Transcripts For GBN Jacob 20240704

About freedom and not slavery. About freedom and not slavery. State of the nation starts now , state of the nation starts now, so so. So. And ill also be joined by my most modern panel this evening. Former brexit mep and current sister, nancy the tories smog, and the author and broadcaster amy nicholl turner. Always, amy nicholl turner. As always, i want to hear from you. Its a crucial part of the programme. Email mailmogg gbnews. Com. Email me mailmogg gbnews. Com. But now its your favourite part of news with of the day. Its the news with polly middlehurst. Polly middlehurst. Jacob, thank you and good evening to you. Well, our top story from the gb newsroom tonight is that the government has suffered a fifth defeat to its flagship immigration policy, the rwanda bill, in the house of lords this evening. Peers voting lords this evening. Peers voting. By 277 to 167, in favour of a monitoring mechanism which would ensure safeguards in the bill will be fully implemented. And will be fully implemented. And that comes after two earlier defeats today, where the lords backed motions making sure the bill is fully compliant with the law nearly 50 amendments have been put forward so far, with more being voted on this evening and on wednesday they. And on wednesday they. Meanwhile, a record 385 migrants crossed the English Channel today , the largest number on today, the largest number on a single day this year. As gb news understands a seventh small boat crossed into uk waters this evening. It was carrying 49 migrants and it follows six other boats today , which were other boats today, which were carrying a total of 336 people who were intercepted by border force yesterday , the home office force yesterday, the home office recorded 327 people arriving in the uk after making the journey in eight small boats, suggesting an average of around 41 migrants per boat. The chancellor said per boat. The chancellor said today he wants to move the uk to a lower tax economy, but will only do so in a responsible way. Jeremy hunt was visiting a new digital Engineering Plant in wiltshire, where he also announced a £360 million funding boost for manufacturing. Income boost for manufacturing. Income tax has reached a historic high and while hes promised some cuts, the chancellor has been trying to manage expectations ahead of wednesdays budget. Ahead of wednesdays budget. He wants to move to a lower tax economy, but were only going to do so in a way that is responsible and recognises that , responsible and recognises that, that there are things that taxes pay that there are things that taxes pay for, that we couldnt cut taxes by borrowing. Well do so taxes by borrowing. Well do so in a responsible way. But if we can spend money on public services, more efficient then that will mean less pressure on taxpayers. Taxpayers. The newly elected rochdale mp George Galloway , was sworn into George Galloway, was sworn into parliament today. The Workers Parliament today. The Workers Party of britain leader pledged allegiance to the king as part of the ceremony after winning last nights rochdale by election last weeks rochdale by election last weeks rochdale by election rather by more than 5500 votes. Speaking today, he said its my job to try to make rochdale great again and the rnli is celebrating saving more than 146,000 lives as it marks its 200th anniversary. The duke of kent was among those attending a service of thanksgiving at Westminster Abbey today, during which the archbishop of canterbury praised volunteers as models for everyone who risked their lives for people they didnt even know. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution was founded in a london pub, 200 years ago as a service to save ships and crew from dangerous coastlines for the very latest stories, do sign up for gb news alerts. Scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. Com slash alerts. To gb news. Com slash alerts. Why does George Galloway matter . Hes a maverick, a one off. He shamefully defended saddam hussein, but he magisterially took to pieces a pompous us senate committee. He shares the recent record with Winston Churchill for being elected for four different constituencies. Four different constituencies. He is a Political Force of nature, charismatic but dangerous , the abilities of dangerous, the abilities of a demagogue. But the charm of a seasoned politician. He matters seasoned politician. He matters because of the effect he has on the labour party, and because of what he tells us about modern britain. In what he tells us about modern britain. In terms of the what he tells us about modern britain. In terms of the labour britain. In terms of the labour Party Emphasis is the divide that keir starmer has to try to straddle. Starmer wants to eradicate the anti semitism that flourished under his predecessor, jeremy corbyn. He has expelled members and even suspended his support for the labour candidate in the rochdale by election. However, the success of galloway shows that there can be an electoral advantage in in appealing to the islamist vote. This is beyond appealing to the muslim vote, but to those who have sympathy with the perpetrators of the violence. On the 7th of october, violence. On the 7th of october, the words of Chris Williamson about auschwitz show how deep and unpleasant this is , and the and unpleasant this is, and the willingness of galloways acolytes to appeal to this bassist form of nature. Wrong a body of opinion that suggests that the labour party deliberate , uh, you know, deliberate, uh, you know, through their man under the bus because they knew that they were on course to lose this election and lose it quite badly to George Galloway. And by throwing George Galloway. And by throwing Chris Williamson, are you seriously suggesting under the bus, as it were, the labour party wanted its candidate to spout anti semitic words that this was somehow an internal plot . I mean , thats just the i mean, thats just the territory of Conspiracy Theory and lunacy. Surely. And lunacy. Surely. Well, no, its not. And secondly, it wasnt anti semitic. What he said. I mean, you know, the theory, which is not one i subscribe to, nor does George Galloway, but its a theory that was carried in the new times, no less. Its new york times, no less. Its been by israeli media as been carried by israeli media as well. Wonder hes quite happy well. No wonder hes quite happy to sit on his hands whilst israel is implementing a genocide in gaza. Massacre in people on a daily basis. You know , theyre actually killing know, theyre actually killing more children every day than actually were being killed in auschwitz. This revolting view , auschwitz. This revolting view, disgusting, wicked view turned out to be electorally successful and it will create pressure on other mps to follow suit , suit other mps to follow suit, suit those in seats that have a significant muslim electorate may feel that starmers support for israel and strong anti war opposition to anti semitism is electorally risky. The labour party has tried for many years to put together a coalition of minorities, but this ultimately becomes problematic because it divides rather than unites the country. Rather than unites the country. It encourages those who have come here to emphasise separateness rather than unity. So Thangam Debbonaire his recent comments on rural britannia, which are trivial in and of themselves, and well talk about in passing later , are indicative in passing later, are indicative of a labour approach that is unsympathetic the idea of unsympathetic to the idea of being british. Now these arent British Values as such which are difficult to define, but its a reluctance to be proud of this country. Its history, its achievements over many centuries , and to unite with it and with its people through a sense of patriotism that has brought us all together in the past. George all together in the past. George galloways victory pushes in the other direction when it weaponises separately this, and thats why its important because it divides the labour party. And thats a problem party. And thats a problem because all good democracies need a powerful and effective opposition party. But if the labour party were to win an election on this weaponise separateness, it would of course , divide the nation and creates real risk through that. So if you have a situation that George Galloway is creating of a separate , divided labour party separate, divided labour party thatis separate, divided labour party that is using this to push electoral success, then you divide the nation and you undermine our democratic principles. As ever, let me know what you think mailmogg gbnews. Com. Um, and im mailmogg gbnews. Com. Um, and im delighted now to be joined by rakib hasan, the Research Analyst and author of beyond grievance what the left gets wrong about ethnic minorities. Wrong about ethnic minorities. Thank you for coming in. How are concerned do you think we should be about this victory for George Galloway . Galloway . Well, i think it certainly concerns the political establishment. I think its sent shockwaves throughout the british establishment. British political establishment. And along with George Galloway winning the by election, its worth that david tully, worth noting that david tully, an independent candidate, he finished second and galloway won more votes than the total combined for the conservatives, laboun combined for the conservatives, labour, liberal democrats and reform. In terms of concern varne, i think that labour will be particularly concerned and i think theres been somewhat think that theres been somewhat of overcorrection , of a post corbyn overcorrection, if you could call it that, where i do think under starmers leadership , perhaps the poi has leadership, perhaps the poi has become overly pro israel , become overly pro israel, adopting a largely uncritical view of the actions of the Israeli Government. Uh, its cosying up to big business. I think its worth noting that George Galloway and some of his electoral communication, he emphasised local emphasised the value of local businesses lifeblood businesses being the lifeblood of communities. So i think of local communities. So i think that the idea that this was a gaza only campaign, i dont think thats strictly accurate, but that was the first thing that George Galloway said. That George Galloway said. He said this was for gaza. So clearly george feels clearly George Galloway feels that was main that that was the main reason behind strong behind that was a strong component of the campaigning. Think point id but i think the point id make his electoral make that his electoral popularity is not confined and within. How do you say palestine focussed muslim communities . In focussed muslim communities . In fact, though i think he could be quite competitive and he could be concern labour in more be a concern for labour in more pro brexit protectionist , white pro brexit protectionist, White British working class communities. Communities. But he hasnt got to that stage yet. This was very much based on a sectarian vote. His success in rochdale , rather than success in rochdale, rather than a broader appeal. It doesnt a broader appeal. It doesnt seem that he had that broader appealin seem that he had that broader appeal in rochdale. Well, i think that in terms of that broader appeal, i think id make the point that rochdale as a constituency , he has a that 30 constituency, he has a that 30 of the constituency in rochdale are muslim. Were not talking about a constituency like Birmingham Hall green or hodge hill, where the majority of constituents are muslim. So 7 in 10 constituents in constituency are in the constituency are non muslim. I think its worth making. Making that point. Yes, the turnout was it yes, but the turnout was it was. Was low. Thats right. And itll be a lot higher in a general election, a general election. Lot higher in a general electiorin a general election. Lot higher in a general electiorin those neral election. Lot higher in a general electiorin those seats election. Lot higher in a general electiorin those seats where n. But in those seats where there is an even higher Muslim Population, do you think that labour be very labour candidates will be very tempted galloway tempted to follow the galloway approach and try weaponize approach and try and weaponize the separateness . Well, id make the point that this idea micro targeting this idea of micro targeting being a New Invention in british politics is simply not true. Now, ive lived my entire life in luton, and i can tell you now that labours political messaging in an area such as bury park, which has a large Muslim Population , is very Muslim Population, is very different to his electoral communication in stopsley, which doesnt such a high muslim doesnt have such a high Muslim Population. This idea of population. So this idea of a micro targeting , i wouldnt say micro targeting, i wouldnt say that galloway is unique in adopting such electoral methods. Adopting such electoral methods. No, i the labour party no, i think the labour party has create a majority has tried to create a majority of minorities , um, over many of minorities, um, over many years and actually Ken Livingstone tried that in london in the 1980s. That was part of what, um, drove him was to create this coalition of minorities. But that seems to me to be ultimately very divisive. To be ultimately very divisive. And its very important to have a single concept of britishness thatis a single concept of britishness that is valid across the country. And its why ive defended of all people. Shamima begum was right to have a british passport because i think that youre either british or youre not, and that you dont want to divide britons up into little boxes. Indeed, and it risks creating a two tier citizenship. In that a two tier citizenship. In that case, i think that in terms of labour party, what theyve tried to do, they tried to appeal to a variety of tribal interest outs. But think the point that ive but i think the point that ive made is that you cannot be the political stonewall political arm of stonewall and also british also the party of british muslim tradition thats quite difficult well, thats quite difficult for them, except you saw people in palestine marches as lgbt in the palestine marches as lgbt plus people for palestine , which plus people for palestine, which seemed to me very odd when hamas is running palestine and how did all running gaza, how on earth did they manage to do that . But that coalition on the far left does to there. Does seem to be there. And think that no, indeed. And i think that what with starmers leadership, i somewhat i think labour is somewhat vulnerable anti establishment vulnerable to anti establishment candidate s who emphasise the value of local businesses. Perhaps scepticism of either the labour party being too close to big business, uh, adopting a staunchly pro palestine view when it comes to events in the middle east. But whats really interesting is that starmer has largely retained that trans radicalism of corbyn era , radicalism of the corbyn era, which means that also which means that hes also vulnerable anti establishment vulnerable to anti establishment candidates biological candidates who defend biological reality in the of reality in the name of traditional family values. Traditional family values. That case, um, hes so in that case, um, hes facing a real difficulty because candidates will look at the result out in rochdale and think, well, George Galloway has achieved it by doing this. Therefore i cant toe the party line. I must, um, go in the way. Galloway has gone. I must emphasise my support for the palestinians cause and my opposition to watch the Israeli Government is doing that makes it much harder for him to root out the appearance of antisemite ism, regardless of the of the reality, and much harder for him to unite the party. No, indeed. But i think that id make a distinction between fighting anti semitism. But also you can anti semitism. But also you can fight anti semitism, but also be critical of the actions of the Israeli Government. I agree that. What i agree with that. But what Chris Williams said was horrible, comparison Chris Williams said was horri auschwitz comparison Chris Williams said was horri auschwitz . Comparison with auschwitz . Oh no, no, listen, i have no respect for chris as respect for Chris Williamson as an individual. I think that what an individual. I think that what labour should do have that firm message anti semites message of fighting anti semites ism, and theres room for ism, and theres no room for antisemitic conspiracy theories orindeed antisemitic conspiracy theories or indeed conspiracy theories about israel in my view, theres plenty to criticise Israeli Government when it comes to government over when it comes to various forms of militaristic occupation and population displacement. I think that you can fight anti jewish hatred but also solidarity with the also express solidarity with the Palestinian People. I think that is possible position. Is a possible position. Its one that people have found difficult found very difficult to maintain, that maintain, havent they, that they tended from they have tended to slip from one to the other and that people whove opposed the state of israel have often ended up moving to a position where they dont want the state to exist at all. So its quite a fine line that people have tread. That people have to tread. Well, i think for me, i think theres strong theres actually a strong conservative statehood, which palestinian statehood, which is rooted National Sovereignty rooted in National Sovereignty and to and the right to self determination. I think that self determination. I think that what i want to see more what i want to see from more people left is that people on the left is that sticking to that firm message, that solidarity for the that Firm Solidarity for the palestinian without Palestinian People without indulging in antisemitic conspiracy theories. And id also make the that there also make the point that there are voices as are prominent jewish voices as well , who also expressed well, who have also expressed solidarity palestinian solidarity with the Palestinian People. So i think the key here is those important is sticking to those important arguments, rooted in arguments, which are rooted in evidence reason. Evidence and reason. You much indeed. Thank you very much indeed. Rakib coming up next are when will the house of lords learn that its there to maintain the constitution, rather to thwart the democratically elected will of the people . Plus, does of the people . Plus, does britain rule . No. Does rule britannia alienate people . Surely not. Uh well, welcome back. Uh, weve well, welcome back. Uh, weve been asking the question. Does George Galloway matter with his extreme views . And david says the only time i saw the brilliant Christopher Hitchens look defensive and unnerved was in the electrifying iraq war debate with George Galloway back in 2005. Parliament is a theatre, and i like to hear eloquent speech. Whether its nuts or not, which cadburys used to take and cover in chocolate. Those nuts , famous chocolate. Those nuts, famous nuts. Clive however repulsive this new mp is , he craves this new mp is, he craves pubuchy this new mp is, he craves publicity and hes now getting it in spades. The media could do us all a great favour by ignonng us all a great favour by ignoring him. Oh, thats such a good question. Do we just give good question. Do we just give pubuchy good question. Do we just give publicity to people who are dangerous and therefore help them . This afternoon , a majority them . This afternoon, a majority of noble lords voted in favour of noble lords voted in favour of an amendment to the safety of rwanda bill, which reads. This amendment seeks to ensure that the eventual act is fully compliant with the rule of law while full while maintaining full compliance with international and law. This poses and domestic law. This poses Serious Problems for the government because the original safety bill included not safety rwanda bill included not withstanding clause that was included to disapply International Law, the very International Law, the very International Law, the very International Law seen the International Law seen in the case of the echr blocking the original rwanda deportation flights. So now that this amendment has passed, the phenomenon known as ping pong is expected to commence with waf. I think, whereby the bill bounces back between the lords and the commons. But as theres not time for an election to use the parliament act, their lordships could block the bill altogether. Could block the bill altogether. Well, im joined by my panel, former brexit party mep anunciata rees mogg , and the anunciata rees mogg, and the author and broadcaster amy nicole turner. Amy do you believe in democracy . I certainly do, which would include a functioning judiciary. Why it to be in why would it not to be in keeping our constitution . Keeping with our constitution . Include an unelected would it include an unelected house override being the will of the british people as represented by their elected democratic um , uh, members of democratic um, uh, members of parliament . I think this Case Highlights the importance of our Second Chamber and also that our elected house is part of a wider constitution. Is it not . In five Supreme Court judges unanimously told us that this plan was dead in the water. That was completely bizarre. Decision because it decided that the judgement of the Un High Commissioner on refugees was better than the judgement of the british government. Its most extraordinary thing for a british to decide might British Court to decide might seem to you. Seem extraordinary to you. It does , because not job does, because its not the job of judges replace ministerial of judges to replace ministerial judgement with their judgement. Its to job uphold the its their to job uphold the law. Exactly what they and thats exactly what they did. Unfortunately, did. And unfortunately, you cannot legislate things that do not into reality. You not exist into reality. You cant legislate. Cant legislate. But thats nonsense. Sorry to be so blunt, but its not a matter of fact whether rwanda is safe. Its a matter of opinion and a matter of judgement. Its not. Is today monday , which not. Is today monday, which parliament cannot say today is tuesday and be correct. But it tuesday and be correct. But it can say that in our judgement this is safe and it seems to me the democratic judgement is better than the judicial judgement in this instance. I think it is most of the electorates opinion at this stage that the rwanda bill is garbage. That i think is very unlikely. Enunciator all right. Enunciator all right. If we want to talk about judgements, the un itself has decided that rwanda is a safe place and is sending people there. So you cant think that there. So you cant think that the judiciary are more knowledgeable , more insightful knowledgeable, more insightful than our elected democratic house, or indeed the Largest National body which i think often does get things wrong. But on this occasion is correct. Some things always happen, but were the example you used which youve used before on the program. So i looked into it because its an interesting example. So its an interesting example. So afghan girls were taken to rwanda to be schooled right. But rwanda to be schooled right. But that was a voluntary program. This is entirely different. No, ho. 110. No. But thats saying its saying rwanda is for some refugees rwanda is safe for some refugees to go in certain circumstances , to go in certain circumstances, and then they dont want us to look if look a scheme look at if we look at a scheme that similar, and know that was similar, and i know ive brought this up of ive brought this up loads of times before, was the israel scheme migrants died, scheme and migrants died, migrants missing. Migrants went missing. It was unsafe. Rwanda was proven to be unsafe those proven to be unsafe in those circumstances. Circumstances. And when the complaint first got raised that they might send people back to the country houses from which they had come illegally in the first place, and that that might make them unsafe for the rwandans, agreed to change the terms of the deal. So that they promise not to. Thatis so that they promise not to. That is that that element has gone as a threat. Amy, i think you touched on something that is fundamental because its what all the lords supporters of this amendment have said. Theyve said that parliament cannot vote to make black white. But this isnt making black white. Its a question of judgement. And in a democracy we should the judgement be taken by people who are accountable and can be removed, or should it be taken by people who are unaccountable and are there for a determined penod and are there for a determined period of time without removal by by votes . I think that this Supreme Court is showing its worth and why we need it and why we require it. And i do think its the job, the job of unelected officials in this capacity to do this. One thing i want to bring up. Do you accept that its a matter of judgement deciding whether a whether something is safe is a matter judgement rather than matter of judgement rather than of is ever any of hard facts. Is it ever any Court Decision in that sense, an opinion . But ultimately is not everything . Everything . No, not everyone is. Sometimes it is a straightforward fact. Did x murder y . But that is a matter thatis murder y . But that is a matter that is a matter of fact. There are straightforward facts that can see from the facts that we can see from the Supreme Court ruling. And draw on those and then you draw on those facts judgement. Facts to make a judgement. And it to me that must be the it seems to me that must be the right who are right of those who are accountable. The judges right of those who are accounttlords the judges right of those who are accounttlords are the judges right of those who are accounttlords are exceedingiges and the lords are exceeding their authority. Whats the point of having a judiciary if we dont put judiciary then, if we dont put it when we require it . It to use when we require it . Have the judiciary to you have the judiciary to judge whether the powers exist you have the judiciary to judthevhether the powers exist you have the judiciary to judthe government owers exist you have the judiciary to judthe government ov1doy exist you have the judiciary to judthe government ov1do what it for the government to do what it has proposed. The government clearly had the to do it clearly had the powers to do it because passed by because theyd been passed by parliament, and was purely parliament, and it was purely the was being the judgement that was being questioned. That doesnt seem to me the proper of me to be the proper sphere of the courts. The courts. Its i think its undeniable now that that the ruling of the court needs to be upheld and that International Law is our laws are written by by our parliament. That is part of our democratic process , the way in democratic process, the way in which they write them is then interpreted as the letter of the law by judges. Interpreted as the letter of the law by judges. However, no law by judges. However, no parliament can tie the hands of its successor , and therefore, if its successor, and therefore, if this government decides it is lawful, it is lawful. And that is true under International Law as well , because it cannot tie as well, because it cannot tie future parliaments hands in terms of international treaties. And we could just leave and youre absolutely right on that. That International Law has no standing in law until it is standing in uk law until it is adopted by parliament. We have a dualist system, International Law places potential obligations on ministers, but it doesnt place any legal obligations on the country unless passed by parliament. However surely if you roll it back one more stage and you look at the democratic will of the people, was this ever really voted in . Voted tighten our we voted to tighten our borders. We voted for secure borders. We voted for secure borders , we not vote for borders, but we did not vote for this bill that were seeing now. I dont think we should be governed polls, but governed by opinion polls, but if to question the will if you want to question the will of opinion polls are of the people, opinion polls are overwhelmingly in favour of deaung overwhelmingly in favour of dealing migration dealing with the migration problem, the migration problem, not of the rwanda bill. And one thing is, well, ive let ive, ive let amy, who isnt my sister, have last word. Thank you my panel coming thank you to my panel coming up, ill be discussing why you may to see an increase up, ill be discussing why you miteachers to see an increase up, ill be discussing why you miteachers from see an increase up, ill be discussing why you miteachers from africa, increase in teachers from africa, in britains. Plus plus , britains schools. Plus plus, should trans women be allowed into hampsteads . Women only bathing ponds well, thank you for rejoining us. Weve been talking about rwanda and their lordships and margaret says the rwanda bill has cost us millions so far, and not one immigrant has been sent there. Several there. Though several home secretaries been. And simon secretaries have been. And simon says sir jacob, im secretaries have been. And simon says sirjacob, im a fairly says sir jacob, im a fairly simple sort of chap. Simple simple sort of chap. Simple simon, i suppose, and it seems to there is a simple to me that there is a simple solution lords solution to the lords problem. A short bill repealing blairs disastrous house of lords reform act 1999, and richard says on galloway, jacob, you said we need a powerful and effective opposition , an it might surprise opposition, an it might surprise you to know that in the uk you to know that many in the uk think since february 2020, think that since february 2020, there been no political there has been no political opposition. Seems the vast opposition. It seems the vast majority mps are singing off majority of mps are singing off the hymn sheet. Oh dear. The same hymn sheet. Oh dear. Almost every week it seems as if there is another revelation shining the light on the extent to which mass migration is being used to fill the so called labour gap. And while the labour gap. And while the government has declared its intention to implement the largest ever reduction in net migration, it has been revealed that overseas applications for teacher training have doubled this after a government this year after a government recruitment drive offered £10,000 payments to foreign teachers come to britain at teachers to come to britain at the heart of net migration is the heart of net migration is the issue of economic picks. Many have pointed out that mass migration is not economically beneficial, but today a conservative mp, neil obrien, has revealed that hmrc see his majestys revenue and customs is hiding the figures which would allow people to calculate the fiscal effect of migration. It already does not publish welfare claims broken down by original nationality, but has now stopped publishing data on tax contributions by nationality two this is a strange decision to have made as at the heart of the migration debate is the economic consequence. Well, with me now consequence. Well, with me now is the uks leading demographer, paul morland, as well as my panel paul morland, as well as my panel, nunziata rees mogg and amy nicole turner. Paul, thank you very much. Weve got this you very much. Weve got this migration. Issue, 1. 4 million migration. Issue, 1. 4 million net in the two years to the middle of 2023, 1. 4 million visas then issued in 2023. And yet weve got 5. 5 Million People economically inactive. So to what extent is it demographic and to what extent is it that were not using the resources that weve got properly . Well, back in the 60s, a lot of didnt work. And back of women didnt work. And back in the 80s there were a lot of unemployed there unemployed. Today there are these people not working who we would like to work. And for various reasons arent. And im not for a moment saying that its inevitable nothing can not for a moment saying that itsdone table nothing can not for a moment saying that itsdone about nothing can not for a moment saying that itsdone about it. � |othing can not for a moment saying that itsdone about it. Buting can not for a moment saying that its done about it. But actually, be done about it. But actually, if you look at the share of people, of working age who are actually in the Labour Market by and then that data goes back to the by historic the 19th century by historic standards, its very high. So theres no doubt we could do more to get more people into the labour force. But at same labour force. But at the same time, we to recognise that time, we have to recognise that can go so far. The can only go so far. The fundamental problem of the british Labour Market is not whether we can squeeze an extra 100 or 200,000 out of that group of people, but the fact that weve had 50 years of not having enough children and there simply arent enough people coming into the workforce compared to those leaving it, it was 2 to 1 when i started in the workplace the started in the workplace in the 80s. Barely to 1, and 80s. Now its barely 1 to 1, and this an issue for pensions, this is an issue for pensions, where number of people in where the number of people in work supporting pensioners is declining, pensions declining, making the pensions a bigger burden for the working population. Population. But if you didnt have mass migration, wouldnt be this this be a big incentive to increase productivity, which the uk economy has miserably failed in for the last 30 years. Theres no doubt our productivity has been really disappointing, by disappointing, even by international standards, but its quite striking how across the developed world productivity has been really flat. And thats has been really flat. And thats something that economists wrestle with. But just as i dont think squeezing that 500,000 stock of people and getting another 100 or 200,000 out to work is going to be the solution. Nor do i believe that theres a magic productivity solution. Theres no doubt that solution. Theres no doubt that by Mass Immigration we do on the margin, discuss investment in labour saving investment. Theres no doubt about that. But theres no doubt about that. But that can only go so far. I think a more practical approach is to look at immigration and say, where do we really need immigrants to fill labour gaps and where do we not . Do we need such huge numbers of people coming into the country, for example , to attend . Not very example, to attend . Not very good universities or even not attend not very good universities and then navalny. So really, i think you need to look at immigration as part of the solution to the labour problem, which itself is a result of not having enough children , but to laser focus it children, but to laser focus it on that issue alone. And what are other countries doing to solve this problem . Solve this problem . Because we know that south korea japan are more korea and japan are more advanced down this route of not replacing their population. How are the problem . Are they solving the problem . Well, theyre not really i mean, japan has got very low labour productivity anyway and certainly could do more in that respect. Respect. It is actually having some immigration, although very limited immigration. But the japanese economy has been flatlining since the late 80s. Government debt to gdp in japan, which is the other aspect of the problem that youre talking about, where we not only have the pensions issue, but an 80 something a much higher something has a much higher burden is a much higher burden, is a is a much higher burden, is a is a much higher burden on the Health Service than a 20 something in japan. The Government Debt to gdp ratio is 250. When we were approaching 100, the markets seemed to panic. Now, why japan can get as far away with 250 is another question, but they are going to hit a bump in the road. An interesting question. Its an interesting question. And domestic savings and the japans domestic savings and on all tie into that. But and so on all tie into that. But what about obriens what about neil obriens revelation is revelation that hmrc is withdrawing some of the historic information that it used to dish out is a very odd thing to do, isnt it . Because it makes it much see what the much harder to see what the economic benefit is of migration , and therefore make suitable , and therefore to make suitable policy around it . Well, i dont know why theyve think theyve done that, and i think he follow up he should ask a follow up question why, but i think question as to why, but i think its absolutely shocking that as this gets going, as we this debate gets going, as we have and immigrants have more and more immigrants and totally and therefore its totally legitimate to be debating this, that theyre closing down the information i dont want to suppose that its due to bad faith, but i think he should be probing why that is because we if the if the fundamental argument immigration argument for immigration is economic, really need economic, we really need the economic, we really need the Economic Data in order to make the case and if theyre the case or not. And if theyre covering up, it makes you covering it up, it makes you think is going think something dodgy is going on. It is not. On. Whether it is or not. Always right, it, amy, always right, isnt it, amy, that being that if somethings being covered something covered up, you think something dodgy covered up, you think something doc um, covered up, you think something docum, but also where do you use um, but also where do you use there . It was, it was mainly dnven there . It was, it was mainly driven by economics because i dont necessarily. Dont think it is necessarily. I think driven by think its just driven by theyve run of options theyve run out of options and its practical solution its very practical solution because basically do not because we basically do not maintain our workforce. Its maintain our workforce. Its like a car. We dont look after it. So i was shocked today to it. So i was shocked today to read the number of 16 to read about the number of 16 to 24 year who 24 year olds who are economically inactive, and it wasnt laziness , it was wasnt due to laziness, it was due to poor health, poor mental health, poor physical health, due to poor health, poor mental heafeeling r physical health, due to poor health, poor mental heafeeling like ysical health, due to poor health, poor mental heafeeling like youl health, due to poor health, poor mental heafeeling like you couldth, due to poor health, poor mental heafeeling like you could be not feeling like you could be part the workforce. So part of the workforce. So i think our society we need to step and look after that and step up and look after that and attend look after it attend to that and look after it as was a car. As if it was a car. I think, nancy, i dont but i think, nancy, i dont know using know if you agree that using migration teaching is an easy know if you agree that using migratiand teaching is an easy know if you agree that using migratiand that ching is an easy know if you agree that using migratiand that its|g is an easy know if you agree that using migratiand that its to s an easy know if you agree that using migratiand that its to do n easy know if you agree that using migratiand that its to do with;y option and that its to do with pay, option and that its to do with pay, and its to do with trying to fill gaps quickly. Whereas to fill gaps quickly. Whereas theres an apprentice scheme for people to go into teaching who havent got degrees , and they havent got degrees, and they suddenly say they havent got the money for that. For local people, this is really odd way people, this is a really odd way of things and there of approaching things and there have to scrap have been plans to scrap repayments on loans for people who go into the areas of teaching that have the biggest shortages, mainly the stem science subjects. Science subjects. I the average physics teacher , starts on 35 grand a year. You have done four years of physics degree. You have done your shes qualified training at teacher training. And people arent training. And people arent prepared to do it. What weve got to do is look at that fundamental problem. Yes fine. Fundamental problem. Yes fine. Use uh, teachers from another country in the short tum to plug a gap country in the short tum to plug a gap , but we shouldnt be a gap, but we shouldnt be training them from scratch. We should be training our own people to do these jobs and making them attractive, attractive enough that they will relocate from other areas. Isnt pauls point broadly right . Youve got to work out right . Youve got to work out where the gaps are that you need to fill, and you have to pay people more in other areas. And ive extrapolated that point. Gaps are absolutely the gaps are absolutely everywhere. The everywhere. When you look at the labour list of labour shortages list of unskilled on the unskilled workers on the government website is basically every profession. And i think thats why its ultimately things like Graphic Design ultimately have a shortage issue, shortage of demographic issue, because shortage of demographic issue, becauwe havent got enough about we havent got enough today were talking about teachers. Two years ago were teachers. Two years ago we were talking lorry drivers or talking about lorry drivers or tanker week well tanker drivers. Next week well be talking about doctors and nurses. Throw money at be talking about doctors and nursone throw money at be talking about doctors and nursone sector, throw money at be talking about doctors and nursone sector, but w money at be talking about doctors and nursone sector, but itsnoney at be talking about doctors and nursone sector, but its like y at any one sector, but its like whack is when youve sold whack a mole is when youve sold that particular sector. If youre youve got a lack of youre if youve got a lack of workers relative to the population issues, a problem demographic issues, a problem will pop up elsewhere. Is the problem not that problem not really that our entire welfare state, particularly for pensioners , is particularly for pensioners, is set up essentially as a ponzi scheme where you constantly need younger people feeding in to pay for the outcomes. At the end of ones life. And thatis at the end of ones life. And that is not sustainable. No ponzi scheme has ever been sustainable , and that needs sustainable, and that needs a structural change in itself. Structural change in itself. It would be feasible if we were having 2 to 3 children. We dont have to follow the exemplary , uh, case of some of exemplary, uh, case of some of our leading politicians, but 2 to 3 rather than 1 to 2. And the fact that weve had below replacement since the 70s, it takes a while to feed through. But when it does , you have but when it does, you have labour shortages and all sorts of areas, and 2 to 3 will keep the sort of pyramid that would allow economy function allow the economy to function normally. Normally. We dont have any then. Normally. All dont have any then. Normally. All right. Have any then. Normally. All right. So e any then. Normally. All right. So weve then. Normally. All right. So weve alln. Normally. All right. So weve all got to of children. Gb to have lots of children. Gb news viewers, attention more news viewers, Pay Attention more children, a children, the merrier. Six is a good point. Now the good starting point. Now the government has said in government spokesman has said in relation to neil obrien , listen relation to neil obrien, listen to this. We are reviewing possible data sources to enable us to report more accurately on benefit claimants nationality in the future. Well, when i was in the future. Well, when i was in government , i wanted to get rid government, i wanted to get rid of a lot of these government spokesmen and pr people because they do nothing useful and they put like put out useless statements like that nothing. That that tell you nothing. Anyway, thank to paul and to anyway, thank you to paul and to my coming up is rule my panel coming up is rule britannia about slavery or about freedom . Socialist freedom . Plus socialist hampstead itself in a hampstead has found itself in a bathing pond. Related charles rae now just up eamonn street. Rae now just up eamonn street. On Patrick Christys tonight, 9 to 11 pm. Massive day. Galloway is sworn in and he immediately says the quiet bit out loud. The next election will be about muslims. About muslims. But whos he coming for . That will vitally affect the election of the labour deputy leader. Is galloway conning the muslim vote . Plus are dodgy, unqualified immigrants working in your loved ones care home . We expose the cash for care scandal and the church of england look set to pay church of england look set to pay £1 billion to say sorry for slavery. Why is it now just slavery. Why is it now just a woke lobby group . Dont miss Patrick Christies tonight, 9 to welcome back. We were talking about immigration, and ann says we need to return to teacher training colleges and abandon the ridiculous notion of primary infant School Teachers needing a degree for nursing, too. And obviously might help local people teach and philip says, philip, your point is brilliant. Philip, your point is brilliant. I absolutely love it. Hi sir jacob, if the birth rate is low in uk , why do we need to in the uk, why do we need to import teachers . Who are import more teachers . Who are they teaching . Thats a brilliant question. And the brilliant question. And on the rwanda bill, john says ive worked in rwanda since 2010. Its not only one of the safest countries in the world, its also one of the cleanest of beautiful well, john, beautiful country. Well, john, i trust your view over that of the Un High Commission on refugees who are such hypocrites. Back in who are such hypocrites. Back in january, the Royal Wedding cellist Sheku Kanneh Mason reignited the rule. Britannia debate after suggesting that the song makes some people uncomfortable. These comments, uncomfortable. These comments, of course, echoed the eu loving bbc attempts to remove the lyrics of rule britannia i back lyrics of rule britannia back in 2020, amidst the black lives matter brouhaha. But over the weekend, shadow culture secretary Thangam Debbonaire said that it was up to the bbc whether it wanted to play the song at the last night of the proms or not, and that it wasnt the to tell the governments job to tell cultural how run cultural institutions how to run events. Actually events. I didnt actually disagree that. She then disagree with that. But she then went on to that the song went on to say that the song alienates many people. Well, alienates many people. Well, with me now is the director of the free speech union, toby young , as the free speech union, toby young, as well as my panel, who you remember is nunziata and amy and toby. Thank you very much for coming in. So when britain first, at heavens command arose from the asylum lane, this was the land and the anthem of the land and Guardian Angels this strain Guardian Angels sang this strain. Isnt this something should. Isnt this something we should be and that should be proud of and that should unite country , because unite us as a country, because we were the nation that rooted out yes out slavery . Yes i mean, its often a point overlooked when people criticise rule britannia. Rule britannia. Its a celebration of the royal navy and the role its played in not only preserving our freedom, but we shouldnt forget that the west africa squadron, which was established in 1807 and lasted for almost 60 years, was created to abolish slavery and abolish the slave trade in the mid atlantic and did so with some success. It freed over 150,000 slaves, so the idea that this song celebrating the royal navy is somehow inextricably linked to colonialism and the slave trade is just for the birds. You cant say that. You cant say its for the best. Look at the look at the lyrics. Rule, britannia , rule the waves. Britannia, rule the waves. Britain will never be slaves. I mean , that obviously is going to mean, that obviously is going to make people feel certain things and thats why people are so upset by us leading the world in freedom , in liberty. Freedom, in liberty. Okay. Okay. And the mansfield judgement, which have at around the which you have at around the time written, which says time its written, which says there slavery there is no concept of slavery in english. And this is so important. I know there is this academic explanation of the song lyrics, but people perceive them and differently, and people hear britain will never be slaves and they feel hurt by it. Why why should we be . Youre youre making a leap now. The connotation isnt clear, is youre leaping from saying britains should never be slaves to somehow thinking that implies other people , lesser people other people, lesser people should be slaves. But it doesnt imply that. And we know it doesnt imply that because we did free other people who were enslaved. 200 years of the but we had 200 years of the worst atrocity in history worst human atrocity in history under what we should sing the song. So that people can understand quite how important our history is. Be able to take pride in is. And be able to take pride in the changes we made to the global environment. That did stop. So no other country did this. No other country tried to get rid of slaves. But thats thats thats not the point im making. Point is that the point im making is that people hear and hear people hear it and they hear certain connotations, and it makes which makes them uncomfortable, which is coming is why this debate keeps coming round, round round again, if round, round and round again, if theyve heard something that is wrong, surely effort wrong, then surely the effort should be correct what people should to be correct what people have heard and say. This is about the abolition of freedom of slavery and about the freedom that anybody in enjoys. That anybody in england enjoys. Thats up for thats why im up for tweaking im not tweaking it. Jacob. Im not going councillor. Im going to say councillor. Im going to say councillor. Im going to say tweak it. Ill just say, how would you rewrite it . Rule rule the waves. Rule britannia, rule the waves. All people shall never be slaves. Done but isnt it fine saying britons because we are leading the world . Were setting an example. Told you people but if ive told you people are feeling hurt by theres are feeling hurt by it, theres swathes of people in the population who have said, this song uncomfortable. Population who have said, this song why uncomfortable. Population who have said, this song why dont uncomfortable. Population who have said, this song why dont youmfortable. Population who have said, this song why dont youmfo heara. Well, why dont you just hear it . Example, it . Like, for example, in the national was National Anthem, there was a section. There was a section of National Anthem that said about crushing scots , and crushing rebellious scots, and it was removed on papers. Just tweak it. Lets just tweak it. Lets just tweak it. Knavish tricks. Im knavish tricks. Im knavish tricks. Im knavish tricks. I am not sure i tricks. I am not sure i tricks. I believe when they i believe people when they say they made uncomfortable say they are made uncomfortable by just by it. I think theyre just making that excuse in order to engagein making that excuse in order to engage in fighting a culture war. I mean, the iras of the interview that Thangam Debbonaire gave in which she interview that thangam deblthat re gave in which she interview that thangam deblthat manye in which she interview that thangam deblthat many people ch she interview that thangam deblthat many people are ;he said that many people are alienated by these she alienated by these lyrics. She she accused the conservative party of doing more to fight culture wars than fight for british culture. Be british culture. What could be more of a culture war thing to do than to attack the lyrics of cool she might as Cool Britannia . She might as well shadow secretary of well be the shadow secretary of state culture wars. State for culture wars. Also , um, hailed the bbc she also, um, hailed the bbc as a great provider of joy and jobs. Well, i dont know if shes watched it recently, but its deeply depressing. And jobs for the boys isnt my style. Well, there we go. And at the well, there we go. And at the same time, some foolish headmistress has decided that houses shouldnt be named after drake Walter Raleigh are drake and sir Walter Raleigh are the heroes of our nation. The great heroes of our nation. But away from heroes of but moving away from heroes of britain rule britannia to britain and rule britannia to the mill ponds of hampstead heath, a row has unfolded after gender critical campaigners lost a vote to ban trans women from entering the female only ponds. The meeting reportedly heard claims from women that they didnt feel safe, with one campaigner suggesting that it was of sexual was inevitable. Cases of Sexual Assault would occur. So the question is should trans women, thatis question is should trans women, that is to say , men who now that is to say, men who now identify as women be allowed into hampsteads female only bathing ponds . Well amy, im going to give you the first word on this. And the main say on this, you know what im going to say . Its very say . I do, but its very important because , mean, important because, i mean, you try explain this to me. You try and explain this to me. You made the case to me both privately and publicly. I bought privately and publicly. I bought me a book, which i read and i really want to understand the other side of this. Why is it reasonable that essentially a man who is pretending to be woman. Well, thats unreasonable to start with. Okay, but not somebody whos had an operation . No. Just decides that morning to be a woman should able to use a woman should be able to use a womans do not womans space. I do not understand the floor is understand it. The floor is yours. One is waking up one yours. No one is waking up one day and deciding to be a woman. Its an immutable part of youre not true. No youre not. No youre not. Youre born with. No it is. But thing that frustrates me but the thing that frustrates me about , is the about this story was, is the fact they went to a vote fact that they went to a vote with people who use the with the people who use the swimming and they said, swimming ponds, and they said, of we to trans of course we want to allow trans women. Then it was a minor women. And then it was a minor rmt women even use rmt of women who dont even use the ponds, came in the swimming ponds, who came in to cause disruption. There are to cause disruption. There are no cases of problems at this swimming ponds apart from one um, cis man in the mixed ponds. Who was caught. What is a cis man of interest . You are a cis man. Im a man assigned male at birth. But that was where the problem was. So trans women who want to use the women only ponds want to use the women only ponds want to use the women only ponds want to do so for the same reason that i, as a cis women, want to use it to stay away from cis men who might cause a problem of they problem. So of course they should to the should be allowed to use the female only because they female only ponds because they they same they carry with them the same risks all biological risks that all Us Biological women do as well. But do they really, when they look all senses as, um, when look in all senses as, um, when in a state of undress for bathing, like a woman . I feel like you havent a man rather sorry. Any trans women. Because the way you imagine, i think you imagine , like toby think you imagine, like toby putting on a blonde wig and suddenly being called tabina. Suddenly being called tabina. And thats kind of how it goes. And thats kind of how it goes. But, amy, my question is caricature of what a trans person he wouldnt find him if he did. It may be amy that that that the women who want to the trans women who want to bathe in the womens area and have hampstead pond happily, it may be that , but they are all, may be that, but they are all, as you say , completely sincere. As you say, completely sincere. Theyre not wanting to take advantage of that opportunity to spy advantage of that opportunity to spy on naked women or anything like that. But what if some of them are . How are you going to differentiate . How are you going differentiate . How are you going to how are going to find to how are you going to find out . Going take out . Are you just going to take it are who it on faith that they are who they represent as being . T when you w being . When you go into because when you go into about safety other about the safety of the other women, minute. If women, hang on a minute. If a predatory wants to go into predatory man wants to go into a swimming changing swimming pool, a changing room, a toilet, hes to a womens toilet, hes going to go in. Whether says female go in. Whether it says female only doesnt really stand. Why make it easy . Thrown out . Why make it easy . Thrown out . How that making it easy how is that making it easy for them . Because what . How would actually police this . Would you actually police this . So you get to swimming so when you get to the swimming ponds means, you appear ponds, by all means, you appear like you dont. Do you like a woman. You dont. Do you kind have a genital flash . Kind of have a genital flash . Because a trans womans because on a trans womans passport, legally passport, it would say legally female f so how are you going to practically , in a practical practically, in a practical sense, youve been uncharacteristically quiet. I want to take amy up on something she said. You dont. Something she said. You dont. No one wakes up one morning and decides want female. No one wakes up one morning and dactually want female. No one wakes up one morning and dactually have ant female. No one wakes up one morning and dactually have an female. No one wakes up one morning and dactually have an an female. No one wakes up one morning and dactually have an an old,emale. No one wakes up one morning and dactually have an an old, latea. I actually have an an old, late friend who really did do that. And there are people and i think its very discriminatory to say that they dont exist, that he felt more feminine. Some days he felt more feminine. Some days he felt more feminine. Some days he felt more masculine. Some days im the one he always said im the one thing he always said was never, ever going to be was i am never, ever going to be a woman when i am feeling different as to who i am in me. But but it doesnt make me the same as someone who was born that way. And i think thats something we really have to accept that there are very major differences between the genders, not just in our physicality, but in our mentality, but also by not creating safe spaces that are purely for women who are im afraid to say, genuinely and statistically the weaker sex we are opening risk unnecessary only to women. Well, thank you. Thank you very much to toby to and my panel to nunziata, who remains a sister, and to amy, whos part of sisterhood. Whos part of the sisterhood. Thats next is thats all from me. Up next is Patrick Christies. Patrick, whats this evening . Yeah, great show. Jacob. Well, look, theres a heck of a lot on tonight were going to be talking um qualified lot on tonight were going to be talking carers um qualified lot on tonight were going to be talking carers u ourualified lot on tonight were going to be talking carers u our care ed lot on tonight were going to be talking carers u our care home foreign carers in our care home secretary. Galloway has secretary. George galloway has said the next election is going to muslim election. What to be a muslim election. What does that mean and does all of that really mean and well apologise well be . Should he apologise over his rwanda nazi comments . Over his rwanda nazi comments . Oh my goodness. Well as always, thats going to be so exciting. Will be back exciting. I will be back tomorrow 8 00. Im jacob tomorrow at 8 00. Im jacob rees mogg. Has been state rees mogg. This has been state of and although there of the nation and although there was little precipitation in was a little precipitation in somerset over the weekend, im assured normal. Assured that itll be normal. Service resumed tomorrow with glorious, sunny. Weather. A brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on. Gb solar sponsors of weather on. Gb news evening. Welcome along to your latest weather update from the met office for gb news. But a fog forming overnight wet weather is pushing its way northwards. And pushing its way northwards. And then tomorrow, well, a few showers, but for many its going to a fine day. Far from fine to be a fine day. Far from fine out there this evening though, low been moving in, low pressure has been moving in, bringing wet weather across bringing some wet weather across the , and these weather the southwest, and these weather fronts track north fronts continue to track north overnight. To heavy for overnight. Nothing to heavy for most, but a damp, dank kind of night as it turns quite misty and murky. A few fog patches and murky. A few fog patches around touch of frost possible through parts of wales and southwest england. Most towns and cities holding a couple of degrees above freezing, but nevertheless a chilly start out, certainly across the midlands and it will be quite murky here. Some fog patches for central and Eastern England. Rain eastern parts of england. Rain and drizzle over Eastern England and drizzle over Eastern England and lingering northeast and lingering in northeast scotland. A bit of wet start scotland. A bit of a wet start for of Northern Ireland for parts of Northern Ireland too. Rain will spread into too. That rain will spread into western scotland, for a good western scotland, but for a good chunk the itll be chunk of the country itll be a dry and a bright day. Weve dry and a bright day. Once weve lost morning mist and fog. Lost the morning mist and fog. But some heavy showers across the temperatures the south east. Temperatures here celsius for here could reach 12 celsius for most 10 or 11 degrees. The wind is fairly light though, so probably feeling a touch warmer than a touch of frost than today. A touch of frost returns, on tuesday night returns, though on tuesday night into wednesday morning and wednesday, looking fairly grey again in eastern areas with a few light showers possible and many Western Areas dry and bright with some decent spells of sunshine. Temperatures again of sunshine. Temperatures again where its grey, 8 or 9 with a bit of sunshine, 11 or 12 looks like things are heating up. Boxt boilers as sponsors of weather on