Transcripts For CNNW CNN Tonight With Don Lemon 20190424

To save 30 on all the medications we carry. So go directly to petmeds. Com now. This is cnn tonight. Im don lemon. It is becoming clear with each passing day, since the release of the Mueller Report, that a constitutional crisis is looming between the white house and congress. The Washington Post is reporting tonight that President Trump says he is opposed to current and former aides testifying to congress, claiming that its unnecessary because the white house cooperated with the Mueller Investigation. The administration adopting a strategy of stonewalling house democrats. Cnn learning that they may try to prevent former White House Counsel Don Mcgahn from complying with a house subpoena. The Judiciary Committee requiring mcgahn to turn over documents as it investigates possible obstruction of justice and to testify next month. Well, tonight the judiciary chairman says the subpoena still stands and any claims by the white house of executive privilege would be one more example of obstruction by the trump white house. That as the treasury secretary for the second time, by the way, ignoring a deadline to turn over the president s tax returns. Treasury officials telling congress theyre still consulting with the Justice Department on the request and will make a final decision by may 6th. So stay tuned. Katherine ram be Catherine Rampell is here, ryan lizza, matt lewis. Good evening one and all. Thanks for dressing up, ryan. I appreciate it. So im going to start with you. Im on the road, man. I understand. So heres what the president is saying to the post, the Washington Post, about white house officials testifying before congress. He says, there is no reason to go any further, and especially in congress where it is very partisan, obviously very partisan. Lets think about this, right . Why would he have them cooperate . I mean hes got everything to lose and nothing to gain. So now what . Who is that for . Thats for you, the man with no tie. Oh, sorry. Well, look, executive privilege is my understanding and i am not a lawyer but sometimes play one on tv its similar to attorneyclient privilege, right . If you were my lawyer, don, and i talk publicly about things that were previously protected under attorneyclient privilege, theyre no longer privileged. So these people, like don mcgahn and his other white house aides, have already testified to the same issues, and those issues are now public in the Mueller Report. So i would be surprised if this gets litigated, if the courts see any executive privilege there. Now, that aside, that legal point aside, its also just, you know, trump trying to prevent this story from going forward, trying to Stonewall Congress with every, you know, method they can to sort of slow things down. Mmhmm. But legally id be surprised if this one stands up. In that vein, catherine, the president told the post that democrats should be satisfied with what the white House Counsel former white House Counsel, don mcgahn, and other officials told mueller. He said this. I allowed my lawyers and all the people to go and testify to mueller, and you know how i feel abo about that whole group of people that did the Mueller Report. I was so transparent. They testified for so many hours. They have all that information thats been given. Coy have taken the absolute opposite route. We do know the president wasnt particularly transparent. He never did an interview. Remember he answered those questions in written form, in which mueller in report says he wasnt satisfied with where he couldnt remember anything. Yeah, he didnt recall. Is that why hes taking this tactic with congress . Dont testify, and they dont have you on record. Look, this is simultaneously both the most thinskinned and thickical thickly cloaked administration i can remember. Its like theyre doing their darnedest to make sure the public doesnt learn anything thats going on in this administration, whether that means what the president s financial entanglements are, how they decide what members of his administration get to see the nations most sensitive state secrets. They dont want us to know any of this. The real question is what are they so afraid of the public finding out . What are they hiding . The public has a right to know whether the guy who is ostensibly working on behalf of the American People is in fact working on past of the American People or to line his own pocketbook. And we just dont have the information to answer any of those questions. Lets talk about that, matt. She said if theres nothing to hide, as the president says, why not cooperate with congress . Well, just like donald trump will lie when the truth will suffice, he will cover up things when there is no crime. We know that. At least there was no evidence of collusion, and yet donald trump utterly looked guilty, and i think honestly a lot of the reason that the Intel Community and the press we in the press were so convinced donald trump was guilty is that he acted exactly the way you would act if you had something to hide. And i think that right now we may be making sort of the same leap here. He doesnt want to reveal his taxes. He doesnt want anybody to testify. Im not convinced that thats look, im totally willing to believe that theres something hes hiding, but im also willing to believe that hes just a super secretive guy who has this philosophy that you dont that you troll people, that you look guilty, and that you basically just cover up whether theres anything to cover up or not. Ive got to say this before you jump in because facts are important. They didnt say there was no evidence of collusion in the report. They said they did not establish to a legal i know its a technicality, but it sounds like the president s talking points because they never said there was no evidence. But go on, catherine. So what i was going to say is that just because we dont have evidence, you know, that is provable of a crime, lets say, as it relates to conspiracy with russia doesnt necessarily mean that trump wasnt trying to keep us from learning other kinds of dodgy things that he engaged in, including in the many decades during which he ran his multinational business, in which he engaged in lots of suspicious transactions, including as i have talked about on this show before, paying in cash hundreds of millions of dollars for moneylosing golf courses, which, again, if you know anything about Real Estate Finance you know makes absolutely no sense. Either youre the worst possible Real Estate Investor in the history of real estate investing, or theres something fishy going on. So there are a lot of other things that he could have been covering up that we just dont know about because we havent seen his financials. We dont know who hes been getting money from, for example. We dont know who he still owes money to and on under what circumstances they can recall those loans. Are those, you know, sketchy oligarchs who maybe are pulling the strings . We just dont know. We dont know if hes making money off of the presidency. We dont know if hes engaging in other kinds of financial and tax fraud. Theres a reason why we have this multidecade long norm that president s disclose whats in their tax returns. So, ryan, listen. The president says democrats are simply using these investigations for political gains. Obviously lets be honest. That works on both sides because think about the benghazi investigations. It seems like every other month, we were like, theres another benghazi investigation . You know, five or six before that, this one found nothing. So is there some truth to that, what the president is saying . Yeah, theres always a little bit of politics, and sometimes a lot of politics going on when congress exercises its oversight function, and, you know, the other party is usually not very happy when they do that. Legally that is not really a leg to stand on of course, right . Wheth what you think the political motivations of the other party are. Just on this trump covering up, is he covering up because he has something to hide, or is it just, you know, who he is . Im sort of in between matt and catherine on this. I think matt is correct that trump does just by instinct, you know, he doesnt want to reveal anything. I mean its, you know, its like Saddam Hussein and the wmds, right . He didnt have weapons of mass destruction, but he acted like someone who did and it made him seem guiltier. But at the same time, i think catherine is right, and as they pointed out as the Mueller Report pointed out, just because there was not they did not find an underlying crime of a criminal conspiracy with the russians, mueller pointed out chapter and verse the other reasons someone would want to have obstructed the investigation, why someone would want to be acting like a guilty person. He could have been worried about other people close to him who were vulnerable to being investigated and vulnerable to a criminal indictment. He could have been worried about the investigation, you know, going into other things, you know . He said that it would be a red line. He said it would be a red line just to remind everyone if mueller looked into his personal finances or his business activities. Yeah. Yeah. So mueller laid that out in the bruobstruction part of the report. On the obstruction part and on the conspiracy and coordination part they also talked about the reasons why they didnt do it. Thats why, you know, i think its important to point out to people that, you know, the technicality that i pointed out with matt. But, listen, lets bring matt back in because one way the white house, matt, is trying to rebrand the Mueller Report is by pushing an investigation into the Mueller Investigation. This is what elena plott of the atlantic is reporting. She is saying one former white house official told me that an investigation would allow Trump Campaign staffers to frame their message in much the same way they did in 2016, claiming that the system is rigged against them. Everyone needs a boogeyman, and this gives them something to hang on to, the former official said. I dont know that everyone and their mother knows who Robert Mueller is, but if you told a trump supporter that democrats had used phony information to launch an investigation into their guy, it would absolutely fire them up. Winning strategy, matt, for 2020 . Yeah, probably. I mean, look, talk about the moxie that this guy has. Most people would be like, whew, you know, we dodged a bullet. We survived the Mueller Report. They didnt find anything. And then they would be like, lets calm things down now. Is that moxie or just a total lack of shame . Trumps instinct is to constantly fight, to go on the attack and to accuse other people of the thing that he was accused of. Remember, fake news was originally something macedonian teenagers that were putting out disinformation to help trump. Trump turns that word around. Remember, trump was the first guy who attacked the electoral college. Its sort of ironic that whatever it is that trump is accuseds of, he will always fod a way. I call it projection. The real russian collusion is the hillary campaign. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it, one and all. Jared kushner would like you to believe that russias election interference was no big deal. Is he deliberately trying to mislead you . Itso chantix can help you quit slow turkey. Along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. With chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting. Chantix reduces the urge so when the day arrives, youll be more ready to kiss cigarettes goodbye. When you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. Stop chantix and get help right away if you have changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions, seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking, or lifethreatening allergic and skin reactions. Decrease alcohol use. Use caution driving or operating machinery. Tell your doctor if youve had Mental Health problems. The most common side effect is nausea. Quit smoking slow turkey. Talk to your doctor about chantix. They have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps. Com print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the Amazing Services of the post office only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps. Com tv and never go to the post office again senior president ial adviser Jared Kushner making his first Public Comments since a redacted version of Robert Muellers report was released, and he wants you to believe that the Mueller Investigation was more harmful to this country than the russians election interference. Quite frankly the whole thing is just a big distraction for the country. You look at what russia did, buying some facebook ads to try to sow dissent and do it and its a terrible thing. But i think the investigations and all of the speculation thats happened for the last two years has had a much harsher impact on our democracy than a couple facebook ads. Lets discuss now. John dean and Garrett Graff are here. Good evening, gentlemen. John, i want to start with you. One of the very first lines in muellers report reads, the russian government interfered in the 2016 president ial election in sweeping and systematic fashion. Yet heres Jared Kushner saying that its no big deal. Is he being purposefully misleading about what the russians did . When i first read his remarks, i wasnt sure. Then i watched him on the clip that you just used, and he had obviously planted that seed in his head and then found the opportunity to use it. And i think its a devastating misstatement. Its misleading. Its absolutely incorrect. The man has either not read the report, or hes intentionally trying to mislead, and hes not in a good position to be doing that. Mmhmm. Garrett, listen, he says a couple of facebook ads, but Facebook Says russians reached 126 Million People from 2015 to 2017, and thats just one social media platform. If you look at all these groups and how many followers they had, i read it in the open at the top of this show, in the previous hour. Mueller found the influence was huge and that its ongoing. Absolutely. And we saw in an indictment in october actually by the National Security division of the Justice Department of another Internet Research agency employee, one of their accountants who was engaged in midterm interference. But, remember, were not just talking about facebook ads. Were talking about active information influence operations that saw them helping to organize rallies to hire americans to protest and to conduct political protests in the united states. Were talking also, dont forget, about the secondary side of this, which is the active cyberattacks by the military Intelligence Unit gru that saw them steal the emails from democratic officials, dump them through wikileaks, a channel that the Trump Campaign was all too happy to accept the help of, and really drive the narrative in the Media Coverage of the campaign day after day after day. This was a devastating attack, not to mention their attempts to actually penetrate the american voting system, which according again to the Mueller Report, they may have actually succeeded in doing in at least one florida county. This was a massive attack. It was one of the largest, most successful intelligence operations weve ever seen carried out, and the fact that you have a senior white house official who, by the way, still cant get a security clearance permanently, is deeply troubling that this is what hes out there spouting in public. I printed out your article. Its in wired, and its 14 Mueller Report takeaways that you might have missed, garrett. So lets just walk through a few that you point out that we learned. There are 12 still secret cases that mueller has farmed out to other prosecutors, and you say one particular redaction that were showing up on the screen right now. There it is, is sure to be about donald trump jr. How do you know about that, and what can you tell us . Well, so this comes to one of the authorizing letters that rod rosenstein, the acting attorney general, gave to Robert Mueller to conduct the investigation. It appears that there are five or six individuals that were specifically named to be investigated by Robert Mueller. And the way that this redaction shows, actually the next line is what gives it away. The last name, something after s, and theres two letters that come after on the next line that are also redacted. So you have a pretty good sense that probably means its a jr. Interesting. John, a lot of people expected don junior to be indicted. This has to be a prime example of why democrats insist on seeing the unredacted report and all the other underlying evidence that they want to see. I think thats correct. I dont understand why the republicans dont realize the importance of seeing the unredacted report. Some of them are going down to the Justice Department apparently, looking at it, where theyre coming out very ziplipped about what theyre finding in the limited unredactions, in other words, everything but the grand jury material thats been redacted is being made available. But i think the democrats are right to insist that they not have to walk to the Justice Department, go to a special room, see the report, read what they can. They cant take notes. Its a very awkward, very obstructionlike kind of procedure. So hopefully the democrats will prevail, but im doubtful if they will. Why . Well, its because of the weakness of the congressional subpoena. There are only three ways to enforce it, don. One is to use the house jail and throw somebody in with the capitol police. That hasnt been used since the civil war era. The other is to go to a criminal proceeding. The u. S. Attorney in the District Of Columbia will not take it, wont do anything with it. The third is a civil proceeding. Those take years. That would be after the 2020 election wed probably get the results. So trump knows exactly what hes doing by stalling. Yeah. Gentlemen, thank you. Appreciate your time. Mayor Pete Buttigieg facing questions about why he forced the resignation of the First Black Police chief in south bend, indiana. How hes explaining himself now and what some secret tapes have to do with it. danny let me get this straight. After a long day of hard work. 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The secret tapes are phone conversations between four white officers, including a top detective, recorded by an internal Police Department system. The officers made derogatory racial slurs, including comments about the citys First Black Police chief. Thats according to a lawsuit by one of the only people who has heard those recordings. Once chief Darryl Boykins heard about the conversations in 2011, he asked the recordings continue. Buttigieg forced him to resign because of the way the chief handled the situation, causing an uproar in a time of racial tension in south bend and across the country. The Trayvon Martin situation had just happened in february. Chief boykins situation happens in, i believe, march of that same year, 2012. And our nation is infuriated, especially africanamericans are infuriated. It just raised a lot of questions and as well created some mistrust behind a lot of Different Things happening at the same time. Reporter buttigieg later rehired, then demoted the chief. The controversy led to an extremely complicated chain of lawsuits that have gone on for years now with litigants and their lawyers prevented from speaking about whats on those tapes. The former Police Chiefs attorney has seen a summary of the recordings and says whats alleged could raise questions about white cops interacting with black suspects. If weve got the head of our metro homicide unit is dropping racial epithets, how long is it going to be before the Innocence Project comes in here and starts looking at all these prior convictions . Reporter the lawyer for the officer whos were recorded say theres nothing racist on the tapes, but continues to fight their release. Regina Williams Preston is on the city council and is taking her own city to court, demanding once and for all the tapes be played. This mystery around these tapes thats been looming over the community for so many years, its like a cloud because every time theres some kind of incident, you know, it just kind of rips that bandaid off and brings us back to this question, is there clear evidence of some sort of racism and bias within our Police Department . Reporter as for the mayor, he says he has not heard the tapes and will not release them without a courts decision because he doesnt want to violate wiretap laws, which leaves him trying to explain his actions as he campaigns for president. I was frankly a little bit slow to understand just how much anguish underlay the communitys response to this because for people in the community, it wasnt just about weather we were right or wrong to be concerned about the federal wiretap act. It was about whether communities of color could trust that Police Departments had their best interests at heart. Reporter don, these tapes may be old, but this issue is not, especially in south bend. The city council there, called the common council, continues to press both the city and its mayor to get these tapes released, and just this week a judge has ruled that the Common Councils case can move forward, meaning we may be closer to finding out exactly what these White Police Officers said on tape when they were recorded. Don . Drew griffin, thank you very much for that. Appreciate it. Weve got a lot more to break down here. Is the criticism of mayor buttigieg fair . Well talk about that next. The nature of a virus is to change. Move. Mutate. Today, lifechanging technology from abbott is helping hunt them down at their source. Because the faster we can identify new viruses, the faster we can get to stopping them. The most personal technology, is technology with the power to change your life. Life. To the fullest. Pete buttigieg is rising in the polls, but he acknowledges that he needs to reach out to the africanamerican community, africanamerican voters, and his handling of a Police Matter in south bend may be an important factor in his support among black voters. Lets discuss now. Bakari sellers, hilary rosen, alice stewart, good evening. Bakari, why is this becoming such an important issue for mayor Pete Buttigieg now . Well, i think first and foremost, hes becoming a serious contender. I think every poll you see hes in the top tier. People are starting to comb his record ask see what he was for and how he did as mayor of south bend. This is a very fair issue. I think all the candidates, whether or not its Kamala Harris as District Attorney and attorney general or whether or not its Amy Klobuchar when she was a prosecutor as well are going to have to reconcile their records and their issues on race in todays climate. And so mayor buttigieg is going to have to respond to these questions about the firing of the police chief. Hes going to have to respond to any questions about race that simmer up from south bend. But if i did have one piece of advice for the campaign, it would also be that the mayor should tout some of the things he did positively for people of color in south bend, if there are any. Im sure there are. He should do that. He should also be proactive about laying out policy for africanamerican voters that he wants to do when hes president of the united states. I think all of thats fair game and something he should do. So, listen, anderson questioned him about that last night, hillary. So far, he has been light on policy. He has a short legislative record as having only held Elective Office as mayor. Thats an important job. You have to balance the books. Youre the head of government. Is this increased scrutiny of his past this is to be expected, especially if youre running for president. Its going to get worse. Well, it is going to get worse because everybody has a thing in this campaign, and people are going to have to deal with whatever their thing is. Look, i think that mayor pete has had an extraordinary run actually and being quite clever in his responses when asked questions. He has a unique way of looking at things, the way he talks about being gay as a gift from creator and the way he talks about unity and the way he talks about middle america. I was surprised actually at his lack of touch on this question that anderson asked and then the audience member asked about whats going on in the police chief because hes been dealing with this for years. You know, you would think he would start that answer with saying, like, if there is any racism in my Police Department, i want to root it out. Ive always wanted to root it out, and ive always committed to making sure that we have a police force that works for all of the community. But he didnt do that. He started talking about the federal wiretapping laws and the judicial system and all this other stuff that was kind of irrelevant to peoples concerns. I want to bring this up now because you mentioned it. So, alice, i know youre raring to go, but stand by. This is for hilary. So zerlina maxwell, a political analyst, and shes an analyst on another network. She says, i am the same age as mayor pete, and i would never be able to run for president and say that ill fill you all in on my policy proposals later because its minutia. She says, wtf is that, and im seriously asking. I think that resonates when i read that because thats what a lot of people are asking, and they ask the same question about beto going around the country, giving these platitudes and not really talking about policy, and the same thing for mayor pete. Imagine if it was a woman on that stage or a person of color on that stage, and they were asking about policy, and they said, well, they dont really matter right now. Go ahead, hilary, what do you think . I think what we have seen in this campaign is honestly that, you know, women have been in the forefront with big policy proposals, and that is clear. Look, i think that, you know, people are allowed to put their policy proposals out when theyre ready, and he doesnt has a lot of National Policy experience, and hes got to admit that. Hes got to say that that you know, hes got to figure out how to turn that into a positive. Maybe its a good strategy that hes not committed to anything. Look, donald trump didnt put his policies out for, you know, the entire campaign, and he got elected. So i dont think its so much about in his position, hes not going to have the depth of policy experience that Kamala Harris or Elizabeth Warren is going to have, so pretending to is a mistake. What he should be doing is saying these are my values. This is what i believe and this is my record. Stand by because i got to get alice in. Sure. Alice, lets talk about this, and if you want to talk about whatever or go back, you can. I just want to bring this up because this is the other side of the argument. I just want to play something from what president obama, the former president said warning democrats recently. Watch this. One of the things i do worry about sometimes among progressives in the united states, maybe its true here as well, is a certain kind of rigidity where we say, oh, im sorry, this is how its going to be. Then we start sometimes creating whats called a circular firing squad where you start shooting at your allies because one of them is straying from purity on the issues. So, listen, i think the former president , alice, makes a very good point there, but im not sure if its applicable to Pete Buttigieg because thats the whole reason that youre running. People go to town halls and watch because they want to know what your policies are. Is that wrong, or should he be worrying about a circular firing squad . Well, this is what happens when you go from a long shot to a legitimate candidate like mayor pete has been experiencing. And, look, when you experience a bump like he has and youre gaining momentum, you automatically get a target on your back. And this is welcome to the whackamole aspect of president ial politics. This happens on the left and the right side, and heres what hes doing, which i think is smart for someone like him that doesnt have the money or name i. D. That a lot of others do. He made this strategic decision to tell his personal story first and then roll out the policies. And i will say this. He made, i think, a wise town hall move by rolling out his policies in a portal on his website during the town hall and making that announcement. That is what i think is a smart thing to do and slowly rolling out his policies and letting people get the chance to know him and then his policies. With regard to questions about this police chief, i think he handled it well. I think the questions are certainly legitimate. This is an issue that has been very controversial in his city, but he made a very good distinction last night to make sure and point out that this didnt have anything to do with the color of the chiefs skin, but more along the confidence that the mayor had in his ability to do the job as police chief. And i think he answered that question. He put it to bed, and he understands that it will continue to come up, but i think he handled it well. Bakari, go on. First of all, it doesnt put it to bed because if there are issues of systemic bias, then we need to know what his plan is to root that out and what he did as mayor to root that out. Hes still mayor today and how he would fix that problem and lead a department of justice or choose an attorney general that would make sure that we dont have those biases in his law enforcement. But let me also say this. I do say that there is a great deal of sexism in the way that this race is being covered because you have individuals like a Kamala Harris or like an Elizabeth Warren. Elizabeth warren is running circles around all the boys in the race in terms of policy, and i just think that has to be said. I think anyone watching this race can see that, and i think that both senator harris and senator warren are doing yeomans work on policy. But every time representative orourke jumps on top of a table, then were talking about his charisma and how hes making eye to eye contact and all of these other things. And i just think that we have to watch the way we cover this. But i will say this about mayor pete you got to watch this show more because we said that last hour. We talked about what Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris i was getting makeup, don. You need to look pretty. Go on, please. One of the other things about mayor pete, and listen, he does like the policy depth, and i hope especially on issues dealing with people of color, he listens and learns and maybe black voters will have patience for that. Thats another conversation. But i actually compare him and listen closely. In terms of the wave he is very plainspoken, in terms of the wait he communicates his values, its eerily reminiscent of bill clinton. I think what voters are getting from him is somebody who has this oxford degree and this great deal of intellect. But he talks to you in a very plain, folksy way that makes you comprehend those things. I think thats his value. The lack of depth hes displaying in terms of these policy points is something hopefully he will fix along the way, but i think that is the attributing factor to his rise. I do think the comparisons with bill clinton are fair in terms of the way he communicates with people. All righty. I got to run. If you can do it quick, hilary. I was going to say on the circumstance lal firing squad, thats what you essentially have in a democratic primary is people have to point out their differences. I love barack obama, but thats actually how he got first elected in 2008 when he challenged the purity of the Democratic Party on the iraq war vote of hillary clinton. So that is actually how you do it. Yeah. Thank you all. Thanks. Appreciate it. Well be right back. [ ] check your free Credit Scores at creditkarma. Heres to progress. They have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps. Com print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the Amazing Services of the post office only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps. Com tv and never go to the post office again audible members know listening has the power to change us make us better parents, better leaders, better people. And theres no better place to listen than audible. With audible you get a credit good for any audiobook and exclusive fitness and wellness programs. And now, youll also get two Audible Originals titles exclusively produced for audible. Automatically roll your credits over to the next month if you dont use them, and if you dont like a book just swap it for free. Enjoy 100 ad free listening in the car, on your phone or any connected device. And when you switch a device pick up right where you left off. With our commitment free guarantee, theres never been a better time to start listening to audible. The most inspiring minds, the most compelling stories, the best place to listen. To start your free 30day trial, text listen9 to 500500 today. So democrats are debating whether incarcerated felons should be able to vote from prison. Even convicted murderers and terrorists. Last night on our cnn town hall, senator Kamala Harris said, i think we should have that conversation. But today she changed her mind. Watch this. We right now have got a lot of work to do with the people in our country who have served their time and have been prohibited from voting. But, you know, do i think that people who commit murder, people who are terrorists should be deprived of their rights . Yeah, i do. Im a prosecutor. I believe that in terms of there has to be serious consequence for the most extreme types of crimes. So lets discuss now. Joey jackson is here, areva martin, the author of make it rain. Good evening. So, joey, a lot of people were surprised to hear the way she answered last night, especially as a former prosecutor. Now shes changing her mind, or shes correcting what she said. Shes sounding more like a prosecutor now . Look, its her right to change her mind, her right tow have her opinions and point of view. The bottom line is i think we have to appeal to sanity. We could talk about criminal justice reform, how the system disproportionately affects people of color and what we need to do to prevent that. We could talk about alternatives to incarceration, but when we Start Talking about allowing terrorists and murderers to vote from prison, i think weve gone off the deep end. My opinion, certainly other people can differ from that. Im worried about people who are out there now, right . We have people who are not incarcerated who are not voting. When we talk about people who have transgressed society, i think it becomes a problematic. Last point, don, and thats this. When you look at putting people in jail and you look at the tenets of the criminal justice system, its about punishment, deterrence and rehabilitation. Theres certainly a place of rehabilitati rehabilitation. Theres certainly a place for people to come back into society to prove their worth. I think you have to deter people because at the end of the day on the other end of a criminal is a victim. Thats a problem. You say prisoners voting. People voting while theyre in prison, you say thats i think thats an extreme. Thats not something i could get onboard with. Areva, you disagree . Well, i think, don, the default on this argument, people always go to the terrorists and the murderers. Lets talk about the nonterrorists and the nonmurderers and lets talk about a state like South Carolina where africanamericans make up 27 of the population but 60 of the prison population. Lets talk about the fact that africanamericans are five times more likely to be incarcerated than nonafricanamericans. So to me, you cant talk about this subject and divorce the whole race issue from it, and people in prison, if were going to be involved in trying to get to a more humane criminal justice system, i think we have to have this discussion about people in prison having the right to vote. Already in two states, in maine and vermont, everybody in those states, including prisoners, have the right to vote. And then look at what happens when we count prisoners. Stat states prisons count the people in those prisons and they take credit for those prisoners in their states and they use those prisoners in order to gain more, you know, representation as it relates to census counts. So if were going to use those prisoners to gain that kind of representation, to gain that population, then we have to think about, you know, what should be fair in terms of those prisoners having the right to participate in government . Just because theyre incarcerated does not mean theyre inhumane. So stripping people from fundamental rights like the right to vote but specifically in that question, we asked even people who are as reprehensible as the boston bombers or people who, you know, abuse children and so on, and Bernie Sanders said yes. Just because they are horrible people doesnt mean that the constitution doesnt apply to them. But theres state rights and on and on, but i dont want to go down that rabbit hole. Kamala harris said last night this is a discussion. This is a question that was asked of Bernie Sanders and somehow Kamala Harris is being saddled with it. I think everyone should be saddled with it. If youre running for president , you should have some ideology and some view as to what society should be, what prisoners rights should be. I dont want to limit the discussion to terrorists and murderers. How do you distinguish . Well, you make the distinction, and i dont want to talk for anyone but myself. But when you talk about take ago way voting rights, i think people agree terrorists and murderers shouldnt have them. B if you want to talk about how we address the issue of disproportionately affecting people of color, why theyre arrested in the first place, overaggressive policing, the dynamics of sentencing, we should have that discussion. But i do think there needs to be consequences because there are victims who have been victimized. And, you know, what are we going to do as a society . They had the opportunity to answer that in that way last night and did not. He simply said that i think the constitution applies to all people even if theyre and i think voters will make their judgments as to whether thats the appropriate ideology to have. Were out of time. Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues. The president says he doesnt want white house aides testifying to congress. Democrats stone walled as they look for information on russia, finances and more. Advanced warning of the easter bombings in sri lanka. Is the threat really over . Shots fired. 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