With Russias Vladimir Putin and libyas muammar gaddafi. A decade after leaving washington, what does Condoleezza Rice say now . Firing line with margat hoover is made possible by. Additional funding is provided by. Corporate funding is provided by. Elcome to firing line, secretary condoleezza ri. Thank you very much. Great to be with you. Its a real honor. You had served in two White House NationalSecurity Councils for both bush administrations. Thats right, yes. At the Hoover Institution atow stanford university, where you had also served as provost. And the Hoover Institution is an organization that im also now, you have written a new book. It is cowritten with philip zelikow, and it is called to build a better world choices to end the cold war and create a glommonwealth. Why is now the moment to write about the end of the cold war . We wanted to do a couple of things in this book. First ofll, it will have been 30 years next yearince the unification of germany. And the way that the cold war ended is a reminder of two very forward. T principles, going the first is, diplomacy matters. The send point and given some of the news of this lastwe or so, sometimes you have to stay the course in order to achieve what you want. The United States waited 45 years, from 1945 and the end of world war ii, unl 1990, when germany could be unified completely and totly on western terms, within nato. We had to wait. And when i look at all of the calls now for we have to geto out, we haveave, i think to myself, sometimes it takese time, and ability that america can bring, if we areti t. Also, what youre referring to, i think, there is, the news this week that President Trump had plans to sit down with the taliban in a peace negotiationd. At camp da right. Which he then called off after the taliban took creditid for a subomb that killed tha an american soldier in kabul. Right. Theres sever questions that come from this news. One, what is your view about bringing thealiban to camp david . Just for starters. Right. The heralded place where anpeace negotiations and, y, war planning happened. In the wake of 11, you were in camp david, helping to plan the how did it strike you that the taliban would be invited to camp david . Well, it wouldnt hen my chosen venue. Let me put it that way. I dont think thes anything wrong, frankly, with doing the negotiations at camp david because, afterll, we had Yasser Arafat at camp david at the time that the plo was really a terrist organization. After significant concessions thats right. D. And the timing would have been kind of bad. The week of 9 11 is not the me to have the taliban at camp david. But the decision to end the negotiations, the president s right about that because there were some really bad signs abo where these negotiations were going. What were the bad signs . Yo well, first of all, whe have the taliban unwilling to even acknowledge the legitimately democratically has been our partn morent that than a decade and a half, thats a bad si. Mmhmm. When they say that they were some kind of puppet government, thats a bad sign. When they reallyerent able to give any assurances that they were going to keep their territory safe of terrorism, thats a bad sign. And so, it seems to mehat the taliban was beginning to believe we wanted an agreement more thae they did. Right. And all of the talk, not just in this administration but going back to the obama administration, that we have to get out, we have to end the war, i think had given the taliban ac false sense ofit then id like to get your sense of why an 18years war in afghanistan is so politically toxic on both sides. And id like to show you a clip, from the campaign trail, of both esident ump and the Democratic Candidates urging exactly what yre not advising get out now. Lets take a look. Great nations do nowant to fight endless wars. To continue to keepops and more troops forever and evep and ever in tht of the world is not it is not working. I want to bring our troops home from afghanistan. It shouldve happened long ago. Will you withdraw all u. S. U servicemembers by the end of your first year in office . E will withdraw. All right, secretary rice, we have troops in germany a japan 74 years after the end of that war. We he had troops inwe south korea for 66 years, since why, in your view, is it so politically untenable that we still have troops in afghanistan 18 years after we were attacd on 9 11 . Well, thats a very goodha otestion, because we would have gotten a unified germany on our own terms without th american presence at a time when euro. H stalin was astride and we waited 45 years to unify germany, and our forces arel stere. You mentioned korea. Were still keeping peace on the korean peninsulaand that has prevented war. And if we are premature in our exit from afghanistan, are we going to forget the lessons ofss the week that were in now, that 9 11 came out of afghanistan . And i worry that, for instance, we hear from intelligence that the islamic that isis is sort of regrouping around this area. So, i understand. I understand that people are red. I understand that people say, when is this gonna end . But the president should ask, and i think can be done, what is a minimum presence that we can keethat largely would be a trainandequip presence, ngat would largely be advi the afghans on how to deal with the taliban, that would largely be a counterterrorism and intelligence presence so that teonorism doesnt arise agai that soil . I heard the word endless war. In effect, youre talking about a different kind of mission for the American Forces than the one that we had in october of 2001. It has changed over the course of 18 years. Its changed over the course of 18 years. These are now stabilization operations to help the afghan army and government maketa afghana safe place. So, it brings me to the question of nationbuilding, right . cause this is not something that conservatives had been President Trump ha quite clear that hes against nationbuilding. He doesnt want to be nationb and you wrote in Foreign Affairs in 2008 that you had previously been against it, but its cle that now we will be involved in nationbuilding for years to come, is what you said inhat essay. I believe that we have to think about it as not just building their nation but securing ours. Wh you have ungoverned territory, when you have places the terrorists can train and equip, and arms dealers can run wild, that is going to be bad for our security. And so, when we talk aboutin nationbui i dont want to fight them on our territory the way at we did on september 11th, when, from afghanistan, they came here and to down the twin towers an blew a hole in the pentan. I dont want to do that again. W, do think that the American People have kind of two d pulses going on simultaneously, eyre a little bit conflicting. Were tired of the burdens of leadership. Were tired of always having to solve everybody elses problems. But we dont want to see, as ,esident trump himself sa syrian children choking on nerve gas. Ewe dont want to see peo beheaded on television by isis. Omwe dont want to see carto in afghanistan. We arent going to want to see women executed again in soccer stadiums by thtaliban or kept from going to school when theyre rls. Were not gonna want tsee that again. And so, in a sense, that is the price of americas continued engagement. Is no longer the same war. Sense, he you write in the book that you believe thatorld may be drifting towards another great systemic crisis. Right. What systemic crisis do you fear . Well, the crisis many quarters, a rejection of the very International Order thaton george h. W. Bush and helmut kohl ftand others helped create the cold war. And remember that this was the extension of ideas from 1945 that we ought to have fr markets, an open International Economy that was not bozerosumgain, where eve could grow. We believed in free peoples. And now you see what weve called the four horsemen of the apocalypse populism, ill call inativism, not nationalism, because i think, in the american context, nationalism is not a bad thing. Its an important diinction. But nativism means we against them. Were seeing the return of protectionism. Were seeing the return of isolationism. We dont want to be ed in their problems. This didnt serve us well thear last timnd. It wont serve us well again. Maaret, one of the things that really worries me is that america is not a confident country again these we were confident in 1945 we were confident in 1991 that we could sustain an order of free markets and free peoples. And i do think that part of th loss of that confidence is that we worry about the fact that the benefits of globalizion have not been equally shared in our society. But it doesnt mean th we turn away from the order that has served us so well. It means that we fix the cracks that are there. So, part of the cracks are populism, as you identify. You write in your book that the rise of farright populistce ryrties in plike hun and poland really began in 1989. Yes. And i wonder if you see a direct flow line between the emergence of these rightwing, populist movements in europe and the populism that has erged inst n europe and the United States. I do. And i think that part of the flow is that, those who wanted to sustain the global order didnt see the cracks coming ini. So lets just talk about the United States. Our processes of governing are met to be slow. Thats how the Founding Fathers created them. Thats why they created three anches of government and two houses of congress, and separation of powers and federalism with states that have rights. And so, when you try to make policy by instant cialmedia gratification y tweet . By tweet. If i could have a rule, it would be that nobody in government can tweet not just the president but also in the congress. It becausakes time to build consensus. It takes time to listen to youra coes. Just think, maaret, if the first thing that came into your mind was what you said, which is media encourages you to be. It wouldnt be there would be no time to actually hear the other side, and i think that what and i am a sialmedia user. I love it. But i think that what its done is, it has shortened timeframe in which we try to make policy. And with institutionthat, by their nature, move slowly, thats a problem. He well, i mean, this is critique of populism that you write, is that populism actualle ines the sustainability of our institutions. M well, popul not, in and of itself, antidemocratic. But it is antiinitutional. Its antiinstitutional. It seeks to go around the stitutions, directly to the people. And i marvel every day at the wisdom of the Founding Fathers and the american constitution. I just marvel at it every day. Th becaus understood the need between the desirehetermediation people and the policies th thats w they created representative government. And when you constantlgo around those institutions, you do that at your own peril. So, one of the institutionsam thatout of the International World order and the postcold war order and the precold war order was nato. Yes. That the Nato Alliance now finds itself illadapted for the ryproblems of the 21st cen you also say that. Sw, some might read that that youre suggesting that nato is obsolete. Im suggesting, are suggesting, philip and i, that maybe renovation is if you have a wonderful historic building, you dont want to tear it down. So, how would you renovate nato . I think one thing thats be great for nato is thusion of the east europeans, because theyve given it new energy. Y they actuamember what it means not to be free, and so theyve given new meaning to the mission. I know that nato is trying hard to build cybersecurity capacity. I think nato has tried to reform onssues of terrorism. Mmhmm. And i think some of the impacts there have beequite good since 9 11. T looking at these new missions and saying, how are we gonna take on these new missions . Thats what nato has got to spend more time doing. And by the way, President Trumpy is right re going to do the old missions, cause the youre going to doewoire, and missions, everybodys gonna have to pay their fair share. Youra student of soviet russia, and you also, in your times National Security adviser to president bush, witnessed a real transformion in the stature and the posture that vladir putin took on as he reasserted himself. Theres concern about whether nato will be Strong Enough to sustain a test to nato by Vladimir Putin or russia. Do you worry about that . Well, my concern is not about a direct challenge. Weve always depended on a force presence to remindhe soviet or russian president , dont go there, because you might kill an american, and that will causen american president to attack. Thats why we had a tripwire for all of those years. So, on a direct challenge,m not as worried. What im worried about is that you would fi the russians using these hybrid attacks, where its a little bit cyber, its a little clear who the people are, the kinds of things that theyve done in ukraine. Rr and i more about something along those lines. T brings me to another question. And, as you knowthis program was first hosted by helliam f. Buckley jr. , an hosted it from 1966 to 1999. D in 1987, there was a republican president ial primary s,in which all the candida republican candidates, came topu talk to bill buckley, and your former boss, george h. W. Bus was on that stage talking about the inf treaty. Yes. The intermedie range Nuclear Forces treaty. Lets take a look at that. An entire generation of nucleaweapons, and thats good for my grandchildren and the rest of the world. [ applause ] he was good. He was good. That w a great moment. But where are we now . Because in ju in august of this last year, President Trump actually withdrew from the inf treaty. Has the inf treaty ceased to serve the purposes of this new global order . I think t inf treaty served brilliantly for 25 years. Es and ent george h. W. Bush was right we got rid of a clasof nuclear weapons. But it is a different world than it was in 1987. To get out of that treaty for ag long time, margaret. The Russian Defence minister called and said, you know, we ought to get outf that inf treaty, because thonly this is probably around 2003 or 04. Because the only countries that it is constraining are the United States and russia. Doesnt constrain china,t doesnt constrain india. And i said, you know, we got to get out of this inf treaty. Ca so, we didnt e of allied concerns, principally, so they just started undermining it and cheating. I think the time had probably come, and the russians forced our hand, and i completely support what the president did in getting out of the treaty. [ cheers and applaus] you write in your book thatea 1989 was ther thate transformed continent. And one of the tngs you say about your first president ial boss, george h. W. Bush, whom you called the father of german reunification, is that his response in that moment impressed you,hat it wouldnt have occurred to him to be a triumphal. Right. What did you learn from him in thamoment . I learned from him sometimes its better to beke loabout a great event. When those of us who told him he needed to go to berlinorfo kennedy antruman and for reagan, and he said, what would dance on the wall . He knew it was a german mome. He was able to step ba, not take cret at that moment. En 45 years of american resolve that had allowed that unification to take place, but he didnt need to say that at that moment. I learned so much from george h. W. Bush about grace. I learned so much from him about diplomatic ski. Ani learned a lot about building relationships. And so, he was a mastehose things and one of the reasons that we were able to seehe building of that better world at i mean, i cant help but notice how you describe president george h. W and contrast it with some of the rhetoric we see on the International Stage now. Lets take a look at just a sampling. Im getting a lot of credit for what we doing foreign. But everybody gives me credit for decimating isis. We just took over 100 liphate. That means the area of land. We did that in a much shorter period of time than it was suppos to be. I gave the Prime Minister my ideas on how to negotiate it. And i think you wouldve been successful. She didnt listen to that. And nobody has been tougher with yeah. Han donald trump. What do you make of the contrast . Well, its a different time. You know, my grandmother used to saat probably as yours did, i is a word they use fairly rarely. Tif you can, its better k about what they did or what we did. About four months into the trump administration, you said you saw a president who is beginning to feel the weight of the office and that you cant sit behind the roosevelt desk and not member the universal declaration of human rights, you cant look at washington or lincoln and not feel the weight of history, and lets just see how it evolves, referring to the trump administration. How do you feel its evolved . The commitment to human rightsnd to democracy to the principle that nobody should live in tyranny. It not as evident, as stro as i would like to see it. We see flashes oit, for instance, in venezuela, where the administration has stood by the opposition and said that maduro is an illegitimate president of venezuela, and theyre absolutely right. Theres an impul in the american presidey that i think is irresistible to try and do i just hope that it comes out more and more, because withoutot it, there is nr country in the world that has been willing toepeak for the voiceless l the United States of america. And they care. People care that somebody is willing to speak for them, whether theyre iranian dissidents or the people in the streets of hong kong. It w a little unnerving, actually, to see them with american flags, because you know theres not much we can do. Should we have spoken more . I always believe that youre best off, even if you cant do something, to stand for theo right things, and ill give you an example. By saying them . Sa by sending a m . To send a message. Has to be a meage thats caful. You cant say, we wilrate you, cause we cant. But i will give you an example,g n from the period at we studied in to build a better world. The soviet union forcibly corporated the Baltic States into the soviet union after thet war, world war ii. We couldnt do anything aboutin it. But for decades, we refused to recognize the forceful t incorporation Baltic States in the soviet union. As a matter of ft, margaret, anybody who sat at the nsc desk had a stamp, and whenever you mentioned latvia, lithuania, or estonia, you stamped it the United States of america does not recognize the forcible corporation of the Baltic States into the soviet union. And you know what . 45 years later, when the Baltic States were free, they re among our best allies estonia, latvia, and sthuania because they remembered that od for the right things. And so, yes, you have to do it carefully, you cantthe impression to the people of hong kong at we are gonna come to the rescue. We cant but need to stand for the right things. And that words matter. Words matter. Words matt and sometimes, words can matter ev. To the chinese governme watching and that they need to find a way forward that doesnt include trying to crush that protest, thats an Important Message for everybody who wants to say to china, if you want tm be ar of the international community, dont do that. You were not always a republican. Which s fun for me to beo reminded of. Now there are three challengers to President Trump in his primary. Im here to tell you now that i am goiget in. Youre going to run for president against donald trump in the republican race. I am, i am. The most recent person to announce that he would challenge President Trump isre esentative mark sanford, who is not a nevertrumper and simply wants to elevate certain issues in the republican primary discussion. An has said its with humility hed also like to have a conversation about the tone and tenor of o politics. Do you think that would be welcomed . It is certain time to have a conversation about the tone and tenor of our politics. I dont know if doing it for a primary is the right way to doim it. American politics is cng to me, frankly. Im better at international politics. Wi but say this. Were tearing ourselves apart each other namt stop calling were tearing ourselves apart because we cant stop weaponizing our idtities against one another. Were tearing ouelves apart because were ceasing to remember that we actually have a uniting narrative, which is that it doesnt matter where you came from, it matters where youre going. You can come from normal circumstances, you can do great things. Now, predent trump lets give him credit he really recognized that there were people for whom that promise was no longer really alive. And they were willing to vote for somebody whose first job in gornment was gonna be president of the United States. That should tell us something. And so, m all for traditional republican principles, but ipu also understand that weve got work to do to make sure that those principles are reflected in better lives for those americans who feel that eyve been left out. And so, while were talking about the reagan revolution, which actually we won, we need to think about what the modern version of that revolution is going to look like. And th time aroundad better include some understanding of how were gonna educate our people better, how were gonna get a match between our jobs and our skills, how were gonna bring people from the most desperate circumstances of opioid addiction, how were gonna deal with the violence in our country that were seeing with mass shootings. Weve got to have answers to those issues, too. Itant just be about the grand principles. Weve got to move on to the modernization of thoseci pres in ways thats gonna work for people. For your leadership and foroi giving to those ideas and continuing to be to carry that torch, we thank you. Thank you for coming to firing line, Condoleezza Rice. Thank you. Pleasure. Firing line with Margaret Hoover is made possible by. Additional funding is provided by. Corporate funding is provided by. Youre watching pbs. Hello, everyone and welcome to amanpour co. Heres whats coming up. 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