A covert crises politicians misleading the masses folk on the channel continent isolated but dont worry boris and donald will survive and then join girlie says i agree with mr neil that both sides need to deal but this overhaul of businesses may look a lot easier without any breaks complications or toe and nor do breaks it may suit the e. U. No and put the u. K. And its proper place more quickly wrangle and humbly says govan gang still on track for the new deal common prepping the masses for the e. U. Bad to selves and finally alan james read messages us all the way from new zealand sending his greetings low key things back to you alan distaste and keep watching. Now few people have studied the they are the Political Leadership more avidly than steve read jobs they political commentator stephen just no joins me to assess these alley days of sucky of stamina so stay verge of how the surface appears starmer doing thus far i think hes doing pretty well when youre elected leader of the opposition in the midst of a pandemic theres a real danger that you are perceived as being wholly marginal from the crisis you have no power all you have are words and words a pretty hopeless in the context of a pandemic but hes made himself read a bit by his scrutiny of the government which it got away really with very little scrutiny before he got the job and that has been highly effective and 2nd this is not to be underestimated in the context of the u. K. Labor party hes taken control of its machinery quite early are and for a leader to have control of that machinery appointed is chosen general secretary of the party for example give sit quite a lot of leeway so it quite difficult circumstances hes made a significant start but in a sense these difficult circumstances have actually played into starmer style which is forensic and an understated the air passed rather suitable to the Prime Ministers questions in there and the virtual social distancing edge the house of commons Prime Ministers question has been closer to the core truth he is familiar with the former director of Public Prosecutions what is untested is whether he will be as effective when the house of commons is and its rowdiest when you have to think very quickly when will it could be. A very powerful weapon he hasnt had to use any of that hes played his strengths which is of course forensic questioning hes done throughout his entire career so there are still shoot huge tests to come and as you say in a way that wouldnt have always been the case with everybody this pandemic and the consequences of actually play to his strengths ive been there have any plans that. Twitter if hed done it as very safe and very disciplined or not much chance of twitter Fact Checking stamina i dont think there is that sort of disciplined approach a is that going to be enough for a leader of the opposition one say we get through this pandemic and people are going to be looking for a bit of inspiration. You know its by no means enough i think the calculation for the moment is that the government isnt obvious difficulty on many different fronts and its best to just let the government play out some of these difficulties at some points in the cycle a leader of the opposition must start stirring things start. The passion of the electorate as well as. Sort of distant admiration and so it wont be enough i can understand the all white caution is the driving force but if it remains the case that electro mountain will not be climbed the will have to be moments of great political courage in the years and months to come if he has to have a hope of winning this election whenever it comes later that of steve rogers your fame for your portrait so for a Prime Ministers and leaders of the opposition from the past not been to labor leaders in the last half century or so whove over large a conservative majority is how wilson and tony blair how would suck your stamina at this stage compared to the approach to leadership of that jewel well he has displayed a degree of wind in this both blair wilson had it coming it hasnt yet displayed the wit and flat that both of them also in their early years in opposition had it call it stomach has quite a job in keeping his labor party united he has said that wilson is model in that respect but in terms of flair and wit and birth and mischievousness we still havent seen those characteristics and to star me yet. For better or worse both for her wilson and tony blair can be said as Opposition Leaders to catch the mood of the titans and the post call that an environment is going to the choir some fundamental reassessment of the cats the mood in that situation is that the sort of thing that care stammers and likely to be able to to grasp and to to run with this will be his biggest test because suddenly were in a world where the state is seen as a benevolent force but what follows the pandemic in terms of Economic Policy and the role of the state i think will be stomach as they call it how much he disagrees with the government too might retain some of the statism in the years that follow and the degree to which he pushes for an even greater statist approach thats going to be a huge call because it shapes everything it shakes out shapes how much youre going to raise a taxation how much you plan to spend how you plan to tax and then you have to frame arguments that when elections with these policies so unquestionably the post pandemic economic debate will be the one i think decides in the end the fate of kiss star more than anything else now they told the press their right wing media have been pretty quiet on the start of thus far presumably because of the covert crisis and the atmosphere that were been working under politically there but the attack presumably will come when it does come what direction do you think it will take what they cant do which is what they usually do with a labor leader is say you cant trust this bigger hes inexperienced he will not know what to do if you go into government or she so. He with labor you cant do that with someone who rose to the very top as director of Public Prosecutions you can go for some of the things he decided to do that but you cant make that a tap that here is someone capable of government not to be trusted with government which is a familiar attack so i think they will go for him in that way but i think its very interesting even in these early days he has at least attempted to form some kind of pressure put it slip patients relationship with some of the more doting tory supporting papers and how will care stamina approach the european issues im in my back and i am a clinician much more a positive towards the European Union much more of a pro european than and generally carbon but its been pretty quiet on issues like extension of the transitional period and and things like that leave a guy. As a hot potato that hes going to have to handle very carefully yes i think he does we know that hes a pro youre in we know that he thinks that perhaps it is a disaster because he has opposed it and sets he doesnt believe a significant trade deal can be negotiated in a year he thinks it is impossible just purely from a practical point of view to do it so he will say look the government say they cant let it sit and when it transpires that either they cant or its awfully threadbare hat. I think then he might find the space to challenge and attack it but hes going to be very very cautious because he knows he cant win an election unless he gets some of those seats back that he lost that labor lost in the december election but he compared to other opposition parties who are already saying whats the government doing the should be an extension youre right is big absolute. Really cautious and hasnt after the word to that effect yet theres something comforting sayings for kids stamina near u. K. Poll say but both their labor Party Ratings are improving and his own passionate ratings overtaken by this johnson but not much sign is cutting any ice in scotland how us cant stomach tackle the scottish issue his stomach know he has got to make inroads in scotland i dont think he knows yet quite how hes going to do it it remains in a way more than bretts it is you know better than anyone the most fundamental shift in british politics since the independence referendum has been the rise of the s. N. P. In the collapse of the labor party in scotland its surprised every minute that the degree to which it happened corbin failed totally in his early hopes that he could turn that around and i think starmer he knows hes got to do it but its not sure how as you know. Jeremy corbyn and his allies were hinting that that could well be a referendum you see what will happen on independents i think he will oppose that route and be more strongly identified unequivocally with the defense of the union beyond that and hell have thoughts about the Scottish Labor Party but i dont think they are fully developed and i dont think he has remote lead yet thought through the messaging that will be effective in scotland stevo jobs thank you very much indeed thank you alex. Coming up after the break ill be joined by political commentator professor muffy who look at some of the keep policy challenges facing the new labor leader. Straight home. Lets face it was Government Official president elect facing the system i see. The system designed for people like. Me as long as there are. Different people working for Different Reasons the loss of job loss the whole. Most people in philadelphia ballot 2 paychecks away from home. Welcome back everything saki of starman has said thus far as leader of the opposition for very understandable reasons has been dominated by the covert crisis but ultimately its his approach to policy issues such as europe and above all the economy in the poor spun demick era that will determine his success or failure as labor leader to assess his prospects i turn to professor Richard Murphy who joins me from cambridge. Mafia in terms of how the pandemic has impacted on peoples attitude i know that your family have had your own personal experience as have so many others to tell us a bit about that and and how that impacted perhaps in a new attitude to the journal affairs well i am quite certain that hacker rode a virus and i didnt have a test because just some werent available and my son who actually went to italy in february only a University Trip came back with what was in retrospect glaringly obvious the coronavirus even though he wasnt d taught this in the seattle area at that time indeed i went to see him i was so white about itself almost certainly he gave it to me personally because of that now the reality is that most people compliance with lockdown is going to last for a lot longer we have a lot more to d distance to go before we return to something that looks like 2019 again in my opinion origen were very glad to have you back fed from commenting on on this program when i asked you during the leadership race you said a lot of what suck your stomach does more the panda hobart as johnson was performing as Prime Minister how right you where. Indeed look to Boris Johnson as performed abysmally as in my opinion as Prime Minister and i dont think im alone clearly he suffered recent record of fools in popularity for any leader in a week so to start has been given a blessing in the form of Boris Johnsons performance to date and thats very confusing for what were about to discuss there because it meant that kiss time has not had to define his own position he has probably wisely just let Boris Johnson keep digging the hole hes already in and thats the Dominic Cummings affair but the sop point to something that has plans are clearly are does that suggest more fundamental weaknesses in the consent of the government structure where sapir starmer will be able to exploit as Opposition Leader both you and i have been around politics for quite a long time alex and i equate this with the black wednesday era or john majors government theres been a catastrophic loss of confidence in the ability of the government and Boris Johnson has reacted by supporting Dominic Cummings or not and taking the necessary step of getting rid of it in that case i see this is being full year period of a lame duck government staggering towards him in negligible election where these are going to be very different what we can from what we could have imagined last december very few people only the optimists thought that labor had a chance of winning in 2024 when we looked at the last election result the dalai cummings affair seems to have changed that completely i think were seeing a government that is already hold below the waterline and where were just going to watch it see steadily over the next few years. But of course the conservative party are stol living in the polls albeit the gappers nara and of course the guns of the tory press havent been termed on the labor leader yet want that sort of thing make a difference well i lets be honest alex we dont know if we now see a situation where there are a great many further desu coronavirus then i think we can see the to repress holding this government to account i dont rule out what that would require a change of tory leader. I certainly can see there being an internal challenge to Boris Johnson in a way that was unimaginable last december so many things are still to play for in this situation to start his job right now is to let it roll to be blunt and only when the pandemic comes towards a close and epidemiologists tell me that will be by late this year early next year come what may then. He will have to lay out his real school and people will lead to know where he sense but right now he doesnt need to do that too but when he does need to do that when he has the layout install what he says approach going to be on the hot potato or for the imagination to come up with policies from the host pandemic on the economy which are going to be fundamental the success of the next election. Everything that we know of is being put on hold except apparently rexx it where the transition period is not going to be extended im still not entirely convinced that that is true i think that there will come a point where panic will d simply setting in the government about the consequences of continuing to pursue wrecks and without an extended transition because the the lack of preparation and i am not convinced that we are going to finally break on the 31st december this year as a consequence that doesnt mean to say we dont need a policy kissed on the. Clearly doesnt need a policy on europe what his star has got to do is find a policy platform that lets him. Balances risks while saying he respects the result of the referendum to see hunter in the us he cannot for example say to lead a bloody reopen the risk of having that fight again so really hes saying that part of the war then should reconciliation with europe and i believe you would have to negotiate hes going to city and on may economy it could be argued that in the postponed demick atmosphere that the the sort of economic measures required to get us through the cases and then after the crisis a rather more suitable to the labor party to a left of center party than to the tory party but equally theyll be a lot of imagination acquired a new Economic Policy as the labor party in a position as yet to come up with the answers to these fundamental questions. Its obvious that this situation is one where labor should be able to play a strong hand and the conservatives are playing a hand which is one theyre unfamiliar with. Limited involvement in the economy employee one 3rd of the u. K. Payroll which is what the government is doing at the moment is something that no conservative Prime Minister has ever imagined doing so its their way out of their comfort zone and were already seeing a reaction to that they are trying to enter their scheme too soon by look at it theyre panicking about the size than actually that the National Debt has actually fallen in 2020 because the bank of england has bought that more debt than has so far being created this year which means that the real terms of what is owed back to the market the National Debt has fallen and there is therefore an opportunity here for labor to come up with something really creative theres not a shadow of a doubt where that direction of policy should go 1st of all they should be looking at very Long Term Debt financing almost every sane macro economists that i know is now talking about issuing debt at tiny rates of interest the government can pay nork 14 percent interest on debt of up to 15 years oppresses that means effectively no interest throughout the lifetime of the learned issue that or even if youre in perpetuity never ever cancelled the debt and never repay it and theres a demand for that or that sort and youre in a situation where basically you can fund whats going on now without having to worry about a repayment its put off not just like grandchildren 0 but wait no grandchild was ever repay the debt created by their grandparents in history so we d dont need to learn about that metaphor either but its literally good thought at the point where we just dont have to worry about it there is no issue about repaying the tool so he can fund whatever he wants he can say he can deliver a Green New Deal he can say he can commit to creating jobs in every constituency of the u. K. And all of that is supported by business. And its not a question about major this this is all agreeing with what labor should be saying so theres a very very clear platform that this so lets party policy should be very clear i just wish to start spelling that out exactly people need to hear it so as a sort of 1945 moment will the electorate make conclude pos pandemic of these things were possible when fighting the pandemic just as the electorate regarded what was possible in in fighting the 2nd world war then quietly possible in peacetime can this sort of x. The same show creates this big a fundamental transformation in Public Attitudes and might that be to labors benefit. Yes i think youre absolutely right about that alex i think that there is every chance that the public ass you just cant change the fear of what is called debt which is actually investment will go the idea that we are somehow in a desperate financial position because we are in fact spending to invest in an old term future is going to cease to be a cause of concern remember that in 1945 the debt to National Income ratio was 250 percent and in real terms at the present point in time net of wants to do the same its only around 60 percent only a quarter of what it was then and the idea that the government has got to fund its programs with tax a balance the books which is being promoted for a decade by the conservatives as a way of putting forward the ideas for government has again been shot it the idea that everything has to balance and that we cant borrow has gone and i believe the time for politicians to not only. Write that way you were actually explain why its appropriate to do so and this is the reality of the way in which the future can be found it has a right and they need to actually explain that we really should now be talking about people investing through the government in our future and the National Debt in this sense is not anything to do with debt still is the National Credit or better still lets call it National Savings and investment and bizarrely National Savings and investment which has 167000000000 in it at the moment is part of the National Debt it is just the savings scheme put to use to create a future for our country and thats what the National Debt is if the labor party can communicate that this is the way to save for our future then i believe that we have a real opportunity to transform society at large and finally professor much of my free talking of grasping the 1st of all what was king of stammers approach to scotland b. And does have a chance of success where the inverse the appropriately so do is replacing. As leader in scotland will oh im sure thats something that the Scottish Labor Party has to address itself but i hope they read the runes if labor was granted the dissolution and run with it and cook or a radical Economic Policy for scotland operated within a more liberal part of that which i think labor would be wise to consider after all it was the original promoter. 997 as the Scottish Parliament developing and allowed that process to take place then if it was to do that i think scotland would have a chance of recovery in scotland and seeing all members return to london as a result if it doesnt do that its standing its got at the moment hes done it right and again i dont need to tell you that i know how bad it is i see scotland is the future saudi arabia of europe is it has all d opportunity for Renewable Energy than just about anybody else so its got leaves totally different thinking to mean as far as labor is concerned has it got the will power the Energy Insights that i dont know certainly not in the current scottish region professor Richard Murphy thank you for joining us again on the our examined show thank you alex many commentators thought that silky of starmer had drawn the ultimate short straw and becoming labor leader under the shadow of the greatest Health Crisis for a century and the event the atmosphere of crisis for stood him in good stead governments particularly in his forensic understated style as Prime Minister of questions of the cost of those Prime Minister has been shorn of the being ranks of public in a by social distancing and as a result i think he has looked stumbling and then that youd like to see how itll take more than bosses bumbling to make your stammer Prime Minister that will inquire squaring the european issue with labors former support of and above all finding that new economic platform to take account of the post pandemic reality. Over the last half century or so the bin to label illegals honna wilson and tony blair who hold the top of the law which totally majorities for better or for was both of them caught in the mood of the times and the means to be seen whether silky of style can do likewise and so for me the myself and all of the show its good bye for now stay safe well see you again next week. You cannot be both with the yeah you know what. According to several sources felice in the United States kills from 2 to 4 people every day my. Lunch i had his hand. With sand i used to read and. See what am i being arrested for slayer is fun for me enough such that its just their little world to establish they developed just us against them and. How long a surge of 2525 years has. Never had to shoot someone quoting you know oh my. God there is a corruption inside of this lease well they think closure is. Odd no team no crowd. No shots. Actually felt. Well and strong no arrests were. Points your thirst for action. 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