[smith] tommy orange, welcome. Orange] thank you for having me. [smith] thank you very much for being here. So, i love the book. I wanna talk all about tt book and talk all abu, but i wanna talk about the title of the book first. So i didnt actually get the reference until after that this is Gertrude Stein. [orange] mmhmm. [smith] right . Like you, an oaklander. Is that the right way to say it . Oaklandit [orange] oaklander. [smith] oaklander. [orange] yeah. [sth] so Gertrude Stein mously said of oakland, theres no there there. And this is esponse, this is your rebuttal of Gertrude Stein. [orange] and its also, i wouldnt put so much of the weight on Gertrude Stein as more on people who have sort of misused that quote. Because she was just talking about her childhood home. [smiry specific. [orange] and it was developed over. So in her everybodys autobiography, somebody asks her, why dont you write about oakland . There is no there there. Shes just talking about r experience. And so people have used it to say oakland has no character. And that is more a reflection on what people think of oakland or and trying to make oaknto than what her thoughts were. [smith] it may be as much a rebuttal of those people than of her. [orange] [smith] right. And oakland, as well come to in a second, is a character in this book. This book struck me, so i thought two things about this book. Its a portrait of america that we dont see and its a portrait of americanwe dont see. There is not, as far as it goes, a lot of native American Literature or native american storytelling about the native American Community in this country. In novel form. Right . [orange] yeah, and, you know, specically, where native people are living in cities. [sthth] because lets sa, in fact, this follows a dozen characters, in this book, and it really is about the lives of native americans in an urban environment, sort of detached from what you would think of as the traditional environment in whicholhese stories would be [orange] yeah. So, in the 1950s and 60s, there was relocation. So the u. S. Government was encouraging people to move fromcieservations to major es, and this happened. And people came for of diff. But when they came, even though it was sort of, idea was that people would assimilate and essentially disappear in cities, and the culture and language would be sort of the last step of erasure, but Indian Centers started up all over in every major city and all these dit tribes from all over the country would come together and form communi. And so there that have this background of, you know, having grandmothers that were born and raised in the city or having mothers at did. [smith] Indian Culture, though, despite this, has persisted. Right . Indian culture is still a thing. [orange] yeah. [smitih] right . And in fact theres a ve key, i think it was a key scene in this book, wheres a powwow at the oakland coliseum. I mean, what i lovabout it is is that Indian Culture persists regardless of circumstance, regardless of setting, regardless of, you know, is it old times, contemporary times, there is still something very vibrant about this culture that you write about. And in your own life it continues to be a significant defispect. [orange] yeah, i mean it means a lot different things. Something that weve suffered from is the idea that theres one way to be indian, and often that means its historical or its tied to some specific tradition. And it just means, theres over 575 tribes, all with distinct languages and histories and ways of being indian. So this was one, this was just one aspect of native cultand americane that ive never seen in books or in media. So i very much wanted to write into that lack. [smith] you are the child of a native father and a white mother. You selfdescribe or selfidentify, though, as native american. Thats your own, and i mean that from the perspective of your art. You are a native that american novelist. Mean that youre not a novelist who happens to be native american. You vira that identity as ce to your art and to your place as an artist. [orange] wou know, i was a native person before i was an arst. I grew up with my dad, very much knowing that im native. [smith] and youd go back to his, go back to oklahoma with him, right . And it was just part of what i was. I knew i was sort of, you know, i was the two things. Im biracial. But ths really nothing to speak of. [smith] well, the fact is you point out in the book, youre as indian ariobama is africanan. [orange] but there is no cultural side on the whi side and there is on the native side. You know, my mom fell for my dad in a teepee in northern new mexico in the 70s. She was sort of a wandering hippie from oakland and he was practicing ceremony in northern new mexico. So my identity has never been anything other than i know im native, knew that and were proud of it. So i automatically a native autr because that, you know, you can only be an author without any qualifying thing before iif youre white. Re just an author. Otherwise you put the thing before. [smith] its a little ridiculous t has to be qualified. An author is an author is an author. Although clearly, your own experience and your own identity is on every page in every paragraph of this book. Youve chosen to tell your story, this story, osed to some other story. [orange] yeah. [smith] i mean its the oldest thing in the world, tell your story, right . [orange] and i think its a privilege of, specifically, white male authors to just tell any story, and if the just Start Talking about a protagonist and they have that guy go rob a bank and whatever, he survives most of the mountains and never brings up anndhing about his backgr he has the privilege of not having to write anythingn. And the audience, because weve only been reading white male authors for so long, will automatically assume hes white and male. [smith] right. [orange] but if youre writing from your experience and, you know, i would never write a default person that didnt include my personal details. So its, you sort of have to write against something thats been the default. You have to acvely resist, otherwise youre sort of erased on the page. [smith] well, you become part of the problemt that point. But you know, in the case of white male authors, say, who clearly have dominated the landscape of letters for a long time, there are plenty of people who they read owing up in whom they see themselves, now or one day. But if youre a native autho there have not been a lot of native authors for you to look to as mentors, role models, or to get a sense of how to do this. So who did you read growing up . What shaped and formed your thinking about your own art . [orange] i didnt read growing up. I wasnt a good t. I was into playing sports. I sort of ac and i became a musician when i was 18 and then i went to school for sound engineering, and i learned a lot of analog cording. Thisdias right before the tal age took over. [smith] good career choice. Range] yeah. [smith] right. [orange] pretty much right after i graduated, my skills were obsolete, and ie and thats when i fell in love with reading, and then with writing after that. And what i was ing then was not based on a teachers curriculum or anybody telling me what toead. I ended up reading a lot in translation and just a lot of obscure stuff, inand just followed my owincts. And so [smith] your voice as an artist came from the experience that you had discovering other peoples voices in these books. [orange] yeah, exactly. I didnt end up reading a lot of native writers until i got into my mfa program at the institute of American Indian art. [smith] is there something about native writers that is particular, in your mind . Would yoivor would we, as nonnreaders, say, be able to see in native writing something that would call it out . [orange] no more than black writing would include black experience or chinese writing would include chinese experien. Its only categorized a certain way because its different than what the domint [smith] characters, story, setting. [orange] yeah. Its greatriting. The settings might be different and the characters lives might be different what literature can do and what novels can do that i love is that, no matter who the reader is, you ien live through an expe and come to understand a story and understand a people better, no matter what people that might be. [smith] and if you create amazing characters, there are a lot of characters in this book, like i said about a dozen we follow, im thrtial to orville redf, but if you encounter various characters, you can find a of yourself in them regardless of who these characters are. And i think thats one of the great things about, these are memorable characters all in this book. Is iouthe book that you seto write . I wondered about that. I wondered, because this book is also not really told in a traditional a to z linear narrative. It kinda jumps around and theres different ways in which the story is presented. It makes it actually a lot more interesting. Is this what you intended . [orange] i you know, there were some craft choices that i knew before i knew what story i was gonna tell. I knew i wanted a prologue, cause i like the way that functions in a novel. You can kind of experiment with a prologue and do things however you want before you stary the chapters and the s i knew that i wanted a whole bunch of povs of a whole bunch of different characters and have, figuring out while you read how their lives intersect and how that also, you know, how it relates to the arc of the whole story. Thes [smith] but i love this crafty, processy stuff. I love this. Because it really, these are very important decisions that ultimatelcrucial to the success of the book. [orange] yeah, so, the id, the idea came to me in a single moment for what the actual book would be. I had just found out i was gonna be a father and i was dro ing with my wife downa. [smith] well, i know you have a son named felix whos seven now . [orange] correct. [smith] so were timing this perfectly. So its like, eight years ago . T [orange] yeah, hes abthe sam. cause i thought of the idea before ied writing into it. And i didnt write into it for a year cause i was busy becoming a father for the first te. [smith] preparing. Yeah, yeah yeah. [orange] but the idea just dropped into my head to have all these lives converge at a powwow at the oakland coliseum. Just, that was the basic premise, and i, you know, i spent the next six years after that writing into it. Or, you know, i didnt write for that first year, but after a at, after waiting foar, actually, you know, i really started waking up at five in the morning and id write after he went to sleep and i was working full time, so, i really went hard at it at first. I cant really explain exactly how i made it all work, i really went hard but over six years, you know, you just keep going at the same thing anyou figure it out. [smith] yeah. So weve talked about oakland a couple times, mentioned that oakland is the setting of this book, th theres a pivotal scene the, but really, oakland is all over this, oakland is a why is oakland such an interesting place for you . I s trying to think, as was reing this book, about other works of art that feature oakland. And i thought Fruitvale Station. Right . Ilm from a couple years ago. And then i kinda drew a blank aftethat. Am i not remembering something . [orange] well, theres two that you should watch where resents oakland, theyre terrific films. Its blindspotting and sorry to both you. They just came out this year. [smith] oh, sorry to bother you oh, thats right to bother you. I did see sorry to bother you, i did not see blindspotting. You know, i didnt think about sorry to bother you as an oakland film where you, you know, you cant help but understand that Fruitvale Station is an oakland film. So oakland as a character, talk about that. [orange] for me, its home, and you know, i love it because its where i grew up and its whaow. You know, i cant, almost cant walk anywhere in oakland or drive around anywhere without it connecting to some memory, and thats kind of what home is is, you where you spend the most time and where your memories are. But i was writing into theack, again, you know, i didnt see any stories about natives in cities and i didnt see very many stories or novels specifically about oakland. So i wanted to represent something that i thought was a very interesting, complex and beautiful place. [smith] yep. Is the something specific about the native community in oakland that people should take away from this book or that you want peopl to understand better as a result of what youve done here . Is the community in oakland any different hean it might be in anbig city . Is the Oakland Community something specific . [oranghink people from oakland know the oakland experience and can recognize it. I dont know if i, you know, its in the book. But i think there are prably more commonalities between native People Living in cities in other major cities than there are differences. You know, native peoplen general have more commonalities than difrences, and thats true of urban native people. [sreth] i think whats ining is the stereotype, if someone said to you, im gonna read a book by a native american novelist thats going to be about the native experience, i think you would imagine that it would be more on the land than in a big city. So theres something kinda counter to conventional wisdom or to the stereotype of it about that. [orange] uh huh. [smith] talk a little bit about that. You say inook, being indian is not necessarily being of the land. I kept thinking, at every page here, i kept thinking, this is as much a story about detachment from the land or at least from the stereotype as it isbout anything. [orange] yeah, so, you know, theres this sort of tension between reservation natives and urban natives. [smith] yeah. [orange] and its this idea that you dont have a land base. I mean, if you grow up in a community where you feel like you have a land base and you see other people of your tribe, and maybe theres some level of relationship to the language, you know, thats an easiplace t. D a lot of urban native spac are intertribal. So you got somebody thats like three different tribes, and so you cant necessarily pick one and say that one is more important. But the land thats often being referred to is reservation land that people were moved to. Always. But the idea that somebody that grew up in the city has no basis for identity because they dont have a connection to some mythical land thats been brought up for too long, [smith] thats a conruct. You know, 70 percent of native people have been living in cities for over a decade. [smith] right. But one difference we were visiting about this earlier, one differenceat, on the reservation, theres a presumed sovereignty or kind of an insularity or an intimacy to the community, and out in the city, that, both for good and for bad, is not there. [orange] mmhmm. [smith] right . [orange] yeah. Yeah, i mean, there isnt, theres not technically, you know, urban people in cities are not a people. But its an expe that im writing about, and often theres, like i said, theres people from different tribes, theres a lot of intermarriage between tribes or between white people and native people. Like you were saying earlier, i drove back to oklahoma growing up and saw my relatives there and understood that theres a people that i come from and thats where they are now. So all this id stuff is very messy, you know, by 2042, whites are the minorities. re talking about a big mix of different mixes of people. And i think we have to find better ways to talk about it, and not monolithic ways and not singular w talking about what people are. [smith] so for someone like felix, your son, he wants to understand native culture. Technology is at his disposal. I mean, you actually have a scene in which orville redfeather, in this book, 14 years old, kind of googles Indian Culture, or looks on, i dont know if its youtube, but basically goes online to learn about Indian Culture. I mean that really, i thought, was such an interesting little statement on, you know, fw far weve moved awm the experience of understanding who you are and what you a, that you now have to Access Technology to take you back. Ng so that big difference now, is that the preservation or the persistence of Indian Culture, in some ways, relies on people being able to get access to aspy ts of it that they t experience on a day to day basis, which invariably, [orange] yeah, and i think culture is a living concept and it shouldnt, we shouldnt need to reach back. I meuf, sure, you bring along, but native people have been adapting for and culture changes, its not a static thing. [smith] yeah. So how do you help your son understand who he is and u are and what Indian Culture is, in your own life . [orange] i mea the same way any other race would, you know, you have conversations. Theres not. This question comes up andt, you know, itsifferent than, like he knows who his family is and he knows, we tell him stories and we ht e conversations abat it means. Sometimes the question is bothersome because it feels like it means he needs to be doing something thats traditional thats the very thing im sort of speaking agast. [smith] exactly. [o so its complicated. Theres not an easy answer. And hes a mix of different things. So its a hard question to answer because ther simple answer like im taking him to powwow dance lessons. [smith] but yourience being biracial growing up, and in fact ive heard you say that sometimes you were, you know, called out mistakenly for being chinese when you were growing up. I mean, the fact is that everyb a mix of everything, or a lot of people are a mix of everything these days, and so its probably not that unusual that you have to sort of sort through all that and you just move on with your life. [orange] well, like i said, its a subject that we nein to get better at talkg about, because its complicated and theres so many facets to it. And were moving further into that, were not moving away from that. [smith] were moving toward it. Ngrange] yeah, were mooward it. [smith] you teach at the school in santa fe where you got your mfa. Youre not there all the time, but youre, like, doing a week a month . [orange] uh hmmm. [smith] is that right . What are you doing to bring along the next generation of tommy oranges, en looking for the next orling . What do you see in these students an do you tell them or encourage them to do based on your own experience . [orange] i think onemff the benefits of thprogram, i mean a lot of its just basic craft stuff, its just teaching good writing. One of the benefits of having gone through the book experience is that i sort of understand and have access to, sort of like a gatekeeper, like you have access to the publishing world in ways and you can teach them what that whole process is like. But most of the work is just and doing the hard work that it takes to make a good book. [smith] i always think that its hard and to teach somebody howhat it to be a good writer. Book. You can talk to them about aspects of craft, but at the end of y, the story has to come from them and the desire to do it has to come from them and the voice has to come from them. [orange] i think so, but i think sometimes riting gets overly mystified. I think, like, a good musician, thats an artform too, they learn to practice and practice and practice and practice until they can really play. So i think, that doesnt always transfer to teaching good writing. Its the same work ethic that you need to take to any art fo to make good art. [smith] one thing that occurs to me the success of this book, the reviews that this book has received, you were on the long list, as they call it, for the National Book award, the 10 that were the finalists for this award, success is amazing when it comes, but it also has kept in perspective. I mean, you know, just some number of years ago you were back at the bookstore working fulltime, reading, learning whatou liked. Now all of a sudden, and other people count imagine as a debut novelist, to have hit it out of the park on your first time up. Right . So how do you process that experience of being a success the first time out othe gate . What does it tell you about or how you think about the work that you do . [orange] i think you dont,t i think you cant process it. Its too much. You know, its like surreality on surreality. I think i try to ground myself in basic things, like i run more now than i ever did before, and i try to keep writing and spending time with family, and try not to overthink it, really. And i try to keep writing and spendin [smith] yeah. Mily, [orange] its a lot of information and a lot of weird information to process. [smith] have a bunch of ideas that youve got percolating now . [orange] yeah, im working on a couple new books. [smith] novels . That you[orange] yeah. Ating now . [smith] any other aspect of art interest you . [smith] novels . That you[ora film . Eah. Ating now . Anything else that you think now, maybe, having had your eyes opened to this with the experience with this book having had your eyes opened to this [orange] well, i love to play piano, but thatsof my own private enjoyment and its, you know, itsust something that i like to do in my own time. [smith] yeah. I think thats so if you, when the time comes to write another book, will it also be a native story . I mean, do you think that the next book will be vastly different from this one . [orange] yeah, i hope its different. I certainly wouldnt wanna write the same thi. I dont know what it would look like because again, like i was saying before, if i just wrote a story, then it would automatically be sort of a white male, if you dont include your background, then you get erased before you even start. So it will include my experience because thats my experience, and my characters will always because thats what feels real and true to me. [smith] right. [orange] so i dont think ill ever write a book that somehow doesnt talk abo it, because i dont even really know what that looks like. [smith] youre still reading othe youre continuing to read as you do this work, for pleasure and to get inspiration, right . [orange] uh huh. [smith] so what are the last couple of good things that you read . [orange] i think im gonna mess her name up, but valeria luiselli, goo i just read, you read . She has hcoming book called and its absolutely fantastic. And my good friend Terese Mailhot has a book that, we graduated together, [smith] from the mfa program. [orange] at the same time, and we sold our books within two weeks of each other, and her book made the New York Times bestseller list here. And her books called heart berries. Terese mlhot. Thats an amazing book that came out this year. If you wanna be reading more nate voices, i would go there. [smith] its good that there are native voices, that were begning to se an adequate amount, if not enough. At least were beginni moved that were begning to se that being a slice of literature, thats good. [o mmhmm. [smith] right . I mean its taken a while. I think one of the reasons at people were so moved by this book and were so impressed by this book is ievfelt so different from ything else that we see. And maybe the time will come when its not gonna be as differentas it. [orange] well, if you look at all the books that are coming out and getting a lot of attention, itsthrobably more diverse its ever been, as far as what the publishers are wantinto publish now. [smith] a reflection of the changing, as you talk about, [orange] yeah. I think its, you know, i think its inevitable that its gonna keep ing that same way. [smith] well im so happy for your success. It really is a delight to see somebody whose book is so goo get the attention that he deserves and that it deserves, and i hope it opens the doors for you do a whole bunch of other great things going forward. Its like discovering a real talent, a jewel. [orange] thank you. [smith] thanks for making time to be with us. [orange] thank you. [smith] tommy orange, thank you so much. Nce clapping [smith] wed have you join us in the studio. Visit our website at klru. Org overheard to find invitations to interviews, q as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. [orange] theres a whole bunch of elements from mown life f that if i told you allem,isodes. If you said thats sad, itd probably make me sad. Like i lived through them and they were hard, lived through them and im okay, so other native people whove read my book, thats the one thing i havent so i think people who have gone through hard experiences dont necessarily get the same takeay. [announcer] funding for overheard with evan smit islcrovided in part by hpartners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy, the Alice Kleberg reynolds foundation, claire al stuart, and by entergy. Captioning sponsored by wnet stewart on this edition for sunday, december 1 Severe Weather snarls travel across the u. S. For World Aids Day living with. Ur and inignature segment the digital disruption of singer mac demarco. Next on pbs nehour weekend. Pbs newshour weekend is made possible by bernard and irene schwartz. Sue and Edgar Wachenheim iii. The cheryl and philip lylstein faro lind p. Walterin memory of george oneil