Transcripts For CNNW At This Hour With Berman And Michaela 20141210

Terror attacks and even find and kill Osama Bin Laden himself. Former Vice President dick cheney calls the report a bunch of hooey. He said that before it was released or had a chance to read it. The reaction not purely partisan. Some democrats say the report is biased. Some republicans, you heard john mccain on the floor yesterday, defending the report. Lets check jim acosta at the white house in the Briefing Room where that briefing is set to take place. What are you hearing, jim. What are we expecting to hear here today . Good morning, john and michaela. The White House Press secretary josh ernest, they scheduled an unusually early briefing this morning. But theyre saying that purely for logistical reasons but we are going to hear josh ernest take these questions head on about this torture report that was released by the Senate Intelligence Committee Chair yesterday dianne feinstein. We shall point out ernest took questions about this on air force one during a press gaggle with reporters but that was off camera. This will be the first time we hear from josh ernest on camera about this torture report and i think this is really the first time that the press is going to have a chance to ask josh about some of the really damning, really revealing allegations that are made in this report. That there was extensive waterboarding way beyond what the American Public knew about that. There were other forms of these harsh interrogation techniques that sunk to levels that Many Americans would probably be shocked by if they were to go through and read this report line by line. So i think whats going to be playing out over the course of the next hour or so, youll hear questions from reporters pressing ernest on this key critical question. A couple key critical questions. One is did this intelligence that came out of this harsh Interrogation Program amount to anything . Was some of the stories that were told by these detainees, were they fabbricated because they wanted the torture to stop . Does the white house believe that or do they believe there was intelligence that helped lead to the killing of Osama Bin Laden for example. You mentioned what former cia directors are saying. Former cia directors michael hayden, porter goss and george tenant had the oped responding to this report saying they believe this intelligence coming out of this Interrogation Program helped lead to the killing of Osama Bin Laden. Theres one passage in the oped where they talk about the fact that in the weeks and months after 9 11 it was like a ticking time bomb scenario that they were afraid that Osama Bin Laden was plotting with pakistani scientists to develop a Nuclear Weapon that could be set off in manhattan. Some its in that vane that these former cia directors are saying, look, this is why we did what we did. And its interesting to hear what the president had to say about this yesterday, john and michaela, when he was doing the interviews with the Spanish Language stations univision and tell mundo, originally supposed to be about immigration but they ended up asking him about the torture report. The president really sort of saying on a couple different occasions that you have to z goes back and look at the time frame where all of this took place. He was characterizing this Interrogation Program as sort of a relic of the early years after 9 11 and that that might explain somewhat as to why these American Values in the president s view were not upheld in carrying out these arse interrogation techniques. Were hearing the two minute warning for the press briefing but i think those are the key questions playing out. I can get another question in if we have two minutes left, jim. One of the key questions now is what now . What will the white house and do . Several times over the last few years attorney general eric holder has said the Justice Department will not prosecute the cia officers who may or may not have been engaged in torture for the years. Does that change now . Any indication of that . There is no indication right now, john, that the Justice Department is going to launch investigation investigations into these former cia officials and i think the question will be asked a couple different ways. One is, yes, eric holder said these things but they were not in the context of this torture report as it was laid out to the American People yesterday. There are details in this report that clearly amount to torture under u. S. And International Law and youve had some you heard some conversation over the last 24 hours that perhaps this is a case for International Criminal Court Proceedings and certainly u. S. Justice proceedings. But i think what the president is saying is that he wants to move forward not back. Thats an early indication they dont want to see prosecution bus it will be an interesting question to ask of josh ernest in a couple minutes. Were waiting on that. While we are lets turn to barbara starr, pentagon correspondent. One of the concerns here is the fbi and the department of Homeland Security are concerned about what could result in overseas, in fact, going lengths to release a bulletin warning that there could be repercussions. What more do we know . I may have the quickest answer because right now while the warnings are out there. While forces are on alert and being watchful, no indications yet of any direct threats to any u. S. Facilities either many the United States or overseas. Still keeping watch but right now its really extraordinary, theyre seeing a very muted reaction to all of this. What about u. S. Allies, barbara . One of the fears has been that some countries that the u. S. Is friendly with would be outed as hosting some of these black sites for secret prisons. Well, weve just actually heard from the former president of poland who was in charge of that country when some of this happened. He said yes he was asked by the United States to provide a facility where people could be questioned but he says he did not know what was going on inside that facility and, of course, now we know that poland did provide one of those socalled black sites where the cia was secretly interrogating these prisoners so poland coming forward very much out in public. There has been some talk about it before. Other countries have been named out there. The big concern about this, the former polish president said, with this out in public it may be tough for the United States to find other countries in the future who will agree to work with the cia on these covert programs over fear of being outed about them eventually. Barbara, i suppose one of the concerns about it here is that this is hours after the report has been released. It may be a question of just watching and waiting. We know often times this kind of information is used as a propaganda tool, it has been before. So this is something theyll continue to monitor. Absolutely. Watching social media, especially those isis web site there iss already some commentary on there. The government of iran has come out publicly saying unpleasant things about the United States in all of this as you can well imagine. So its not that theres no chatter but theyre not seeing it turn into action on the streets if you will. People moving against u. S. Embassies or facilities overseas. So the social media universe becomes kind of an Early Warning signal that they look at constantly to see if there is chatter out there, how legitimate it might be and how much trouble it may be stirring up. But, you know, thankfully right now, at least, its all quiet, essentially. Not to say theyre not still watching, no forces have come off alert status as far as we know at this point. I think its fair to say theyre going to give it a few days, maybe perhaps until friday. But theyre just not seeing it. This is not turning in, at least at this point, to the kind of thing when you saw situations develop after there were threats by a preacher in the United States to burn the koran. After the danish cartoon about the prophet mohammed. Youre just not its not that kind of reaction that youre seeing. At least thankfully not yet. Barbara, josh ernest the White House Press secretary is beginning his briefing right now. Hes going over scheduling and administrative issues. The minute he starts talking substance about the report well go back to him. Let me sneak in one more question to you if i can. This report is about the cia which is a different entity than the military, than the pentagon, than the defense establishment. Im wondering if youve had a chance to get reaction from the soldiers in the field who could be affected by this report. The United States military has its own history on this subject with this notorious events at the abu ghraib prison in iraq a number of years ago. What it all has led to is the u. S. Government now has the standard. It obeys something called the Army Field Manual. There are international norms, rules and regulations for how interrogations are conducted and you guys just pointed to the key reason for all of this. Its because the u. S. Follows these you would be told. Its because its always concerned. If u. S. Troops were captured overseas, the American People would not want them or the which you ared in any way so the u. S. Has to follow the rules, too. Barbara starr, that briefing is about to commence. Why dont we return now to the White House Briefing room and joshe josherners. Does he plan to meet with eric holder to discuss it or with his nominee, loretta lynch, to discuss the content . Id refer you to the department of justice on. This i do that because its my understanding that the department of justice actually did conduct a review of the actions of cia operatives that are mentioned in this report. There was a career federal prosecutor assigned to this case and this individual conducted an extensive inquiry. And upon looking at the facts in evidence decided not to pursue an indictment. So for questions about what that investigation included and how and why that conclusion was reached id refer you to the department of justice. And these are the kind of decisions that should be made without any without even the appearance of political appearance and weve been very clear about the proper role for the Justice Department in this matter. In addition, i understand that there were Inspector General investigations, at least one, i think maybe even two that were conducted along these lines. The Inspector General is somebody who operates independent of the executive branch. And for the conclusions of those reports, i believe some of those conclusions have been made public so id refer you to those reports. But those are done absent the or aside from any sort of president ial directive. Does the president agree with former cia officials that the interrogation techniques did result in actionable intelligence or does he agree with the Senate Committees conclusion that they did not. Well, jim, you are acknowledging that there are a couple of sides of a very vigorous ongoing debate. This is a debate that occurred around the announcement of a Successful Mission to take Osama Bin Laden off the battlefield. There was a similarly robust debate that occurred around the release of the movie zero dark 30 that examined issues around the bin laden mission. The conclusion that this president has reached is that these differences which are held by wellmeaning, patriotic americans, many of whom have detailed knowledge of these programs and of our National Security efforts more broad ly s that there is one thing that both sides do agree on and its something the president agrees, too. Which is that the most powerful one of the most powerful tools in our arsenal to protect and advance our interests around the globe is the moral authority of the United States of america. And the commanderinchief concluded that the use of the techniques that are described in this report significantly undermines the moral authority of the United States of america. And thats why the president on his second full day here at the white house issued an executive order ending those tactics. And theres not been a lot of discussion about this lately so i wanted to call it to your attention. The president also through an executive action asked that the department of justice and a couple of other relevant National Security agencies conduct a review of our of the way that the u. S. Government interrogates those individuals who are in u. S. Custody. He also urged this task force to conduct a review of the way that individuals who are in u. S. Government custody are handled and in some cases transferred to other countries. And the outcome of this review led by a career prosecutor identified a couple things. The first is he concluded again, i think this is in august of 2009, he concluded that the Army Field Manual and Law Enforcement techniques were sufficient guidance for u. S. Personnel who are conducting interrogations. That that was clear guidance that they could use he suggested the creation of something we have used to great effect, something called a highvalue detainee interrogation group. This is another terrible government acronym called the hig, but that acronym does not describe what this group is. What it suggests is that there should be an Interagency Group of expert interrogators convened where they can share best practices and they can be deployed on very short notice to essentially anywhere in the world where a highvalue detainee has been taken into custody. And these expert interrogators can use their skills and training to illicit information thats useful to National Security but in a way that doesnt prohibit our ability to bring these individuals to justice in the u. S. Court system. And this is the hig, has been deployed on a number of occasions to great effect. The other reforms that are included in this review included specific guidelines that u. S. Personnel should use when transferring individuals to the custody of the u. S. Government to other countries. And this included getting certain assurances from other countries about how these individuals will be treated when they are detained. It also provides guidelines for u. S. Personnel to conduct some oversight and ensure these other countries are living up to the commitment they have made in terms of detention and treatment of these individuals. So this is just one example. Again, this is the result of a task force that the president created on his second day in office to make sure that proper guidance and oversight and reform was implemented as it relates to interrogation and detention of individuals in u. S. Custody. This is important because the Senate Report released yesterday highlights that there was not good guidance. That there was not good leadership and proper oversight of these programs and yet thats what the president sought to institute on his second day in office. I think it demonstrates the president s commitment to taking seriously, very seriously, the need to show some leadership and to reform some of the shortcomings of these programs. On the question of effectiveness, hes going to remaining a gnostic . Hes going to let 2 det debate without him playing a role . Well, the conclusion that the president has reached again, its two principle things here. The conclusion that the president reached is a principle that people on both sides of this debate can agree to, which is that the moral authority of the United States of america is one of the most powerful tools in our arsenal to protect interests around the globe and its the view of the president that the use of these techniques regardless of whether or not they illicit National Intelligence information undermine our ability to use this very powerful tool. And thats why the president outlawed these techniques on the first or second day in office. On the omnibus, 1600 pages, 1. 1 trillion, will the pay sign it . Its lengthy, isnt it . Has he read it . He has not. Neither has everybody in his administration so its still something that the administration is reviewing. They are a couple of things i can say about it, though, that we know generally. As a general matter i can tell you that we are pleased that democrats and republicans on the hill do seem to be coming together around a proposal that will avoid a government shutdown. Weve talked in the past about how a goth shutdown is bad for the economy. And particularly at this point where we are starting to see some head winds from the global economy. Ath at the same time the u. S. Economy is demonstrating signs of real strength and resilience. The last thing we need are additional head winds emanating from capitol hill. So we certainly are pleased that they seem to be coming around a proposal that would avoid exactly that. Youll also recall, jim, over the course of the last several month there is have been a couple specific requests this administration has made for funding some key National Security priorities. That includes funding for our effort to degrade and ultimately destroy isil. Its our understanding based on the top line review thats been done that there are substantial resources that have been committed to that effort. We are gratified by that youll recall the Administration Early last fall made a specific request for resources to deal with the ebola fight that i talked about earlier, both in terms of making sure we have the resources necessary to stop this outbreak in its tracks in west africa as well as improve readiness at medical facilities in the United States. Again, a top line review of the agreement does indicate that there are significant resources that are committed to that effort, we are certainly pleased by that. There are key Funding Proposals related to domestic prior s the that will benefit the middleclass. Just to take one per innocent example, there is funding that is continued for Early Childhood education programs, something that the president is going to talk about across the street in less than an hour. So we certainly are gratified that there is a commitment of resources for that important priority. On the other side of the ledger, republicans identified as their pryty to try to undermine the president s effort to reform our broken immigration system using executive actions and to cut carbon pollution. Again, based on a coursery review of that agreement it does not appear republicans were successful in that effort. So thats something were gratified by. This is a compromise proposal. Democrats and republicans have signed on to it and thats why well review. Im confident there will be things in here that we wont like. Well have to consider the whole package when we make a decision about whether or not to sign it so well keep you posted on that. Roberta . The bill contains significant rollbacks for doddfrank reforms. Im wondering what the white house makes of those rollbacks and whether the white house is worried that this is going to lead to wall street being more emboldened in terms of asking for rollbacks on these measures. Roberta, i cant comment on some of the specific proposals. Youve been listening to the White House Press secretary. When this briefing began he answered questions about the new cia Senate Intelligence Committee Report on the cia torture tactics that were used. He was asked a very key question. One of the central findings of this report is that the tactics that the cia used did not work. That the enhanced interrogations techniques did not provide intelligence that was crucial. The cia admitted as such. The white house, however, refused to weigh in on this. Josh ernest would not weigh in on whether the president thinks these interrogations techniques work or not. He simply said they undermine the moral authority of the u. S. Government. The white house not wanting to get in the middle of the fight between the Senate Democrats and the cia. He kept speaking about the fact that theres a vigorous, ongoing debate but wouldnt choose a side. Well be back in a moment. Sea captain theres a narratorstorm cominhe storm narrator that whipped through the turbine which poured. Surplus energy into the plant which generously lowered its price and tipped off the house which used all that energy to stay warm through the storm. Chipmunk theres a bad storm comin narrator the internet of everything is changing how energy works. Is your Network Ready . Intercourse thats painfulit. Due to menopausal changes its not likely to go away. On its own. So lets do something about it. 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Isnt as simple as just boiling an egg. Life takes energy. Energy lives here. A partisan pile of bull. Thats the blunt assessment of the Senate Intelligence committees scathing cia torture report by someone who reportedly created the very enhanced Interrogation Program. For years, James Mitchell has been tied to the controversial tactics used by the cia after september 11. Now he is speaking to cnn. He is defending what he did. He is defending the agency and he is slamming democrats for what he calls a smear campaign. Joining us is chris frates of cnn investigations and, chris, you spoke with James Mitchell. Interestingly enough, its a pseudonym used in the report. The name James Mitchell doesnt appear there but everyone knows or seems to know theyre talking about him. What does he say about all this . Good morning, john. Actually, James Mitchell is his real name. He is referred to in the report by a pseudonym and when i talked to James Mitchell, he couldnt confirm or deny that hes the psychologist named in that report because he has a nondisclosure agreement. But he had pretty strong feelings, calling the report a partisan bottle of bull. He used a much more colorful word than that which isnt suitable for tv. He said when the Interrogation Program was operating cia officials were in a running gun battle with al qaeda, a group they knew very little about and they did the best they could given the information they had, berman. So he and this other man, apparently the two of them devised this list of techniques, waterboarding, sleep deprivation among a bunch of other things that are equally as horrifying. Did he when you talked with him, even though he would not confirm or deny reports that he was that man, did he defend these methods . Yeah, michaela, he did seem to defend these interrogation techniques. He said nothing was done to those detainees that arent done to our servicemen and women by our own training programs. I think its a National Discussion. The administration and the people of the United States really have to ask themselves if whether in a situation like immediately after 9 11 they think its a good idea to let them lawyer up. He also said he think wes need to have a National Discussion about torture and whether we should allow these terrorists to lawyer up. Now he was a contractor, right . And there are allegations, reports, he was paid a lot of money. The firm was paid millions and millions of dollars to advise and oversee this interrogation process. What does he say about the reports claim that this whole thing from the cia had the approval of the administration . The president and also that congress was informed . Well, john, he says its despicable to suggest that the men and women who put their lives on the line after 9 11 would lie to the senate or to the president. And he said the report has a hindsight bias and he agrees with the cias assessment that the report is like playing a tuesday cross word puzzle with wednesdays answer key. And he says democrats are smearing the memory of those who put their lives on the line protecting this country. He was very, very firm and very angry about this report, john. Interesting to hear what he has to say now. Chris frates, great to have you with us. Appreciate it. Thank you. One of the key questions people are asking today is what did president george w. Bush know about the tactics that the report says the cia was using . The report says he was in the dark for years. Thats what it suggested, at least. Well discuss, next. Were fortunate to have men and women who work hard at the cia serving on our behalf. These are patriots and whatever the report says, if it did inishes their contributions to our country sittwe off base. Former president bush there speaking out on the senate cia torture report. It describes mock executions, sleep deprivation, slapping, punching, freezing showers. Detainees shackled for hours to a concrete floor. Now, the reports suggest the cia used these interrogation methods but that president bush was not told about it for years. Lets bring in josh rogan. Josh, youve written about this. Help us understand what the report says here. What was it that the president was not told and for how long . Thanks, great to see you. According to the report the senate said that the cia didnt brief the president on the details of the techniques until september, 2006, more than four years after the program started. What the cias response is that they tried brief the president but senior white house officials presented them from speaking president bush because they didnt want president bush to have that information and finally when president bush learned of the techniques he was uncomfortable with them. Especially ones that included stress positions, forcing detainees to soil themselves and lots of other gruesome things that the president didnt know about until way after the fact. Theres also reporting that Vice President dick cheney, National Security advisor condoleezza rice, they did know the details but they just kept the president out of the loop. They also kept rum rum, the secretary of defense and secretary of state colin powell out of the loop for over a year because they said, according to internal cia emails that powell would blow his stack if he knew about what was going on. That is an interesting, very interesting point. Heres the thing, once the president was made aware, as you mentioned, he was uncomfortable. But did he do anything to actively change course . To make changes, to tell people know, this is not how we in america do things . In fact, quite the opposite. We know in september, 2006, after the president got a full briefing he did reveal some of the details of the program to the public in a speech but he defended the program and in as late as 2007 when the techniques ended he was still saying that america didnt torture people. Theres interesting emails in the report from the cia where cia officials went to the white house and said to the white house hey, are you sure you want to say this . Do you know what were doing . We want to make sure you know what youre doing so if you say we dont torture people youre saying what we think youre saying. And the white house said no problem, go ahead, we know what youre doing. So even though president bush privately expressed discomfort and was privately kept out of the loop, publicly hes maintained support for the program and continues to do so for this day. In his book decision points doesnt the president say he did approve waterboarding . Which if its true he had some knowledge of what was going on before 2006 . Right, this is interesting, actually. Theres a dispute. Bushess memoir said they received some information about the program and approved the information he knew. In john rizzos book, he was the former acting general counsel of the cia, he said he wasnt sure bush knew what he was talking about so its not clear what bush knew when and where but the bottom line here is that the white house kept bush away from the sensitive details, some of the techniques and this is part of the committees overall point that the cia got approval from the Justice Department and the white house so they didnt tell them the worst stuff so that was not based on the real information. Interesting developments. Josh roge josh roe again, thank you very much. I dont expect you will hear from bush whether he knew or didnt. Its clear where he is on this and he will continue to support the cia for what he did. We may never know the real answer. Heres the question. Where do we go from here . You can tweet us your thoughts in the meantime. Well be right back. [ children yelling ] [ telephone rings ] [ shirley ] edward jones. This is shirley speaking. How may i help you . Oh hey, neill, how are you . How was the trip . [ male announcer ] with nearly 7 million investors. [ shirley ] hes right here. Hold on one sec. [ male announcer ]. Youd expect us to have a highly skilled call center. Kevin, neill holleys on line one. Ok, great. [ male announcer ] and we do. Its how edward jones makes sense of investing. Its how edward jones makes sense of investing. A woman who loves to share her passions. Grandma mary has atrial fibrillation, an irregular heartbeat not caused by a heart valve problem. That puts her at a greater risk of stroke. Rome . Sure before xarelto®, mary took warfarin, which required monthly trips to get her blood tested. But thats history. Back to the museum . 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Our jim acosta asked whether the intelligence led to the killing of Osama Bin Laden. Well, i think i agree with everything you said until the very end because the president s views on this are that even if this information did yield important National Security information, the damage that it did to our moral authority in the mind of this president means that those interrogation techniques should not have been implemented in the first place. The other thing that is true is it is impossible to know the counterfactual. Its impossible to know whether or not this information could have been obtained using tactics that are consistent with the Army Field Manual orror Law Enforcement techniques and that eventually enhanced intergigs techniques were not necessary to obtain that information. That is something that is unknowable. Thats not short of what senator feinsteins report concludes. I know there are people who have strongly held views on both sides. I stipulated that earlier. There is one thing that the president has concluded. There aror things we cant know but theres one thing the president knows. The president knows that continuing to employ these techniques descried in that report would only undermine one of the most powerful weapons in our arsenal to protect american National Security and that is the moral authority around the globe of the United States of americ america. Lets bring in our military analyst, Mike Hertling and former cia officer peter brooks. Peter is also a National Security expert with the heritage foundation. If i can start with you as a cia veteran. There seemed to be two real issues here. You just heard josh earnest talking about it. Do these enhanced interrogation techniques, do they work and is it worth it . Two separate questions. What do you think . Thats a tough question to answer. What youre talking about here is putting this in context of the need for timely information. There is plenty of information about how these techniques will not work. John mccain talked about that yesterday on the floor of the senate but the other problem, john, is the ticking bomb scenario. If you need this information that is possibly held by this individual right now you may have to go beyond developing a relationship with them over six months or a year to get that information. So thats the tough thing and we have to put this report in the context, push ourselves back to 9 11 and those dark days and the need to get intelligence to prevent future attacks. So its a very tough call and theres no easy answer to your question. General, im curious, you know all too well having served in those very dark days peter was mentioning, im curious what your reaction is to all of this if youre concerned about our men and women serving overseas, if this is going to put them in danger. What are your thought . I am, michaela. Its not only an issue of danger but an element of trust. I agree with the fact that this is contrary to what our National Values are and whether or not it cured whether or not it was useful or benefitted in terms of intelligence gathering, these are not things we should be doing. However it happened a very long time ago and we are picking at a scab right now while we here in active combat, active military operations around different parts of the world so im very concerned having i was in baghdad in n 2004 when the abu ghraib photos came out. We were in combat there and it certainly affected the situation there. Im concerned now as were seeing perhaps a little bit of the culmination of the isil forces in iraq and syria and successes in operations, what they that might do to that effort in the future. Of course there is a question as whether the tactics themselves were the problem or whether the knowledge of them was creating the situation. Peter, i want to ask you another question. One argument ive been hearing is this is essentially changing the rules of the game after the game for people who were in the cia one argument you hear is what if four years from now during another administration everyone decides that use of drones is something that should not be done or amounts to actions that should be condemned. Is that a sentiment you get from other cia officials . I think people are concerned about this and i can only imagine that the morale at langley is pretty low right now and theyre very concerned. These were people asked to do things on behalf of the United Statess National Security. They thought they were doing the right thing. They had legal approval for these sort of things. They were trying to General Electric information. The cia was committed to not letting another 9 11 happen again you bring up another question and there are many critics, including the left of president obama and his use of drones to take out terrorists as opposed to capturing them and trying them. So these are tough times, these are extraordinary times and the general makes a good point. We cant forget that were at war. We have tens of thousands of troops in afghanistan. Were fighting in iraq and syria and these are difficult and troubling times and we have to keep that in mind. General, a quick final thought. The fact is what he mentions, war is awful, people get killed innocent civilians get killed in the theater of war. Is this to be expected, some will ask . Well, certainly laws of war attempt to prevent atrocities and violations of human values so thats all part of the consideration of training young soldiers and thats why what we do in our interrogation you mentioned the interrogation manual 3452. Its a great manual to show how to question people. Again, if there were some rogue actions as the report indicates, notwithstanding whether or not it was a politicalization of a report, if there were rogue actions then you deal with those and fix them. Im not sure a public debate in these issues is the best recipe for moving to the future. It interesting. Very thoughtful conversation with the two of you. Thank you so much. Peter brooks, Lieutenant General mark hertling, pleasure to have you today. The Justice Department says it will not charge cia operatives for using the techniques mentioned in the report. Officials with the United Nations and other groups say they want to see justice. Could cia officers, even base officials be sued or prosecuted overseas . Stay with us. To help spread some holiday cheer. Before earning 1 cash back everywhere, every time; and 2 back at the grocery store. 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He admits the u. S. Did things that, quote, violated who we are as a people. So the question is, what now . One question is, could cia agents officials and Administration Officials face new legal exposure based on details that before now were state secrets . Joining us now, a former official at the u. N. And the state department. And he is an International Lawyer. Also joining us, our colleague justice reporter, evan perez. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. David, i want to read to you what the u. N. s appointee on human rights and counterterrorism said about this report. Quote, the u. S. Attorney general is under a legal duty to bring criminal charges, the individuals responsible for the criminal conspiracy revealed in todays report must be brought to justice and must face criminal penalties commensurate with the gravity of their crimes. David, what other avenues are there for prosecution if the Justice Department is not going to press charges . One of the impediments to bringing charges is too little was known about these enhanced interrogation techniques until the report was issued. Were over that threshold issue. Theres a summary report that details some of the techniques. However, the department of justice has said very clearly its not going to prosecute cia officials. And even if it were to reverse that decision, there could be immunity for those officials and for Administration Officials. There is the possibility of bringing civil litigation although immunity could apply in civil litigation in the u. S. As well. Theres also the possibility of prosecution or civil litigation in countries abroad, for instance in europe. There are cases pending in germany and in spain. But in order to bring those individuals to justice, they would actually have to travel to those countries. And theyre not going to do that anytime soon. Wasnt the chilean dictator in the same situation . People who are in the cia and who are involved in this, they say they know this possibility is out there. Oh, yeah, they definitely do. The chilean dictator example is why a lot of them are crossing some of these countries off their vacation list. John rizzo, the former top lawyer at the cia, addressed this very question with us yesterday. Heres what he had to say. Some of these governments, not north korea, but governments like spain and italy and france, very independent magistrates, anything is possible. Youre saying stay here in washington, d. C. . Im going to visit Yosemite National park. Yosemite is nice but the question is, you never know what some of these countries might do because you might have a magistrate or a judge, one of these prosecutors who will do something. Even if the charges dont stick, you still have to go through that. David, i want to talk about the report out of poland that the former president of poland acknowledged that his nation allowed u. S. Intelligence to use a facility on polish soil to interrogate and try to otherwise obtain information from sources, said they didnt know what was going on inside that facility. But then also said that this report makes the u. S. A weaker ally because other nations are not going to trust it. Im curious about why poland or this former leader would make this statement now. What is there to gain . Well, each of the countries that cooperated with the u. S. Have to figure out how to deal with this. Thats how the polar government is approaching it. As i understand it, they were not fully aware of exactly what happened. So theyre investigating what happened on their soil. And they need to come to terms with that and how to deal with the u. S. In the future. It is a very strong ally of the u. S. I dont think it will significantly impact that alliance. But it will probably impact how they deal with situations like this. And with respect to the potential for bringing legal action, poland is another place where legal action certainly would be possible, especially given that some of these tactics and activities took place on polar soil. Evan, we have time for about a tensecond answer to this question. You have great sources in the Justice Department. Any sign at all that they will change whats been their posture that they will not seek prosecution involved with this report . No, i really dont think so. They looked at it now a couple of times and the fact that theyve done this thorough investigation means if you try to do it again, that comes into play. You can only look at things a couple of different times before youve exhausted all of it. Thank you both so much for being with us. Thats it for us. Im michaela pereira. Im john berman. Legal view with Ashleigh Banfield starts after this quick break. Often enough, but thank you. S thank you mom for protecting my future. 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