apple computer, a pioneer in the personal computers and software business, has fallen on hard times. after reporting a big quarterly loss, it decided to lay off 1,300 workers. >> how do you feel about what's happened to apple? did it have to turn out the way it did? >> it's hard to predict these things. >> you've thought about this. this is not a subject that's unfamiliar to you. >> yeah, it is. it's sort of ancient history to me right now. i don't really think about this stuff anymore. apple and microsoft duke it out and netscape and microsoft duke it out, and to me it's a spectator sport. >> in the mid-1990s, apple had a couple more ceos, none of whom really grasped the vision of apple. as a result, the company just did worse and worse and worse as the decade progressed. >> with big losses in the last quarter, with profit margins shrinking, apple seems destined for a takeover. this is a computer that even has fan clubs.