Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240704

Legal experts tonight. Were discussing rico is a powerful charge because it is so broad. It is one of the broadest laws in the nation, the way georgia uses it, as the Washington Post explains, because prosecutors can weave together alleged crimes, violations of state and federal laws, activities in other states, the law as this d. A. Knows well, does not require a defendant to set foot in georgia to be charged. Why . Because rico is that broad, you do need, of course, something to happen in the state, in georgia, but you could be a person who stayed out of state. Maybe youre a busy coconspirator. Maybe youre a coward and send other people to do things for you. Under the Georgia State rico statute, a long as some people have committed these crimes of some kind inside the state, other people can be looped in. Thats one of the ways d. A. Willis came out with this strong, broad set of charges last night rounding up these 19 defendants. Theyre not all Household Names. I want to show you defendant trump, giuliani, eastman, clark, chesebro, powell. These are people, some coconspirators listed by doj and not charged. Now, d. A. Willis has charged them. Then you have folks under scrutiny like mark meadows who was on the raffensperger call, and hes been an interesting one. Hes moved around the jan 6 and doj probe but never been charged. Or jenna ellis, censured for lying about the election but never charged. Now she is. Then as we mentioned, a broad conspiracy, the theory the case the d. A. Is using, also sweeps in people on the ground, local georgians. You see some of those people there at the bottom. Theyre not all Household Names but they are allegedly part of the same rico racketeering conspiracy. Its a wide net. They can bring in the multiple defendants who otherwise might have escaped scrutiny or accountability or again without rico might have been charged on an individual basis. Its stronger and scarier to charge them all. Now, theres nothing new about rico. It has been on the books against the mafia on the federal side, in the state of georgia for a long time. And many people know about it. That includes movies that talk about rico, songs that talk about rico. Meek mill said we started on the list most wanted and now its the forbes list. Can hear echo from informants i think theyre recording. We might just get hit with the rico. In a song called, well, rico. Now thats just a lyric, sure, about a law thats real. But as for the recording, its also relevant. In the trump case, they were recording, Georgia Republicans were actually so concerned about trumps criminal plotting that they went out of their way during those choppy days leading up to january 6th to record what turned out to be now according to the d. A. Criminal evidence. His demands to steal the race. Now, meek mill said he moved on from being on the most wanted list. Trump is a defendant on what you might call georgias most wanted list. These are the different plots, some of these, of course, very familiar, because if you look at the top of your screen, the electors plot was under scrutiny in the january 6th probe. And doj charged it through jack smiths probe. But there are new things that this d. A. Has uncovered. The second arrow is the effective plot to get georgia to overturn the votes. The d. A. Has also charged the Vice President pence plot out of georgia because it related. The doj interference as well, and if you go down to the bottom two arrows here, this is part of the Rico Conspiracy for the first time, we can show you that horrific poll worker harassment, it was unethical, terrible, it was criticized, but now it is indicted as part of the Rico Conspiracy along with the alleged voting data breach led by Sidney Powell on behalf of donald trump. You are looking at the rico case. Its strong, its long running and there are a lot of defendants more nervous today than they were when they woke up yesterday. I want to bring in our experts tonight. A man who has tried rico cases in georgia, jay tom morgan, former District Attorney for dekalb county, neighboring Fulton County, and back with us, professor Melissa Murray from nyu law. Welcome to both of you. Rico is broad and in some ways if you do the federal and state history, its complicated. I went through both all the way back to the Mafia Hearings In The 50s And 60s and what they wanted to do. Congress said okay, you guys are ducking and weaving. And you have this guy Money Laundering and this guy over here and this guy had a restaurant, and were going to sweep it all in. It worked, it busted about the five families. What do you think of the way the d. A. Is now using this as a strong case against so many trump defendants who according to the d. A. Were racketeering to steal the race . Ari, i prosecuted the First Corrupt Public Official in georgia under the georgia rico statute, and we got a conviction. There was a sheriff who we convicted of rico and murder. This statute is the most powerful weapon in a prosecutors arsenal. Because as you have just illustrated, not only can you bring in the crimes that occurred in georgia under the Georgia Statute, you can bring in crimes that occurred in other states and federal crimes. Thats why jack smith probably did not use the federal statute. Its not as broad as the Georgia Statute, and with this statute, there are 160 overt acts that are alleged in the rico statute. The prosecutor only has to prove two of them to prove the rico charge. Professor . Again, this is a really broad and sweeping statute. The Georgia Statute is more expansive than most state rico statutes and more expansive than the federal statute. It doesnt cohere to the same Tear Tortality constraints that other criminal laws do. You could actually charge someone based on conduct that occurred in another jurisdiction, so long as theres a nexus between that conduct and the crime that is in furtherance in the state of georgia. So thats why we have some of these defendants who have not ever stepped foot in georgia, and that will certainly be part of their defense, but its not likely to be completely availing because thats exactly what this statute contemplates, the prospect of a broad Criminal Syndicate that may have tentacles that go beyond the locus of the major conspiracy itself. Yeah, were looking on the screen, this number of faces. According to the d. A. , professor, this is the racketeering organization. This is the gang. This is the illegal group. We could come up with english words or legal words, but its an entire organized group, according to the d. A. Everyone is legally presumed innocent and theyll get their day in court. But thats striking. When you look at the giuliani of it, you have headlines, we talked about the movie references, mafia movies, dark knight references to rico. The headline today, giuliani who pioneered the use of rico, just got indicted on rico charges, professor. You talked about meek mill, but i think the real illusion here is to alanis morissette. This is highly ironic. Rudy giuliani made his career prosecuting the new york crime families under the rico statute. He then parlayed that into being mayor of new york city and from there on, he, again, rose to prominence, largely based on his role as a federal prosecutor, and here he is, the tables have turned and hes now facing the very same or a similar kind of statute, and the same kind of charges he once leveled against other people. How about that . Im sure some of the defendants and Defense Attorneys that giuliani went up against are saying karma right now. What goes around comes around. But he fits in perfectly, i mean, giuliani was in georgia promoting false lies to the Georgia Legislature about hiding of ballots and stuffing the ballot boxes, which we now know giuliani knows was untrue when he said it. Thats just amazing. Yeah, you called it amazing. Again, youre looking at this through the lens of whats provable. Youre not looking at this politically. Politically, people can debate things in public. We have robust protections for that in this country. Your freedom of speech doesnt get you to, you know, a defense to go and lie to the bank to get a loan or lying to the s. E. C. About your stock plan or lying to the fbi or in this case georgia officials. In furtherance of this Rico Conspiracy. So jay tom, take us into the minds of, you know, the prosecutors as they present to a georgia jury, because complexity is usually the enemy. You know, here, im here on msnbc. We have been covering this, rachel, joy, andrew weissmann, nicolle and myself, we keep track of it all. We almost love it, but in a jury trial, you want to keep it real straightforward. How do you do that . As an attorney, we try to follow the kiss principle. Keep it simple. But what she has done in this indictment, and by the way, the author of this indictment authored my indictment 20 years ago. Hes a phenomenal writer, john floyd. He has made it easy for us to understand. He will make it easy for a jury to understand. If they follow this indictment, those 160 overt acts, piece by piece, it will paint a picture that will be very hard to get around. Also want to bring up something we talked about at 6 00, and that is there will be cameras looking at each one of these 19 defendants. And i would assume that some of them, and their families will be telling them, find a way out of this. Yeah. You mentioned mr. Floyd, who works for d. A. Willis now. When is the last time you spoke with him . I spoke with him right when he decided he would take this he is a private attorney and he does this pro bono to help prosecutors. So when was that . Before he reentered the practice . That was when he agreed he would help ms. Willis. I said, john, you had a lot of practice at this. We were the first case 20 years ago. And since then, hes helped many prosecutors throughout the country. Its fascinating you mentioned that. Just on that point since you raised it, im curious, what do you think weighs on these officers of the law . We think about prosecutors, we think about people in Law Enforcement. They do have a tough job, sometimes they overreach, and we cover that as well. Its certainly a scrutinized field, but theyre girding up for what you might call in state court the trial of the century, jay tom. Well, fani has taken it on the chin and done an exceptional job of not responding. Mr. Trump accused her of having an affair with a gang member, which is absolutely false, completely made up. Because shes so public a figure, she cannot answer to those charges. She just tells her staff, well take this into court. Thats where this trial will take place. It will not take place in the press. Yeah, youre mentioning, by the way, could be legally defamatory, right . As false, even by the higher standard for a public official, but of course, most of these officials, professor, do their work. Theyll deal with any of it later if at all. Im curious what you think as well, professor, about the stakes of this in state court. Again, all defendants legally presumed innocent. 19 of them means if you take all the forget all the politics and whos running for president , you could have a rico case against 19 people, if you got 15 or 12 of them, that might be considered a success, because some change, some plead out, some go away or what have you. But this is a very big deal, and with the eyes of the nation on the courtroom, and as jay tom mentioned, it only courtroom where were going to have video. Its going to be very public for not only these defendants but also their families, as jay tom has suggested. But one of the things thats really struck me over the course of the last 20 hours as this has come out is what a terrible day for the Legal Profession yesterday. I mean, a good number of those individuals who have been indicted as codefendants are lawyers. And again, some of them have been Donald Trumps lawyers, and every person is entitled to a vigorous defense, but a vigorous defense doesnt necessarily extend to alleged efforts to overturn a lawfully conducted election. I mean, lawyers already get a bad rap from so many members of the public on these ideas that were unethical, unprofessional, ambulance chasers, but theres so many lawyers out here doing their level best to just abide by the law, to be decent, to represent their clients without showing fear or favor. I felt like Fani Willis Last Night exemplified those aspects of the profession. She said shes not prosecuting or targeting him because of her own personal views. She was simply representing as Law Enforcement officer the people of georgia and a wrong had been done against the georgia public. And she was merely trying to vindicate that. You know, you mentioned that, im curious, jay tom, how that fits into making the case. Because while ignorance is not a total defense to anything, there are times where, you know, at a human level, juries will actually be somewhat harsher or be more tough minded if someone is a lawyer or a doctor, and theyre being accused of something where theyre supposed to know. It can cut against them. A random person who says, and jack smith was very, you know, careful about this in the indictment, oh, someone was tricked into being an elector because they were a random civilian. Boy, if youre a lawyer, if youre Rudy Giuliani and you have practiced and jailed people over rico, and youre running around racketeering, allegedly, lying to government officials, allegedly, the jury might say, arent you supposed to know better . What do you think, jay tom . Ari, you took the words right out of my mouth. After reading the indictment, ill just say it right now, i think mr. Giuliani faces the greatest risk of legal exposure in this case. And because he is a lawyer. He used rico before. And it is embarrassing to the profession and as a former prosculator, im embarrassed that a former prosecutor who used rico has now been charged with rico. Really fascinating. You guys both of you, such experts here. Giving us measured nonpartisan, thoughtful analysis of something that is going to be a big story and a big, important issue with us for a while. Jay tom morgan and professor murray, thanks to both of you. Our live coverage will continue throughout this hour. Donald trump and these many faces you see, they have a deadline to voluntarily surrender. If they dont, if they play around, they will be issued Arrest Warrants and apprehended like anybody else. What that means next. rsv can be a dangerous virus. [sneeze]. For those 60 and older. Its not just a cold. And if youre 60 or older. You may be at increased risk of hospitalization. [coughing]. From this highly. Contagious virus. Not all dangers come with warning labels. Talk to your pharmacist or doctor. About getting vaccinated against rsv today. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. They customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. You could save 700 dollars just by switching. Ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. On the top of the pile oh. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. There are many different ways to process this major news of the rico indictment out of atlanta. Its Donald Trumps fourth indictment. The first state charges that relate to the coup. It is a place where theres a mandatory minimum, and there arent easy ways to pardon, so even if donald trump remains a popular republican, even if he assumed the presidency again, he would still have the legal challenge, a standa between a state if he were convicted where he would need to be incarcerated and a question of what happens for an elected President Elect who is legally and lawfully awaiting or experiencing incarceration. Those are many ways. But theres another way. And this is something thats gotten a little less attention because we have all been dealing with all of the other things i mentioned. Until last night, no lawyer or aide to donald trump had actually been charged for stealing the election or coup related activities. If youre a close news watcher, you might say, what about bannon . It was process, him defying the committee. What about navarro . Hes awaiting trial. Important but separate from whether you actually get hit with, for example, a rico charge for stealing the election. And this also matters because whatever you think of donald trump and other people who may try to follow his blueprint, you cant do a conspiracy by yourself. You certainly cant do a coup by yourself. Theres no diy unilateral coup. This aint tennis. This is a team sport. And if you start throwing people in prison, as the d. A. Has shown she is willing to do, she said very carefully last night, theyre presumed innocent, but she expects convicted people to serve their prison terms including that mandatory five years. If you start throwing a bunch of people in prison, i do not care how cocky or confident they seem, i dont care how much they said they support this or that politician, as we know from all world history, one thing that hasnt changed, people hate going to prison. And if they actually see a world where it is a possibility, it may change their behavior. I want to bring in now from atlanta, Trial Attorney katie phang and one of the colleagues keeping us informed through all of this. Good to see you again. Great to see you, ari. Katie, lets start there. Theres many things to get into. I want to talk to you about the surrender deadline, but first, big picture, what does it mean that theres so many other defendants and if any of them get convicted or pay a penalty, according to the d. A. , that will deter future efforts to steal elections in georgia or elsewhere . I think, ari, to your point, the sheer number of defendants in this rico indictment thats been brought actually has more impact not at the finish line, not at the sentencing, although that really is the incentive for people to figure out during those come to jesus moments whether or not they want to cooperate. Just because you have been charged in an indictment with multiple crimes it doesnt mean that now youre not allowed to cooperate, not allowed to be a witness on behalf of fani willis office, but the idea is, how do we get there, ari . How many of those defendants including eight of the 19 that are lawyers, not all of them having licenses anymore, as we know, but how do we get there . Who actually wants to play ball first . Because that is going to dictate the speed by which this case sees that finish line, that we get to the point where youre looking at the whites of their eyes, the jurors, to seat them to sit in judgment. We also have a footnote, a pretty big one, dealing with this possibility of removal to Federal Court for perhaps donald trump and mark meadows. But i do think now that you have the lawyers involved, do we anticipate having issues of Attorney Client issues . Attorney client privilege. Conversations had between lawyers and their client. How do we operate then outside of the confines of, i was just giving my client legal advice, what he chose to do with it, how he deployed that was up to him. We have also seen a fissure in any joint defense. We know the trump pac is not going to pay for the legal fees of jenna ellis. Up until now, we only have donald trump charged by himself by special counsel jack smith in that in the 1 6 election interference case, but we do have a little bit of a joint defense going on with walt nauta and carlos de oliveira. Theyre standing strong, shoulder to shoulder, but thats probably in large part because their fees are being paid by donald trump. When they start to drop like flies and they feel the coldness of being out on their own, would she then turn on Rudy Giuliani, on Sidney Powell . I want to emphasize once last thing before i stop. Its not just donald trump here. You also have people that have their own individual criminal exposure in this case, so they have to actually be watching their sixes to see whether or not someone is going to flip on them. With the 30 seconds or so we have left, what should we expect in the surrender process . So ari, next friday, august 25th, by 12 00, you have to turn yourself in, according to fani willis. If you dont do so, the Arrest Warrants that have already been issued in this case remain standing which also means if youre caught, youre going to go to jail pepding getting in front of a judge to explain why you didnt show up like you were supposed to. The really complicated thing is the arraignments for all these particular defendants. Do you surrender and be arraigned at the same time. Donald trump already has local counsel in play. He doesnt have an excuse that he has to delay in any way his surrender and arraignment because he needs local counsel. Were going to see a parade of people going in and out of the courthouse between now and next friday. Yeah, which will keep everyone busy. Katie phang, thank you so much. Appreciate it. How did we get here init started with the January 6th Committees investigation. That advanced things that doj and others may not have had on the radar. This new indictment uses and advances that material. We have a very special guest on that next. 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Com david im david goldberg, a bilingual Elementary School teacher and president of the california teachers association. As we start a new school year, theres something new happening in californias public schools. Jessie theyre called Community Schools. David where parents and families, students and educators are Making Decisions as one. Damien its a real sense of community. Leslie we saw doubledigit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. David its an innovation thats transforming our public schools. Narrator californias Community Schools reimagining public education. Youre asking me to do something against my oelth and i will not break my oath. A lifelong republican and trump voter there, who was explaining to the January 6th Committee why he resisted Donald Trumps final desperate calls of what he viewed as a request to break the law and break his oath. Now, this alleged racketeering in the indictment has a december 18th, 2020, white house meeting, where trump, giuliani, powell, and others were discussing what may be criminal plots to steal the election. That included ideas about how to seize Voting Equipment with the help of the military, something they failed to get done. And abuse Donald Trumps power to appoint someone, in this case, powell, who of course, was supposed to be his campaign attorney, but the idea is what if we just snuck her into the government itself and have her work with the military to seize voting machines. Its where Banana Republic and coup stuff meets, you know, keystone cops, because as i mentioned, it didnt work. It wasnt very thought out. Thats not a good defense if you are facing rico charges. Saying im bad at the crimes that you saw i really tried to commit, thats about competence, not about law. Former white house officials were clear about what they saw. Asking one simple question. As a general matter. Where is the evidence . What response did you get when you asked ms. Powell and her colleagues . A variety of responses based on recollection, including cant believe you would Say Something like this, things like this, what do you mean, where is the evidence . You should know. Things like that, or you know. A general disregard for the importance of actually backing up what you say with facts. And you know, then there was a discussion, well have it or whatever. I think it got to the point where the screaming was completely, completely out there. You have people walk in, it was late at night, had it been a long day. What they were proposing i thought was nuts. Those are trump officials, trump appointees, white house officials. All of this, of course, is drawing on the jan 6 committees work, also all the voice mails that giuliani was leaving for different officials. This happened in and outside of georgia and involved the elector fraud plot which is now part of the indictments racketeering charges. Mr. Speaker, this is Rudy Giuliani and jenna ellis, were calling you together because we would like to discuss obviously the election. Hey, brian, its rudy. Really have something to call to your attention that i think really changes things. I understand you dont want to talk to me now. I just want to bring some facts to your attention and talk to you as a fellow republican. That is just some of the evidence unearthed by the January 6th Committee. And if you remember those days, people said whats The Point Of Another Committee . Whats the point of investigations, what does it even mean if members of congress refer things . There was a lot of skepticism, a lot of shade, and look, skepticism is part of life. But we also have to be clear about when things work. What you might call the good news, whether its coming out of government or anywhere else. The January 6th Committee worked. It was bipartisan and drew on a lot of different sources, including Many Republican officials witnesses, and it yields facts which the rest of the world can use. In society, in journalism, and now as we see, in multiple criminal indictments. With that in mind on this historic night, we have two special nights. A former Senior Investigative counsel to that very house january 6th select committee, and Chai Komanduri on the political history of it. He has worked on several president ial campaigns including obamas and is known as the democrats inhouse historian. With that in mind, let me start with you. It did make history. You did unearth things. Im not saying your whole committee was perfect or your work is perfect, but as a journalist, when you do things that work and are good, were going to note that. Im curious, big picture, what you think of whats Come Out Of Atlanta Last Night and how it relates to the fact finding you did. Hi, ari. Thanks for having me. I think in the last two weeks it has been incredibly affirming of the committees work to see both jack smiths indictment as well as this indictment from yesterday. I think a lot of what we see, largely reflects the work of the committee. As we see in the georgia indictment, it has a level of detail that we were not able to share in a manner that is laid out in the criminal indictment that we see here, but again, it tracks the Summer Hearings in very much the way that we described the multipronged effort of the former president and his allies. We had a hearing about the pressure on state election workers. This was the first time the country was introduced to shaye moss and ruby freeman, and they provided live compelling testimony. We also heard from rusty bowers. There were aspects of this indictment that we see now that were featured as part of the hearings. In addition to the doj hearing that featured the letter of jeff clark that he requested to send to the Georgia State legislator. So several snippets shown during the course of the summer is now laid out, and essentially, that conduct meets the level of Georgia Statutes that rises to criminal conduct for this rico charge. Yeah. Appreciate your work and your breakdown of that. Chai, youre not here as a House Investigator or as a legal expert. Youre here because you have been so involved in how the Democratic Party has navigated these things. It would seem that there was an improvement or a learning curve. The January 6th Committee distinguished itself because it was factual and bipartisan. But it only got to be that way because Speaker Pelosi decided where to draw the line and where to stare down the sort of political thugs and hijackers. It only got that way because liz cheney had to deal with real politics. She was booted, as everyone remembers, from leadership, not for a mistake, not for a personal scandal. She was booted because as the committees investigator just reminded us, counsel, because they were fact finding. Im curious, to take us all the way back, what are your lessons here, in what was not automatic, the multiple sort of legislative and political steps and moves that Democratic Leaders and chiefly then Speaker Pelosi made . I cant remember a more Consequential Committee hearing in my lifetime. I think you have to go back to watergate to think about a Committee Hearing that was as important as january 6th. And like watergate, what the hearing did is it changed the narrative. Watergate was a bungled burglary and then by the end of it, it was a cancer growing on the presidency. January 6th was being presented by a lot of people as basically a rally where a few people kind of got out of control. Nothing more, nothing more to see there. What the January 6th Committee did is it changed the entire narrative. It said this was an assault on democracy. This was an attempted violent overthrow of the u. S. Constitution. And donald trump is singularly responsible for it. It completely changed the narrative. You can see that change in the narrative in what happened in the midterms in 2022. Where candidate after candidate, maga loony after maga loony, kari lake, herschel walker, all the Election Deniers basically lost, and they lost because january 6th changed the narrative about how we thought about those events and how we think about donald trump and the maga movement. And then it goes to the tricky position that democrats have been in during this period of rising authoritarian hate in america. On the one hand, Everybody Knows theres political disputes. No party is perfect. On the other hand, the party that is trying to actually hold the line on democracy or not allowing violent thugs to intimidate and hijack as someone just mentioned, poll workers and others, is also seen by some portion of the population as youre just doing itause it also benefits your side. Its both, right . You just mentioned, midterm fizzle of the republicans may very well be for those reasons, and yet at the same time, Speaker Pelosi chose to navigate that. Im curious your shoe on that now that we have so much data on that. Do we get here without Speaker Pelosis choices about when to really fight . No, i dont think we do. I think Speaker Pelosi was very brave in what she did. I think when donald trump sits in what is now courtrooms plural and thinks about who put him here, in addition to himself, looking in the mirror, which is something he would never do, the person who put him there is Speaker Pelosi. The one person who showed a certain fearlessness and understanding that, its not about the norms of not going after an expresident. Its about the norm of our constitution and our constitutional order. And respecting the right of u. S. Citizens to vote and choose their leaders and not have it taken from them by violence. Speaker pelosi was singular in figuring that out and understanding that. And it was her initiative that made this happen. And shes the reason why donald trump is going to be sitting in those courtrooms. Its an important point, and its not offered in the context of trying to target a political opponent. Quite the opposite. You could pick a democrat and say Rod Blagojevich and say when he was trying to abuse power, right, and take bribes to fill in that case a senate seat, there are people when might be a part of the political process, they might have run on a Certain Party line, but the question is the Legal Standard and the facts. I want to go back to you on a final word as well as a response to mark meadows, who your committee dealt with along the whole way, because he now stands indicted today. His lawyers saying nothing mr. Meadows is alleged to have done in the indictment is criminal per se, arranging meetings, cathing state officials, visiting a building, setting up a phone call. One would expect the Chief Of Staff to do these sort of things. Your response to that as well as any final words tonight. I thought it was interesting to see mark meadows was charged. I think its appropriate given the statutes he has been charged with here in georgia. I think that the key phrase is criminal per se, and when you take those facts and you apply them to the law, the overt acts and the counts hes charged with are appropriate. Thats exactly what the committee did. We followed facts. We did it for a different purpose than the District Attorneys office here in georgia as well as the special counsels office, but facts can lead to different things. Our Summer Hearings led to educating the country about the conduct of the former president , and now those same facts led to indictments. All really striking. My thanks to both of you. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Interesting conversation, at least as far as i thought. Coming up, we turn to a story that was mentioned moments ago. Those targeted poll workers, the maga harassment was not only ugly, not only unethical, today for the first time its part of an indictment. Thats next. Rsv is in for a surprise. Meet arexvy. the first fdaapproved rsv vaccine. Arexvy is used to prevent lower Respiratory Disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. Rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. 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I did it my way it turned my life upside down. I no longer give out my business card. I dont transfer calls. I dont want anyone knowing my name. I dont want to go anywhere with my mom because she might yell my name out over the Grocery Aisle or something. That was just some of the testimony shaye moss describing what happened after she became one of the innocents and random victims of this now indicted Rico Conspiracy. We know about the january 6th insurrection. There was all sorts of human tolls to this, over five exactly five officers ultimately dead. About 150 officers ultimately wounded. Millions of dollars in damage in the insurrection alone. That was, as we are meticulously following, just one final criminal act, and now convicted sedition, thats part of a larger and longer running set of conspiracies. In all these associates facing accountability about what they did which directly affected those two people who were just working to maintain american elections. Ruby freeman, entered, author shaye moss. They were falsely accused of election fraud. As you may know, knowingly falsely accusing someone of a crime is itself a crime. Heavily edited brief clip of Security Footage was circulated online and this was used to jim this up. Giuliani also made false and seemingly racist allegations, and one of his coconspirators now is a publicist who at one time worked for ea and one time was unlawfully conspiring to solicit requests and get ruby freeman to get new false statements that would fit in their conspiracy, lies, online, online. The indictment says they were recruited by william loses philip that third, the head of a group the causes of black voices for trump. In June Ruby Freeman and shaye moss were cleared of any fraud cases. And this whole process led to a Georgia Elections board double checking what are now initially what led to the indictments. So they even double check what the now indicted coconspirators were pushing. Indictments are just. At the d. A. Was clear about that last night. A set of allegations that have not been proven. These people are legally presumed innocent. But being legally presumed innocents court is the legal side. The public side, or we just saw in that general six testimony and what has been documented, which you might read about in a paper, has been beyond ugly. I want to bring in kathryn christian, former assistant District Attorney in manhattan, and then as nbc analyst. Welcome back. Glad to be here. I mentioned the dimensions to that and the Legal Process in its required fairness. But we wanted to hit this is part of our special coverage. There have been many different strands. Justice can be slow and the Court Process will still play out with trials. But tonight, given everything, what does it mean that the dea did find this evidence and that there is an attempt at some justice for what those clearly innocent individuals went through. Its very important. In fact i tagged all of the places where miss freeman and miss moss, their mother daughter, i mentioned in the indictment. So five of the defendants were the ones that harassed and intimidated, that in fact if you read the indictment they talk about seven methods that these coconspirators used, allegedly, in order to, allegedly, steal the election. And one of them listed by itself is the harassment and intimidation of Fulton County election worker ruby freeman. Its so important that she gets her own paragraph. Her daughters mentioned throughout. And you mentioned conway yes kanye west, published black voices for trump, then path for chicago and Rudy Giuliani. If you get the biggest person that harassed and intimidated, and that was donald trump. Surely. With that january 2nd phone call he said that miss freeman was a professional vote scammer, but she was a known political operative, accused her of awarding 18,000 votes to joseph biden. And that she stuffed ballots. I believe she testified to this. Having the president of United States say this about you, it caused all kinds of not to come after her. It intimidated her, threatened her. Just for doing, and they dont get paid a lot of money, their job. To uplift democracy. So its very important the d. A. Willis highlights what allegedly happened to them in this indictment, it is its very important. We have about 45 seconds, but theres law in this humanity. Do you think this story and this evidence will move jurors . I think it will. You can talk about donald trump really believes he won. That does not give you the right to harass and intimidate election workers because you believe you won. I think it will move jurors. Really striking. So much going on. We wanted to get to that and hear from you miss christian. Thank you so much. Happy to be here. We will be right back. E wwill be right back when nature and science get together. Pretty sweet things can happen. Like our senokot laxative gummies. To relieve occasional constipation, senokot starts with the Natural Senna Plant that science transforms into a yummy gummy sweet senokot laxative gummies. rsv can be a dangerous virus. [sneeze]. For those 60 and older. Its not just a cold. And if youre 60 or older. You may be at increased risk of hospitalization. [coughing]. From this highly. Contagious virus. Not all dangers come with warning labels. Talk to your pharmacist or doctor. About getting vaccinated against rsv today. What do we always say, son . Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance. So you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. In a rico case, when you have one, you have them all. Thats bad news for many of these defendants defendants. If you want to ask any questions about this case where were headed, you can always find me at airy melber on social media, whichever one you use, and if you want to connect with me you can go to ari melber. Com to connect with me directly. Thank you for spending time with us on this special two hour edition. Our colleague joy reid joins tomorrow night, tonight she was on well earned vacation. All in with chris hayes starts right now. Arts right now. Tonight on all in i am giving the defendants the opportunity to voluntarily surrender no later than noon on friday the 25th day of august. Donald trump is given ten days to surrender. Hes got to surrender by the 25th. The debates on the 23rd. Whats the plan . To surrender, he will surrender