Politics today. And cracking the code on kiev. We will understand who is who and whats what on the ukrainian side of this story. But first, heres my take. Donald trump finally got to see the kind of military pa ride ra parade he longed for. It was in beijing, not washington. In 2018 trump directed the pentagon to put on a lavish show of arms to demonstrate americas might. When news of the cost got out, an estimated 92 million, he substitu stopped the plan. President trump xi jinping put on a show commemorating the communist rule with floats, planes, and a Nuclear Capable missile that could evade american missile defenses. As xi inspected troops, he shouted hello comrades. They shouted back hello leader. In many ways president xi has increased the states role in the economy, tightened political control and repression and embraced a rerival of mowism. While a pair of political scientists recently conducted 77 in depth interviews with chinese citizens and concluded that some do, indeed, have a hankering for the good old days. The scholars describe this as a reflective nostalgia before there was a whirlwind of change in every aspect of chinese society. Some chinese yearn to make china great again. The revived celebration of the ideology, songs and doctrines has struck many westerners as bizarre. It was plunged chinese into crises. But the communist party appears to have recognized that in times of ceaseless change, an embrace of nostalgia can be useful. A central aspect of the rerival has been the return to a cult of personality. Xi abolished term limits and generally dispensed with the idea of collective leadership. All this marks a stunning reversal from the vision for china. He initiated the 1980s reforms that have created chinas modern economy. He openly acknowledged maos greatest failures including the cultural revolution. Dung blamed the insistence on naming his successor and lifetime tenure and explained none of it would be permitted in the new china. President xi has ignored the warnings. Americans largely see china as a monolith, an image encouraged by the communist party and the grand parades. In fact, its a vast complex society going through great transformation. Xi is trying to hold it together and maintain control over a Dynamic Society without provoking a backlash. Thats why with all the military power on display, xi has been weary about using any of it to quell the riots in hong kong. Societies that are confident enough to criticize their leaders relentlessly, to mock military parades and look honestly at all aspects of the past often look messy, chaotic and divided. But perhaps in the longrun, they have a deeper resilience and stability. For more, go to cnn. Com fareed and read my Washington Post column this week. Lets get started. Its a rare pleasure to interview two of americas finest elder states people at once, but that is exactly the opportunity i had this week when i sat down with Collin Powell and madeleine albright. Both of them, of course, served as secretaries of state. Powell under president george w. Bush, albright under bill clinton. I was invited to interview on a stage in front of a group of citizens, members of the military and first responders. Lets begin with general powell talking about all the tu multisurrounding the whistleblower and the phone call around the president of the United States and ukraine. We have this situation in washington with the preliminary investigation being done by the house of representatives under mrs. Pelosi, and you just got to ask yourself, where does this all go . Well, its going to go the constitutional way. She is following the constitution and the law, and shes created an organization within the house of representatives to look into these things. And thats what we ought to do. But its hard to look into it when the other side in the white house is cursing out everybody. Calling a member of congress a traitor. Calling a guy who wrote this that hes something wrong with him. He didnt write it. He had a lawyer write it for him. Or hes a spy. No, hes not a spy. Hes an Intelligence Officer somewhere in the United States government who sat down and wrote this out. He didnt slip it to a newspaper. He didnt go on television and discuss it. He put it into the system like he was supposed to do. J. You think hes a patriot . Sure he is. Any reason hes not a patriot . I used to see some of these things when they came in over the transom through the objection means of getting something up. And i think he is a patriot. I dont see anything to suggest hes doing anything that is improper. And as you know, his paper has now come out after going through all the channels. He didnt break free and go talk to the press. He let the system hand itself. The paper he put out has a lot of consistency with what a lot of white house put out. We need to get the inquiry done as quickly as possible and stop calling people traitors and calling them spies and using all of these names of degradation when all were trying to do is find the answers. Lets cooperate in the congress and get an answer to it and move it on. Do you think nancy pelosi is doing the right thing . Absolutely, and i think it was very interesting in listening to her when she talked about this. I thought she was very measured and serious. Talked about the constitution, and saw it as a process. I think it wasnt easy. I think that nothing is easy in terms of making a decision like that. But i think she respects the institution. I think we both have talked about the importance of the institution and the constitution. There is its set up in a way that congress has a responsibility here. And i think the question is the one you asked, what was this phone call about . It is possible that a president will make a mistake in talking to some other leader on an issue that is state managed which is why, in fact, you have other people on the phone and you can say you might want to have worded that differently and have somebody follow up. This had nothing to do with state business as far as and nobody kind of said anything about it except this man or woman that has been the whistleblower. What do you think the Republican Partys responsibility is . Youre a lifelong republican. I wouldnt quite say that. Let me put it differently. The Republican Party desperately wanted you to be its president ial candidate thats not true either, but okay. Let me try it another way. Some did. No. You were a very important figure in the Republican Party. Yes. Whats there im actually right. Im not going to argue the case. As such an important republican, do you worry that the party is putting party or maybe even trump before country . Let me start by saying i had no political affiliation during my first 35 years in government in the army. As a career military army, i had no party. It was only when i left and there was attention being give ton me about running for politics that i said no, its not me. And i identified myself as a republican. But i also made it clear to people that i was a republican who was Ronald ReagansNational Security adviser. I was a republican who worked with George Herbert walker bush and worked for george w. Bush. Im a moderate republican who believes that we should have a strong Foreign Policy, Strong Defense policy. But we have to look out for our people. And we ought to work hard to make sure were one country, one team. And so on that basis, i called myself a republican. But in the state of virginia, you really are nothing. You can be anything you want any day of the week. What do you think to answer your question, the Republican Party has got to get a grip on itself. Right now Republican Leaders and members of the congress, both senate and house, are holding back. Because theyre terrified of what will happen, any one of them if they speak up. Will they lose a primary . I dont know why thats such a disaster, but will they lose a primary . So they need to get a grip. And when they see things that are not right, they need to Say Something about it. Because our Foreign Policy is in shambles right now in my humble judgment. I see things happening that are hard to understand. A couple weeks ago the president put a circle around southeast alabama, saying its going to get hit by a hurricane. He put it on top of the meteorology prediction. The meteorologists said no, and in my time, in her time, one of us would have gone to the president and said mr. President , you screwed up. Weve got to fix it and well put out a correction. You know what they did . They ordered the Commerce Department to go out and back up whatever the president said. This is not the way the country is supposed to run. And congress is one of the institutions that should be doing something about this. All parts of congress. The media has a role to play. We all have a role to play. Weve got to remember [ applause ] weve got to remember that all of these pieces are part of our government. Executive branch, congress, supreme court, and the state. We have to remember the constitution started with we the people, not me the president. Next on gps, more with secretaries albright and powell. Ill ask them about the Foreign Policy of this scandal engulfing america. About ukraine and the struggle with its bear of a neighbor, russia. Thats what happens in golf nothiand in life. Ily. Im very fortunate i can lean on people, and that for me is what teamwork is all about. You cant do everything yourself. You need someone to guide you and help you make those tough decisions, thats Morgan Stanley. 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Memory support brand. You can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. Back now to my interview with former secretaries of state Collin Powell and madeleine albrig albright. I talked to them as part of the jefferson series of lectures. Talk a little bit about what russia is doing in ukraine. This whole scandal over the last few weeks at the heart of it is a country, ukraine, desperately trying to create its own independence and desperately trying to survive against a fairly constant brauj of attacks. Most countries dont change their geographical position. Russia did. Theyre not as big as then a economy is bad, but theyre being run by a kgb officer. He has a plan which is how to undermine the democracies in central and Eastern Europe and in other places. I think we have to be aware of that. And ukraine is the example of it where it actually became taking land and the question is how we react to it. They also are expanding their influence in the middle east. All of a sudden they are really players there, and i think that its it was a gift to them in this National Security strategy to make them equivalent to china, but they really are out there militarizing information, trying to divide us from our allies. And i am concerned about what theyre doing. When the president froze the military aid to ukraine, you know that that struggle, do you think the ukrainians worried that something had changed that american Foreign Policy had changed or that they accept the president s argument or trying to get money as well . I have to say i thought the Obama Administration didnt do enough about ukraine, frankly. And so when the trump people began to talk about doing something for ukraine, i thought that was the right thing to do. Its very hard to tell how the ukrainians interpreted it. And i think they did see it as okay, so were now back in the soup without any help, and i the russians are using a variety of ways to undermine the stability of the ukrainians and generally, and i do think we need to watch out for that. And the fact that the president thinks that he can play with it in that particular way, i think is what is dangerous. I certainly agree with madeli madeline with respect to russia and what its doing, but its mostly soft little touches. Theyre doing military stuff in syria. In other places theyre doing things. What theyre doing with Cyber Security and doing with those kinds of tools is to gain influence around europe and every place they can in europe. Thats what the chinese have been doing with their initiative. They you said, but its not just influence. That is an economic giant theyre putting in place. And to go from china all the way through the channel into london. And so they are doing things that are exciting. That are attracting people, buying them influence, some of them are going broke with the chinese deal they get, but nevertheless, what is our equivalent to Something Like that . Were cutting foreign aid, because they dont contribute enough. Yes, they do. Or they dont give anything to ukraine. Were the only ones. You look at the numbers, our european friends have give an lot more to ukraine than we have. And so weve got to see this thing realistic, and not always think that theres a war coming. But at the same time being ready for it. I always like to be ready for anything that comes along. But at the same time lets use our common sense to see what really is good or not good. What is the thing that gives you the most hope when you look around the world, when you look at America Today . What is the thing you hold onto . In my book and by the way, theres no speech or book ever written that doesnt quote robert frost. So in my book i say the older i am, the younger are my teacher. And what gives me hope for the young people. I think that they really are very forwardleaning, looking, gretta, a little swedish girl, what guts it took to go to the u. N. To tell them what jerks they are. And i know my students, i find very interesting. And that they work hard. I think the thing that i would like to make sure of is that the young people are engaged. That they dont just think it will happen. That their smarts and their capabilities. What gives me hope is the next generation. I have confidence in the american people. Ive seen bad times in this country. This is not the worst time ive lived through. I still think when i was going to vietnam the first time and president kennedy was killed the day i came home on my first tour. Four years later Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther king were killed. We had race riots and drugs and a recession. And the Vice President of the United States resigned in disgrace. If that wasnt bad enough, the president of the United States resigned in disgrace. And the soviet union and china were saying this is exactly what linden said would happen. But guess what. We returned to our base bis. In came jerry ford, a simple midwesterner never elected to be president of the United States, and he sort of stabilized us. He used to trip down steps a lot, but we loved it. You know . Jerry, youre just like me. You know . He was one of us. He stabilized the country. Took a big risk by pardoning nixon and jimmy carter came along. Some difficulties but we were moving in the right direction. And then one of the president s who i really, really treasure was ronald reagan. And he just came in and said its morning in america. You know . Its morning again in america. And we said yes, and we sort of followed that and picked up the baton again. Were going with it. But thats not whats happening now. Everything is a war. Everything is a fight. Everything is a disruption in congress. Congress cant get its work done because it gets disrupted and they cant agree. And this is a dangerous time for us. But, you know, i believe in the american people. They have more judgment than we sometimes give them credit for. And they will fix it. As long as they know where to go to help fix it and how to get it done. And i think they have that inherent knowledge, and so i believe in us. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, fareed. And our thanks to the new Albany Foundation for hosting that event. Next on gps, well dig deeper into the ukrainian side of the story. Ann is back to make sense of it all. How do you make red lobsters endless shrimp even hotter . You bring back Nashville Hot oh yeah its back. Crispy shrimp. Tossed in a spicy rub. And drizzled with sweet amber honey. More shrimp more ways. Endless shrimps just fifteen ninety nine. Hurry in. Pain happens. Saturdays happen. Aleve it. Aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. My bladder leak underwear. Orried someone might see so, i switched. To always discreet boutique. Its shapehugging threads smooth out the back. So it fits better than depend. And no one notices. Always discreet. We learned much more about the ukraine side of the whistleblower sorry this week. To help us make sense of all of this, im joined again by ann applebaum, a Foreign Affairs columnist for Washington Post. Shes the author of red famine stalins war on ukraine. Ann, why is ukraine playing such a big role in all of this . Like, if you step back, is there what explains this, you know, why are we why did ukraine become such a large part of this story . Its very important to remember that donald trump brought ukraine into american politics when he hired Paul Manafort to be his ukraine manager. Paul manafort spent most of the previous decade in ukraine. He lived in kiev. He was profoundly and closely identified with ukraines former president. Hes the president who was escaped from the country following mass demonstrations in 2014. He was the pro russian president. He was pro russian president who was profoundly corrupt, who altered the constitution and sought to take power, who enriched his family and his son, who built a villa with gold taps and all kinds of vulgar art objects. That was manaforts link to ukraine. When he brought manafort, he brought his methods and tactics and friends. This is the originen. This is why ukraine became part of u. S. Politics. Do you think theres more to uncover here . Because poroshenko was involved in some of the issues in fact he was the one being asked by bide t biden to fire the prosecutor. Remember that the former president fell after the protests and president poroshenko came to power after a free election. One of the things poroshenko began to do was investigate the previous president including the relationship with Paul Manafort. In 2018 those investigations were stopped. It has always been assumed whether there was pressure from the Trump Administration or not, that poroshenko stopped the investigation into manafort because he didnt want to irritate president trump. And now president zielinski seems to have succumbed to the pressure and has announced that he will investigate or they will review the investigation of the company that joe bidens son worked at. Yes. I mean, so one of the oddities of this story is the prosecutor who was who originally began investing in that company stopped the investigation, and stopped several other investigations. And joe biden when he was the white houses envoy to ukraine asked them, you know, was condemning that. In other words, he was condemning the prosecutor who had refused to investigate his sons company and many other companies. So the reopening of the investigation may be a gesture to the trump white house. It may be legitimately picking up the pieces. It doesnt necessarily tell us anything. But certainly the Ukrainian Government does now feel under huge pressure to carry out that investigation and to follow up on some of trumps conspiracy theories about the Mueller Investigation and manafort and ukraine. You tweeted recently people shouldnt talk about this really as a story of ukrainian corruption. Its really more about corruption in washington. Absolutely. Look, this is a story about a president abusing his office, abusing his privilege as the leader of u. S. Foreign policy to extract dirt from ukraine. This is a white house which in which the president is personally profiting off the fact that hes the president and his children are as well. The u. S. Banks and u. S. Linked tax havens are one of the things that have made it possible for people to steal money and launder money from places like ukraine. The United States is implicated in creating the kinds of corruption we see all over the world. And the fact that we dont stop it. We refuse to stop it indicates that our system is deeply a problem as well. Ann applebaum, always a pleasure. Next on gps, if you thought the power of labor unions died with jimmy of fa, think about. Ill tell you what the gm strike says about workers and wages in america when we come back. Depend® silhouette™ briefs feature maximum absorbency, beautiful colors and an improved fit for a sleek design and personal style. Lifes better when youre in it. Be there with depend®. With tough food, your dentures may slip and fall. Fixodent ultramax hold gives you the strongest hold ever to lock your dentures. So now you can eat tough food without worry. Fixodent and forget it. If you have moderate to thsevere rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. Ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. Humira can help stop the clock. 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Unfortunately, it cant do anything about that. Now that you know the truth. Are you in good hands . Now for our what in the world segment . And what the workers hear us saying and workers all over america are saying is enough is enough. Factory workers, politicians, and picket lines. The order worker strike at General Motors seems like a relic of american history. Its actually part of a new phenomenon. The surprising one in a country where the power of organized labor has been plummeting. Nearly 35 of American Workers were unionized in 1954. In 2018 that number was 10. 5 . One of the lowest rates among rich countries. One of the reasons for the decline is historical as the longtime labor reporter Steven Greenhouse documents in his book. Ronald reagans administration fired thousands of striking air tro traffic controllers. Why else has the power of unions declined . Globalization and technology have rewired the technology. The American Economy is now focussed on the Service Sector and unions tend to be less prevalent there, also among part time and contractors. And the ranks of those have swelled. All these trends translate to unimpressive wage growth for the middle class and dwindling benefits for fulltime workers. Perhaps thats why theres a new renewed vigor in strikes n a Nuclear Option for workers who have little to bargain with but their own labor. In 2018 almost half a million workers went on strike. The highest number in 32 years. What is different today greenhouse told gps is the organizers of some of the strikes arent simply advocating narrow selfinterest. Theyre bargaining for the common good. The massive teacher strikes last year over low pay and budget cuts that crippled public schools. Many in red states, west virginia, oklahoma and arizona. Places that might not have seemed favorable to unions but teachers salaries are low in those states. Parents got behind them and the teachers won modest raises. Over the past few years organizers helped stage strikes among fast food workers all over the country. Part of a campaign called the fight for 15. Now several states have enacted 15 minimum wage laws to be rolled out in the coming years. And its not just low wage workers who are organizing. Ed a jurngt professors, journalists are joining. And google employs more contract temps than fulltime workers. Last week there was a small but symbolic victory. About 80 contract workers in googles offices in pittsburgh voted to join a union. A rare feat for the tech sector which has been resistant to organized labor. The numbers are small but 64 of americans approve of unions today which is close to a 50year high. As its written in the ft, workers will only feel more insecure in the future as yields on Retirement Funds fall and the cost of Household ExpensesLike Pharmaceuticals rise. That means more segments of the middle class will be in trouble, and its argued that will lead to an eventual shift from Wealth Creation to wealth redistribution. All of this means a lot more people could start organizing. Next on gps, well go inside the u. S. china tad wrade war with singapores Prime Minister. But you dont feel good. With polycythemia vera, pv, symptoms can change so slowly over time you might not notice. But new or changing symptoms can mean your pv is changing. Lets change the way we see pv. You track and discuss blood counts with your doctor. But its just as vital to discuss changing symptoms as well. Take notice and take action. Discuss counts and symptoms with your doctor. Visit takeactionpv. Com performance comes in lots of flavors. Di dramatic orchestra ms with your doctor. Theres the ampedup, overtuned, feedingfrenzyof sheetmetalkind. And then theres performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result. Thats the kind lincolns about. groans hmph. food grunting menacingly when the food you love doesnt love you back, stay smooth and fight heartburn fast with tums smoothies. Tum tumtum tum tums with tums smoothies. Behr presents tough as walls. Thats some great paint. Thats some great paint. Behr ultra, ranked 1 in Customer Satisfaction with interior paints. Great paint, new low price. Starting at 29. 98. Exclusively at the home depot. Especially striking this week. President xi paraded tanks and troops down the avenue of eternal peace in beijing to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the peoples republic of china. There was showdowns in and around hong kong. One man who was surely watching both spectacles closely was my next guest, the Prime Minister of singapore, lee hsien loong. His city state keeps close ties with china. Singapore also has a very close relationship with the United States. Add in the fact that its the largest port in Southeast Asia, and youll see what the ongoing u. S. china trade war has put that city state in quite a tough spot. I started by asking him what he thought of the ongoing situation in hong kong. I feel very sorry for the situation which hong kong is in, because they are a city with a lot of talent. A lot of enterprise. A lot of potential. Theyre right on the doorstep of china, and china has really made been a backstop for them which enables them to grow and to overcome many economic rough spots. But at the same time they are part of china, and this is a big psychological change which is not easy for the population to get used to. And there are also issues within hong kong which are fundamental, social issues like housing. Fundamentally its a question of hope for the future, for the young people. And if these are not radically addressed, i think it is very difficult to overcome the problems. Are you surprised that the Chinese Government has not shut down the protests in hong kong using force . No, i dont think so. I think the Chinese Government i dont think the Chinese Government caused this to happen. I think that they are now confronted with this frog in their hands, and what do i do with it . Im comfortable. Its a problem, but if i do the wrong thing, i may make things a lot worse. I think theyre very conscious of that. They hope hong kong is sorted out, but the chief executive has a very difficult task. Singapore sits in a very uneasy situation. You are very close to china. Your economy is increasingly influenced by china, and yet, you have been a very staunch american ally. How difficult is this trade war between the United States and china for you . We see that as a problem for us, but, in fact, its a problem for the world. All of us have depended on stable u. S. China relations and increasingly close u. S. china cooperation, investments, trade, and other flows of talent and ideas. And the way things are going now, that benign trend is being disrupted. And perhaps even turned around. And i think thats bad for the world. You met with president trump. Did you convey to him the fear that at least i hear, that its seeding the field to china, and does he get that . I think i dont think america is withdrawing. I dont think that is a percepti perception, because america is engaging china actively. Its not a happy engagement right now, but its not pulling out from the field. I think what we would like to see in asia is the United States engaged actively, not only with china but with also the other Asian Countries in Southeast Asia and east asia, and south asia. And cooperatively constructively, to enable these countries to be to have economic links with china at the same time as they have economic links and other links with the United States. And if u. S. china relations are not stable and not amicable, its much harder for all of us to do that. We will be pressured very hard to choose sides, and it will be a very painful choice. For most countries, if they have to choose between america and china, what will they do . I think they will be very unhappy. All of your allies and many of your partners, japan, korea, philippines, australia, new zealand, all treaty allies, all of them have china as their biggest trading partner. So if you ask them to choose and say i, therefore, must cut off my links with my biggest trading partner, i think you will put them in a very difficult position. Singapo singapore, were not an ally. Were a close partner of the United States, but we also have our big e trading links with china. Bigger than with the United States. What do you think the world of technology is going to look like if the United States continues on the path the Trump Administration is, which is banning huawei, fearing that theres going to be the Chinese Technology will have within it a kind of espionage component . Will you end up with a bipolar world of two Technology Systems . It was heading in that direction. I think if you take this attitude, it cannot stop with huawei, because its basically you dont trust them. And you have reason to doubt whether everything can be taken at face value. By the same token, they are unable to trust you. And they will ask why do we allow your operating systems, your chips, your technology, to rule our economy. Or and we become hostage to you. So if you go in this way, you must end up bifurcated on across a wide range of things in terms of technology, in terms of systems, and the how difficult is it for you to navigate, because presumably youll be asked to choose. Youll have to choose an American Technology supply chain or a chinese supply chain. And theyre asking their partners around the world not to choose the chinese systems. And what is the response . Some partners have agreed to cooperate with the americans. Others have concluded that this is a very big ask. Most have said no, right . Well, they havent quite put it like that. Prime minister, a pleasure to have you on. Thank you. And we will be right back. Get the straps carl tripleaction fights congestion, pressure, and pain. Mucinex sinusmax. Aaddiction. How juuline hooked kids and ignited an Public Health crisis. Other news outlets report juul took 12. 8 billion from big tobacco. Markets ecigarettes with kid friendly flavors and uses nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use ecigarettes. Juul is following big tobaccos playbook. And now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn ecigarette protections. Vote no on juul. No on big tobacco. No on prop c. Here, hello starts with hi mple. How can i help . A data plan for everyone. Everyone . Everyone. Lets send to everyone [ camera clicking ] wifi up there . Ahhh. Sure, why not . Howd he get out . a camera might figure it out. That was easy glad i could help. At xfinity, were here to make life simple. Easy. Awesome. So come ask, shop, discover at your xfinity store today. As tens of thousands of hong kongers continue to protest this week, they were confronted with water cannons, tear gas, and for the first time the use of lethal force. The throngs are angry with the local government in hong kong and with the mainland Chinese Government. A news piece highlights how the rest of the world views china. It brings to my question, which country views china the least favorably . The United States, nigeria, russia or japan. Stay tuned and well tell you the correct answer. My book of the week is dani Daniel Markovits the meritocracy trap. He says its become a system with a sense of exclusion and isolation for those on the outside. This book will make you think hard. The answer to my gps challenge this week is d, japan, where 85 of those seizure vurveyed by th Research Center have an unfavorable view of china. While the two countries have an animosity, they were on their way to mending fences. The two economies have pushed for a new era of friendship, one thats become more important as china fights its trade war with the United States. But the japanese public is wary, in fact, inside the region, china is viewed as very low among those surveyed. China is viewed negatively, especially among young people, according to pugh. The obvious recession can be seen on the streets of hong kong. Thank you for joining my show this week. I will see you next week. Saturdays happen. Pain happens. Aleve it. Aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. Wayfairs got your perfect mattress. Whether youre looking for a topbrand at a great price. Ready to upgrade. Moving in. Moving on up. Or making big moves. Deliveries ship free and come with a 100night free trial. No matter your budget. Or your sleep style. We have quality options for everyone. So search and shop. Save and snooze. And rest easy, knowing that weve got your back. Literally. 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