Transcripts For BBCNEWS Dateline London 20161224

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review edition. what a year it has been. trump was that victory, the rise of populist movements, the migrant crisis, wars across the middle east and the possibly of a new cold war in europe. our top team area new cold war in europe. our top team are a russian writer and former kremlin adviser, janet daley of the sunday telegraph, an iraqi journalist and thomas. in britain across europe and in the united states it has been eightjewish year. the brexit vote, donald trump's factory, political turmoil in france, and elsewhere. all have shown countries divided within themselves. scotland, post—industrial areas of northern even though the prosperous parts of london at times appeared to regard each other as incompetence of of. trump and clinton voters often seem to belong not just trump and clinton voters often seem to belong notjust to different states but different visions of the united states. how significant has 2016 bean in terms of these major political events? the deep divisions between so—called populist movements and their critics. i mean, that has been the story of maize to the big democracies. really big divisions. your word, democracies. really big divisions. yourword, incomprehensible. clinton's word, despicable might be more to the point. deplorable. at irredeemable, she used. there is something in common in all these, the populist movements in europe, and the divisions in america. and that is a sense that a huge swathes of the population, the majority in the case of the united states in electoral terms anyway, feels that they are completely left out of the discussion. they are left out of the discussion. they are left out of the dialogue and this is a much bigger problem thanjust out of the dialogue and this is a much bigger problem than just the immediate electoral consequences. this is a post—industrial problem. the people who have been left behind by the globalisation of the economy and particularly the globalisation of labour, which is to say nomadic tribes. particularly young potential employment moving around the world at the bs top global interest has left indigenous populations, working—class populations feeling com pletely working—class populations feeling completely unrepresented. it isa completely unrepresented. it is a story of 2016 but it has beenin it is a story of 2016 but it has been in the making for decades. and we have not noticed it. for decades and more acutely in the making since the financial crisis which i shared in an era of posterity which made those left out a few even more left out. part of the social cleavage has to do with the social cleavage has to do with the economy. people feel... it was called the left out millions. i came across an unsettling statistic the other day. the american ceos in 1965 as much as 20 times as much of their average employee but now it is 296 times. if you look at it from a productivity point view, productivity point view, productivity since 48 grew by 96% and wages went up similarly. what activities and 1973 has gone up to a lot more and wages have only increased by 11%. there is a big discrepancy. economic fortunes, which people rise up against. it is to do with the importing of cheap labour and the availability of cheap labour and the availability of cheap labour. i can see a political solution to that. partly it is automation. there was a statistic also that in the us, of the jobs that were lost, four out of five were due to alternation. rather than cheap labour. unfortunately, very few people talk about that because nobody wants to push back against technological advances and you can understand why. this will continue to increase as long as we don't hold companies to account. and rather say, yes, we have issues to do with migration and ships, but it is to do with technological advancement and the way the economy is changing. cheap labour and robots and the indigenous working classes of these countries have been squeezed out. we will see uber uber rise. the drivers may lose theirjobs within a decade. they have said they are looking at automatic cars in san francisco. i wa nt automatic cars in san francisco. i want to go back to the idea of populism. an mp was killed in the uk in broad daylight. the first time since 1990. and i think because we are based out of london the reflection about the violence towards populism, think it is a good thing that people feel that they can use thing that people feel that they can use elections to make their voice heard. because if they cannot, they will resort to violent means. and i really do think this was a turning point in the case of the uk in 2016, we've had an mp killed. and the year of terrorism in various ways. in terms of populism, that is also going to be the story of next year, isn't it? i think, first of all, that this year will be remembered for the deep crisis of liberalism which came to a head. we are witnessing the crumbling of neoliberalism and all the consequences, cultural, economic, fiscal, everything. and when we talk about the economy, we've entered the stage of virtual economy. at this stage is not accepted economy. at this stage is not a cce pted by economy. at this stage is not accepted by people. you were talking about uber. uber is a virtual economy company. it does not create, it destroys. the people have rebelled against the dominant role of the middleman. the middleman rules of —— rules in the virtual economy. that is why we're seeing this impact which is not gone away. it is still here. and it is clashing with this virtual economy, pushing people out ofjobs. making them basically slave labour because, let's face it, what is a zero hour contract? it is slave labour in a developed nation. i find contract? it is slave labour in a developed nation. ifind it remarkable that some people say, well, it is a flexible way of working. it is not. it is basically the dominance of slave labour. i don't think slaves get paid normally. it is casual labour under another term. casual labour was made illegal in effect in this country and easier or hours contract isjust the reinvention of casual labour. some talk of wage slaves, don't they? that is metaphorical. the point is, the prices of what you're describing is productive labour is the crisis of manufacturing. manufacturing is now being done by robots, basically. and will be done more by robots in the future. there is no point in trying to hold that back. that is the future. what happens to all those people who cannot stop like the miners and car manufacturers, who can actually be taught to be computer code is in the future? this isa computer code is in the future? this is a cultural, political, social, economic crisis. it is a slow—moving one but a crisis none the less. you touched on our political discourse on both sides of the other that has become extremely nasty. people are called names based on what they vote on, the kind of things people say about other people they disagree with is quite nasty and on the fringes of that beget various kinds of terrorism including in germany this week. we have is cleavage. society is falling into binary templated. each of the accusing each other deplorable attitudes and so on, that is going to be with us for some time. i wonder whether we should call it populism. with populist uprising against the old order and comes from social inequalities. economic equalities and yvonne top of the —— and if governments continue with austerity, cutting back public services, you got a revolution in the making. people ask, what does the government do for me? absolutely. theresa may next year has a huge problem on her hands, how to get britain working again and how to get britain working again and how to get britain working again and how to get people to earn a living wage. a living wage that can pay your costs and your bills. that is the biggest problem. and the rising levels of youth unemployment that we now almost take granted. the fa ct that we now almost take granted. the fact that spain has stumbled in trying to form a government or have policy that actually function, has use an opponent of about 25%. this a cce pta nce use an opponent of about 25%. this acceptance that we have these young people and they can either be all casual lovers of lexi to or whatever, this is just casual lovers of lexi to or whatever, this isjust disguised employment. that needs a solution because after the financial crisis, banks were seen as too big to go but not communities. communities is a crucial work because it gives be built around a local workplace when was the local coal mine, steelworks, the local automotive plant, and it is notjust the job that has lost it is the whole sense of the continuity. i was talking about the fact that we have manufacturing companies basically going down, losing markets and so on. and yet the stock stock exchange is going up. why? because governments pump new printed money into markets. not into the economy. that is the virtual economy. that is what i was talking about. the governments are supporting the markets, not the economy. that is such a crucial mistake of a virtual economy and as regards the online companies, they are basically destroying the economy. they are not creating the economy. i would not say all of them. one might come these can create wealth. just because you cannot manufacture things does not mean that you do not create wealth. you can create new kinds of transactions and communications. in this economy britain is now 70% ofa in this economy britain is now 70% of a service economy. the service economy generally does not produce anything. neitherjobs, economy generally does not produce anything. neither jobs, nor wealth, nor anything. that is important. it does generate wealth. we have to take into account that now you have millennial ‘s radio1 that now you have millennial ‘s radio 1 tavern to keep the same job for 30 years. we have to accept that there are those changes but the key issueis there are those changes but the key issue is what thomas ways. —— raised. this is about being liberated from dougie don't have to be a core manner because your father was. there are people who want to be coal and they do not have the possibility any longer. continuity. the barbers expecting the sun to follow them down the pits or whatever. the choices, you have to become an addict international bit of the labour force that is being flung an over the world at the behest of capital enterprises. that breakdown of community is very serious. let's move on because the wars and divisions in syria, yemen and others are viewed by local resentments but also by something which is intractable. the rivalry between saudi arabia and other countries exerting influence. can we say that 2016 has proved to be a good year for iran? a nuclear deal with the united states, expanding influence and the consolidation of the assad regime in damascus. it has been a good yearfor teheran. 2050 was a better year. they struck the deal then and was little heat in... with the obama presidency ending there will be much top —— tougher questions. in 2016 orion lost at least 1000 soldiers in syria. they are losing many in iraq also. it is good in terms of politically, they, stronger in the region than others. turkey had unaccounted cool on the presidency. —— and attempted coup. domestically there are key problems because the economy is not picking up as fast as they promise people. and there are deep divisions that we will see rising in 2017 as we gear up to elections. i would say, however, that for iran's long—term prosperity they need prosperity in their region and that has not come about this year. a good yearfor year. a good year for putin. almost everybody agrees. it is a good year for putin in the sense that hillary clinton did not win the election. let's put it this way. i think there is some potential in trump working with putin and maybe the middle east will benefit from that. because we had a situation that. because we had a situation that was absolutely impossible to have a proper good impact on the middle east when america basically had a stand—off with russia. now, as regards putting's future, we might say this year was good for him. —— leading putin's future. he will face enormous challenges next year because the economy is not doing well in russia. and whatever happens in syria, whatever happens all over the world, for putin, the main crunch will be solving the ukraine crisis and the economy. and the signs are not good for both. lam signs are not good for both. i am always shocked when i hear it has been a good year for putin. it is beena has been a good year for putin. it is been a horrific year for the people of syria and putin russia would have had it in their power to do something in the united nations security council to stop the bloodshed and arrange a coalition to talk about future syria. putin has continually blocked all efforts in new york to bring the fighting parties in syria to feel and get to begin the negotiations. and i think that refusal to work and a positive way and constructive way for an end of is the biggest brain that i can attach to putin. in order to safeguard his influence in the area, he sacrificed thousands of people on the alter of his big power politics and establishing a hold. i'm sure a good year for putin is a horrible year for syria. and iran also is part of that. putin has done the grand slam this year. he has become the most powerful man on the planet for the third year running. he's the chief actor in the middle east because america simply backed away because there was no leadership from the we st there was no leadership from the west to give him a contest. and now he perhaps is stuck. i think he has wedged himself into a position of tremendous power in the region but in trouble at home. still stuck with the bat that is economy is absolutely dependent on the wheel price but they're verging attentions from the problems at home with this imperial move abroad. cani imperial move abroad. can i suggest one of the reasons 2017 could be a good year for putin is that the eu is an absolute disarray, isn't it? i don't think he benefits because russia does need a strong european union, strong europe, for trade. because they're union, strong europe, for trade. because they‘ re republicans union, strong europe, for trade. because they're republicans coming up because they're republicans coming up all the time. —— because there are problems coming up all the time. why would russia backed a loser? all this talk about russia supporting right—wing movements in europe, it has got nothing to do with the real politics of what is going on. they are supporting... they're very keen to get turkey onside to pull turkey away from the nato ‘s beer of influence and to get a foothold. our door one is going in the russian direction and becoming less interested in human rights, more dictatorial, displaying into putin's hands. do you believe that russian things that a nato member would become a close friend of moscow? they are behaving as if they do. i think it is more tactical. erica —— erdogan. taking a step forward, taking a step back and confusing their allies in the region and that has been one of the issues. iran had a better year than arab allies because at the sport iran there was much more policy. talking about good and bad years i would suggest it has been a bad year for the european union. this is what i meant to say when you are walking, about the interests of putin. the weaknesses in europe also stems from the unsolved problem in the middle is. putin is causing ever more refugees to be shipped in to migrate to other parts of europe which would increase instability in the west. it leads onto the last question as to whether or not there isa question as to whether or not there is a cold war in europe? the westerners too weak to present a solid front that it used to have. it is struggling to compass to terms with his own crisis. 2017 will not see the end of that. the case for a cold war. for there being some kind of new cold war in this continent of hours, is ukraine, which you have pointed out is a matter of great sensitivity to russia. as you know, the baltic nations, sweden for example is reinforcing islands in the baltic that they withdrew troops from 25 yea rs that they withdrew troops from 25 years ago. it is doing extraordinary things. real sensitivities in the baltic states as well so how do you see the relations between putin and the west, particularly nato? relations will be terrible because nato is not only close to the borders, it is actually increasing military presence right on the border and anyone who knows the real situation in europe would laugh at the assumption that russia is banning to attack the baltic poland anybody else in europe. hadn't russian generals thought aloud about the possibility of a limited nuclear award in europe not to be unthinkable? when nato is moving troops to the russian border, of course there will be noise is made about nuclear weapons and so on. but the point of the matter is that the west has crossed the line in ukraine. this was going to... the west has crossed the line? excuse me, it has encouraged a coup, basically, in kyoto. and suddenly we see history been divided. —— in gf. we forget what happened in kiev. you don't have government is being overthrown in europe, elected governments, and then every body says, well, it isjust governments, and then every body says, well, it is just popular uprising, when it was funded and encouraged by western governments. i would leave that is true to determine who is behind the development in ukraine. i am more worried about western europe not only being unstable because of the crises that have come but also splintering from america. the old axis of stability which meant the american nuclear... liberalism has collapsed. liberal governments are no longer effective. excuse me, you can see it with brexit, you can see it with trump, you can see it was all these movements. the complacent liberal hegemony is what has given rise to all these right—wing populist movements. at the liberal government had been more attentive to their own populations and the disenchantment we would not be in this situation. we won't agree on that but with the viewers left, how has the left in europe, in particular, but also in north america and the philippines, why has the left been so we? i think we've moved beyond the age of ideological dichotomy. left or right no longer seems to be... no, there are left and right. those wings which come together on the populism level, so the left really has nowhere to go. it is the centre—left that is the problem. it is the centre—left, the germany of the centre—left. they actually thought that the blood was over. “— actually thought that the blood was over. —— the head germany. all they we re over. —— the head germany. all they were talking about, all clinton was talking about was identity politics. glass ceilings for women and social minorities and gay marriage and these are issues that you talk about when you got nothing else to say. and they're not relating to economic reality of most peoples lives. in addition to that there is the issue of people became much more focused on issue —based questions. rather political allegiances. like referendums for example. referendums have not helped this case at all. many people voted for trouble was that particular issue is what they cared about. whether it was economic migration of building a wall with mexico. that is what they voted for. to have somebody that represents the republican party was not a republican says a lot. we are missing one important point. the left has mismanaged the economy for a good decade. and now we see the results of that. the economies are mismanaged in britain and america and france and germany, everywhere. and that is wider repercussions is that people are fed up repercussions is that people are fed up with this. you have to run your economy properly and then you can talk about social issues, families, equal rights and so on. the left just decided to forget the economy and talk about social issues only. i think the wrong ideas about the economy. quantitative easing is a way of solving, that was a disaster. it was a short—term disaster. it had begunin it was a short—term disaster. it had begun in order to save us from collapse. i think we've agreed that all these crises have removed the old certainty of left and right sort of dichotomy. the left and right are distinctly different. can i ask? would you be glad to see the back of 2016? i'm speaking for many of our viewers who think, thank goodness. come on, it will be better. i think it is time we forget 2016, honestly. the anniversary of the russian revolution. that will give you something to look forward to. the uncertainty of 2016, we need to forget it because it was dangerous. one certainty about russia and 2016 was the discovery of cheating in the olympic games and russia has had the application for the olympic games withdrawn. this revelation gives me a lot of comfort that the cheats of the world are being called off and called out... russia needs to leave the olympic movement causes corrupt and its needs to stop. russia is a corrupt partner. all countries are on with it. we don't have the time to go through all sporting corruption. the huge uncertainty is, what is trump really about? she has so many generals but he has appointed somebody a secretary of state who is supposedly a great friend putin. how is going to work? if he is going to be number two is going to work? if he is going to be numbertwo in is going to work? if he is going to be number two in the state 's department is it going to be hard clock, soft cop? i don't understand the thinking behind it. you growers perfectly to next week's programme. that is it for today. you can comment on twitter and in gauge with our guests and they will argue back, i can promise you. we will be back, i can promise you. we will be back next time with our look ahead to the delights of 2017. goodbye. it is another windy day across the uk. still some disruption in northern scotland even though storm barbara is beginning to pull away. fresh westerly winds elsewhere. in this cloud is next weather system coming in and that'll be the start of boxing day. that is storm connor bringing severe gales back to the north of scotland and the northern isles. for this morning we're seeing some rain and snow showers across the northern half of the uk. some snow, too. relatively low levels across northern scotland will. icy patches are around as well. though shoals driven along very strong winds, still costing in excess of 60 mild an hour. showers from northern ireland in northern england. they could come with hail and thunder. the odd shower pushed into parts of wales and the midlands but actually, for the rest of england and wales, we are seeing a very mad of dry weather and getting a bit of sunshine from time to time as well though it is blustery. this is why was he the best of the sunshine today. it is windy. there isa sunshine today. it is windy. there is a bit ofa sunshine today. it is windy. there is a bit of a bright to windows well. temperature and a single figures from many of us. describing ten or sources across southern parts of the uk. this evening, we will see some rain around parts of the northern uk, and that as mild air started pushing across the uk. temperatures heading up overnight and that will mean an exceptionally mild first half of christmas day. temperatures beginning the day widely into double figures and some may get to 15 celsius. it is not going to feel a lot like christmas. it will be windy again and there will be gales and parts of not winning when, northern ireland and scotland. very blowy on the high roots. 20 of cloud as well. some pics of them particularly across northern and western parts of the uk from time to time. later in the days and colder airfilters from time to time. later in the days and colder air filters in from time to time. later in the days and colder airfilters in the north. showers turning when to read. just a few may get that white christmas. stop the storm is here for boxing day. bush and the north was a close enough to the far north of scotland and the northern isles to produce some gusts of around 80 or 90 mild an hour with a met office amber warning in 40. it will be windy across the uk again. this is bbc news. the headlines at midday. israel condemns a un security council vote, calling for an end to settlements on occupied palestinian land. the actress carrie fisher is in intensive care after a suspected heart attack on a flight from london to la. rail passengers face delays, diversions and cancellations as work starts on a record number of engineering upgrades of the network. theresa may calls for britain to come together as it prepares to leave the eu, in her christmas message. also, big sam is back in a job, this time at crystal palace. the former england manager, sam allardyce, signs a 2.5 year deal at selhurst park following the sacking of alan pardew. and it's a festive click with digital jumpers, hatched technology and star wars drones. that's all in half an hour here on bbc news.

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