20th anniversary, here is another chance to see Sarah Montagues hardtalk interview with one of britains most celebrated composers, sirjohn tavener, filmed just months before his death in 2013. Welcome to hardtalk. Im sarah montague. Sirjohn tavener composes music for god, even referring to it as a form of divine dictation. In doing so, he has become one of britains most celebrated living composers. A0 years ago, his work was sometimes dismissed as bland, populist and new age. Since then, he has defied the critic the Protecting Veil was one of the biggest selling classical cds ever. Many years ago, he had a heart attack which nearly killed him. Since then, everything has changed his music, his outlook on life and his faith. What happened and how did he change . Sirjohn tavener, welcome to hardtal thank you. What happened to your music after you nearly died . It nearly vanished altogether. Because i was taken ill in switzerland. They didnt not know whether i was conscious, whether i was brain dead or not. My wife came over from england. She played me mozart and i started conducting, like that. The doctors realised my brain was not dead. I did not become conscious after that. But they realised i reacted to mozarts music. And then when i did become conscious, it seemed that i was so weak. I was in such a poor condition. It seemed that music had vanished fr i reacted to it if you played it but i didnt have any music in my head. It was extraordinary because all of my life i had music in the head. It seemed to vanish. And so did my so called belief in go well, it did not vanish but it did not seem there anymore. Both the music and the belief in another dimension have always gone together. So, i had no music, no god, nothing. But i was contented in a sort of way to be just looked after by nurses. Thats what it was like for two years. There was nothing sudden or dramatic that happened. Gradually, i started to hear music again, feeling a kind of spiritual interest. Because the interest had all gone. Then i started to read books. One of the most extraordinary things that happened to me was that during this period, i listened to a lot of late beethoven. He never meant a great deal to me. After being ill, his music wasjust both as a composer, it made myjaw drop. He had amazing technique and extraordinary talent. Also, it was a transcendent what of dealing with his suffering. How did it change your music . Did you find that you are writing different music as a result . Yes. The music was much more condensed and terse. I had written long pieces that lasted many hours. My interest in doing that, i had not the strength. I mean, it was both a physical and spiritual thing. I didnt have the strength, so the music became much more concentrated. I suppose more transparent. My attitude to religion was quite different. I had this very inspired kind of faith. But sometimes, my personal life wasnt as good as the faith might have implied. Since i have been ill, i have been much more caring for my children and wife. In a way, ive come to understand that suffering is part of existence. I dont want to be pious but i think god allows suffering of the most appalling to exist as part of the journey. You have had many illnesses in your life. You have marfan syndrome, genetically acquired. It affects the connective tissue. But you talk about being grateful for some of the pain you had in your life. I think it keeps a certain humility and keeps one in touch with a childlike. Id almost go as far as to say with a feminine. Because one has a. Its hard to explain. How do i say . If you dont have this humility, you are likely to lose out on a childlike or feminine dimension. So much of modern art is masculine or aggressive and has no sense of the feminine or childlike. This certain sort of weakness, it is not exactly a weakness. Its a humility inside the notes. One does not see it in a lot of contemporary art. Right from Eliot Gardiner to someone likejohn adams. Everything is very masculine and aggressive and very well done. It is like driving a ferrari, a well tuned ferrari. I mean, that is a danger of contemporary art. Its still my slight problem with contemporary music, contemporary art. I feel that the sort of dimensions of chopin and schumann. Their music is full of the feminine full of this wonderful outpouring, which you do get in contemporary art. For some reason, you can get it in painting or poetry. It is interesting what you mean by the feminine. You immediately talk about the childlike. Rhapsodic dimension. And masculine is what . It is hard edged, intellectual, aggressive. Foryou, the pain, you talked about suffering as being a kind of ecstasy. Yes. What did you mean by that . Its the other side of feeling ecstatic. The pain. Its what the pain actually does. It produces a kind of ecstatic music of ecstasy from the music that is influenced by making love with my wife. Thats a completely different type o or any feeling of gods presence, which is a different kind of ecstasy. Ive come to realise that its a part of gods plan, that one suffers. Its up to one, somehow, to transcend it and to produce a kind of ecstasy through the suffering. I dont think to write about the suffering per se on its own without the dimension of god is particularly valuable. One of the first pieces you wrote after your most recent bout of illness was from tolstoys work. You described it as almost autobiogr a man who is dying and reviews his life. You said in the end, theres no death but only light. That happens on the last page of the novel. Its a harrowing description of excruciating Pain Screaming that went on for three days, complete alienation from his wife, from his son. Suddenly, on the last page, it is only the last page, this moment comes when he asks for forgiveness of his wife, and his little boy is holding his hand. He asks forforgiveness. His little boy is holding his hand. He asks forforgiveness. At that moment, the pain seems to disappear. There is no death. There is only light. Lets talk about the importance of god. You described the way you write music as almost like divine dictation. Yes, thats a bit pompous of me. It is clear when you talk about itt from using it. An expression of william blakes. But it is, in a sense, you channelling god. It seems to me that is what is happening. When i wrote the 99 Names Of Allah according to the koran, i meditated. Its more accurate to say i walked around the garden, repeating the arab word. The names. It seemed, on a daily basis, that a melody started to form in my mind to the arabic words. music plays everything today tends to be one dimensional. People criticise muslims, catholics too easily. Journalists too easily make jabs at catholics. They dont deal with the massive depth of catholicism or the depth of islam. I think its. Maybe there are programmes that want to disprove mohammed. It is Notjust The Historical Dimensions of religion but they are speaking on a different level. Their one dimensional thinking is only historical and mystical. This is what is surprising about you. You talk unapologetically about your belief in god and what you are trying to do. Which almost seems surprising in these times, when we have militant atheism, religion being at its extremes, fundamentalism. Its reached a kind of senility, old age and decrepitude. These things are likely to happen. What has . All religions . All religions, have reached old age. There are aspect of senility and decrepitude. What happens to them . Do they die . No, ithink, well, im speaking above my depth at the moment. But the hindus say that we are at the end of a period, where they forecast a kind of disillusionment of religion. Then there will be a mighty resurgence. I dont know what will happen. That is what the hindu doctrine is. This is one that you believe . Well, when i say i believe, i would put it to music. Perhaps it is the power of the position you find yourself in, where you are talking about god. I wonder whether it makes you more or less popular. The critics hate it. They love it when i say that religion is in a state of decrepitude. Because they think i have given up on religion. But you havent . Not at all. You said you were presbyterian but you were attracted by catholicism and you converted to orthodox in 1977. Yes. Since then, you had sort of fused it with. Am i right in thinking you have fused it with hinduism and buddhism . Well i believe all religions are equally true. Otherwise they are equally false. It must be that. That is another perspective. But platos argument is that in the beginning, god and Heaven And Earth joined and there was only one primal being. God. Therefore, in logic, all religions must be equally true. You are no longer orthodox . You have to be something, i think, in this life. Because its a fallen world. You cannot be a hindu and a muslim and christian. All at once. Then it becomes a new age kerfuffle. You have to be something. Up to a point, you have to acknowled the discipline of that particular religion. Although you say that you are member of the Orthodox Church, you are adapting in taking things from other religions, people listen to you and say it is only new age nonsense. I do not think it is. What you say to them . I say i am an orthodox, i have to live by the disciplines of the orthodox religion. We have an Orthodox Chapel right here, i used to be quite fanatical about it but i. That seems to have passed. I converted it into a chapel. But i have been rethinking my relationship with one of the most powerful influences in my life. I have not spoken about this before, i knew a protestant and presbyterian minister who was tortured by his faith. He used to break down at sermons, he was a very unique character. He told me that life is a creeping tragedy. Only at the end of my life do i understand what he meant by it. That life is tragic, that there is another dimension to it. You have the critics occasionally railing against you. The recent concert they did not seem to do that so much. They thought there was a substance and transparency, i think so too. You didnt used to say that you cared, but yes, i care. For those people who buy your cds, that one was one of the biggest selling classical cds ever, and also after the death of Princess Diana where your piece for her was used as the coffin was being taken out and that prompted a remarkable response. I wrote that piece for a family friend, a girl who had been knocked off a bicycle and died. It was extraordinary for her parents to see the life of that piece because i only wrote it as a private tribute to a friend. Somehow gained that national recognition. You said you are trying to channel god and people seem receptive to that, yet it is a remarkably secular age. Yes. Are they responding to the god in your work or are they responding to you . I do not know. I dont. I honestly believe that it is impossible to fall out of the transcendent, that no matter how much Noise Atheists make they do not think they fall out of the transcendent. If we are made in the image of god is impossible. Explain what you mean. You mean that atheists are made in the image of god too . Yes, no matter how hard they try and rail against him i do not think they fall completely out of god. I mean, i have neverfound an atheist, and my daughters says atheists are so boring, but ive never found an atheist who convinces me. I know when i read sometimes any of the great mystical poets, i do not know why, ijust know that it is right. I listen to atheists but no matter how intelligent and brilliant they are, no Atheist Writer convinces me. They do not inspire me. There must be something wrong. You have described at least for some of your work that it has come to you fully formed . Yes, very often when a person dies they seem to leave a gift of a piece of music. It has happened countless times, when a catholic monk died and as i drove home from the funeral these notes came into my head and that became the requiem for him. Is that fully formed . No, no, that is an artistic. I get the initial idea and then i go home and work it out, not fully formed. That is not quite true. One i had fully formed, my mother was driving me home from cornwall and ijust knew where the piece existed. That is the only time that it has come out fully formed. Some have said that your music is simple music for simple minds. Listen to the recent music, it is not so simple. But i love simplicity. You cannot say that beethoven was a simplistic composer, but you can say that mozart. Everything he wrote was simple but there are bits that come in from time to time, but you can say he is a simple composer. He is like a being that was dropped out of paradise. Is all good music, does it all come from god . I think it must do. For you, it seems the ritual is important. Forgive me to use the phrase, but you use the ideas, use the universality of religion, you use it because of its rituals. Because of its rituals and its beauty. The problem with western rituals is they have thrown out so many things. They have thrown out the beauty. Throwing out the latin language, the Catholic Church seems to have lost a great deal. They are bringing it back to some extent, but it is just that ritual. I am sure the Orthodox Church is just as corrupt as the Catholic Church but they do not pronounce on world issues, they keep quiet on world issues. I am sure they are just as corrupt. Not pronouncing on moral issues is a good thing . People should be free to. It embarrasses me when the Catholic Church announces on moral issues. I do not think they are able to deal with it, i think the present pope is a very good idea, he is very special. In terms of what the ritual means for you, and your music, you talk about being inspired by devotional music, part of it is not music, it is creating a space for contemplation. But do you think that is true of all music . I think you are right, it is creating space for contemplation. It is the one thing i have contributed to music. I have written large Ritual Pieces written to be performed in large spaces usually churches, large spaces. There are certain pieces that last all night. In a way i have tried to reinvent what has been taken away from the churches, in a sense. For many, the way you became a public figure way back in 1968, because you listen to that piece now and how it is so different to where you are now, what do you think of it . I love it. It is a piece you ought to write when you are 20, is full of ideas, imaginative, surrealist, i was interested in surrealism, all of those ideas were interested to be engaged with when you are young. It starts with a description of a whale and then. Incorporates so many different things. You said it was written by an angry young man and some of the things you were railing against them have not changed. You mean the po faced nature of modern art . The po faced nature of modern art. The fundamentalist. It was an area you could not criticise. They were writing this stuff that was very dangerously near mathematics. It must contain mathematics but it must contain inspiration and divine inspiration. Are you still angry about the same things . And you are still writing as much as you always have been . Some days i am flat out. There is a considerable amount. It is stuff of which you are proud . Yes, yes. So john tavener, thank you for coming on hardtalk. Hello there, good morning. With all the energy and the instability in the atmosphere over the past 2a hours, we have seen a lot of heavy and thundery downpours. Northenr ireland for one has been battered by some storms earlier on, so too across parts of scotland, some fierce looking clouds, here. Weve had about a months worth of rain at okehampton, in devon, due to some peninsulas showers. More showers over the coming few days. We still have low pressure to the north west of the uk. The closer to that, the more showers are over the next two days, the closer to that, the more showers but over the next two days, while there will be showers, they should become fewer. In the morning, we still have some showers are left over from overnight in scotland. A cloudy start here. The north west of england, sunshine and showers. The other side of the pennines, across the midlands, a bright and sunny start but showers across Western Fringes of wales. Towards the coast. As you move towards the south east and east anglia, the showers will big gone and it will be a bright sunny start. This picture taken yesterday at the oval. If youre going to watch the cricket, it should be exciting and it should be dry, actually, just a small chance of a shower and not quite as breezy. Warm into the sunshine. The Southern Parts of the uk, very few showers. Showers not as widespread. Slow moving heavy thundery downpours across Northern Ireland and scotland. Maybe some hail as well. Tuesday sees some further showers. Showers not as wide spread. Very much hit and miss, towards the south east likely to stay dry. Right now, the jetstream further south and hence the unsettled weather. The jet stream picking up another area of low pressure across the atlantic heading towards the uk. Things turning wetter from the south west, slowly but surely, on wednesday. A few showers perhaps in scotland. Rain around on wednesday night. Goodbye. Im Sharanjit Leyl in singapore. The headlines a show of strength from the United States after another Ballistic Missile test by north korea. More violence in venezuela during controversial elections for a new assembly to change the constitution. Im Babita Sharma in london. Also in the programme. Security is stepped up at airports across australia after a plot to blow up a plane is uncovered. A Pioneering Programme in china to bring love and hope to some of the countrys millions of children needing special end of life care
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