Hello and welcome to cross talk were all things are considered im about as russia been meddling in u. K. Politics according to an official report the answer is maybe kind of and the usual highly likely reporters and also secretary of state my campaign you know is on a crusade against china does anyone outside the beltway really care. Crossed something this and more im joined by my guest in london marcus puppet. Hes editor in chief of politics 1st magazine and we crossed to alexander me curious teasin writer on Legal Affairs as well as editor in chief of the brand originally prospect was in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was ok lets go to marcus in london mark as i read the russia report and i couldnt help but get the feeling that it was kind of a Cross Section of a buzz feed story and a madison Avenue Market see proposal really kind of short on facts high on accusations and evidence free thats my conclusion go ahead mark. I have truth shall occasions paid in a judicial way and in no way could all the law with the courage allegations in that i accept demands in fact evidence to so who actually accusations and if the evidence is not bad if the evidence is not forthcoming then the case should be dismissed now as a matter of the Parliamentary Press gallery i made sure that i quickly are quiet our culture your words has become not only immigrants and as the last records and i will say this piece after us glance i was extremely dubious because allegations of the name sure which are being made by this committee of tolerance against russia should legally manifest itself in a release of the manifest itself in at least 100. 00 pages but the rules was only 20 pages and that is a very strange strange events sandra lee the pool is full of the traditional language of british official languages such as the u. K. Is committed to the rule of law the u. K. Is committed to up hold the International Law based system in the language of british officials are paid to has for centuries deceived a great many people brinson and poles now turning to the cons hands there was no evidence whatsoever forward to support the accusations against russia indeed intrudes paragraphs it clearly stated there is a no evidence to support a bass and russia interferes in the solution as an untruth in source independence referendum and in the sand paragraph it clearly states is. There is no evidence russia interference in the us who files the 19 general election in prison on that basis there is no case to be heard because there is no evidence corroborates in these assertions against russia what we have seen in this report is possum parcel. Very well orchestrated and i was very loose less media p. R. And Political Campaign against russia because russia is not sure the 99 seas and russia is a russia resurrections much of it so yes irans superpower status is and that is what is high in this report that is what is behind the fear of britain and america well its enemy cares and think my very curious about it is that it is essentially is demanding people like ourselves and our viewers to prove a negative because they make a claim and they try to build a case to satisfy that claim but they obviously dont and they turn around and say you have to prove to us that they didnt meddle this is inverting the entire inverted and logically end and actually how you approach the law in any kind of meaningful in on as an investigation go ahead oh well this is exactly the point because instead of saying you know we have all this evidence that there is russian meddling you know politics and you know setting out what the evidence isnt coming to conclusions all this saying is there is no evidence of russian met you know politics that must mean that the Intelligence Services are not doing their job properly because even though there is no right. Now we. Do find it and then i see absolutely right in saying that very aggressively people like us. Dare i say the russian government. As a well you know we got no evidence that you actually did metal should prove to us that you decent its its not marcus was talking about how do you know judicial approach is legal is it your judicial approach its the world turned on its head it says you know you know we make this search and we bring in all these extraordinary deniece witnesses people that William BrowderChristopher Steele people you know who have their own well known views about russia we dont look beyond books we dont call it academics or insults the british universe is people who you know we know weve got them on all programs look so that were just me can see notion we make an assertion its not a saturday session not an assertion of facts but this all beliefs and then jamal means that the other person the other saw its premises from a heats its its its alice in wonderland stuff and you know what you are mentions i want to kind of go deeper and. Marcus here and be the expert external witnesses here im reading from the report here and William BrowderChristopher Donley ed lucas christopher. Think its gone to the point of being ludicrous i mean all these people have a right to their opinion but this is the external witnesses theyre experts here of one sign of this debate if its even to make this one empty accusation here and i mean shouldnt the writers of this report be embarrassed by this i mean anyone watches Russian Fairs in every respect and how you feel about it with everyone going to the conclusion this is really one sided go ahead mark. Well if britain has a free and independent media then it is journalists both for the cost and prince fans want to highlight it to the British Public and that these excerpts and i use the words in a very loose way in inverted commas these acts on russia are not all jacksie of individuals when it comes to some boston masses why because for many years now after they have demonstrated his or seriously so who lost they have demonstrated his hostility towards the russian government hostility towards Russian Foreign policy so they are not objects if it and they are certainly not impartial but once again what we see in britain is another example another manifestation where british politicians fear were game boltons so many accusations of any kind whatsoever against lusha know it and they do not have to put forward evidence to support those assertions. Mainstream asia will not question they will certainly not ask penetrating questions they will last scrutinize why because it may just sounded in britain and also in America Peter how collapse as that is why british politicians feel they can make any claim against russia because they know british Mainstream Media is not going to scrutinize what they are saying their money theres no downside of being wrong here ever ok im going to be here im going to make a supposition here of course this is this is hostility towards russia and this as you do to bolster nato i do bolster defense spending in the u. K. And in United States i mean in the team then in. So city of an enemy but theres a kohler area to all of this and i think its even more insidious because these these the agenda i just mentioned thats going to go on anyway ok child well talk about china later in the program here but this is really a pitch for censorship and its ok for the Security Forces to control free speech to decide what is excess acceptable speech and of course the other point here this is directed right at us here at r. T. You know what absolutely i mean the 1st of those experts i mean this is a tiny group of experts an impartial investigation would call for many many more experts learn and then this and expose little diverse backgrounds and joint verse views these people were chosen because they are known to have the views about russia that lead you to your quite right the only. Evidence and i think on it and im sorry i used the word in evidence in inverted commas the any actual quotes all made on made about russian will cost on c. And about scrutiny and of course hope we see we see a campaign against these broadcasters afterwards and who pursues these increasingly enough the leader of the British Labor party coming back to marcuss point who is of course a lawyer he must know when he reads this your absurd it is so charitable i would call him a to all these years on earth but he he has a Legal Training he has a Legal Training he must see when he reads this report that is fact free that its the experts behind it are not you know from a representative pool of russian experts not remotely and yet hes campaigning now for r. T. For those actions yet taken against oxy. Thank you absolutely what is just russian book but his voice is dissident voices and we place and its really interesting because there is such a thing as off coming in supposed to be its not supposed to be partisan here now what were hearing now from the labor party is that it should be. Partisan the government should get involved and decide what is a good speech. Safe speech security speech for for the public sphere in britain i mean this is going over the line i mean i have my issues with off coming in and now theyre going to be shelved aside in the governments going to decide what you can say what you can hear what broadcast mark is that i mean that you. Well pisa for many years now common has been the british on unsolder british test status from an. Unofficial sense censorship asian save so there is not a must a love for all soft console it says that in regards to the labor party let me tell you this because certain policy is the establishment it is the policy of the british establishment the labor party has a long or be an Opposition Party controlled by the british establishment indeed soviet diplomats in the 1940 s. In the 1950 s. You saw reports that some moscow the labor party is also chain you and socialist it is our policy control idea sounds now and again the policies led by socialists i dos socialists have to be right for example my house 1st i didnt recent times very cool but as far as the british establishment is concerned now that she is salma is head in the labor party the labor party in their eyes is back in safe hands ok well you know theres that report will have delved into the oligarchs russian oligarchs living in the u. K. And how they use their money probably little influence but i suppose that will come out in a long deal right gentlemen were going to go to a short break and after the break well continue what its real news day. To. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics or business im show business ill see you then. The sudden forced and illegal takeover of the government. By a small group. Rather than revolution resource soldiers conduct small group the cooperation when you have a tiny group of people who have all the power you have to have some means to make sure the rest of us dont get together and talk about. Police or sacrifice some. Places that capitalism exploited and destroyed for profit and left behind misery poverty environmental devastation and so you see things like Voter Suppression building more prisons you seem tearing and all sorts of undemocratic practices are well in that world are well into. Question the. Welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered im people about to remind you were discussing some. Ok lets go back to london i was going to be here is my pompei always been very young bombastic i would say in the last few days here used to take. A swing at north. North stream me and also hes come out very loudly about china here in let me quote you something he said here its really quite interesting to me china ripped off our intellectual property and trade secrets costing millions of jobs across america really tiny did i thought about american corporations that maybe i got this wrong or had out well you know 1st of all youre right about this i mean it was a merry go crazy so i just didnt send the f. X. A receipt china not just china by the way to make. Indonesia to all kinds. Places thats supposed to be you know their Business Decisions america rist the land of Free Enterprise all through all thats the idea anyway but seriously i found pompous speech extraordinary troubling and very very concerning i mean its. Unbelievably aggressive in its language 8 paints a picture of china which is so dark i mean i im not going to say i didnt read just the mail year. Earlier though oh i dont well quite but i mean its clean eating into not just us all to do full spectrum chandran the us is clearly more than just jobs issues of that kind thats a demagogue cast specht of this speech intended to rally American Public opinion is clearly looking for a long confrontation with china which is now being represented just basically do you soviet union so were back into all of that all over again its cold war suit with a vengeance and i have to say i think a lot of people in europe especially will be looking at this and they will be you know shaking their heads. And sighing and say to themselves oh no not yet because this is one of his biggest trading partner is china it was remember that in italy as geminis journeys biggest trading partner is china and this is what its all about and of course you have the demagogic statements about china stealing our jobs. China stealing our technology the chinese cant come up with their own technology thats why theyre ahead of us i mean theyre who is ahead on flights because the chinese ambassador. Or i know that in many cases will in western Companies Want to do business in china is the day they sign a waiver to a lot of their technology. I mean its not as if it does it doesnt just show espionage happened of course it happens now is it me always and my company or thinks its only one country in the world it doesnt everybody does it are you a part of doing business here let me go to marcus here is one of the things that we also he said is that the world must change china or china will change us well thats kind of interesting there thats kind of a form of orientalism if i had ever heard any go ahead. And i know that. That is a form of passive aggression and that is something of that of course the worship be very very alarmed by it but i suspect peter that i have a dissenting voice in all of this yes on the one hand there is clearly growing tension between washington and beijing that manifests itself partly in American Military mini this in the South China Sea and also the trade war but on the other hand i submit that it is not sit in the interests for either america or china for there to be a further and major serious deterioration in the relationship between the 2 countries because if they was if the economic relationship between the americans and the chinese was to collapse if it was to be said and then both countries almost overnight would go into recession the chinas projects the one yes and that has a very very large ambitions and i have no doubt it will prove a great amount of money for the chinese but it will not compare to the trade in an investment relationship the chinese have we are america and i would also say this there are a lot of commentators who are us who can talk about how Chinese Military might and how the chinese could as americans in the South China Sea well yes the Chinese Military would certainly fight anyone in the world to defend Chinese National security but the Peoples Liberation army laments the Largest Armed forces museum in the well as this chinese i have progressed when it comes to tender logical masses and they have done exceedingly well they are still dependent on luster for hightech and not. For a lot of. Different systems and also for lesser of generation. If china has the congo you know who retire you will see the difficulties the chinese will encounter in fighting to a very advanced military thats high around the house so you cannot compare the Chinese Military to the American Military i dont think were there yet and i think go back to the point you made a minute ago that out of that i mean theres i mean its the United States thats threatening trade its not really the beijing doing it i mean. You know it you know the way its being played out now its either or its the china world or its the west you know whom im watching and sense as me and its being pushed to look that direction and at this point its a very dangerous game of chicken but i dont think anyone wants real confrontation here or whats happening here and its go back to my point they are hes concerned with nas or them thats where we are in this struggle right now im going to be careful this is exactly because i take all the points that monkey says and youre absolutely right peter if you read the chinese meat yet or does the chinese english language media they are a fraud but these are vents they dont looking for a fight with the United States theyre not looking to sever the economic relationship with the United States all the points that marcus is making about this being interim mendus own goal full both the United States and china and they move to an adversarial you know hostile well the chinese themselves and making them am quite ill but the fact is you are discussing this in a rational way and there is not much rationality in my own case reach theres not much rationality in u. S. Policy about china at the moment and other countries there are not these things in. A more rational way the europeans the southeast asians countries like taiwan countries like thing that means theyre looking at all of this and theyre being asked to take sides in exactly the way that you say and they dont like it they dont want to be told but that is the world that people like mike. And it must be set a lot of people in the United States are drug learning incidents and act out on this list all but you have to remember there isnt much pushback to stall its very messy amik an apocalyptic byzantine reign which which is completely counterproductive because a company you also say a team has taken so if bandage us in western generosity what world is he living it. Well this is the same individual case i do want to say only the cia has or for our own foreign governments now when had i have come here or indeed other western politicians talk about generosity well i suppose generosity has been defined in there are no terms i dont trade could be chinese would find it generous how the americans and the british or the special services or america and britain have interfered in hong kong and have all this traces and are provided assistance to the militants princesses in hong kong i dont think the chinese or indeed any other country in the well us will find it generous that the American Society is leader cloying elements or lysis to these ngs im told and where she is a restless muslim province in the way in the west in most parts of china so you know how on earth can my own peer make the assertion that bats america the west in general has been generous but then it takes me back to my points which i raise. Earlier on in this episode my own piers is simply one west some politician who knows there is not going to be scrutiny with his comments when it comes to oh it comes to china because american mainstream and major simply a lot of the american assertions and for they are not go into question here when it comes to china because american mainstream asia is not a free no independent they all use as a weapon and i would say most potent weapon the west has and its also to attack countries in the road which for sure independence Foreign Policy is you know you know it wasnt me curious meeting its a very interesting confluence of events right now we have the upcoming american president ial election donald trump is way down in the polls. If appears i think theres a growing consensus that his greatest weakness is the reaction to the corona virus plague of course his administration is pointing all of the blame at china the the recovery is not in the cards are nice for the majority of people here china just isnt it is a very convenient card to play right now i would say and it can be it is convenient because theres no pushback as marcus was saying but is extremely dangerous because the interconnection the compilation of the American Economy to the asia chinas economy is so very very deep and intense nothing like if ever was with russia for example go ahead well youre quite right i mean they receive the atmosphere in the United States at the moment hes extremely feeds it and obviously there is a political dynamic there is in domestic political dynamic you make china skate all americas fadia to deal with the Virus Outbreak in fact is part of the. Home to his speech actually touches on this is all showing us all that you know things are happened in the way that they have happened the fact that china dealt with a Virus Outbreak much more mistake to me that the us is stuck is another a shoot but we mustnt statens 2 things about this 1st lady the drift towards confrontation with china has been happening to some time on actually salty down to Barack Obamas administration always ease huge the accent or at least in the last few months but the drift was already pointing that way on the 2nd days though there is no real discussion all just use of backseat we really United States is a very very strange ensemble in the Financial Times main exactly that point im worrying about saturday you know when to make a last observation here i remember the cold the 1st cold war of the soviet union and there was a real debate today there is no real debate when it comes to china thats all the time we have i want to thank my guests london i want to thank our viewers for watching as the iraqis the effects of the. You cant be both with the yeah you like. No team no crowd. No shots. Patches. In the extract no its. Quench your thirst for action. On september 19th 1977 you now a subsidiary of the like a corporation announced that it was holding down most of its camel plant. Deal work many of them feel better under 20 to 30 years. Particularly that make up the work in your many years you are to believe that we are put out on a very dont know what were going to do it really started in the late seventies when these companies were able to move their production offshore so you saw the ending of a number of Steel Companies the shifting of manufacturing to the global south where the wages were lower where the environmental rules were not either existed or enforced and thats the beginning of this concept of these transnationals they had the technology to do it they had the Transportation Systems to do it and frankly governments werent stopping them