Transcripts For ALJAZAM Consider This 20140722

Hospital in gaza. We can, according to international law, take out those rockets. There is no way we can come to any Peace Agreement unless it abandons its terrorism. Hamas militants sneaking into israel through a series of tunnels. Theyre used by militants to launch attacks. Now is the focus to bring about a ceasefire that ends the fighting. The United Nations Security Council calls for an International Investigation into the crash. Finally the planes black boxes and the victims bodies are on the move. The two black boxes will be handed over. Those bodies will be taken to the netherlands. In the meantime russianstate backed television telling a different story. We have to make hur that t the sure that the truth is out. We begin with a soaring death toll and diplomatic moves towards peace in israels struggle with hamas fighters in gaza. More strikes targeted gaza on monday night after rockets, bombs and naval ground artillery battered people and buildings to the al aqsa hospital. Hamas rockets continue to pummel israel. Israeli losses include 27 killed, all but two of them soldiers, and more than 100 injured. At the white house president obama said that while israel has a right to defend itself from hamas rocket and tunnel attacks, the administration is concerned with the rising number of deaths on both sides. It now has to be our focus and the focus of the International Community to bring about a ceasefire that ends the fighting and that can stop the deaths of innocent civilians both in gaza and in israel. And while secretary of state john kerry arrived in cairo on monday to work on a ceasefire, it was after he had to defend himself from mocking israeli claims of mounting a pinpoint operation in gaza. Its a hell of a pinpoint operation. Its a hell of pinpoint operation. Right. Its escalating significantly, and it underscores the need for ceasefire. We have to get over there. I reacted, obviously, in a way that anybody does with respect to, you know, Young Children and civilians, but war is tough. Today kerry announced 47 million in u. S. Humanitarian aid for palestinians displaced by the fighting. For the latest lets go to gaza and nick shifrin. Nick, good to have you with us. The israeli attacks are still going on, and israeli tanks hit the al aqsa hospital on monday. What actually happened there . Reporter yes. This was in the afternoon, 2 00 or 3 00, at least three shells according to officials in the hospital we spoke with landed inside the hospital, destroyed one of the walls, one of the tours. One of them landing right in a postsurgical ward in a room killing one to two people. The hospital says that it was targeted. Israel says that there was a nearby cache of antitank weapons. It took about three or four hours for the Israeli Military to respond, but finally they said that the target was legitimate. It was those antitank weapons, and that they were in the immediate vicinity, unquote, of that hospital. Thats why it was targeted. And there is no apology from israel. They blame hamas for putting the weapons so close to the hospital, but those of us at the hospital we saw scenes of absolute chaos. Dozens of patients have to be spirited out of the hospital. The hospital basically ceased to function. The top floor was really decimated. Not only two killed but dozens wounded and nurses 40, 50, 60 feet away from the first shell that came in had shrapnel in their legs. Really a bit of a war zone inside a hospital inside the e. R. Of that hospital. They tried to get all of the patients out and moved to another hospital, the central gaza hospital where so many people are already. That hospital is already overwhelmed sp short of supplies. Ill give you a sense of how difficult it is right now for the medical professionals who are trying to cope with the thousands of wounded palestinians. Just a hospital completely overwhelmed by whats going on. On the other side, Israeli Forces lost seven troops on monday, four when hamas fighters entered israel through a tunnel. The conflict is just clearly continuing to escalate. What is the hope now for the diplomatic efforts . Reporter theres a lot of pressure on both sides to find some kind of ceasefire. As you mentioned secretary of state john kerry is in cairo, and so is secretarygeneral ban kimoon. All of them are getting together trying to do two things. One, convince the israelis to stop the bombardment and convince hamas to accept an egyptian ceasefire proposed last week. Hamas sees it as a loss if they accept a ceasefire, which would not give them anything they ask for including opening the borders and lifting of the israeli siege. On the israeli side they have vowed very publicly both the politicians and the military professionals have vowed that they will not finish this operation until all of the rockets cannot leave from gaza to israel and all of those tunnels this is key all of those tunnels that hamas used to get into israel and kill all those Israeli Soldiers, until all of those tunnels have been removed, antonio, that is not something that takes a few hours. Thats something that takes days if not weeks. So its not clear if either side is really willing to entertain a ceasefire. Were going to talk more about those tunnels coming up. Nick shifrin reporting from gaza. Thank you. For more im joined from jerusalem by Israeli Defense forces spokesman Lieutenant Colonel peter lerner. Great to have you with us. Reports out of gaza are that the aleast five people were killed and 60 wounded at the al aqsa hospital in gaza when israeli shells hit nearby. We have pictures of heavy damage from the shelling, and our reporter, nick shifrin, in gaza just told us that the idf has said that antitank missiles were stored in the immediate vis isnt of that hospital and that thats what you were targeting. What can you tell us . Nicks got it right. Actually, this situation where hamas, this terrorist organization, places its munitions and offensive capabilities, its rockets in the vis isnt of civilian areas, in the vicinity of internationally recognized secure and safe supposed safe sites is a thing that they do. Indeed, we are targeting antitank missiles that were in a close vicinity in a Storage Place in the close vicinity of the hospital. Its unfortunate, but this is what this organization does. They have no regard for human life, and that is what theyre doing. The question, i guess, is where do you draw the line . I know that rockets have been found at a u. N. School. That homes have been used for rocket attacks, and that theyve also been used to hide entrances to tunnels into israel. But if you are risking the safety of civilians at a hospital, how do you make the choice to bomb . The Israel Defense force does not target civilians. We go out of our way to avoid civilian casualties. We have dropped leaflets in towns where weve asked people to leave telling them on a specific day. So monday morning at 8 00 please leave the area. Please go to such and such place. There is a safe zone where you can you will be safe. Unfortunately, hamas is telling them not to go. What that ultimately means is were actually setting ourselves up for ambush by the enemy, by hamas. We come in, and theyre waiting there with an ambush and attack us because they know where were coming to because we make the announcement. We make phone calls and send Text Messages and tell people, please vacate the premises because were going to attack the control in the same building as you. Its an absolute tragedy, but its absolutely at the responsibility of this organization, which is holding the people of gaza hostage. They are holding them hostage so they can strike us with inskrim nature rockets launched at our towns. As i was sitting in jerusalem, i was getting reports that the heart of israel, the center of israel is once again bombarded. I know that hamas has not been willing to engage in a ceasefire. Egypt had a proposal, and there are others from the u. N. Theres attempts to make them stop firing the rockets, and they have refused to do that. Lets talk about what Prime Minister netanyahu said to secretary kerry. He talked about pinpoint attacks that you were trying to really go after specific targets in gaza. Secretary kerry yesterday somewhat controversially in a comment caught when he thought he wasnt on camera, he seemed to ridicule the pinpoint attacks referring to them as, you know, theyre really not pinpoint at all. How do you respond to him . Well, as i said, we have a huge effort going on trying to strike the terrorists in their hiding places when theyre planning to carry out further attacks, and i would say, yes, we do have precision capabilities, extensive operational, extensive intelligence. We know where theyre hiding. We know where theyre going. I would also point out that when we feel that there is an unacceptable collateral damage, we cancel the mission. We might even phone up and tell the perpetrator that we are intending to strike the command and control position and give up on this terrorist. Well not strike him at that time just so to save human life. A spokesman for hamas military wing has claimed the troop has taken an israeli soldier captive. He added that he is a prisoner, and if zionists light about the dead and wounded, then the fate of this soldier is their responsibility. Again, the idf has denied the claim. Its also said that its being investigated. Has hamas captured an israeli soldier . Well, we cant confirm that at this time. As soon as we have a confirmation either way, we will make an announcement. Indeed, in the tragedy and in the gunfight of two nights ago, there was extensive damage, and it is difficult to determine at this time the status of this report. As soon as we can, we will make an announcement. At least seven more Israeli Soldiers were reported killed on monday, more than two dozen have been killed so far in this fighting. Thats more than israel has lost in the past in its struggles on the ground with hamas. What do you think how far are you going to go . Are you concerned that israeli Public Opinion will turn against you as more israelis die . The public do not want to live in a reality where there are threats of rockets, where there are threats of infiltration, where there are threats of these terrible acts of indiscriminate attacks. Today we had four People Killed inside israel, four soldiers killed inside israel. Indeed, it is a tragedy, but our job is to put ourselves there before the civilians, before the people and do that. If it means giving your life, that is what is expected of us. A very quick final question. Will you stop before you have taken care of all the tunnels . Well, you know, it would be difficult to say that we could expect to even erase 100 of these tunnels. We are trying to locate them. Were trying to deal with them. We are trying to explode them. And relieve us from this threat as quick as possible and as much as possible. To date, weve exposed 16 tunnels like this that lead into israel or are leading into israel or are at some stages of construction towards israel. We are determined to deal with this threat. Were not willing to wake up with them in our backyard. We want to meet them in their backyard and take away this capability. Israeli Defense Forces spokesman peter lerner. Thank you. For more im joined from the hague of the netherlands, senior fellow for palestine studies and coeditor of an independent online magazine produced by the arab studies institute. We saw the terrible deaths on monday at a hospital in gaza. We just talked to the Israel Defense spokesperson who said they were targeting nearby antitank missiles and he repeated that hamas is hiding munitions where people live. Is that not the case . These claims are routinely made by the Israeli Military and governme government, and theyre routinely examined by independent organizations, by human rights organizations. Theres a whole slew of United Nations reports with virtually now exception. Theyve been exposed as selfserving propaganda. I think all needs to look at the casualty figures according to the United Nations. Threequarters at least of the 550plus casualties are civilian noncombat tants. More than a quarter are children. So, i mean, at some point one has to seriously examine these preposterous claims and stop taking them at face value and demand verifiable evidence. You cant just make these claims and kill people by the dozen without providing any evidence. Last week didnt we see in one case where missiles were hidden at a u. N. School . Thats correct. The u. N. Rightfully condemned the placing of, i think they said, 20 missiles in a school. Its noteworthy that the same press release explicitly noted this was the first incident of its kind that the u. N. Had found. Basically meaning that all the previous claims that israel had made in that respect were absolutely groundless. The u. N. Also said it was an evacuated school. In other words, there was no question in this case of human shielding, of deliberately placing missiles in the Building Full of civilians and preventing those civilians from leaving. As you said, we have seen hundreds of palestinians who have been killed, thousands of others that have been injured. Israel was willing to accept a ceasefire days ago. Why has hamas refused and continued to fire rockets into israel . Well, hamas position is that this was an assault on the gaza strip that was initiated by israel. And that the background of this israeli assault on the gaza strip is the continuing blockade, siege, whatever you want to call it where palestinians in the gaza strip are basically prevented from living even a minimal, normal, dignified life in terms of import and export of essential goods in terms of passage of persons and so on. In terms of full israeli control of the territorial waters, the air space over gaza and so on. Therefore, hamas position is that while they dont reject a ceasefire in principle, that the ceasefire must also include guarantees for the lifting of the israeli blockade on the gaza strip. Clearly the israeli blockade has made life very difficult for gaza in many ways. But is this cynical on hamas part . Hamas has lost popularity by all accounts. Its been a terrible failure at governing. So is it just hoping to gain support in gaza and in the broader arab world by fighting israel . Well, whats interesting in the past two weeks is that hamas has actually gained support among palestinians in the gaza strip, among palestinians generally, by insisting that any ceasefire agreement must include a lifting the blockade. I think for many, particularly the gaza strip, its become a choice of, you know, a quick death by f16s versus a slow death by blockade. So, in fact, you know these issues you pointed out about hamas losing popularity and so on, this attack on the gaza strip has actually allowed hamas to pose in a much more as a much more national rather than factional actor. Do you think it could win an election at this point . Well, conventional wisdom is if elections were held today, hamas would win in the west bank, and haata would win in the gaza strip. Which is an ion yir because foug fatah is in charges of the west bank and hamas in gaza. Exactly. After this conflict and given that people tend to rally around those that seem to be actively resisting a Foreign Colonial power and sticking up for their interests, and also looking at the conduct of the palestinian authority, you know, things could change. I think, again, elections are very difficult to predict on the basis of developments just in the past week. Whats the role of the palestinian authority, of fatah . Can they get involved here and help lead to some sort of ceasefire . The problem is that each of these parties also wants to make sure that any agreement that is reached either doesnt weaken their own factional position or at least doesnt strengthen the factional position of the rival. This underscores once more the need for a much farther going reconciliation between fatah and hamas where there needs to be integration on the basis of the plo, the national movement, and more importantly on the basis of a Common National political program. Final question for you. World opinion in these conflicts in the past turns against the israelis fairly quickly, but many World Leaders have come out in favor of the israelis now and theres much less support for what hamas is doing than in the past. How do you see this playing out . Will we have an agreement soon, or will we keep seeing more people getting killed . I think you need to make a distinction, of course, between World Leaders and politicians, many of whom have taken a position on this issue that can only be described as come police city on the oned hand and Public Opinion on the other. There are all sorts of reports making the rountds now there may be an imminent breakthrough in reaching a new agreement. The problem for the palestinians is you having basically hundreds of people being slaughtered, and that is an unacceptably high price to pay for gaining the sympathy and support and the solidarity of the world, particularly when these are simply recurring israeli assaults on the gaza strip. Someone was saying the other day, anybody person in the gaza strip 6 years old will have experienced three israeli wars. A senior fellow at the institute for palestine studies. Pleasure to have you with us. Thank you. Thank you. Coming up, big developments in the Malaysian Airlines investigation involving the victims bodies and the black boxes. Also, britains Prime Minister warns the world is watching vladimir putt tin as he faces tougher sanctions from the west. And the crazy propaganda about the planes crash that moscow is feeding its people. Every saturday, Al Jazeera America brings you conversations you wont find anywhere else. Youre listening because you wanna see what happen. 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The bodies of 282 of the passengers who died on malaysian flight 17 are making their way home from the crash site after days of obstruction by prorussian separatists. The malaysian government says the two block boxes from the downed jet have now been handed over in good condition. The breakthrough came after furious World Leaders and grieving relatives of the victims demanded russian president Vladimir Putin use his influence to persuade the separatists to allow investigators full access to the site. On monday president obama asked why the site had been blocked and evidence tampered with. All of which begs the question, what exactly are they trying to hide . The president saved his harshest words for putin, warning graver consequences if his support for the separatists continues. Russia will only further isolate itself from the International Community and the costs will continue to increase. Putin said monday he supports full access to the site by investigators but warned that no nation should exploit the tragedy for political goals. Secretary of state john kerry and other diplomats have described the crisis as a moment of truth for the russian leader, who received searing messages from a sea of tribute flowers left at the airport in amsterdam for the 193 dutch victims of the crash. Joining us now for the latest via skype from Eastern Ukraine is harriet salem, a freelance journalist reporting for the guardian. She saw them ganl greater access to the crash site and was there for the transfer of victims remains to a train that will transport them to amsterdam. Good fov you with us. You were there when the bodies were loaded onto this train. I can only imagine it was an awful sight. How did it unfold . Well, the situation has been very, very difficult on the ground. The mh17 flight essentially crashed into a conflict zone, which has presented a lot of problems. The Emergency Service workers, firefighters, police officers, medics worked very hard. Two days ago we saw the first of the bodies being moved. They were transferred to a refrigerated carriage, train carriage in three carriages. They were there while more bodies were collected and moved. The situation at the crash site is now very different. Human remains are gone, but personal possessions that belonged to the victims have been piled at the side of the road, many of them. There was a hope that these will be returned to the families in the upcoming days. The good news that came today was that train with these human remains on them has finally left. It has moved, and as you said, hopefully onwards from there to the netherlands. Other good news is that the rebels handed over the black boxes. Again, a small improvement. Is an independent investigation, do you feel, starting to come together there . Reporter well, the access to the site has certainly improved over the last few days. When they first tried to access the site, they were given very partial access, a warning shot was fired and that was very concerning that people did not have this full access. You wrote today that part of the problem was actually the Ukrainian Army that seemed intent on disrupting some of the expert work on monday. How did that happen . Reporter the Ukrainian Army . Today the situation was that they were fighting across the region. There was an assault that appeared to take place at donetsk airport and the train station today. It was very unclear about exactly how that erupted. But across the region fighting is continuing to spark the tragedy of mh17, and this is limiting International Experts ability to come to the site and do the job they need to do. We need to see cooperation from both sides, not only from the rebels but also from the Ukrainian Army in allows safe passage for these experts to move into the area. They need to be given full access to the site to continue their work. Its a terrible tragedy made worse by the people there. Harriet salem, pleasure to have you with us. Thank you. For more were joined by ambassador roman pupaduke who was the first ambassador to the ukraine after the breakup of the union. Hes currently a principal at bingham consulting. Hes in washington, d. C. As is ambassador kurt volge voelker. Ambassador, i start with you. President obama warned Vladimir Putin its time to get serious about reining in the rebels and resolving the ukraine conflict or else. The uk is push the eu for tougher sanctions. The u. N. Security Council Approved a resolution for around International Investigation and an end to the fighting around the site. As the u kuks David Cameron pu it, the world is watching and putin must change his course. Do you think this will change putins aggressive stance in ukraine . No, i dont think its going to change this at all. It will cause him to change tactics a little bit. He needs to demonstrate hes trying to be cooperative and wants to create an image of himself and russia and the insurgents inside ukraine suggesting they have nothing to do with what those insurgents are up to. I dont think its incredible, but the attack is on. He will try to help this investigation proceed now that they have a few days to remove the vehicles that fired the missiles to remove evidence that points to the insurgency so it can remain an unknown. Meanwhile, his objectives of disrupting the government of ukraine and trooifing to assert russian control over time will continue. Ambassador, do you agree with every day that passes world Public Opinion is screaming that putin has blood on his hands, australia raised the prospect of banning him from the group of 20 of the worlds most powerful nations. What is putins end game . Le well, putins end game is very clear from the outset. Hes trying to destabilize all of ukraine. He zeroed in on Eastern Ukraine because he doesnt garner the type of support throughout the rest of the country as hes solicited in Eastern Ukraine. Right now hes trying to destabilize the country as much as possible to get a negotiating process started between the government and the rebels and reach a situation where the rebels will be able to carve out a greater sense of autonomy and freedom in that part of ukraine, which will give him a Strong Influence in not only that particular region of ukraine but in also of ukraine. In other words, to continue the destabilization both politically and economically in ukraine. Irng thats his overall goal and the tragedy of the mh17 has created a new scenario in which the International Community as we have seen over the past few days has become very involved in zeroing in on whats going on in that part of ukraine and in that region. I think theres a chance here to move toward a more positive outcome with the International Community taking the forefront in terms of greater pressure against russia. Thats the question. What will the International Community do . Europe has always had the greatest leverage on russia but hasnt been willing to go as far as the u. S. Has. Theyre threatening new sanctions as soon as tuesday. Do you think europe will take a harder line even though this risks hurting their economies . First off, i think europe should. I think what were seeing here is evidence of how when you leave a problem unaddressed can get worse and worse and worse. Weve seen now this disaster the result of inaction over the past few months. That being said, i think what putin is trying to do is show enough coops right now including with the investigation with the u. N. Vote and so forth it will give a justification to those in the eu who dont want to impose sanctions for their own reasons, and theyll use that argument to try to prevent the eu from making that decision on tuesday. I suspect what were going to see, although i hope im wrong, is another threat from the eu. That if russia does not continue to cooperate, then they will look at further sanctions, but not to take that step right now. Instead i believe what is needed is tough action now to cause russia to want to negotiate a way forward. Otherwise, i think it will play for time, and then it will go back to business as usual. As sanctions do increase, assuming that europe goes a little further than just a threat, wont this affect at what point does it start affecting putins popularity internally in russia . At least the u. S. Sanctions must be taking a bite out of his popularity. It depends on the type and the extent of the sanctions. Right now if the europeans and the United States move towards introducing broader secretarial sanctions in terms of Energy Sector as well as the financial sector, two sectors talked about, that will have great ramifications throughout the russian economy. You have to stand back and take a look at the situation in context. They want to think they run a type of government. There are a lot of divisions within the government. Theres a strong nation proDemocracy Movement taking place in russia, and you should not also forget that one of the main reasons why putin has been so hard on trying to kill the Democracy Movement in ukraine by destabilizing the country is his fear it will have ramifications or reverberate back into russia itself and give stimulus and encouragement to the proDemocracy Movement in his own country. Putin unleashed a lot of issues within his own country the world hasnt focused on yet. The proDemocracy Movement and the split in the movement and in terms of how to proceed on the issue of ukraine. These are all issues that will come back and bite him in the long term. Also unleashed issues internationally. According to a new article in the new yorker published online on friday, Vice President biden met with pet tun in 2011. Im looking into your eyes and said i dont think we have a soul. He looked back at me and smiled and said, we understand one another. I think these have changed a lot since the cold war, but much of the behavior is reminiscent of the world we lived in then. I agree with that and agree with what the ambassador said about putins overall objectives and theyre not going to change. Putin came into office in early 2000 talking about restoring russian greatness and talked about the collapse of the soviet union as being the greatest tragedy of the 20th century. I think hes intent on restoring russian power domestically including the authoritarian style of state he created, to have a say over russias neighbors, particularly those part of the soefrt union and to restore russias strength on a global stage. Hes been going about that emphatically. What we heard from Vice President biden is a little bit of domestic politics in the u. S. Pointing out hes not naive in looking at russia, even though theres other criticisms of the administration to suggest when they were carrying out the recent policy, it was a bit naive. Referring back to president bush who thought he had seen into putins soul. Ambassador, final question to you. Do you agree with ambassador volker . How close are we getting to the old soviet model with the way putin is behaving both domestically and internationally . Well, i think ambassador volker outlined it clear. I would make a distinction however. I would not lump putin and russia as one huge conglomerate. I think this is a put putinpersonality driven type of policy. If you look at the recent polling, the it indicates that his popularity as that crisis keeps going on is starts to decrease. So i would make a distinction between putin the leader and the russian people. Right now what you have is putin the leader trying to recreate a sense of the Old Soviet Union of the soras empire, which is personalitybased, but i dont think thats something that the russian people themselves are really pushing for. Ambassadors, its really a pleasure to have you with us as always. Thank you. With Malaysian Airlines suffering two major tragedies in four months, will it survive, and what will it have to pay the families of the victims . The network of tunnels under the gaza border that have proven deadly for soldiers. How was hamas able to build them in the first place . Were tracking the top stories on the web. In the narrative we hear most often about israelis and palestinians is they dont get along. People on both sides are using social media to paint a very different picture. Ill tell you more coming up. While youre watching, let us know what you think. Join the conversation were having on the show by tweeting to us ajconsiderthis or share your thoughts on our facebook page. Two groups of hamas fighters attacked inside israel on monday after using passages dug underneath the border. Ten Palestinian Militants were killed in the attacks, but so were four Israeli Soldiers. Now the primary goal of israels assault on gaza is to destroy these socalled terror tunnels. Our goal is to end the terror attacks from gaza to israel. There shouldnt be rockets fired on our citizens and they shouldnt infiltrate slew the tunnels. Just this morning two squads cam through tunnels and tried to attack two different areas where civilians are trying to conduct their daily lives. How is hamas able to build the tunnels and will israel be able to do anything to stop more from being dug under the fence that separates it from sgaz. Joining us is dan who has reported extensively from the middle east including stories on gazas tunnels. Good of you to join us. In the first two days of the ground offensive in gaza, Israeli Forces discovered more than 46 entrances to 14 different major tunnels. The number has risen since then. Hamas is arguing that the extent of the tunnels alleged by the israelis is not true. How widespread is that Tunnel Network between gaza, do you believe . Its hard to know. I mean, as you point out, hamas says, no, and israel says yes. Im not sure i would necessarily believe either side on this. Its clear there are many tunnels. I think some of the pictures the israelis have put out are convincing, and its quite natural that hamas wants an offensive capability, even if its limited, into israel to try to even up the odds a little bit. Now, the idf spokesman we spoke to earlier in the show today us that he doesnt believe the israeli army can find all the tunnels that are out there. You know, its not in the largest area there. Hamas and gaza is smaller than new york city. So why is it so hard to find these things . Well, i think theres one problem that clearly theres some tunnels going under the border into israel proper. There is also, i suspect now, an extensive bunkering and tunnels network in Populated Areas like gaza city, some of the refugee camps in gaza strip that are both for the military tactical uses of hamas that are escape routes for leadership, that are places to hide, that are rudimentary bomb shelters, if you will. To go in and find those sorts of things would require, i suspect, a very serious grounds campaign in which israel would take very, very serious casualties when they tonight want to do. As for the ones under the tunnel, youre right that gaza isnt the biggest place in the world, but this is a population of people who have been honing their skills at clandestine tunnels for many, many years now. They have gotten quite good at it. Theyre built by the brick guyeds as part of hamas military. Reportedly very elaborate with multiple branches. Why is the israeli army going into gaza to find the tunnel entrances . Sometimes they go miles into neighborhoods to do this. They say some tunnel are booby trapped. Cant they find them on the exits on the israeli side . I mean, i think theres a couple of reasons. Yes, they can find the exits and work back. As you see, theres fears of booby traps. I also suspect Going Forward if they really do see this as the serious threat theyre claiming that theyre going to want to push people back further away from the fence than they have been so far to make this a more difficult exercise that has to go longer distances because youre absolutely right that things are coming out on the israeli side. They can find them there. One more thing ill say is that its quite common to build a tunnel in these sorts of situations where you know its 80 done. Then youre saying you have the last little bit of work for when you really want to use it, and thats when you cross under the border. Now israel for a while has blockaded Construction Materials from going into gaza. So one of the questions is, how do they keep getting built without cement and other materials . Also, how does gaza afford this . Some of these tunnels cost 1 million apiece and theres a per capita income of not much more than 1,000 . Theres a couple of things at play. The israeli economic blockade, you know, over the past three, four, five years has pulsed. They tighten up and relax. They tighten up. Theres periods where more things get through quoteunquote legitimately. Until fairly recently also the smuggling tunnels near rafa under the border with the sinai peninsula, with egypt were going great funs bringing in Construction Materials, food, cigarettes and also bringing in weapons. So there were ways to get things. As to why so much money would be spent on these things and as you point out a relatively i am pov riched area, ij because of hamas that pretty much runs the gaza strip, they see having a defensive capability and some ability to strike out as an important issue for their movement and ultimately what they hope to achieve. They feel probably that if they were toothless that they would be ripe for the picking, that they would be assassinated more frequently and perhaps israeli insurgents, which they wouldnt have to fear, perhaps a Tunnel Network and prepare defenders, would be more frequent and more effective. Thats another fascinating and dangerous aside to this tragedy thats going on there in israel and gaza. Dan murphy, pleasure to have you with us. Thank you. Time to see whats trending on the web. As the violence in the middle east continues, there are growing effortses on social media to find Common Ground between israelis and palestinians. Last week we had a psa showing people on both sides that lost loved ones to the conflict. Their message is we want peace. Dont want others to suffer like we have. This week a hashtag is trending. Interfaith couples, families and friends call for piece between the two groups using the je the jewsandisraelisrefusetobe enemies. Claire shares this photo of her holding a sign says, whatever we suffer, hate makes it worse. Journalist anderson who is halflebanese kisses her new wish boyfriend and writing love doesnt speak the language of occupation. This adorable photo of a palestinian boy and jewish boy shaking hands is getting a lot of love online. The hashtag was started by two friends from Hunter College in new york one. One an israeli and the other a syrian. They dont always see eye to eye, but it was important to them to diffuse the hate encited by jews and arabs. A refreshing counternarrative to the violence on the ground. It is. Coming up, russias dr. Strangelove reaction to the tragedy in ukraine. Malaysian Airlines Faces a tough road ahead after two major tragedies this year. The data guide is next. 15 stories one incredible journey edge of eighteen coming september only on Al Jazeera America israels invasion of gaza continues tonight. We have been hearing a lot of tank shelling coming from where we are, here. Every single one of these buildings shook violently. For continuing coverage of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, stay with Al Jazeera America, your global news leader. Today we look at the turbulence surrounding Malaysian Airlines. Two tragedy tlepten the future. The disaster in ukraine as the airline has no idea what happened to flight 370 that disappeared on its way to beijing from kuala lumpur. The airline was already in trouble posting financial losses totaling more than 1. 3 billion the last three years. Theyre currently losing a reported 1 1 1. 6 million day. Now they say they pay 50,000 to the families of each victim. Thats the minimum. The home countries could demand payouts to their families leading to high sixfigure costs per victim. When you group the liabilities with the loss of the plane, the airline could lose more than a billion dollars. Twa went out of business soon after flight 800 crashed nearly two decades ago. Pan am went bankrupt three years after the flight 103 bombing in lockerbie, scotland. Both companies are major Financial Issues before the tragedies. Ironically Malaysian Airlines had won more than 1100 100 awards for excellence over the last few years. This is a reminder of the days of soviet propaganda. Al jazzera america presents. On Al Jazeera America the story surrounds the shooting down of Malaysian Airline flight 17 reported by russias media are sharply different than what the rest of the world is hearing. In fact, so different that most russians would have no idea that russian separatists are believed responsible. The propoganda blames ukraine, Malaysian Airlines and a throwback to the days of the cold war. One russian reports suggests its a vast american conspiracy to provoke a war with russia. Joining me now is linda kinsler. Linda, great to have you with us. You and the magazine have looked at all this. Lets start with the Russian Media itself. At this point how much of it is free and how much is controlled by the government . Le with, in the past few months weve seen a marked increase in the kremlins efforts to crack down on the media throughout russia. Weve seen a number of essentially government takeovers of newspapers mostly and also some television stations. Theres one television station in russia, which is legitimately independent they have been on the brink of shutting down for many months. They lost all the funding and advertisers. Weve seen several highprofile takeovers when the kremlin basically puts some of their own former operatives in the editorships of prominent newspapers. Its one of the most dangerous places in the world fwor journalists. Even what independent media exists needs to be careful. Yes, exactly. Its one of the most dangerous places for journalists to operate. Many journalists say theyre done with reporting in moscow and leaving the country. These reports are outlandish. One suggested that the plane was the same one, the same Malaysian Airlines flight that disappeared earlier this year and that it was recovered and that it took off with dead bodies in it and then blown up over ukraine. Where do these reports come from . Well, some of them start out on the internet. Some of them are being reported by the mainstream media, like russia today or the first channel, which is kremlinowned. What were seeing a feedback loop between these kind of internet rumors that get started and what the kremlincontrolled media is coming out with. Some of that is the ukrainians fired the rocket and mistook flight 17 for putins private jet. Theyre feeding off of each other coming from the direction on high that russian must deflect any kind of culpability. Taking about on high, on monday russian generals held a press briefing to present their side of the story to use maps and radar imagery. It looked like something out of mr. Strangelove. At one appoint she suggested the u. S. Shot down the plane. It feels like were back 40 years ago in the middle of the cold war. Are the russian people really believing all of this . Reporter in fact several positives suggest that what the media is reporting in russia, there was recently a poll and interfax that said 70 of russians think that its okay to for Media Outlets to manipulate the truth. Many of them dont know it would be misconstrued as propoganda, the Human Element of this catastrophe is really not being reported within russia. There are some rumors that the passports of the passengers were brandnew, and they had just been issued that they were faked and planted on the plane. So within russia it does very much seem like the kremlin line is the popular one. Lets play a clip of an interview that shows pretty much what youre saying. So these women bringing up what you brought up that it could have been they were trying to shoot putins plane down and the americans were responsible, in this day and age of the internet, how can the russians not have access to more information that debunks all of this . Reporter well, even the internet in russia is extremely controlled and has become markedly more so in the past year and past several months. Just last year the kremlin said any bloggers operating in the russian language, not even necessarily within russia, would be subject the to kremlin oversight and formally register with the state. Its not as if within russia there are ample independent news sources for people to turn to. Even on the internet. I guess the poll shows most russians get their news from television overwhelming and not from the internet. Linda kinsler, great to have you with us to take a look at this very odd aspect of this tragic story. Thank you. Thats all for now, but the conversation continues on our website aljazeera. Com considerthis or on our facebook or google plus pages and you can find us on twitter ajconsiderthis. See you next time. Hi everyone, this is Al Jazeera America. Im John Siegenthaler in new york. The black boxes critical in the investigation into flight 17. Tonight prorussian separatists have finally handed them over. Well have information from the crash site and washington. Push for peace. Secretary of state john kerry in cairo tonight trying to broker a deal between israel and hamas as the debt toll mounts on both sides. In custody death, a suspect dice after an officer puts him