Waj is out, she is bringing in all of your feedback and speaking of feed bark its been interesting, because i think a lot of our viewers have the same experience we did, which was initially we werent really sure what the Sovereign Citizens Movement was. Exactly. A lot of responses that we got from our community pointed to that fact. But hearing a little bit about it, you could see them react pretty quickly in to existing deeply rooted divisions, ill give you an example here, james cole wrote in they can be antigovernment all they want. But dont come to my door expecting me to be to do the same. Brendon says anything that fights this government is good. And j. D. , but why . I dont understand the Second Amendment says we have the right to form a wellarmed militia. This is a basic right, why consider them terrorists . These are questions you often hear debated this question of sovereign citizens is really bringing that out. You may not have heard of the Sovereign Citizens Movement but you probably know about some of the attacks experts say their ideology has inspired. Like the 1995 Oklahoma City bombings and the 2010 austin, texas Suicide Attack when a man intentionally crashed his singleengine aircraft in in to a building housing an irs field offers. In yes represent months isolated incidents of shootings by those associated with the movement. Who experts say are antigovernment, believe they are above the law and often violent against Law Enforcement officials. In a new study the National Consortium for the study of terrorism and response to his terrorism surveyed officials from 175 Law Enforcement organizations across the country. And they found that sovereign citizens are the topped perceived domestic Terror Threat. Beating out 16 other designated groupings, including what the study called islamic extremists, neo nazis and extreme environmental assists. So what more do we know about the is off sen Citizens Movement . And what is being done, if anything, to curb their activity . Joining us from springfield, missouri is retired police chief robert potter. The former police chief of west memphis department. His son was killed by a safe sovereign sit set in 2010 and trains around the country. And joining us alfred a spokesperson for the sovereign citizen movement. Thanks to all of you for being here, alfred, you have been associateed with the movement for 29 years. Who are the i sovereign citizen. Thats not true. And what is their ideology. Thats not true. First off, i am not ware of any movement. There is no organization of the people that are studying the concept of sovereignty. They are talking about, oh, my gosh we have a movement. What they are looking for in, my opinion, is to create a new boogie man. Alfred, its a looselyformed organization of people who identify, self identify offense as sovereign citizens. Who are these people . Whais there a Common Thread betn them . Yeah, i say there is a Common Thread. They are inclined to read and to write the ones that are truly sovereign. There are a bunch of people claiming to be sovereigns that dont know how to spell the word. They are not sovereigns they are anarchists and dont understand the difference, there are two different strains. What keeps im people in the sovereignty movement. They are concerned about traffic tickets, Divorce Court laws, losing their homes to foreclosure. Concerned about the government shipping our jobs to china and allowing and even encouraging illegal alien to his come in to this country and they are trying to study and learn why is this happening and how can this be . And as you study, it will take you back to fundamentals. And the fundamentals bring you back to the declaration of independence was just the basis for safe remember at this in this country. There is more than studying and learning going on it seems. Well get back to that in a minute. Ryan talk about the group more. They are loosely organized. Dont call themselves a group. Any sense of how many people are associated with it . Well, we have estimated in the neighborhood of 300,000 people in the country are probably sovereign citizens or identify or self identify somewhere under that ideology. I think alfred is somewhat incorrect in saying that it is not a group. I mean, while it is an ideology, there are certainty sovereign groups across the country who are organized and formed themselves in to be established organizations. You know, for example, the just last year, over the course of the last four years, there was a very large group called the republic for the United States of america. Which was a group formed by a collection of sovereign citizens in southern alabama and over the course of three years, they have managed to build or at least move make massive strives towards building the institutions of the federal government. So that when the federal government fell by being overthrown or collapsed, they could step up and form the government of this country. Ryan, i want to pause it there for a second. Can you give us a sense of what the main beliefs are, what the main ideologies are associated with this group. Sure. Sovereign citizens, ultimately, believe that they, not any institution of government, decide what laws are valid and what laws they can they will follow. It is an idea or ideology that at its core believes that the federal government, as it exists today, is ultimately works to enslave u. S. Citizens. Puts them in a state of financial burden and basically collect money off their backs. And, you know, what alfred said just a moment ago a group of people that read and write. Yes, they do write quite a lot of Court Documents and they do read quite a lot of historical legal readings. However, the sovereign citizen ideology is an ideology that dives deep, once you start going down that rabbit hole you are in a world of complete wild fantastic conspiracy their. I have heard sovereign citizens say the federal government has trees with alien nations. I have heard sovereign citizens say that they have determined cures for cancer and leukemia. And i have heard sovereign citizens say that the federal government are trying to reoccupy is this mythical institution that was abandoned, you know, after the civil war. Its just a thousand different ways. Chief potter, you know, until may 2010, you didnt know much about this movement. That day you tragically lost your son to the actions of a sovereign citizen. If its okay with you, we have a clip of what happened that i would like to show. Are you okay with that, chief . Sure. All right. Oh, yes, absolutely. For on you viewers its a little confusing, you will be hearing the voice of a truck driver witness and his 911 call and youll be looking at dash cam have video from the offices patrol car, take a look. Chief potter, walk us through what happened. How was your son and the other officer so caught off guard in this situation . Well, my son, brandon and the other officer is bill evans, were working the interstate that day and they stopped a white van occupied by jerry and joe cane a father and son from ohio, and they happened to be sovereign citizens and we had never heard of sovereign sit sense before that date. Many in Law Enforcement had never heard is off sen citizens. We knew about freeman of the land and things lake that. Like that. They thought this was a normal traffic stop . They did think it was a normal traffic stop and they thought that jerry cane was a pastor, he had a bible in the car, he had scriptures from the bible and they just and the license plate was registered to a church in ohio. So they felt that they had stopped a father and son going around the country preaching the gospel to those in this country. When in reality they are now as they were labeled domestic terrorists. Why do you think sovereign citizens are now being considered the top domestic Terror Threat . Well, i think it stemmed from the shooting in may of 2010. And they now meet the criteria for what the fbi says are domestic terrorists. They pose a danger to those in this country that commit either federal or state crimes. They are a threat to most that they come in contact with. So in the beginning, the reason they werent classified as domestic terrorists, they were under the white collar section of the fbi and the statutes the federal statutes. They were listed as domestic terrorists since the shooting it has changed now they are listed as White Collar Crime and domestic terrorists too. I know he would probably disagree with that, but thats interesting. Alfred, what do you think about that title . Domestic terrorists . I think its absurd, according to fbi they can identify six individuals who have been shot by people who claim to be sovereign citizens since 2000. Thats sick people in 14 years. In 2012, the Police Officers of the United States killed 409 americans. Right now what that means is that you are 800 times more likely to be shot by the chief than you are by me. And hes saying watch out for al, hes dangerous. Listen, the ratio of people when sovereign poverty law centers says there are 300,000 sovereign citizens. My understanding is that the normal rate of homicide in this country is 14 onto 17 per 100,000. If there is 300,000 of us we could be i dont think knocking off, if we are as dangerous as the average american we could be knocking off 45 people a year. We dont. Alfred i want to break in and point out comments that we have from jason, if i may. This comment says as a prosecutor i run in to three or four every year. So this is one prosecutor and he says he runs in to that many. Chief bob, what do you think is the scale of which, how many prosecutions are there . How often do we see this occur . Well, its increasing. On my travels around the country in the beginning there were very few that had heard of sovereigns. And now everywhere i go, prosecutors, federal and state, are dealing with sovereign citizens. [speaking at the same time] are they killing them over traffic tickets. Sir, i didnt hear. You they are claiming to be sovereign citizens and they are going in on a traffic ticket beabeef or a Child Support beefr Something Like that. How many are they bringing in for violence . Well, ill agree. And i want to make it clear that all sovereigns are not extremists, they are all not killers, that is a very lower percentage of them. As i said yesterday, talking to someone, i agree with a lot of what the sovereigns talk about. The federal government is too involved in our business. I certainly agree with that. Where i disagree is when they are shooting Police Officers they dont even know. I understand what has happened. There is a what i have found in my research and my travels is that the more encounters sovereigns have with how enforcement the more dangerous they become. And that was certainly the case in the canes that had been stopped numerous times around the country and arrested and never had anything in the car. Nothing. No illegal weapons, no drugs, anything. They were arrested in new mexico, spent two days in jail. He gets out, he goes straight to phoenix, buys an ak47 and now traveling the country with an ak47 several hundred rounds of ammunition and smoking dope. Why did he do that . Why did he feel comfortable at doing that . Because he knew the next encounter with Law Enforcement, that there was going to be a shootout. So us, you know, many sovereigni certainly understand what they are saying, what they are doing. Many in the country feel the same way they do. But they are not willing to give up paying taxes. Not willing they are still abiding by the laws of the country. We are going take a quick pause here, chief, the Sovereign Citizens Movement deploys a lot of tactic to his turn the table on his government. Up next, its called paper terrorism and its one of the ways that some sovereign citizens exact intimidation. Later the ku klux klan has been around for hundreds of years are they trying to capitalize on the growings racial tensions in america . I am bob, chief the police department, my officers bill and my son brandon didnt realize there were people at war with this country that are not international terrorists. Welcome back, we are discussing the is off venture Citizens Movement and a newed study classifies it as the nations top security threat. Those in the movement believe that all governments in the u. S. As illegitimate and are not subject to statutes and legal proceedings. Ryan, why sovereign citizens is loosely based, its more organized than simply americans with antigovernment views. Can you talk about some of the tactics that are typically deployed to demonstrate sovereign Citizen Values . Sure. I mean, i think the primary tactic is, you know, what is called paper terrorism. These are instances where sovereign citizens will file court paperwork, which is often retaliatory or vengeful, to exact grievances. Exact revenge for griev grievan, they frequently put leans on properties. In alabama, for example, in birmingham sovereign citizens tried to put leans on the county courthouse there which is a 200yearold building or whatever. So, you know, the paper terrorist is one. But also just the idea that they do not have to answer to Law Enforcement. If i can say quickly best break there was some discussion about whether, you know, about gauging the danger posed by the sovereign citizen ideology. It doesnt have to be mesh nerd a body count. This is an ideology that does not believe in the rule of law as it exists in this country. Thats not true. Thats not true. I want to jump in here and ask. Struck by this video i saw of a man named Anthony Williams who calls himself a sovereign police officer. Lets have a watch. Today is my First Official day as a sovereign peace officer. See, i got my badge. I got my handcuffs. And i got my common law citation in my vehicle. Alfred, how common is that . Thats the first i have heard of it. But you can find people who are off you know, there are people that do crazy things in any group you want to point to. You can find them on the dallas cowboys, you can find them in the Police Departments and you can find them who claim to be sovereigns. Its not an indication of its not what everybody is doing. And to my knowledge thats the first one. But i would like to the man from sound poverty lawsuit says paper terrorism. Ryan. Look, how terrifying can it be to send some paper in to a court . Would you rather people shoot, set off bombs . For god sake these people do you have any idea how much work goes in to trying to learn enough where you can file a credible lawsuit. I dont think anybody is arguing with the idea of filing legitimate paperwork. I think the problem is that it appears to be used as an intimidation tactic where hundreds of millions or billions of dollars in leans, false leans are filed against Public Officials to intimidate that, are you okay with that . Are you okay with the idea that a man who commits a relatively minor crime can go to court and be sentenced to an extensive sentence based on the idea that this is good for deterrence . We are going to scare the rest of the dummies in to obeying the law because we are going to ruin one mans life for whats relatively minor offense. The whole concept of deterrence perpetrated by the government against the people is retaliatory and venge. Thats fine, but inning. Are you okay with the level targeted against government and Law Enforcement officials. I am not interested in intimidating but am interesting in a dialogue where people can get to the what is the common denominator here, where are we. All right . When we talk about the world paper terrorism. People who write court cases are terrorists . Its bias, its on propaganda. Its not trying to resolve the situation its a way of saying forget that. Dont pay any attention to the those people think they are filing court cases against the government they must be crazy. This government has very nearly collapsed our economy. We are the biggest debtor nation in. World and people are saying we have to defends the government. I want to get the chief back in. Since your sons murder you have dedicated your life to educating Law Enforcement officers about a group of a slice of the is off sen citizens who are perceived to be dangerous. Talk to me about what you are doing in terms of education and curbing the activities of this violent sect. I am just trying to educate officers around the country about the dangers they pose when they confront sovereigns. Not all sovereigns, but some. And we cant identify those that are the extremists. And as he says, there are those wildcards and crazy ones in any group that you have. But i am convinced if Law Enforcement is aware of their tactics, then it will save lives. Brandon and bill had no idea who sovereigns remember. They had no idea they were dangerous, they felt they were dealing with a church group, a father and son from a church. Their guard was down. Had they had the information that we were passing out today in educating officers with, i am convinced that they would be alive. But thats behind us. There is nothing that we can do with that. There is something that we can do with the officers now is to give them the information that sovereigns have said that Law Enforcement is their enemy. All right. And they have many around the country has deemed us as their enemies. Some sovereigns. Some sovereigns may have said that. All right on that note thanks for our guests retired police chief robert and alfred. Ryan, you are going stay with us. In the last at the point years more americans have died on u. S. Soil by attacks from violent far right groups, including White Supremacists than those inspired by al qaeda. White power coming up neck, hear interest some of the new strategie stratd rebranding efforts these gripes are use to go gain more followers. And can and should the government be doing more to curb their recruitment . Welcome back. We mentioned before the break that there have been more attacks on americans in the past decade by violent far right groups including White Supremacists than by individuals inspired by al qaeda. If that sounded troubling, listen to this. Just in the last six months people across the country have been reportedly finding bags of candy with fliers urging them to join the ku klux klan. Some say the kkk is stepping up recruitment in the wake of events that increase racial tension in america like the shooting of Michael Brown in ferguson, mo joining us now is an anti hate and antiracist singer. And ryan is still with us. So ryan, we have seen a recent surge in some of these attacks associated with white sue friend is a, a shooting at a aish community served, a shooting at a jewish nursing home where another person is killed. Is there a revival right now in the White Supremacy movement . Absolutely. Hate groups from the racist right have been climbing steadily. Last year they shrunk slightly. But without a doubt they are on a rise. There are reasons for this. We believe that these groups are growing as a result of changing demographics in the country. A discomfort in that reality. There is data to back that up. All study that looked at deadly attacks and looked at what they called deadly jihadist attacks had killed 29 people since 9 11. And right wing other tacks killed 3070 when i shared in information online, you can take a look at some of the different kind of shootings that they included in these dead are you attacks. We got questions about the labels being used. Deadly right wing attack. What is meant by right wing extremists and who is involved in this. And it made me, as i went back to the foundation and asked th them. They code right wing as individuals rooted in antigovernment movement. And i want to ask you, are there do you take our community has taken issue with this, what do you think about that . I think the label that you used describe thing the radical right is quite accurate. These are groups that dont hold the government in any state of validity that denigrate groups of people based on characteristics like skin color, race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality. So i think its quite clear what domestic extremism is. David, you were inspired to use humor after a kkk rally. It was a creative response on behalf of some activists in knoxville, tennessee, who were environmental activists with a group called mountain justice that formed up a group called the could you klutz clowns to meet the kkk when they came to town. Rather than meeting hatred with hatred or saying ignore them, they chose to be presents but to transform the energy of the event in a way that really denied the kkk what they came for. But didnt just add fuel to the fire. Its interesting that you are using some innovative techniques to combat racism and hatred. You know, its clear from the recent events that the kkk is trying to get in touch with kids. Do you think thats where racism starts . Well, i think its extremely important to reach out to the kids. These problems are long in the making and they are generally long in the solution. But i really think its incumbent upon all of us to reach out to each other as adults and children. The best defense against bigotry is forming a community thats Strong Enough to withstand it. We have 32nd left in the show. I know you acknowledge that its tough to talk to kids about bigotry and hatred think but how important is that conversation . Its massively important. And i think humor is a good way in. The clowns in knoxville went to a white power rally and threw white flour and joined the rally facetiously, it was extremely effective. It gives us a way to teach kids about nonviolence. And you have Award Winning songs and performances that you have all over the world that incorporate your message. You are quite an inspiration, thank you to all of our guests today. Including david and ryan. Until next time, we will see you online at aljazerra. Com a jamstream. The fight against isil means a fight over iraqs oil, a leader asked for help. We are live in doha. New questions about nigerias deal, again the release of those capture school girls. Pair olympian is sentenced for i killing the governments fro