check my emails, whether its vacant, nonsense, power and transformation, and accelerating adoption. And enables the new experiences make to, to enable the application to truly how to speak the language and management. So i play mccarren, nicole ch, hows cry . He was sweats up and the kind of new age mysticism, which was washing across the west coast during the sixties and seventies. Crime gets um, hired by pacific bell. And his job is to come in and engage in lubbock full of transformational change project workshop participants to take part in an exercise design to reception and and 0. 03. Regions of crimes roll was really to kind of re program the employees by introducing them to his own personal philosophy, which was drawn from a russian mistake called george patriots and devoted scales of good tree and would often engage mystical dogs, things, resizing, mystical poetry, et cetera. And the Board Members of pacific bell and particularly keen on this and i felt that their employee should get a bit of it as well. The now to look back to that language now. It sounded scandalous and strange at the time, but now that kind of everyday language, people need a justification for what theyre doing for the needs of language, which makes these empty tasks, which people havent companies, it gives them some substance or apparent substance. So it is the sense that cronin provides a way of covering up the gaping home, which is corporate life. Often go back to the, to the, to the like, you, with the cause of the, the burnouts. What would you say if you guys would narrow down to only a few topics . Whats, whats for you guys . What, what would you name as the the key, the key drivers of your uh yeah. I think its been like coming out like like mild symptoms, but mostly like i felt really strong was i think back in march this year where i kind of like fall myself not being able to do daily stuff like running errands or like talking to people like where i felt like over whelmed, by doing i like waiting myself up like 1st my to sit on the table. That was the hardest thing to do in the morning. And that was like the prominent symptom for me to like recognize that oh i have a problem i have its, im embarrassing to me, but i actually sometimes felt that it would be easier if i would appreciate buy a car in the morning on my way to work because thats where solve the problem of not having to go there. Thats, that was like how deep i was in my own misery. Like its just like it felt so anxious and like impossible even sometimes to, to go to work because i knew like that what was the waiting. And i just felt like if somebody or something outside of me would solve the problem, then i wouldnt have to like, think about it. But like these are things that ive only realized opposite words. I totally refused to idea that it was somewhere. Now i just felt like on invincible, i can know how theyre now. This kind of happened to me again. So it was kind of hard for me to start to realize of mit accept and process it was to be a long the long process for me. When they talk about exhaustion, if thats all it is, then why change the name . Why just call it what it is, which is exhausting with burn out. Were talking about more than that. The exhaustion response is what we think of that stress. It is the stress response. Chronic everyday stressors. Burnout is a signal, its a red flag. Its a warning if you start seeing problems with burn out, its telling you not who is burning out. Its telling you why the and the 19th century link, all this invention of a new professional class of people who manages those managers often came from a, an engineering background. So they were quite good at sort of shooting the machinery. They began to see the people as cog so they could potentially tune and make more efficient as well. The, in the late 19 seventys, a corporation and company is no longer treated as a entity with people. And thats the purpose of the corporation is to maximize shareholder value. Companies began to cite how much human capital, if theyve gone. And they began to trade their employees like a kind of Balance Sheet which they could measure, manage as if by having our history as if i have no family as if they have no attachment to place. Thats not even just the call that the machine itself is occurring, digital line on a bell and save some way that can be easily deleted and the price of it takes the, the burnout is all an engineering. I mean, rocket boosters, burnouts, you know, ball bearings, burnouts. So its not a surprise that when they started Silicon Valley start ups, they called them burnout shops. They advertised his burn out shops because this is what the life is going to be like. But it was intended to be limited time is intended to be a sprint 2. 00 to 4. 00 or 5 years. Max is now the model for ameristock. The. This is the way we do business all the time. For years, human body cannot run a marathon at a sprint, pays the most people come to work, really want to make a difference. And it starts with the most basic, clear expectations. So when people come to work, they need to know what theyre rollers and too often in organizations. Now, people dont. The, one of the great challenges of leadership is bringing teams together, creating a common purpose. How that mission or purpose comes to life is the manager. Its the manager that helps out employees see how that work connects to that bigger picture. Oftentimes we put people in managerial positions for a couple reasons. We asked managers, how do you get into your job . One change and other organization a long time to i was really successful as an individual contributor before, as a manager. And neither of those 2 things correlate with being an effective manager. The motivation is going to be a manager because ill probably get paid more of feel like ive reached a higher level in the organization. Those are to human nature motivations that its hard to get people out of unless you have a path where somebody can see they have a highest team position, maybe even paid more than managers for being an exceptional individual contributor. The they may not think about people as individuals, may not even naturally care about them as individuals that much. So they think almost completely about the work itself, not about how that person can develop over time. So what it does is it deteriorates the culture of the team, but it also isnt good for the manager. But thats the system or the right the passage thats work thats happened inside organizations. If youre gonna ask you what a root cause of all this is that, that would be one of them. Heres the financial logic. To make somebody a manage it just because the good of doing a sudden job and you pay the more not to do the job anymore. And instead of do a job that theyre not qualified to do with the results of the productivity of everybody else. And the team goes done, but you still have to pay the salaries. Meanwhile, the new manager has to prove to his boss that hes still getting results. So he has a Management Consultant to try and fix the problem. It produces a cool report. The task at time changes nothing but you still pay the consultant the well, i mean, i know how many managers i have that i was and i think only 2. So maybe 10 percent, which you could, id really, really have a personal. The conversation was which made it to a complete difference in how i was actually doing. My job is to ask a quick question. Its something that, that everybody is touched upon here. You know, you talk about the expectations from childhood, about working life. Do you remember a specific instance of that clash between expectations and reality . I will start thinking about this. So yes, i, i mentioned earlier on the big sister and the family and i have a the list associates 3 of us younger than i am. And we are very different and she is the, the was spirit and the one who has been searching for herself for her entire life where us ive been the more of the a rational one perhaps, and the one who gets good grades and like, just like do what the society is expecting me to do, and thats why i said, or the other day i felt like there was this train for me. So i, i jump on the train, then there is the school. You got the good results. You do good. Dont upset the teachers then of course i will go to uni its law school or middle school or whatever. See the good girl . Maybe the point is like i, i feel like i was something. And then i was like shaped into like, suffocated into being like Something Else, something less, something smaller. And, and thats why i kind of develop the sense that im, im not good enough and i am, there is something wrong with like, there is something fundamentally deeply wrong with me as a human being. And perhaps that is something that ive been trying to kind of spend, im 6 through these different achievements in life like goats that go to you and you get those results because i felt that that is my responsibility. As vanessa s, as the person, i am like i am the person who is supposed to do these things. One of the things that is fascinated me over the years is education. Its almost designed to destroy the natural curiosity. We have is some, you know, when you are in primary education, theyre beating that out or destroying that natural curiosity. Then when you go to higher education, the kind of halfway you never quite get back to where you were when you were 5. But you know, maybe you get a little just enough that you can function as an intellectual. Many of the rituals and structures of primary education are designed to prepare people for factory later. So thats why they have bells ringing in the after get up isnt they have to move from room to room . Theres a particular reason, except the interesting questions for me is one of the still do it because its not like very many kids going to school are going to be working in factories anymore. The flight conclusion is about layer preparing us for a life that isnt gonna make a lot of sense. The, theyre teaching us not to ask questions about the things that any intelligent person who hadnt been so trained would like. But why are we throwing out this for him if we dont get any money either way, any way . Why are we reading this report . Is nobodys going to read all these things that anybody, animals, that job really should be asking, but those as the condition of their employment that they should be able guy shows up at a white coat are acting like, even though its already faster than nokia has ever gone before, just play alone the children 1st to figure out that they are separate from the world around them. When they realize they can have predictable facts, we interest scenario or say childs and moving his arms around. And he moves a pencil, pencil there, and for rules down the table. And these figures out that happens the bruises. And again, it was a little further. This is great. What a god, you know, i mean i am an entity that cannot effect something that and thats the moment you realize you were a person. And there was a world in there, theyre not the same thing. The and, and then you take that away. People just collapse of satyrs, their sense of self really bring basis. What makes us human are feeling the, the, it strikes me that we need to re evaluate what we see as valuable in late because we, if we have got to a situation where millions and millions of people around the world are coming into work every day saying there is no social value and when i do it pointless, there is a clash between what the market dictates, what our Economic System identifies as valuable and what people actually feel in their hearts is valuable. Theres a disjuncture, people feel theres something terribly wrong. They have some kind of know that well work needs peoples needs, desires that take it, it, it, its about furthering something in humans that we wish to further. So when you enter a company, they make you feel like your blood work. You find them that they choose you to work for them and its up to you to apply for the job. But they kind of pick up the look you up all hope to know or. And they choose you to be the last one working for them. So that you kind of have to feel your life is the company live. So you dont have an identity anymore. But you are the company, the we say like when you press the button and you open it. If the finish on you will get married in 3 years, ive been assisting 2 or 3 of the organization, or people have been losing their jobs for people whove been crying. What they were were working sense plenty of some more. So in the back of my head, i always had best like your giving the best of yourself to this company. But remember one day they will call you and say you have to bunch of stuff in a week. I had a relationship for a few years. So we were living together and of course we decided to start a family together. And then um, we could not buy a house together to, to our incomes because it was just too low. I was the one of the 2 had a better contract. I had a better income, so i felt like if i fail in this job, we will not buy a house. So we will not build up a family will be all my fault. So sweet distress at home i was doing extra work at home. So was not really there for the couple for living together at that point, what happened to me is that i work too much at the points that i kind of the so as my private life was very frustrated because i thought id work hard for more than 20 years, i want to settle down. I want to have kids. I want to do this kind of things and i cannot. The corporations are a grand example of the emperor has no clothes. Its all about from us. Its all about what were going to do in the future. Constantly on the going these change processes, reorganization restructuring, downsizing, rightsizing. I basically my peoples, you shifts around the signs, but very little at the end of the day actually changes we know lots of people. Many people who lose the job but often becomes extremely stressful for the people who die. Often those things have done not necessarily because they need to be done, because the seo has to show that somethings happening. The co 1000 and phrase is financial. And lets say the price, so make a recommendation of what they think the price of a shares should be. Nothing actually changes on how well the company does, but the share price goes up because theyve sent the right thing to the financial lock. But that also means because the c, i was often rewarded on the basis of stop option. So share price, pay goes up the what is the most pernicious thing about our current economic says, is that the more your work benefits others are an obvious and immediate sense . The more your work has a clear and undeniable beneficial effect than other human beings. The less you are likely to get paid for the if you look at the graphs, we just basically say it was completely flat, whereas part time it, it continues to rise precipitously. So the big question is, whats happened to that extra profit . A gap left the story we tell ourselves of this time is not entirely on true, is a, it all got pumped into finance, basically is profits went to richest one percent of the population. And they basically are gambling the o surrounding all my life to san diego and get a job in a company. And so it could have a good life. Im going to buy an amazing house, you know, for myself and then i want to be single and travel for a long time. And then i want to have kids and set them down and its just a big dream and its just an illusion. The for me to gave up to so much of my private life and then also have a i receiving the results that i expect to to it was just mind blowing timeframe stopped working. I couldnt tell you like, this is the feeling that i have now like something break inside my brain. And i, i could not picture how that happened. It was unbelievable. The, the original sabotage manual was working for a world where most people who worked corporate to the machine the but we being just as effective as sabotaging work in our old web. Most work relies not on the machine but on the brain power of humans. The also so the original manual would have been amazed at how effective our sabotage has been. Only 20 percent of the workforce are engaged in their work. Those that manage them. A seldom qualified for the job. And the less of the benefits of what goes to those who do the work. Why are we creating ways Society Creating an environment in which people are doing really good work necessary work, beneficial work and making them do it in a way that it just sort of tells them apart and you know, how big oh so how to make or that realization that the setting and the environment in which people function really, you know, as much as possible. How do we design it to make people really grow and thrive . Weve known for a long time all about organ nomics that we have to design furniture and tools that adapt to the human body. You may not like the way the human body was designed, but thats the way it functions. I guess im talking more about or good nomics in terms of the social psychological, what makes people tick. This is the way things may and they seem to come during some a person a because or lots and lots, all the other at the moment. And im actually for the 1st time in 20 years doing something i really care about. I feel like im making a difference. Im working in a meaningful industry. And um, but yet im still experiencing the symptoms of of, of it. Oh, no, sorry. How of a still cool. So this stage, what is this going wrong . You know, what is it the of done wrong night available . Why am i having panic attacks . Is it, is it because of you and i could have the same job and theres something out there that drives you crazy. And im ok, or what has been discovered in a lot of research by lot of people is at least 6 areas where that kind of job person balance or in balance of fits or the missed that occurs. That can be predictive if theyre, if its a good fit of great or engagement with the work, if its a bad fit, the risk of burnout becomes more of a problem. The workload is, was always huge. And there is no like, uh long term projects. Its always like for yesterday that you need to deliver. So the one that everybody thinks about is workload. And that is the one that is probably most clearly tied to problems with exhaustion. And basically the in balance there are the best fit is that the demands are really high and the resources to handle those demands are low. You dont have enough time. You dont have the right information. You dont have the tools, you dont, you know, theres no way that that can be done given, given that way. Instead of ever having 1st major rating issue, one task can tomorrow have plenty more because they need to expand to other countries. The 2nd one is control, and thats really the extent to which you have some choice and discretion, some autonomy, some way of deciding how best to do the job given what it is like today. As opposed to you have no discretion, no choice. You must do this and what we find is its not so much workload, but if you have high workload and you have high control, no problem. When you have high work or no control, its like so such as pushing up the rock and all of a sudden end of the day. Just back in the when there is in sufficient reward. That means that no matter what you do, how successful you are, how great you are, meeting the deadlines and getting things done and something no good feedback comes. The reward is not just about the salary or the benefits. Mean, i dont want to throw that out, but i mean, national, usually the biggest, the big is, are the social recognition, the appreciation that somebody noticed you really, you know, oh my gosh, you really got out of a bind there by the thing that you did and all thanks so much i, you know, we couldnt have done it without you. Little things like that. Also go down. Im going to have to logo in my eyes. So you know, but just people could around light is on the 8th. And the, because it was light, you know, and you have to leave them free by muse and it needs to be a change agent. And you need to do this and you need to do that. Community is really the, the, the social environment that you are the people who come in contact on a regular basis. Okay. We have a flexible type, you know, have a Flexible Working time, but every day 10 am and have a meeting. Sorry. Okay, this flexible like youre giving me okay. I could get i work from 12 to 9, no way it works well when there is social support, mutual, social support, you know, we sort of help each other out. If somebody is unclear, we kind of clarify when there is trust when there is kind of respect for each other. And uh, you know, notion of reciprocity. When all of that is working well, and quite honestly, it is like money in the bank, even though i give them the message, listen guys, this is too much for me and i got a burnout because of this. They dont care. They just like hide the problem and they keep on doing whatever they have to do when people feel they are working in a place that is unfair, the trees, people unfairly this will raise the level of that cynicism sky high. And if there is a value conflict is even worse. We need to take into account or human beings are like and how they function. What makes them motivated . What makes them do great things . What do they need to recharge and reboot and you know, have a life the for generations. People thought they were working really hard to some day create a world where people dont have to work something thats where robots will do the, the unpleasant directory, repetitive skills of labor that nobody really wants to do. The, now were living under a system, a capitalist market system, which is supposed to be efficient. It can allocate resources in a way that will guarantee maximum production and profitability. Maybe create, makes people unhappy, but ultimately it creates better good by being the most efficient system. Anybody can ever match the, i mean, any efficient system you think should be able to reallocate resources in such a way that we work last and everybodys still has about the heat. If we cant do that, theres something terribly wrong. I mean, we havent insanely ridiculously and assessments of the, i think we should change the way we think of the economy. Whats not talk about production and consumption. Honey. Looks work isnt actually making store of its, its not changing it even, you know, transforming it to make it into Something Else is trying to keep it the same. So hes gotta take care of things. So ill say fall apart. Then they tell us, well, you know, were going to create robots that will get rid of all our jobs. This is a big problem. Well, you cant have people have too much leisure time theyll fields consultants to press. Theyll just sit around watching tv all day. They wont, they wont be able to figure out what to do with themselves. People do want to contribute to the world, maybe a little better for the people around them and left to their own devices. Theyre more likely to do something useful then if that are not the so how do we know were not to have a world full of annoying st minds or, or sub had oh add search off of musicians. So the craig scientists will follow or periods or any paper virtual motion devices, and all we need is like one of those bad musicians to be miles davis or john, one of the craig scientists to be einstein. And you know, you pretty much made back your invest on the when the, [000 00 00;00] the, so thats the best and the middle. One of the truth of the is the most of the core is an addition from the west african chauncy. In concert halls. Lets with that. Then just to the 1st few minutes, dw, the key is to control people waiting for the most famous and to New York Times still employed for peace and freedom. Everything about in 90 minutes on the w, the do big Ocean View Companies play a role in the destruction of the rain forest. I have time to raise all over the brazilian. We process 30000. 00 hides a day and 90 percent of that is for the forward market. The auto industry, for example. The letter will actually cost awesome comes from initial casual funds in the amazon. Yet the Automobile Industry doesnt care about the supply chain process that must have a legal letter. The stats may stood on d w. What did you do before . Id say if the tenant she survived illustrates thanks to music. He was the nazis favorite conductor. He is martin, the, the genuine 2 musicians under the swastika documentary about this sounds of power inspiring story about survival of the home and you go get the tennis. I was the only one who lives in nazi germany. Watch now on youtube. D. W documentary code name project, cassandra, re determined through our investigation that has below was operating like a global drug car. Not somebody normally theaters, organization. The object to financially drain has gone up and bring them down. Suddenly we had in las vegas to attack at a terrace organization. Finance. The idea is the file, the money, the team agents from the American Drug enforcement agency. I was scared, but i mean as well as another whole of that one of the rest of the money i wanted to take down their findings. They had from lice themselves. We needed to reveal that so world and to their own people invited the Us Government suddenly shut down project cassandra in 2016. So the opportunity was was for our 3 pot documentary series on mossey has paula starts may 4th on d, w. The youre watching the double can use live front, a little pressure, garage on israel to secure the release of old hostages in gaza. Protest is demand action on the streets of tel aviv as how most release is the video climbing to show it to me and still being held. Israels foreign minister suggests any deal could see a plan defensive on rafa suspended. Also ahead k all said Ukrainian Passport Office is a broad as keith pushes to get military age men to come home and find the